I asked last night at the bottom of the last drumbeat, but I'd like to ask again here.

Could someone please show me some sort of graph showing demand vs. production? Whether that be in % moves, or what. Whatever makes sense, but we always see all these graphs of price and supply which sort of imply demand, but never a real trend of demand itself.

Thanks

Chrisale, it is not that simple. Demand is not something you can really plot. You can plot how much oil is produced, or consumed by certain nations, but you cannot plot how much oil they want. Demand depends, to a large extent, on price. If the price is very high then fewer people can afford it therefore demand drops. However if the price of oil is very cheap then there is a high demand for that very cheap oil. People do more driving, boating, flying and other things if they can easily afford to do so. But when the price of all those things gets too high, they cut back, decreasing demand.

So no, there is no such thing as a graph showing demand vs. production. You can however show production vs. consumption. And the difference shows up in lesser or greater inventories. And when inventories get too high, the price drops, increasing demand and vise versa.

Ron Patterson

Chrisale, at any market clearing price supply and demand are equal.

If you look at the historical data you will see world supply/demand increase by around 2% a year, so that is why the IEA says we need 2% more each year for BAU.

Since we haven't had anything like 2% a year growth in supply for around 4 years now, either the IEA is wrong or somebody somewhere in the world doesn't have BAU demand - most likely a bit of both.

All you can be sure of is the price you have to pay for fossil fuel - that seems to suggest somebody, somewhere, is being priced out of the market - most likely a poor guy, in a poor country, just using a small amount of fuel to try to feed his family - actually quite a lot of poor (and hungry?) guys if the demand destroyed is now ~8% of current usage.

Demand is not something you can really plot. You can plot how much oil is produced, or consumed by certain nations, but you cannot plot how much oil they want.

Darwinian, it's helpful to see this stated so succinctly. It bears repeating, often, as we discuss oil production.

Agreed. We tend to talk about demand as though it can increase beyond supply. The terminology that we really need to be using is that marginal demand elasticity is decreasing or increasing. That's a bit more complicated, but is a much more accurate way of conveying what is generally meant when one says "demand is increasing above supply."

According to the EIA, U.S. gasoline demand is down 1.8% from a year ago, that is from their products supplied column. That demand measurement is the amount of gasoline actually purchased. This runs contrary to the theory that world demand is increasing two percent per year. At $70 a barrel oil demand might increase 2%, but not at $130 a barrel. Gasoline demand is finite and elastic. Inelastic demand would not be possible with the finite data available.

Darwinian -

I'm glad you put it that way.

I have always had a bit of a hangup with the way that economists use the word, 'demand', almost as if it were a tangible phyiscal thing rather than an abstraction.

To say that, by definition, supply always equals demand strikes me as a form of circular reasoning and produces a definition of 'demand' that to me is not very helpful.

While it may not be correct with respect to economic dogma, there is a far more common usage of the word demand that I think conveys a lot more of what is actually taking place.

If say your household has historically used 1,000 gallons of gasoline per year for mostly utilitarian purposes, such as commuting to work and shopping, I think that in a loose rather than a purely technical economic sense it is legitimate to say that your household demand for gasoline is 1,000 gal/year.
Now if the price of gasoline increases ten-fold and you can no longer afford to drive, your demand for gasoline, as I am using the term, has not really gone down, it's just that you are no longer financially able to fulfill that demand.

So, I guess I can't seem to reconcile the economist's narrow definition of demand from the notion of normal wants and needs. Maybe a there's a better term than 'demand' for what I am talking about.

Anyway, it is always good to remind oneself of what is a tangible physical thing and what is an abstraction. As an example, the other day I got into an argument with a non-technical person when I stated that a horsepower is not a physical thing but rather an abstraction and that you cannot directly measure horsepower. I argued that you can measure the torque put out by an engine's shaft, and you can measure how fast it's rotating, and you can then mulitply those two numbers together to come up with another number that we call horsepower, but you cannot actually measure horsepower directly. I didn't get very far in getting this notion across and gave up trying.

I think the reason that laypeople (such as myself) get confused by this is that economists focus (exclusively???) on "the marketplace".

Remember the Simon-Erlich Wager? The bet was whether some commodities would be higher or lower in price ten years hence. If laymen know one thing about economics, it is "supply and demand". Erlich is a biologist, not an economist. He knew that the supply (of high-quality ores in the ground) would be lower after being produced for 10 years, and that demand (given increasing population and industrialization) would be higher, thus a higher price. He lost all the bets because the supply IN THE MARKETPLACE was greater (relative to demand) over that period.

I think we have the analogous disconnect with regards to "demand". Economists talk about demand IN THE MARKETPLACE, from people who have money to buy (at some particular price). People who have needs and wants, but no money to satisfy those needs and wants, are not part of the marketplace, and therefore do not exist. Economists have set themselves up as the ones who get to define what "demand" means, and the rest of us are wrong for using the word any other way.

Peak Oil folks are breaking the economic rules by talking about shortfalls of supply (to the marketplace) based on physical limits rather than just mis-allocations of capital or "interference" by government regulation. Doomers are breaking the rules by talking about the needs and wants for commodities by people who have been priced out of the market (their "demand" has been "destroyed").

GreenMan -

Well put!

I think the key thing in what you said is that people priced out of the market essentially become invisible to the market, though they will hardly be invisible with regard to the problems they can and surely will create.

In general, I think that classical economics is going to prove to be a very poor means of explaining all the scary things that are about to take place. Yes indeed, the rules, not only in economics, but in many other areas are going to be sorely tested, and in many cases broken.

OK, thank you all for your responses I'm sorry I couldn't respond earlier.

I understand the notion that demand must always equal supply. So perhaps I need to ask the question another way.

Do we know precisely how much demand has been "destroyed". Is there a measure, perhaps of how much oil a certain amount of GPD consumes?

I want to know if and just how much demand is being pinched by supply. There must be a way to measure that, and no, googling has not produced anything satisfactory for me.

Surely when the IEA and EIA use some sort of GDP numbers when they estimate their demand figures for the future.

It's just something that bugs me. We have all this hard data on supply and production but when it comes to how much oil people actually *want* it becomes very... nebulous.

Hello chrisale--The term you want to investigate is Oil Intensity. Stuart Staniford wrote this piece about the subject. I suggest you also peruse this google search result set and feel free to modify the search keywords to find other items.

As for what bugs you, people will take as much oil as they can get if free. A way to compare is to look at percapita oil use and a country's fuel price average during that amount of usage, and don't forget to include the country's percapita income. The data's out there, but you'll need to do the search this time.

Demand = Supply

The variable here is price, the demand is simply how many people are willing buy oil at that price, otherwise the concept is meaningless. You could break supply into two groups, say supply from new production and supply from inventories, and say what portion of demand is being met by each portion of supply I suppose. But demand cannot in the economic definition exceed supply.

Of course more people might want to use some oil, but will not or cannot pay the price. Hence they are no longer part of the demand as they're not actually using any oil, they can't be, they haven't paid for it!

Of course more people might want to use some oil, but will not or cannot pay the price. ...

No, no, they don't really want that oil.

Remember Economics Joke No 1 on 'revealed preference':

Two economists walked past a Porsche showroom. One of them pointed at a shiny car in the window and said, "I want that." "Obviously not," the other replied.

"Demand = Supply"

i propose: demand = supply - net inventory

and,
net inventory = crude oil + refined products - refinery gain

correction:
make that demand = supply - change in net inventory

I suspect you mean demand = production +/- change in net inventory.

"I suspect you mean demand = production +/- change in net inventory."

supply = production

this would assume that tanker inventory + pipeline inventory is constant. but hell, changes in the amount of oil in transit could blow any other inventories out of the water(pun intended).

supply = production +/- change in net in transit +/- change in net in pipeline +/- change in net inventory?

Chrisale--You could have done a google search and gotten this list of results and then sifted through them for the graphs you seek.

Well no he could not have found the graphs he seeks with that list. The graphs he asked for simply do not exist so he could google until the cows come home and still would not have found a graph of supply verses demand.

Ron--The second link on that list is from ASPO-USA, and its second graph is a comparison of OECD versus World DEMAND. Whetehr or not it's one of the graphs he seeks only HE would know, not you nor I.

Karlof1, what that chart represents is OECD consumption. The EIA labels it demand simply because that is the amount of oil they used. World DEMAND can be found here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pL1ZqwKbkFcc9Pn1LZbJRCA&hl=en

And world oil PRODUCTION can be found here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pL1ZqwKbkFcdIkyXIxZFtJQ&hl=en

All this is all liquids.

The difference between the two is simply production plus or minus change in inventories. However that was not the question as I took it. The question concerned demand plotted with supply. That is the oil demanded verses the oil produced. Demand always equals production!

Ron Patterson

Caption next to second graph is ASPO-USA link reads: "Demand growth outside the OECD has accelerated in the oil producing and developing economies (graph left)." The caption for the graph beneath it reads: "A second graph (left) shows the historical oil demand for the U.S., Europe and Japan from 1990 through 2006."

We are quibbling about semantics here. Chrisale made a request he could have fulfilled him/herself by using the same search terms I did. I provided that result. Until this person makes a response, we will not know what was actually hoped for outside of the request's verbiage. We have all seen EIA and IEA demand projection graphs, or what can be termed the needed future level of production to satisfy anticpated demand.

Enough.

I suggest we move on to trying to determine how much oil production consists of light-sweet and how much heavy and heavy-sour, so we can see if light-sweet has indeed peaked.

BTW, the EIA does not keep records on the quality of crude oils in inventory. So, we don't know what percentage of inventories are light/sweet versus heavy/sour. Of course, with only two days supply in excess of MOL, it may not matter a whole lot.

Thanks. I knew that from searching EIA for such data. Somehow Collin Campbell is able to get it in order to incorporate it into his Peak Oil Model. For example, 2.8Mbpd is shown as the 2006 annual rate for Heavy etc. http://www.energiekrise.de/e/aspo_news/aspo/Newsletter080.pdf

With Chavez saying that Venezuela has 300+ Bbls of recoverable oil from an estimated 1.2 Trillion in the Orinoco Belt, I think it paramount that we get a better handle on this resource, aside from the Canadian tar sands, which have gotten a lot of exposure. An excerpt:

"Of all the unconventional sources of oil, the one that gets the least attention ... but in my opinion is the most economic is the Orinoco," said Robert Skinner of the Oxford Institute for Energy Studies.

"They've demonstrated that they can produce this stuff at very low cost," he said, expaining that producing a barrel of Venezuelan synthetic crude can cost US$16 (12.50 euros) a barrel, compared to a barrel from Canadian tar sands that can go as high as US$30 (23 euros). Orinoco crude can be produced economically as long as the oil price stays above US$22 (17 euros) a barrel, he said.

It should be noted that the recoverable reserves figure predates Chavez, as noted by this item, http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntl85039.htm

I have always seen the Orinoco bitumen/asphalt as being the premier unconventional oil resource.

Easier and cheaper to extract than Canadian tar sands.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Respectively, I've done as much research as I thought I could before asking the question... but the results always seem to be the same. There are lots of projections of future demand but there never seems to be a tracking of demand that has gone unsatisfied, or that remains unsatisfied. The purely economic definition of supply and demand just doesn't satisfy me, maybe I just need to get over it. :)

How do you propose to track something lacking data? If I don't buy something, there's no record of a purchase, but also no record of me wanting, or not wanting, to buy that item. The only way such data would occur is through a poll. This also relates to the concept of utility. I may really want to buy a second mochajava, but for some reason don't. Is it because I don't have the money, or for some other reason?

One way demand destruction can be tracked is by looking at poor countries unable to purchase fuel and oil and measure the drop in gdp relative to the drop in fuel and oil use. Of course, it is possible that GDP will rise instead of fall. Quality of life might also improve instead of decline, as is assumed.

Could someone please show me some sort of graph showing demand vs. production? Whether that be in % moves, or what. Whatever makes sense, but we always see all these graphs of price and supply which sort of imply demand, but never a real trend of demand itself.

I believe economists make a distinction between "demand" and "product delivered" and, obviously, "demand" in this context would have to be an estimate based on whatever formulae these guys use.

The best graph and explanation I've seen is from The Age of Aquarius at the ASPO site.

Supply, Demand and Price to 2012 - click to enlarge

For more info, please see section 1 of http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3623

Historically, supply is not exactly equal to demand due to inventory changes.