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253 comments on DrumBeat: June 8, 2008
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253 comments on DrumBeat: June 8, 2008
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GAIA Host Collective
Do ordinary people connect the changing climate with pollution from wealthier nations? That is, do they blame us? Or are they so eager to join us they don't care what happens to their traditional way of life?
Mostly the latter, at least the middle-class people. I haven't really talked to poor people, as they don't speak any language other than Mongolian, and I haven't quite mastered that yet. And people are not well informed: of all the people I have talked to, only a US-educated banker was knowledgeable and duly worried about climate change. Generally people just don't know why the climate is changing.
Hi Jussi--As with everyone else reporting from elsewhere on the planet, I very much value yours, too, as we all need as much intell on events as possible to supplement what isn't provided by the corporate propaganda system.
Leanan, did you mean "do ordinary people blame every weather event on galactic climate change?"
I think the answer depends on if the "ordinary people" are ignorant, and watch too much television. Most "non-ordinary people" would recognize the silliness of trying to blame climate change for any single storm event.
The Galactic Climate Changers are very much like our ancestors who blamed their angry godz for unwelcome weather. I wonder which group was more ignorant - our ancestors or the ALGorians of today?
Eh? She specifically asked if the Mongolians blamed climate change on 1st world polluters. Since 1st world polluters are the main cause of climate change, that is a sensible question. There was nothing in her post about any "single storm event".
I would expect that the Mongolians don't watch a lot of American TV, so they are spared silly commentators blaming every heat wave on global warming. They are also spared silly commentators archly asking, "if there is global warming, why is it so cold today?" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). And they are spared the endless parade of AGW deniers that are trotted out to provide "balance". In short, they are probably ideally situated to understand the real causes of climate change.
You're right shargash, Leanan was talking about climate change in general, not the specific "freak storm" that the original poster began his post with.
You do understand my point though as you describe it perfectly in your second paragraph. But I disagree with your last sentence. I bet most mongolians do not understand the concept of climate change or connect the vagaries of weather to climate change. They more likely invoke some god.
This is based on....? Their 98.7% literacy rate?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/mg.html
Two posts, two insulting posts.
You most likely invoke some seer to devine your data.
Sheesh....
Their literacy rate is not relevant. Look at the rest of the literate world and notice it is just as ignorant when it comes to galactic climate change. And pointing out this ignorance is not an insult. The constant media-hyped idiocy of AGW is the real insult (as well as a horrific distraction from REAL problems like peak oil).
"Global Warming/Climate Change" is just the modern equivalent of "Thor," godz of thunder, for the majority of "literate" but ignorant peoples around the world.
We do not understand the climate system well enough to make short or long term predictions with any confidence. But that doesn't stop the "Literate Public" from blaming weather fluctuations and freak storms on the AGW God.
The scientific conclusions are in.
There is a greater than 90% chance that the observed warming is primarily caused by human activity
That is the CONSERVATIVE and CONSENSUS conclusions of the best scientific societies in the world.
A mere 30% probability will make Climate Change a more important issue for the long term good of humanity than Peak Oil.
Alan
Alan, I don't doubt human activity has been and will continue to alter the climate - just as past megafauna altered their climate.
What gets tiresome is the blaming any current weather events or weather patterns on AGW, as well as the assinine predictions made for future changes in climate - we do not understand the climate system well enough to make any reliable predictions.
Good examples of assinine predictions would include "a mere 30% probabilility will make climate change a more important issue for the long term..." Why did you pick "30%" as your "probability" ??? As long as you are pulling numbers out of a hat, why not pick 26.5%% or 92% for something you cannot possibly measure anyway (the same for your "90% chance" in the bold sentence)?
As for the long term, I suspect that the survivors of our Oil-induced population overshoot will adjust to the climate they encounter - just like our ancestors did for the past 100,000+ years.
I really look forward to seeing how concerned people are about climate change over the next decade as oil depletion really starts kicking our ass. Climate change is a worry for the luxuriously wealthy . And that is going to be a fast-dying breed. Lets ask the masses how much they care about climate change when they are freezing or starving because of the collapse of our oil-based civilization.
You are the one with the asinine analysis, not I.
The "more than 90%" not "90%" (it was dropped from a higher % to get a consensus of all responsible scientific societies).
The 30% figure is a reasonable judgment call based upon the precautionary principal. If there is a 30% chance that I will develop a certain type of cancer, it is valid to get screened for that cancer every 4 to 6 months. The same may be true if there is only a 20% chance etc.
Climate Change = Famine and MASSIVE population movements. Since it is human caused it will happen MUCH faster (decades instead of millennium perhaps). What we can adapt to in 1,000 years is more difficult to adapt to in 80 years.
Peak Oil is primarily a worry for Suburban Americans and poor Third Worlders. Most other societies can adapt more easily to reduced oil use. Not so for Climate Change.
Alan
So your "more than 90%" estimate was based on political consenses of "responsible" scientific societies - and how exactly did they pretend to derive such a precise number about a system they understand so poorly?
And the "30% is a reasonable judgment call" ... based on what? "Reasonable" to whom - those who want to invoke an imaginary "precautionary principle" based on some imaginary probability?
Peak oil is a worry for the entire civilization - rich and poor and all those in the middle. Your opinion that we can "adapt more easily to reduced oil use" is an opinion you may hold dearly (and may repeat over and over in your prayers) but is certainly not based on any reality.
As for your "cc =Famine and MASSIVE population movements" - famine, yes, for some in some places at some unknown point in the future over some time frame we could only make wild guesses at. Peak oil will have the same effect starting now.
And to say "since CC is human caused it will happen MUCH faster"... again, pulling numbers out of a hat (although here you at least stuck with "MUCH faster" and avoided pulling some actual, funny number out of a hat).
Thor or Algorian Hansen, pick your god and shake your fist at his next thunderstorm. Enjoy.
As bad as Peak oil is, Climate Change is the more important, the longer lasting and more intractable issue. You only focus on the immediacy, which is profoundly wrong. And I can see that you have drunk the neo-con/Exxon-Mobil Kool-aid.
*ANY* steps towards Peak Oil mitigation should also help, and not hurt, Climate Change. Bicycling helps both, walkable neighborhoods help both, Urban Rail helps both, electrified railroads help both, wind Farms coupled with HV DC lines and pumped storage help both.
Our children and grandchildren will be better off if we did without CTL, tar sands and oil shale. Even if we have to eat tortillas with 42 F heat in the winter instead of making the corn into ethanol, that is the BETTER choice for those that look beyond the fiscal year.
Alan
I believe this is incorrect. It was dropped due to political interference, not scientific uncertainty or argument. It was news at the time that the final report had, yet again, been watered down once it went to the broader commitee... where the politicos held sway.
Here's one: Scientists, governments clash over warming report
More interference
Etc.
Cheers
Mongolians are going to be more in tune with climate change because of their traditional lifestyles.
In a nomadic herding culture climate is literally a matter of life and death, and oral traditions will have been handed down for generations about hard times which caused great suffering.
In fact at some times in the past drought is supposed to have differentially killed those cultures heavily dependent on the horse, whilst favouring those who were more orientated to cattle as they have more efficient digestive systems.
Since the horse is good for warfare, it was usually the dominant culture that missed out, leading to change in the rulership of the steppes and the famous mass migrations and invasions.
Just as traditional cultures in the Indian ocean knew exactly what to do when the Tsunami came, and ran to high ground, the Mongolian herdsman will be in tune with his environment to an extent we can barely imagine.
Even his urban compatriot came from the land recently enough to understand these things.
I hear and agree with what you are saying here davemart.
The keys in your post, in my mind at least, are your references to "hard times which caused great suffering" in the past, the "past droughts," and the resulting changes in the human societies that occurred then.
These climate phenomena have been with us forever. Why now blame every "freak storm" on AlGorian Hansen, the two-headed God of Climate ???
Climate change is interesting and we should continue to monitor and study it for as long as we can afford to do so.
But don't be surprized if in the near future people ignore the blather about climate change, and instead resort to using nuclear, COAL and <*>gasp<*> plain old dirty, carbon-spewing fire pits and places to keep warm and eat, etc.
Change in climate will always have it's most profound effects on marginal environments like the Mongolian steppe or the Australian outback.
Although it is true that individual weather events should not be directly attributed to Global warming as the popular press is fond of doing, this in no way affects the basic arguments and the fact that this is popularly misrepresented will not stop climate change.
With growing shortages the emphasis is indeed likely to shift, but it is entirely possible that this may have grave consequences.
You seem to think that I was mainly talking about "freak storms". Have a look at the links I posted. This country is so fu**ed because of climate change, I would find it offensive for you to deny this if I didn't know your other rather unsophisticated views.
We might not understand the climate sstem well enough to make long term predictions with any confidence but I see no lack of confidence by or in tv weather forecasts. As a matter of fact, here in the Caribbean we rather depend on them to let us know when hurricanes are coming, Added to that, fairly detailed recording of rainfall, wind and temperature data has been going on in the US for over a century and less structured but nonetheless reliable records of weather data are available for some locations going much further back in time. It would seem to me that we are witnessing the beginnings of a change in weather patterns that is unprecedented in human history.
Why does that matter? We are the only species on the planet with the amount of data that we have (recorded history). We are the only species that can analyze this data and come up with formulas that give us some ability to predict what will happen in certain situations, with some amount of accuracy. We are probably the species with the greatest ability to determine our future. (I'd bet we are the only species that makes 5 year, 10 year and lifetime plans!)
So, if you want to continue living like the less intelligent species on the planet and ignore the warning signs that the climate is sending us, go right ahead. I guess the question asked by Bob Shaw in his signature is relevant.
Are humans smarter than yeast?
Alan from the islands
Peak oil is here and now. We understand it's ramifications and our very few options of dealing with it Now. We do not have the time, resources or public attention span to waste on WAGs about future climate conditions.
Climate Change is an amorphous bogeyman that built on WAGs. It is more akin to the fairy tales our ancestors told their children to keep them out of harms way.
Galactic Climate Change is a HORRIBLE distraction for the public at this point in time that breeds complacency. The public, like the Fraud Al Gore, does nothing more than make a few cosmetic changes (e.g. light bulbs) for appearences sake and go to a few "protests" because some celebrity fraud will be there. They might vote for "green" politicians, but that is nothing more than a token and causes nothing but more political boondoggles (please spare us the "protocols" that all the nations ignore anyway).
Climate change Politics interfere with Peak Oil preparation.
Many of the "coping mechanisms" for peak oil (coal, nuclear, wood etc) will conflict with the wishes of the Algorian Hansen worshipers, causing us to waste more precious time and resources. Too bad.
The fact is eating and staying warm during the Energy Descent will take precidence over some imaginary projections about future climate change. Worrying about AGW/CC is a luxury we can no longer afford.
I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I suppose you just don't understand science anymore, or alternatively you just choose to ignore it. Well, have a great time!
Friend, I am not going to get into this with you beyond this post. Even the people who created the "view" you hold have backed off of it.
FACT: Virtually all of the "science" for anti-AGW was funded and supported by Exxon witha plan taken from the Big Tobacco playbook. (This is fact, not heresay.) Period.
FACT: Almost none of the "science" was actually science. Virtually all of it was review of others' research with a bent towards interpreting to fit their agenda. What little true science has been undertaken has been refuted by additional science.
FACT: The other great scumbag in this is the Bush Administration, which knowingly and intentionally gutted, suppressed and misrepresented it's own research findings.
FACT: There is virtually no other source for the anti-AGW stance than Exxon and the Dumbya administration and BOTH have (mostly) disavowed that stance. The Dumbya administration has 100%.
FACT: You are either a shill, brainwashed by the above, or just not able to understand basic science.
Consider yourself lucky I am not an admin on this site, for I would ban you faster than you could read this sentence. To stifle free speech? No. Lines must be drawn. You cannot support your stance with science, so you should not be allowed to post. I believe that fits within the guidelines of the site. And, because you are dangerous to the continued existence of mankind on this planet.
Bye.
Their literacy is not important? That's an ignorant statement. You are aware that global surveys on the issue found only two places in the world where the majority of citizens doubted AGW? Guess where.
Did you say the US and Britain?
Correct!
So the "superstitious" Mongolians can't think, but only two of the supposedly most advanced nations on Earth allow themselves to be brainwashed by PROVEN liars...
Brilliant.