Following the link on Singularity you come to the Wiki on Kardashev Civilization classifications.

I think it’s about time to start TheSnakeOilDrum.com since, with respect to our Earth-Resource Mastery ( yikes ! ) by 2040 we should be at 0.7Kards. Whew, what a relief! Finally we can stop fretting about regular old pre-Singularity liquid-fuels like oil.

* Presumably a Technological Singularity would lead to a rapid development of a Kardashev Type I civilisation where a Kardashev Type I civilization has achieved mastery of the resources of its home planet, Type II of its planetary system, and Type III of its galaxy.[2] Given the fact that we currently will be 0.7 on the Kardashev scale by 2040, a technological singularity between now and then would push us rapidly over that limit.*

I would think Fermi's Paradox would come into force especially on the a priori possibility of a Singularity: if it can happen at all, why wouldn't galactic civilization(s) where it already has be here?

FWIW, Kurzweil does address the Fermi paradox by saying that "well, since a post-singularity civilisation would be easily visible to our current SETI efforts, there cannot be any civilisations which have reached a singularity at any point where electromagnetic waves from them would have reached us by now". I'm not convinced by this argument but it's not something he hasn't thought about.

Sorry guy we gave up on electromagnetics about the time your planet was just a hot rock. We use things like Twerp now, you know we use instantaneous telepathy to take over some twerp like this Crystal Radio and have his fingers do the talking. Greetings to you, Oh brain dead ones, about to die off!

but where is all the in between guys who are not quite at singularity yet? for this sublime alien thing to be true either they all jump to this sublime position OR they are very very very few.... perhaps none!

we should see a spectrum of guys out there on different parts of this curve?

Boris
London

if it can happen at all, why wouldn't galactic civilization(s) where it already has be here?

Yet, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

The sentiment of your quote is certainly comforting (to those with a similar view of the Singularity, which I share), but it does not stand well on it's own (despite Fermi's brilliance).

This is a typically Oedipal evaluation of an Interplanetary species' presence. If WE, mighty mighty WE can't "detect" so-called intelligent life in the universe, certainly it must not exist. If NASA and MIT and SETI and the US Gubmint have officially pronounced that ET is not here, has never been here nor has ever been detected, then surely ET remains entirely hypothetical.

An _objective_ evaluation of HARD evidence, e.a., what are dismissively referred to as "UFO sightings", radar returns, photographic evidence, trace evidence, multi-person accounts and thousands of documented military intercepts and interactions with "phenomena" you must come to the conclusion that ET is here, that ET is doing as he pleases without our consultation or consent, and apparently, without our knowledge. All things that I would personally characterize as ample evidence of _advanced_ technological superiority. But that's just me.

I would expect hearty chuckles and snorts and derisive laughter from the hardcore speculator-energy crowd, but it's completely irrelevant.

One of the effects of the Singularity that I use as a personal measure of Change is the rate of disintegration of institutions. Institutions are bureaucratic entities designed to centralize and control the implementation of Process, but when you reach a point when Process itself assumes, let's call it "velocity", Process escapes institutional control and at some point the institutions become irrelevant. Or, more simply put, the institutions fail.

The ET phenomenon is a perfect example of a complete failure of our institutions across the board. Confronted with evidence of a phenomenon that exceeds our technological/creative/institutional limits to understand and/or interpret. e.a., _control_, our reaction is entirely predictable. We simply dismiss it.

So across mainstream, whenever this issue is brought up, it comes down to discussing SETI and the White House Red Carpet reception and the signing of the Intergalactic Trade Agreement with the Zeta Reticulans, and how in the absence thereof, surely this entire realm of interest remains nothing but speculative fiction and whacko fringe babble.

The sad irony of ET in the "official" scientific circles is that ET only becomes real at that point that we have the ability to calculate his existence once and for all. Of course, that moment approaches, so I wouldn't be surprised to hear some "shocking" pronouncement one day soon on the "discovery" or some sort of confirmation of ET life.

An _objective_ evaluation of HARD evidence, e.a., what are dismissively referred to as "UFO sightings", radar returns, photographic evidence, trace evidence, multi-person accounts and thousands of documented military intercepts and interactions with "phenomena" you must come to the conclusion that ET is here, that ET is doing as he pleases without our consultation or consent, and apparently, without our knowledge. All things that I would personally characterize as ample evidence of _advanced_ technological superiority. But that's just me.

I would expect hearty chuckles and snorts and derisive laughter from the hardcore speculator-energy crowd, but it's completely irrelevant.

An objective, evaluation of such HARD evidence will also teach us the existence of miracles, ghost-sightings, were-wolfs, and the incredible and thoroughly proven record of astrology! The power of prayers should also not be dismissed. I advise you all to start praying so that PO will be avoided.

Of course, I believe not in such nonsense. Those signs and superstitions are only hiding the fear of people to realize and deal with the hard core reality which is planet earth, and obviously the AI machines that control it and the virtual world we are inside.

Thank you for your thoroughly irrelevant comment. As I have stated, I do believe I am aware that the overwhelming number of so-called "rationalists" dismiss the fact that Air Force jets are scrambled and chase so-called "ghosts", and that nuclear weapons officers in charge of Titan missiles with the capacity to kill millions have successful careers even after filing reports of their sightings of these phenomena. You needn't belabor the point. No, but good for you, really.

In God We Trust eh?

Happy investing.

In God We Trust eh?

Well, not really. You see, I wouldn't trade the evil conspiracy of OVNIs for an invisible and boring god. At least your theory is exciting.

Nope. I just pass on all the bullshit.

You see, those kinds of conspiracies are always self-delusional, because they can never be unproven, and one can't make predictions or derive anything worthy of it. It's just a lame episode of X files over and over.

Get over it.

Delightful. Unfortunately for both of us, while one superstition is my own little personal proclivity, the other is merely the cause of never ending global warfare, mass murder and if we're REALLY lucky, the end of humanity itself.

Now if you'll kindly let me enjoy my ET self-delusions in peace and manage to somehow swallow your happy self-congratulatory sense of rational superiority.

Thank you sir.

Be my guest, self-delusional friend. Good hunting.

Hi luis,

Thanks for your frankness.

It bothers me when people who generally have a predisposition to look at evidence, just dismiss a particular topic without actually examining the evidence in a thorough manner.

It looks to me like you dismiss the topic, ("UFO sightings"), out of hand. Plus, use insults to do so.

Also, it's a diversion (diversionary tactic) to put one topic in a category with others and then dismiss the entire category. Again with insults and labels, such as "signs and superstitions".

Please keep in mind that this topic is also, like much else we discuss here, not an "all-or-nothing" subject.

It's quite possible that the evidence of certain phenomenon and documented events exists. The conclusions the previous poster draws may be a plausible explanation for these observations and phenomenon. Or, they may not be. (The conclusions are rather mild, in themselves.)

http://www.nuforc.org/.

I strongly suggest (prior to dismissal) that you do your own investigation. Track down people who have made reports and are willing to be interviewed. Interview them yourself. Listen to the thousands of hours of tapes. Etc.

And I ask, most of all, for a respectful tone.

Because Fermi's paradox is one of those silly arguments of scale where no one actually knows what numbers to plug in for the probabilities. Sure theres a hundred billion stars in the milky way and a hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, but the likelyhood of civilization arising around one of those stars could easily be lower than 1 civilization in the observable universe.

Consider:

1. Rare earth, where water is liquid.
2. Precambrian life existed as simple single celled organisms for billions of years, indicating the multicellular jump may be quite a bit less likely than just forming life.
3. The jump from multicellular life to animal life with nervous systems may be quite a bit less likely still.
4. There are strong environmental factors selecting against intelligence in creatures capable of using tools.

Are you referring to The Drake Equation?

Sure, the drake equation is one expression of it. For some reason people entheusiastic about SETI always ascribe rather large numbers to some of the variables. Like 1% of life that develops being intelligent.

No way. Theres one civilization in the entire galaxy, and you're in it.

your sort of making Fermi's point.

he was the "where are they?" guy

the drake equation is just a list of unknown or poorly known variables.. rather silly as you say

Boris
London