I read Singularity a couple of years ago. Regardless of what one might think about Kurzweil's vision of the future, the book is mind-blowing. However, if you look at predictions that he has made, you can see that the timeline is sliding. Things are happening as quickly as he envisions. And he really didn't treat energy as a concern in the book at all, except to say that things are becoming more and more efficient. He essentially blew off any energy worries - and I think that is his fatal blind spot.

to the point of absurdity. the rate new gizmos appear is not a increase in ability in the sense of manipulating core forces in the universe

eg: Fusion... we're all still waiting

Boris
London

Couple of other things. First, above I meant "Things are not happening as quickly as he envisions." This is especially striking if you read some of his earlier books.

The other thing is that Kurzweil keeps claiming that due to all of his medical monitoring and the supplements he takes, he has the body of a 40-year old. You have to wonder then why he looks like a 60-year old.

Finally, the thing that struck me as absurd in the book was that he was implying that our energy demands were going down due to increased efficiencies, when the observation is just the opposite: Demand for energy is climbing.

A capitalist economy will use up whatever energy is cheaply accessible.
But, the essential point is that energy has become a smaller part of GDP than it was 30 years ago, and that means increased efficiency has indeed occurred.
Increased efficiency doesn't lead to less energy use, it leads to greater wealth for the same energy use. You know the old saying, waste not want not.
The market is not going to reduce energy use until it's forced to by supply and demand imbalances.
If you want efficiency increases to result in actual lower energy use, you'll need government intervention.

Increased efficiency doesn't lead to less energy use, it leads to greater wealth for the same energy use.

This old economist's saw seems true over time, but in the short-term (the next critical 5 - 10 years) increased efficiency will likely be used to keep energy expenditures down, since the question isn't saving money because of efficiency/conservation, but rather losing less money because of rising energy/resource prices. So the consumer's goal is to lose less. This is an important psychological difference (which I might have explained in an unclear way). As energy & resource prices rise many activities don't make economic sense like they once did. Demand destruction occurs, corrects the market increase until a later day when it comes back... But demand destruction isn't happening in China because of the subsidies there, or in the Middle East for the same reasons.

"Supply and demand imbalances" aren't per se the reason for demand destruction is, as we see in the case of subsidies. It's price, especially price's cumulative effects over time, which destroy demand. Again the difference is important when you consider subsidies.

Robert,

To be fair, though things are not happening as fast as Kurzweil said and as you pointed out energy is his blind spot, we are now for the first time in history able to build infrastructure that is capable of powering our civilization from renewables.

That we haven't done so (yet) and that since the members of our civilization are not all rowing in the same direction we may not is a different question.

Also: OK so he does look 60 (though I'd have said more like 50) he looks like he's in great shape for his age. Looking at the office where I'm currently working, there are plenty of people in their late 40s in worse shape than Ray.

we are now for the first time in history able to build infrastructure that is capable of powering our civilization from renewables.

That we haven't done so (yet) and that since the members of our civilization are not all rowing in the same direction we may not is a different question.

It's no more a different question than the "above-ground" factors are a different question from the geology. We won't do it because we are not capable as a species. It will, however, indeed happen - that "we" power civilization from renewables. Whatever civilization it is, though, it won't be "ours" and "we" will be a different fork of the ape tree. The other side of this singularity we will become a different species.

I'm concerned that even that expresses too much unfounded hope.

cfm in Gray, ME, parking cars at the End of the Universe.

Following the link on Singularity you come to the Wiki on Kardashev Civilization classifications.

I think it’s about time to start TheSnakeOilDrum.com since, with respect to our Earth-Resource Mastery ( yikes ! ) by 2040 we should be at 0.7Kards. Whew, what a relief! Finally we can stop fretting about regular old pre-Singularity liquid-fuels like oil.

* Presumably a Technological Singularity would lead to a rapid development of a Kardashev Type I civilisation where a Kardashev Type I civilization has achieved mastery of the resources of its home planet, Type II of its planetary system, and Type III of its galaxy.[2] Given the fact that we currently will be 0.7 on the Kardashev scale by 2040, a technological singularity between now and then would push us rapidly over that limit.*

I would think Fermi's Paradox would come into force especially on the a priori possibility of a Singularity: if it can happen at all, why wouldn't galactic civilization(s) where it already has be here?

FWIW, Kurzweil does address the Fermi paradox by saying that "well, since a post-singularity civilisation would be easily visible to our current SETI efforts, there cannot be any civilisations which have reached a singularity at any point where electromagnetic waves from them would have reached us by now". I'm not convinced by this argument but it's not something he hasn't thought about.

Sorry guy we gave up on electromagnetics about the time your planet was just a hot rock. We use things like Twerp now, you know we use instantaneous telepathy to take over some twerp like this Crystal Radio and have his fingers do the talking. Greetings to you, Oh brain dead ones, about to die off!

but where is all the in between guys who are not quite at singularity yet? for this sublime alien thing to be true either they all jump to this sublime position OR they are very very very few.... perhaps none!

we should see a spectrum of guys out there on different parts of this curve?

Boris
London

if it can happen at all, why wouldn't galactic civilization(s) where it already has be here?

Yet, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

The sentiment of your quote is certainly comforting (to those with a similar view of the Singularity, which I share), but it does not stand well on it's own (despite Fermi's brilliance).

This is a typically Oedipal evaluation of an Interplanetary species' presence. If WE, mighty mighty WE can't "detect" so-called intelligent life in the universe, certainly it must not exist. If NASA and MIT and SETI and the US Gubmint have officially pronounced that ET is not here, has never been here nor has ever been detected, then surely ET remains entirely hypothetical.

An _objective_ evaluation of HARD evidence, e.a., what are dismissively referred to as "UFO sightings", radar returns, photographic evidence, trace evidence, multi-person accounts and thousands of documented military intercepts and interactions with "phenomena" you must come to the conclusion that ET is here, that ET is doing as he pleases without our consultation or consent, and apparently, without our knowledge. All things that I would personally characterize as ample evidence of _advanced_ technological superiority. But that's just me.

I would expect hearty chuckles and snorts and derisive laughter from the hardcore speculator-energy crowd, but it's completely irrelevant.

One of the effects of the Singularity that I use as a personal measure of Change is the rate of disintegration of institutions. Institutions are bureaucratic entities designed to centralize and control the implementation of Process, but when you reach a point when Process itself assumes, let's call it "velocity", Process escapes institutional control and at some point the institutions become irrelevant. Or, more simply put, the institutions fail.

The ET phenomenon is a perfect example of a complete failure of our institutions across the board. Confronted with evidence of a phenomenon that exceeds our technological/creative/institutional limits to understand and/or interpret. e.a., _control_, our reaction is entirely predictable. We simply dismiss it.

So across mainstream, whenever this issue is brought up, it comes down to discussing SETI and the White House Red Carpet reception and the signing of the Intergalactic Trade Agreement with the Zeta Reticulans, and how in the absence thereof, surely this entire realm of interest remains nothing but speculative fiction and whacko fringe babble.

The sad irony of ET in the "official" scientific circles is that ET only becomes real at that point that we have the ability to calculate his existence once and for all. Of course, that moment approaches, so I wouldn't be surprised to hear some "shocking" pronouncement one day soon on the "discovery" or some sort of confirmation of ET life.

An _objective_ evaluation of HARD evidence, e.a., what are dismissively referred to as "UFO sightings", radar returns, photographic evidence, trace evidence, multi-person accounts and thousands of documented military intercepts and interactions with "phenomena" you must come to the conclusion that ET is here, that ET is doing as he pleases without our consultation or consent, and apparently, without our knowledge. All things that I would personally characterize as ample evidence of _advanced_ technological superiority. But that's just me.

I would expect hearty chuckles and snorts and derisive laughter from the hardcore speculator-energy crowd, but it's completely irrelevant.

An objective, evaluation of such HARD evidence will also teach us the existence of miracles, ghost-sightings, were-wolfs, and the incredible and thoroughly proven record of astrology! The power of prayers should also not be dismissed. I advise you all to start praying so that PO will be avoided.

Of course, I believe not in such nonsense. Those signs and superstitions are only hiding the fear of people to realize and deal with the hard core reality which is planet earth, and obviously the AI machines that control it and the virtual world we are inside.

Thank you for your thoroughly irrelevant comment. As I have stated, I do believe I am aware that the overwhelming number of so-called "rationalists" dismiss the fact that Air Force jets are scrambled and chase so-called "ghosts", and that nuclear weapons officers in charge of Titan missiles with the capacity to kill millions have successful careers even after filing reports of their sightings of these phenomena. You needn't belabor the point. No, but good for you, really.

In God We Trust eh?

Happy investing.

In God We Trust eh?

Well, not really. You see, I wouldn't trade the evil conspiracy of OVNIs for an invisible and boring god. At least your theory is exciting.

Nope. I just pass on all the bullshit.

You see, those kinds of conspiracies are always self-delusional, because they can never be unproven, and one can't make predictions or derive anything worthy of it. It's just a lame episode of X files over and over.

Get over it.

Delightful. Unfortunately for both of us, while one superstition is my own little personal proclivity, the other is merely the cause of never ending global warfare, mass murder and if we're REALLY lucky, the end of humanity itself.

Now if you'll kindly let me enjoy my ET self-delusions in peace and manage to somehow swallow your happy self-congratulatory sense of rational superiority.

Thank you sir.

Be my guest, self-delusional friend. Good hunting.

Hi luis,

Thanks for your frankness.

It bothers me when people who generally have a predisposition to look at evidence, just dismiss a particular topic without actually examining the evidence in a thorough manner.

It looks to me like you dismiss the topic, ("UFO sightings"), out of hand. Plus, use insults to do so.

Also, it's a diversion (diversionary tactic) to put one topic in a category with others and then dismiss the entire category. Again with insults and labels, such as "signs and superstitions".

Please keep in mind that this topic is also, like much else we discuss here, not an "all-or-nothing" subject.

It's quite possible that the evidence of certain phenomenon and documented events exists. The conclusions the previous poster draws may be a plausible explanation for these observations and phenomenon. Or, they may not be. (The conclusions are rather mild, in themselves.)

http://www.nuforc.org/.

I strongly suggest (prior to dismissal) that you do your own investigation. Track down people who have made reports and are willing to be interviewed. Interview them yourself. Listen to the thousands of hours of tapes. Etc.

And I ask, most of all, for a respectful tone.

Because Fermi's paradox is one of those silly arguments of scale where no one actually knows what numbers to plug in for the probabilities. Sure theres a hundred billion stars in the milky way and a hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, but the likelyhood of civilization arising around one of those stars could easily be lower than 1 civilization in the observable universe.

Consider:

1. Rare earth, where water is liquid.
2. Precambrian life existed as simple single celled organisms for billions of years, indicating the multicellular jump may be quite a bit less likely than just forming life.
3. The jump from multicellular life to animal life with nervous systems may be quite a bit less likely still.
4. There are strong environmental factors selecting against intelligence in creatures capable of using tools.

Are you referring to The Drake Equation?

Sure, the drake equation is one expression of it. For some reason people entheusiastic about SETI always ascribe rather large numbers to some of the variables. Like 1% of life that develops being intelligent.

No way. Theres one civilization in the entire galaxy, and you're in it.

your sort of making Fermi's point.

he was the "where are they?" guy

the drake equation is just a list of unknown or poorly known variables.. rather silly as you say

Boris
London

I have studied Ray Kurzweil's writings, been to his speeches and met and spoken with him personally.
He feels that nanotechnology will enable an explosion of cheap solar power.
http://www.livescience.com/environment/080219-kurzweil-solar.html

Several schools of thoughts and definitions around Technological singularities
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/people-blog/?p=209
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2007/07/the-word-singular...

In terms of timelines, I believe Ray's timelines are still on track because he is predicting exponential rates of change. Which for things like computer speed and DNA synthesis and sequencing are all still on track.

A significant increase in the rate of technological improvement and technological capability can
be achieved even without substantial new breakthroughs.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/06/achieving-mundane-technological.html

A revolution in the speed of construction using contour crafting and other new systems approaches would solve many of the energy infrastructure problems that are limited by the pace of construction. If structures can be built 100 to 1000 times faster then a lot of energy problems would go away. A new nuclear plant built in 1 week instead of 4 years. This could also be achieved with factory produced uranium hydride reactors.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/05/hyperion-uranium-hydride-nuclear.html

DNA sequencing has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, here is the first and I thought I would comment because for the first time on this site I know what I'm talking about (I sequence the genomes of insects for a living).

The cost decreases have come about though miniaturization - in may ways reminiscent of Feymans "there's plenty of room at the bottom". The field has moved from performing sequencing reactions (some simple enzymatic reactions with DNA polymerases and color labeled pieces of DNA) in 50ul of volume in individual tubes to 20ul of volume in 96 well plates (think 96 small tubes in a plastic 12 x 8 array) to 5ul reactions in 384 well plates (24 X 16 arrays and having to worry about evaporation).

These size reductions have now been moved to the micro scale level where first reactions were performed on 50 um diameter beads (as opposed to being performed in liquid phase in tubes) with nice chemistry and engineering tricks to allow millions of reactions to be followed at once - collecting the information with digital images of millions of beads/reactions and being able to analyze those images quickly due to Moores law.

Now companies are using smaller beads (1um diameter) or other ways to get small patches of many DNA molecules on a solid support to get many (20 - 40) millions of reactions processed and analyzed at the same time. Based on this radical reduction in size the technology is getting cheaper at a rate 5-10 fold per each new generation of technology instead of the 2 fold every year in a half when the chemistry reactions were performed individually.

New companies (still without real products are moving to the single molecule level, and have demonstrated that (for example) a single polymerase molecule can be "watched" as it adds chemically modified nucleotides copying a DNA strand in such a way as the sequence of the added nucleotides can be determined. It remains to be seen if these companies can produce commercial machines that can assess millions of these molecules in a cost competitive manner, but they certainly are trying to.

To bring this back to the subject of the post, both the exponential increase in computing power and DNA sequencing capacity have come from minaturization. There is no increase in mass involved (although the data centers have got a lot bigger). This has to be compared to the much slower (but still impressive) increase in the perfomance of rechargable batteries.

Overall I think in computers the next challenge is to massively parallelize computing so we have millions of processing units in every phone on every chip, and I believe there is much work in this direction. With chip feature sizes of 45nm and atoms at around 0.1 nm in diameter, it is clear that easy gains in size reduction have already been accomplished. If this happens then I could easily believe that a machine could have the computing power to out think a human (although whether we could make one that did think is another question.

But the world runs on energy and mass. On this site we talk about millions of Barrels of oil a day, or US States worth of corn production per harvest. And thus I am never sure how information and wisdom can affect this mass of the physical world. If it does happen it will be through something like nanotech making a better solar panel, but we still need millions of them, and they will still need to be shipped.

Unlike information (which can be minaturized to 1's and 0's (computers) or ACG and T (biological information)) energy and mass cannot be reduced in size and still be useful.

Cheers,

fringy

Still - perhaps the first hyper intelligent AI will tell us how to make fusion small and easy enough to power our laptops without burning our legs like this one is now.

I didn't understand most of that but I am better for having read it. I think your comment about not being able to miniaturise mass and energy is the key to this "Technology will save us" mentiality. Just delivering a hot shower takes a minimum amount of energy. While we may not yet have reached optimal efficiency in hot shower delivery, the law of diminishing returns will act on our efforts to do so at some point. While I can imagine that nano-technology might be able to create new materials that could deliver massive amounts of heat right at the point of delivery (for my shower example), the amount of heat in the water, that hits my back, is not going to change.

Something I read recently was that a group of researchers had succeeded in building a maxwell's demon.

If I remember correctly (I don't - it's vague), a maxwell's demon is ruled out by the laws of thermodynamics.

If this is the case then where does that leave us with miniaturization of energy sources?

Here's more information:
"Maxwell's demon tamed:
A manmade molecular machine that can drive a system away from equilibrium is the first to do so using an "information ratchet", claim researchers in Scotland. The machine, in which a light-powered gate controls the transport of molecules, uses a similar principle to Maxwell's demon, a famous thought experiment devised to challenge the second law of thermodynamics (Nature 445 523).

Nature uses molecular machines to drive chemical systems away from thermodynamic equilibrium in virtually every major biological process. But while scientists have been eager to create similar machines to perform nanoscale tasks, they have so far only had success with simple switches that proceed towards equilibrium.

One way onlyDavid Leigh and fellow researchers at the University of Edinburgh, however, have proved that particles can be driven away from equilibrium using a molecular "information ratchet". To perform the feat, they use "rotaxane", an assembly of molecules comprising a dumbbell-shaped axle on which a ring can slide, hindered only by a gate located part way along. By shining light on rotaxane, the ring absorbs photons and transfers energy to the gate, which then temporarily changes shape to let the ring pass. Once the ring has passed, however, it cannot transmit energy back to the gate, and is therefore stuck – or ratcheted – in place.

A comparable ratcheting process was famously conjured 140 years ago by James Clerk Maxwell in a thought experiment that was later nicknamed "Maxwell's demon". Maxwell supposed that some kind of entity (a "demon") could be invented to act as a gatekeeper between two isolated chambers of gas, letting only fast molecules into one chamber and only slow molecules into the other. In doing so, he proposed, the difference in temperature between the two chambers would progressively increase, thus violating the second law of thermodynamics.
"

Beeep Beeep!

Bullshit detector alarm is ringing!

Beeep Beeep!

Luis,

You set the bs detector on too low a setting. This is just a cut and paste from a news release. BTW for your information, University of Edinburgh is not a bogus diploma by mail outfit.

Ask Euan if it is a reputable university or not.

the demon would have to locate the molecules and measure them a energy input... sorry you lose

Naw it works fine. Feynman's ratchet is an implementation of Maxwell's demon.

The only problem is you have to keep the ratchet cooler than the environment, which well, sort of destroys the purpose of the machine.

is this temperature difference the means or reason the ratchet "selects" the particles?

Boris
London

No. But when the ratchet is the same temperature as the environment, thermal noise will cause it to malfunction half the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_ratchet

hmmm..... I sort of want to say I rest my case but will just shut up

Boris
London

Well, we're not really even disagreeing. Maxwell's demon can be built, but its got to have a power source to run. You cant outrun the long arm of the second law.

Of interest here might be discussion of Howard Odum's 4th Law of Thermodynamics, called the Maximum Power Principle, which is basically about non-equilibrium thermodynamics, e.g., living systems and any systems open to energy flows, that often appear to violate the second law (i.e., create and maintain order over time). It was a way of synthesizing physics and biology.

The demon sounds a lot like the work of enzymes in cellular membranes. Gradients are created by selecting which molecules can pass into and out of the cell, but these all have energetic costs, and in in fact cellular metabolism is mechanically done using the flow of protons across a gradient.

Craig Venter, billionaire pioneer in gene sequencing, has used gene synthesis to put together 500,000 genes which will be placed into a cleared cell to create synthetic life.

Other companies are using the new genetic capabilities to create enhanced microbes that make more productive biofuels.

The latest AMD and Nvidia GPGPU processors have 500 cores and 30,000 threads in each chip and the price is as low as $200 per chip which have dual precision teraflop performance. Multiple chips are being placed together in workstations and co-processing boards.

A four GPU system in a 1U-sized rack-mounted device that delivers up to 4 TFlops at 700W. It sells for $7,995.
AMD will be coming out with a 70W system for laptops.

Evolved machines uses the Tesla processors to speed up by 130-fold against simulations with current generation x86 microprocessors. They are now engaged in the design of a rack of GPUs, which will rival the world’s top systems, at 1/100 their cost.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/06/teraflop-chips-amd-firestream-500-cores...

Lawrence Berkeley National Lab researchers are looking at is configurable processor technology developed by Tensilica Inc. The company offers a set of tools that system developers can employ to design both the SoC and the processor cores themselves. A real-world implementation of this technology. LBNL estimate that a 10 petaflop peak system built with Tensilica technology would only draw 3 megawatts and cost just $75 million. It's not a general-purpose system, but neither is it a one-off machine for a single application (like Japan's MD-GRAPE machine, for example). A 10 petaflop Opteron-based system was estimated to cost $1.8 billion and require 179 megawatts to operate; the corresponding Blue Gene/L system would cost $2.6 billion and draw 27 megawatts. Exaflop supercomputers are targeted for 2016-2017.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/02/tensilica-configurable-processors-could...
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/05/berkeley-labs-and-tensilica-working-on....

The increased processing power and hardware neuron simulators would be able to scale from current 22 teraflop to get a detailed 10,000 neurons and 30 million synapses up to 10 million neurons and 30 billion synapses for 22 petaflops (even without simulation efficiency improvements) and 500 million neurons and 1.5 trillion synapses. A whole human brain has 100 billion neurons and 1 trillion synapses. the AI researchers believe that they can increase the efficiency of their simulations to achieve whole brain simulations with exaflop computers
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/blue-brain-status-and-future-of-whole.html

Craig Venter, billionaire pioneer in gene sequencing, has used gene synthesis to put together 500,000 genes which will be placed into a cleared cell to create synthetic life.

Now there's a genie I want to let out of the bottle, a synthetic lifeform that could evolve in ways totally unexpected. And just the person to do it - a wealthy greedy self-absorbed egomaniac.

The point of the information that was provided was, that those who claim that a technological singularity is "not on schedule" have less data backing that claim.

Craig Venter, Kurzweil and others may be labelled as crazy but they have significant resources to bring their visions into reality.

Also, nature produces a lot of new species all the time. So there would be limited impact from evolution of synthetic lifeforms designed to produce more biofuels.

More impactful would be those who use that technology to purposely create weaponized microbes. But giving up the benefit that can save us from peakoil will not prevent the bad uses. Just as giving up nuclear power does not mean that there are no nuclear bombs. Note: nuclear bombs were made first then nuclear power followed. There were thousands of nuclear bombs in soviet and american and british arsenals before the first commercial reactor.

In terms of timelines, I believe Ray's timelines are still on track because he is predicting exponential rates of change.

Thanks for making the point. People here don't seem to understand that one of Kurzweil's main points is that because of its exponential nature, the majority of progress will seem to almost come out of nowhere. In the case of the human genome project, for example, the vast majority of work was done at the very end of the project(s). You have to think therefore in parabolic terms. I don't see why people here seem to miss this point. That said, for our purposes here "The Singularity" with a capital S isn't the point. It's really just technology vs commodity scarcity/global warming that matters. Extraterrestrial musings aren't relevant.