119 comments on Updated Corn Ethanol Economics
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119 comments on Updated Corn Ethanol Economics
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What a gem. I learn so much on this site everyday!!
The "Science" article mentioned the net EROEI negative of gasoline due to the fact that ethanol is a direct competitor for that fuel. Ethanol is a net gain because it derives a portion of its energy from the sun.
Ethanol is a net gain because it derives a portion of its energy from the sun.
Where do you think oil got its energy from? Magic pixie dust?
Ah, Robert, but the problem is an oil shortage, after all, isn't it? Without replacements, where are we?
And I wasn't comparing ethanol in this case to oil, but to gasoline -- an oil product. Though some here would like to claim that ethanol is a petroleum product which, at 30 times less petroleum inputs than gasoline, it clearly is not.
As for magic pixie dust, if you can show me where to buy some on the commodities and futures market, I'd be happy to speculate :)
Ah, Robert, but the problem is an oil shortage, after all, isn't it? Without replacements, where are we?
That is a completely different question.
Though some here would like to claim that ethanol is a petroleum product which, at 30 times less petroleum inputs than gasoline, it clearly is not.
It is a fossil fuel product, as the inputs are mainly natural gas for the process and coal for electricity. Some diesel and oil for fuel, pesticides, etc. And the processing of ethanol consumes a lot more fossil fuels than the processing of oil. This makes sense if you think about it. One is in a pool underground. You stick in a bit straw and suck out a water insoluble liquid, which you then process. For ethanol, you expend a lot of energy producing the corn, and then you produce a water soluble product that takes a lot of energy to get the water out.
So you completely ignore Berkley scientists who analyzed petroleum imputs and found it to be 30 times less for ethanol than gasoline? If gasoline is the direct product in question, why not compare ethanol to gasoline and not oil? Ethanol can't be used as oil is used. But ethanol can be used to replace one oil product -- ie gasoline.
In any case, as I said before, in the case of ethanol a large portion of the energy imputs come from the sun.
Those scientists conflated conversion efficiency with harvesting efficiency (EROI). And they used narrow boundaries. Robert (and others) have explained this about this at least 20 times on this site.
The focus on the Liebigs input du jour is the problem. Water, food, soil, natural gas, coal, etc. and other limiting inputs are ignored.
So you completely ignore Berkley scientists who analyzed petroleum imputs and found it to be 30 times less for ethanol than gasoline?
Appeals to authority don't impress me. Or can I merely appeal to Pimentel's analysis in response?
As I said above, the major input into ethanol is natural gas. Natural gas is not petroleum, but it is a fossil fuel. I clearly addressed that, and ignored nothing.
If gasoline is the direct product in question, why not compare ethanol to gasoline and not oil?
Because when you process oil you get other products like diesel and jet fuel. It is easy to compare energy/water/etc. usage per barrel of oil, but more difficult to allocate per gallon of gasoline - since various crudes and refinery configurations will produce differing amounts of gasoline. And didn't you just write that ethanol "displaces more than 6 percent of US daily oil imports"?
In any case, as I said before, in the case of ethanol a large portion of the energy imputs come from the sun.
That's also where gasoline gets the vast majority of its inputs. Gasoline is ancient sunshine, with some processing. The energy you spend in processing the gasoline will yield about 10 times what you consumed.
"That is a completely different question."
Not at all. It is the crux of the matter.