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283 comments on DrumBeat: June 30, 2008
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283 comments on DrumBeat: June 30, 2008
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GAIA Host Collective
“Railways handle 32% of Swiss freight traffic and 16% of passenger traffic, but they use only 3% of the total energy required for all transportation.”
- SBB (SwissRail) Environmental Report
89% of the electricity came from SBB owned hydroelectric plants and the rest from the Swiss grid (60% hydro, 40% nuclear).
Best Hopes for Electrified Rail,
Alan
Alan Drake is the man with a plan--to "Make things not as bad as they would otherwise have been." How's that for a winning campaign slogan? All we can do is to be ready with a credible plan when the rest of the country realizes what Alan realized a long time ago, that the path to the future is on an electrified rail system.
I suggest that you work toward setting up speaking engagements for Alan in your local community (I am doing precisely that Dallas). If nothing else, stress a four letter word, J-O-B-S.
What I would be interested in is some type of rail connecting small rural farming communities. At one time all of these small towns had a rail trunk; the old rail station in my town is used as a Kiwanis meeting center. Many of these rail lines were removed when the interstates came. My thinking is that these rail systems could be connected to local hubs which would be then tied to the main system. Should be a lot more efficient than trucking and personal transportation, and it might revitalize these small towns for futre centers of locally produced agriculture. Any one have any plans for something like this?
Hello Bruce from Chicago,
My proposal if we can't expand Alan Drake's ideas as fast as FF-energy depletes:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4229/370972
Another consideration posted yesterday:
Hello TODers,
I was just watching the 'Cambodian Bamboo Train' video again, then I started wondering:
--------------------------------
Is this country now so poor from ELM and rising I-NPK prices that possibly many, or most of these rudimentary trains are now just rotting away in the jungle weeds?
----------------------------------
Yikes!! :(
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Reddy Kilowatt to the rescue!
Question -- why haven't electrical utilities gotten politically behind Alan's plan? Or have they, and I missed it??
Hi NeverLNG,
I kinda miss 'ole Reddy...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PznxZ3zmL00
and
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BbZUI9YicFs&feature=related
For those served by the U.K.'s electricity boards...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv2tdCEBkKg&feature=related
Cheers,
Paul
Therein lies the problem; pitting the campaign slogan "Make things not as bad as they would otherwise have been" vs. "You can have it all just the way it was before," guess which one will win.
Unfortunately, truth doesn't get you elected. Doesn't get your project selected either.
He could always go with Jimmy Carter's "Eat Your Broccoli, America!" speech. Though it didn't seem to work too well for Mr. Carter.
But yeah, "Making things not as bad" could include lots of things, in no particular order:
etc. ...
The 31 billion Swiss franc TransAlp and related projects should increase passenger modal share for rail (240 kph trains) but the Swiss are planning on an 80% modal share for rail freight vs. heavy trucking.
Much of the portion of the 31 billion that was borrowed (much was "pay as you go" with taxes) will be repaid with new tolls on trucks after two major new rail tunnels are opened.
One tunnel will provide a level, straight rail path from Zurich to Milan using 58 km, 20 km and 10 km tunnels (from memory) for up to 300 trains/day and trains up to 1.5 km long and at speeds to 240 kph (150 mph).
SBB uses 16.7 Hz electricity (1/3rd of 50 Hz so they can convert from grid if need be, but they prefer making their own power in their own hydroelectric plants).
Best Hopes for SBB,
Alan
What's the advantage of using a different frequency?
It allows you to use motors with fewer poles (or get greater torque from a given AC motor) AFAIK. I would like to know more.
Also some long distance transmission advantages.
Amtrak's NorthEast Corridor operates at 25 Hz south of New York City to Washington DC. With modern electric locos, Hz is no longer an issue. They convert single phase AC from wire to DC and then 3 phase AC
Hopes that helps,
Alan
(from Wikipedia)
The lower the frequency the lower the motor speed, and the higher the torque available. Also easier gearing and better power factor in both the motor and the transformers.
Also, in general (with lots of exceptions):
DC motors > AC motors in cost
Synchronous AC motors > Induction AC motors in cost
Cheapest motors in big sizes around are squirrel cage induction motors. Three phase types are self-starting and can act as generators, for regenerative braking.
AFAIK, most traction motors used to be series wound DC, but now tend to be wound-rotor induction. Wikipedia notes the TGV is a synchronous AC, though.
Simple schematic diagram of a modern electric locomotive
http://www.railway-technical.com/elec-loco-bloc.shtml
FYI for those curious,
Alan
Neat !
BTW,
One time you mentioned a 40 pole motor was the most you knew of in locomotive applications.
I told one of my HVAC/R instructors about that (he's a retired nuke engineer) and he expressed an interest in seeing a schematic of that.
Have you come across such a thing ?
I poked around google a bit.
I think it was hydroelectric. Matches optimum RPM for the turbine with the generator by increasing the # of poles.
2 pole 50 Hz = 3000 rpm
2 pole 60 Hz = 3600 rpm
40 pole 60 Hz = 180 rpm
40 pole 50 Hz = 150 rpm
www.andritz.com/hydro-media-media-center-hydro_news_2003_05_en_1_.pdf
1.3 Mb pdf
40 pole is not the limit of those in use, I think I once heard of a 62 rpm 116 pole hydroelectric generator. Not economic today (and rewinding it would be "problematic").
Alan
PDF document (in English) here - but it is from 2002/2003.
We need rail, but we also need restructured cities which make it possible to largely minimize the use of any transportation system, except bicycles and walking.
Best Hopes for more pedestraian zones, more compact cities, more localized goods and services, and more people who live closer to where they shop,work, and recreate.
Denver is overlaying an extensive rail and bus system on their existing sprawlapolitan area, but I fear that this will be a very inefficient approach as people will still be commuting long distances. If they don't rein in exurbia, people will be able to move even further out and still take advantage of the new rail systems.
True, but the "old Boston suburb" model (up to @ 1950) is also viable, if not perfect.
Small towns of, say, 5,000 to 20,000 population, with downtown within walking distance for healthy people. Downtown rail station that takes a certain % of the labor force to Boston every morning. Local services (plumbers, grocery stores, doctors, schoolteachers, etc.) provide employment for a majority that can walk to work near downtown. The rest commute via train and bring back the $.
In an area with more fertile soil than Massachusetts, local farmers need only take their produce a couple of miles to the local Suburban grocer or for transport to Boston via train.
Not Utopia, but sustainable IMO.
Just electrify the "T" (MBTA) !
Best Hopes for Transit Suburbia,
Alan
That's very similar to most of Nassau County (county on long island closest to NYC). A good number of people work in NYC (mostly in Manhatten), I've heard about 25% take the Long Island Rail Road, which averages 200k passengers (I'm pretty sure making it the largest commuter rail system in the country), both commuters and a great deal of recreational NYC travelers. While most towns' buisness districts aren't within walking distance, they're mostly a short drive away, many of which are clustered around the major Long Island Rail Road stations. There's also a significant pressence of inter-town busses, although I think it mostly serves low-income workers that work in nearby towns.
Here, the railroad to an extent encourages sprawl, but at the same time the NYC metropolitan area would but untenable without (not enough room for new roads, not enough area to park cars, etc) the Long Island Rail Road, Metro North, and PATH systems, and allows to be probably the densest buisness center in the world which relies moreso on public transit than driving intra city movement, and significantly relies on public transit for suburb to downtown commuting and recreation travel.
Hi, tstreet.
The Oakland task force report talks about restructuring Oakland into small neighborhoods called Urban Villages.
The report, however, is short on details on how to execute that vision in a world of high energy prices.
-André
www.PostPeakLiving.com
That is the most encouraging thing that I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the post.
This is very similiar to the settlement pattern called "Penturbia" in the (so far) amazingly accurate predictions by Professor Jack Lessinger.
I don't have time to write much today, but you can read about Penturbia at
http://www.predicting2020.com/road.html (especially at the bottom of the page)
and if you prefer pictures and maps and the "quick overview" just flip through the pages beginning at http://www.predicting2020.com/insights.html
Anybody else out there beeen following Lessinger's work, especially the Schizomania theory?
Greg in MO
Hmm, Andre, the neighborhood names from Rockridge down to 98th and International seem to be closely aligned to the Hayward fault line.
(laughing) Hey, Dennis, I hadn't thought of that! (wink)
I know, that's why in my conversations with Jeanne Rosenmeier I encourage her Task Force to take a really hard look at disaster cleanup in a post peak world. (Jeanne saw it right away, btw; I simply had to mention it.)
The Oakland Peak Oil Report does not discuss disaster cleanup and rebuilding in a post peak world at all, which I think is a major omission. I suspect that after The Big One, we may be forced to abandon large swaths of city throughout California because we won't have the energy to rebuild.
It's also one of the reasons I am recommending that each of our counties have their own Strategic Petroleum Reserve, some portion of which would be allocated for disaster cleanup (and maybe some rebuilding but I doubt we'll have that much). In Marin County, our next job is to have peak oil fall under the disaster prep ordinances so that the disaster planners have the latitude to address peak oil. Our disaster guys are excellent; they get peak oil completely.
-André
where will the gasoline come from? it'll come from all those cars and trucks that aren't on the road because of The Big One.
Railways handle 32% of Swiss freight traffic and 16% of passenger traffic, but they use only 3% of the total energy required for all transportation.
Hi Alan,
I went and had a look at the document you referenced...
http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/umweltbericht_02-03.pdf
...and found it disappointingly lightweight. All ratios, very few hard numbers. At one point the author confuses terajoules and petajoules (Page 26), at another point he confuses energy consumption and efficiency (Page 27 commentary on freight traffic trends).
Nevertheless, 3% of total transportation energy for 16% of passenger traffic (more damn ratios) looks impressive. What doesn't look impressive, oddly, is their claimed passenger transport energy consumption of about 9 kWh/100 passenger km - at least in comparison with the numbers given by David McKay in his analysis of energy needs in the UK. This study is a huge PDF, but probably worth the time needed to download it from here...
http://withouthotair.com/ look at pp. 135-140
...where he quotes a best in class for rail of 3 kWh/100 passenger km - the SBB claimed number is more like what McKay quotes for a tram system.
I'd be genuinely interested in your critical review of McKay's statistics. I'm sure he would be grateful for your feedback as well, given your more specialized sector knowledge. That PDF is a draft and he explicitly invites public input.
Returning to SBB, I'm wondering about that huge discrepancy between 3% energy usage and 16% passenger traffic/32% freight traffic, especially given their apparently low energy efficiency. I'm wondering if there might be something about the Swiss economy that distorts transport useage patterns. Export of financial services, drugs and tourism balanced by imports of food and finished goods? Unusually high per-caput air mileage? Double or null accounting for freight-miles in neighbouring countries and tourist air-miles? Unfortunately that ratio-ridden PDF doesn't have enough raw data to let me decide.
Best Hopes for Accurate Statistics,
The Plucky Underdog
I went looking for more "meat" and, after the original quote, it was not what I was looking for.
Shipments between Germany and Italy are a very high % of Swiss freight (a majority ? looked at a table years ago ...).
The Swiss want this freight to be 1) on SBB or 2) go through Austria (or France) and NOT on Swiss roads anymore.
I have a very high priority task at hand, but after that I will look at the report.
Best Hopes,
Alan