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101 comments on Forecasts on Saudi Arabia liquids production
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101 comments on Forecasts on Saudi Arabia liquids production
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It is self evident that the logistic method for swing producers has problems, but does that make it useless? In our early 2006 paper using Texas and the Lower 48 as a model for Saudi Arabia and the world, we noted that Saudi Arabia in 2005 was at about the same stage of depletion at which the prior swing producer, Texas, peaked. For Saudi Arabia, I believe that we used about 1991 to 2005 data inclusive. Given the vast number of uncertainties that we have to deal with as outsiders, in my opinion the relatively objective logistic method is the most plausible estimate of URR.
Note that the inflection upward in the Saudi logistic plot prior to 2005 was quite similar to what Texas showed pre-peak. It both cases it appeared to be the effect of a swing producer going to almost 100% of capacity. After peaking, Texas showed a steady linear progression on the logistic plot. The 2006, 2007 and 2008 Saudi data are going to show a logistic plot that is consistent with an URR of less than 200 Gb, (C+C). While Saudi Arabia has shown a production rebound in 2008, it is very likely that their 2008 annual production will be below their 2005 annual rate. If this is the case, Saudi Arabia will have shown three years of annual production below their 2005 rate, at about the same stage of depletion at which the prior swing producer, Texas, started declining. And like Texas in the Seventies, we have seen the following pattern in Saudi Arabia: Higher Crude Oil Prices + Increased Drilling = Lower Crude Oil Production.
We shall see what happens in 2009, but I suspect that 2005 will turn out to be the Saudi's final peak. In any case, I estimate if the Saudis wanted, and were able, to match their 2005 net export rate they would have to produce about 11.8 mbpd total liquids in 2009, versus their 2005 rate of 11.1 mbpd.
Texas & Lower 48 Paper
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/16459
Great work Wes. For me log normal plots tell the truth as best can be learned from the limitations. I know you understand the significance of a straight l/n plot but many don't understand the physical natural laws driving the reservoir dynamics. I'll bet more than a few are suspicious of such a straight and predictable projection. Once, on another thread, I tried to explain the accuracy of production forecasting when the decline curve reaches this point but I doubt I did much good.
Minor correction: all of the technical work was done by my frequent (and IMO, brilliant) coauthor, Khebab. I suspect that the logistic method is controversial because, in many cases, people simply don't like the resulting URR estimates, but my point is that I am not choosing an estimate for URR. The logistic (HL) method is predicting the URR. And while there is a degree of judgment involved in picking the parameters, I think that everyone would agree that Saudi Arabia started showing a linear progression in 1991.
westexas, what was the historical decline rate of Texas and the Lower 48 & how closely do you think Saudi Arabia may follow this? Sorry if this has already been mentioned on prevuous threads.
Texas has declined on average at about -4%/year and the Lower 48 at about -2%/year, although there have been periods of flat production and/or year over year increases in production (to levels below their peak rates).
The Saudi HL plot suggests that it will have a lower decline rate than Texas, and this is one of the reasons that I suggested, in early 2007, that Saudi Arabia could show a rebound in production, i.e., the initial production decline was steeper than what the HL model predicted. I believe that Khebab is showing a middle case total liquids decline rate of about -2.7%/year for Saudi Arabia.
I am somewhat suspicious about recent Saudi production numbers. I have speculated that they may be curtailing domestic refinery runs in order to boost reported crude oil exports, and planning to boost product imports. If this is the case, they may be having trouble importing enough diesel, since there have been widespread reports of Saudi farmers being out of diesel--with a farming group threatening to sue Saudi Aramco. Interesting enough, Saudi Aramco has denied that are any diesel shortages in the kingdom.
Hold on. You use KSA production numbers to do your linearization, and now the numbers aren't falling in line, you suspect the numbers instead of the HL?
I respect your work and agree in general with your conclusions, but this dogmatic attitude has to have an exit strategy - where/when are you wrong (on KSA URR and production)?
Thanks
As noted elsewhere, I thought that there was a good chance that the Saudis would show an increase in production, to a level below their 2005 rate. This premise is not incompatible with also suspecting that the Saudis might be using a little sleight of hand to temporarily augment the perception of the size of the rebound in production. Doesn't anyone else find it odd that Saudi farmers are threatening to sue Saudi Aramco because they can't get the fuel to run their irrigation pumps, while Saudi Aramco is asserting that there is no fuel shortage in the kingdom? My premise is that this is a short term situation, keyed to the US elections. I assume that the Saudis are "voting" for McCain.
In any case, if we assume about 9.4 mbpd (C+C) average annual for 2008, and if we use a C+C HL decline rate of about -3%/year, I estimate that Saudi Arabia will have produced about 10 Gb of crude oil in from 2006 to 2008 inclusive, while the HL decline estimate suggests that they should have produced 9.9 GB. If they had maintained their 2005 rate, they would have produced about 10.5 Gb.
To put 10 GB in three years in perspective, this is on the order of the largest oil field in the US, Prudhoe Bay (about 12 Gb of oil), and it is about twice the URR for the East Texas Field, the largest Lower 48 oil field. It took decades to fully deplete these two giant fields.
Is this sort of speculation/conspiracy theory the reason you call HL "relatively objective"?
If the numbers don't work, then adding speculation doesn't help convince.
BTW-the Saudis are also past Peak Water
""It is possible to save 1,300-1,500 cubic metres of water for every tonne of wheat produced," Qabbani said.
The phasing out of Saudi wheat production will have little impact on global prices, said Abdoulreza Abbassian, a Food and Agricultural Organisation grain analyst."
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL08699206
So what few farmers are left can't get fuel.
...on reflection I think I would rather be living in a relatively wet country (UK) with no oil than a dry one with no water... There's a reason why deserts have no people in 'em...
Regards, Nick.
I assume that most people would think that 9.4 mbpd, based on what we know so far, is a plausible estimate for 2008 average annual Saudi production. As noted elsewhere, this would put the post-2005 cumulative production in close agreement with the HL estimate. So why don't the numbers work?
So why don't the numbers work?
The biggest issue is that the URR is creeping higher. I suspect that if you update through 2008, you will find that your URR has gone over 200 Gb. Thus, today's HL is not the same as the HL you did in 2005. In that case, you could call peak whenever you want: 2002? Sure, the numbers work. 2010? Ditto, depending upon your assumptions.
This is the same thing I noted in the case of Texas. Had you done the HL in 1960, you could have erroneously concluded that Texas was at peak. But the numbers kept changing, and of course Texas didn't peak until more than 10 years later.
And for the record, my objection is certainly not because I don't like what the HL says. My objection is based on the fact that I have actually gone back and backcast the numbers in the case of Texas, and in real time it would not have been possible to call the peak. There are no objective criteria defined that indicate peak. Is it at 52% of Qt? 60%? The difference there may be 10 years. But when there is that much leeway in defining the numbers, it is easy to come up with just about any answer you want.
Again, I think it would be very useful to update the 2005 paper and incorporate data through 2008. A good model must be able to incorporate new data, and it shouldn't give different answers if the model is robust. By ignoring the more recent data, you open yourself up to legitimate criticisms.
This will be the last post on the matter from me, as I have to step out for the day. Anyway, I didn't intend to carry on a long debate on this. Those are my observations after actually having run a number of HL cases (and also after having run numerous computer simulations during my career, and understanding what makes a robust model).
At this point in time, we can say that the two largest oil producers in the world are conforming to their respective HL models. This may change. Time will tell.
In Defense of the Hubbert Linearization Method (June, 2007)
http://graphoilogy.blogspot.com/2007/06/in-defense-of-hubbert-linearizat...
Robert, I agree with your comments. In any predictive framework, assumptions and unknowns, so far as they can be spotted, must be carefully noted. With SA HL numbers changing as they obviously have, I don't see a basis for confidently predicting URR. Note that for the Doomers, inconfidence in this respect doesn't mean the world won't end somehow else, so net overall doomer confidence should remain undisturbed.
I assume that the Saudis are "voting" for McCain.
If they are, it's under duress. Look at Pakistan.
It is self evident that the logistic method for swing producers has problems, but does that make it useless?
Depends on how big the problems are. You and Laherrère are clearly pretty far apart here.
The 2006, 2007 and 2008 Saudi data are going to show a logistic plot that is consistent with an URR of less than 200 Gb, (C+C).
But, the URR is going to show that it is creeping higher as you add those numbers in. You will also find % of Qt moving backward, not forward as you would expect if the HL was correct. That's what I discovered both when I backcast Texas from about 1960 forward, and when I did the HL for Saudi and added in the years following 2005. In other words, incorporation of new data indicates that the URR is not static per the HL.
It might be useful to update the paper, incorporate the data through 2007, (you could even estimate 2008 at this point) and indicate what is changing - and by how much. But what, I mean URR, % of Qt, etc.
As we have previously discussed, in the Texas/Lower 48 paper I never claimed that the pre-peak Texas HL plot was stable. I did note that if we looked at the total Texas plot, we could derive an estimate of at what stage of depletion that Texas peaked. We then took that number, around 57% of URR, and applied it to the far more stable Saudi HL plot, and as noted above, it is quite likely that Saudi Arabia is going to show three years of average annual production below their 2005 rate, at about the same stage of depletion at which Texas peaked. I suspect that 2009 will tell the tale.
So it safe to say the peak is "near", while striving to not definitively state a precise date?
It seems to me that if you can convincingly argue near-peak or past-peak for most major fields, and for the world overall, the precise data is not as important as the fact that we're about half done with oil.
Regardless of the date, and the exact shape of the peak, we're at the cusp of worldwide energy shifts, and I think we need to assume the worst and start work based on that. If it turns out we have a few more years, maybe we can stretch that to a decade or more of relatively productive transitions.
The sooner we "feel the pain" and do something about it, the less the eventual pain will be. I've given up on meaningful energy policy from the US gov't, as whatever they do is expensive and ill-conceived at best. It'll all have to get done by businesses and individuals, and high price signals really help that process along.
I think that Saudi Arabia's final peak was in 2005. I could of course be wrong.
Jeff,
You should use this result instead:
It leads to the following forecast which has a wide uncertainty interval in terms of flow rates but the upper limit is close to what Jean is saying:
The HSM is also pointing to a constant production scenario until 2020:
Khebab,
How do you generate your confidence intervals? And is it possible to do the same thing in Excel? Or are you using Matlab?
I used a bootstrap technique but there are other ways to do it. I have received your email, I'll see what I can do.
I believe that your HL plot in the Texas/Lower 48 paper was for C+C, but isn't your HL plot above for C+C+NGL?
BTW, what would you estimate the C+C decline rate to be based on the Texas/Lower 48 HL plot? I used the middle case for the top five (C+C+NGL) paper of -2.7%/year, and rounded up to -3%/year.
Is that correct? If not it seems Robert's questions above were validated by Khebab's graph as URR is creeping up.
Also, do you know what was decision making process behind adding the 80s into the fit?
I double checked the production curve. The Saudi HL graph in our Texas/Lower 48 HL paper is C+C. The above HL graph, from our top five net exporters paper, is C+C+NGL. BTW, Jean shows 2005 as the final C+C peak, and Ace was weighed in on the subject down the thread.
In my "Defense of" article, I noted that the Lower 48 production data through 1970 and the Russian production data through 1984 very accurately predicted the post-1970 Lower 48 and post-1984 Russian cumulative production (two regions with wildly different production profiles). If Robert had done his analysis on a stable HL plot like the Lower 48, he would have come up with different results, and the key point is that the Saudi HL plot is much more stable than the pre-peak Texas HL plot. I did analyze the pre-peak Texaas HL plot in detail in a followup article, which unfortunately led to frequent criticisms that we had "cherry picked" the data in our Texas/Lower 48 paper, which is absolutely false. Khebab used the 1991 to 2005 data, inclusive, in the Texas/Lower 48 paper. My point was that the inflection in the HL data, the "dogleg up," is an artifact of a swing producer going to virtually 100% of capacity (strictly speaking Texas did not go to 100% in 1972; two large fields were kept at lower production levels).
BTW, Stuart's objection, in March of 2007, to the Saudi HL model, was that the production decline to date was sharper than what the HL model predicted. I replied that this was one of the reasons that I expected to see a rebound in Saudi production, which we have seen (although I did say that they might rebound to "a level well below" their 2005 rate). IMO, 2009 will tell the tale as to whether 2005 was the final peak, but in any case depletion marches on, as does rising Saudi consumption. Jean didn't generate a net exports graph, but if he had, it would have showed declining net oil exports.
Here is the projected (low case, middle case, high case) net export graph for Saudi Arabia that Khebab did in our (Khebab/Brown) top five paper which I delivered at ASPO-USA in October:
If Robert had done his analysis on a stable HL plot like the Lower 48, he would have come up with different results
I did do the HL for the Lower 48, and you are correct that it was more stable. The problem then is, how do you define what is stable? I ran a lot of HLs for different areas, and the Lower 48 is an exception. What we have here is a model - without solidly objective criteria to determine when it is working - that is not highly reliable. As such, you have a recipe for being able to come up with practically any answer you want. If the numbers don't turn out to be as expected, we can always cite one more variable to explain away the discrepancy.
I assert that the HL is like a Ouija board. It is influenced by the person running the model such that many answers are possible. Otherwise, someone could define the terms that indicate when a region has peaked. This has not been done, and I doubt can be done with any degree of precision. So what do we have? A model that can only be judged to have worked years after the actual peak. That is, unless you can give hard numbers for concepts like "stable" and "% of Qt that indicates a peak."
In other words, the Lower 48 HL plot showed no material increase in URR with time. Regarding definitions, I think that everyone would agree that the Saudi HL plot is more stable than the pre-peak Texas HL plot.
In any case, as noted up the thread, the post-1970 Lower 48 and post-1984 Russian cumulative production numbers were quite accurately predicted by using the Lower 48 production through 1970 and the Russian production through 1984 to construct HL models. This has obvious implications for world production--which is showing a solid linear progression.
Furthermore, as you noted, the available data suggest that the more stable the HL plot, the more accurate the URR prediction--which has obvious implications for Saudi Arabia.
This is exactly what I mean. Define stability. Can you measure it? Is it based on some specific r-squared value? Those are the kinds of things that have to be nailed down before you can say "We have a predictive model."
In my life as a computer modeler, that model had to be correct again and again and again. If it wasn't, then I couldn't trust it to predict the right answers for me. On that basis, I see the HL as completely unreliable, because a model that works part of the time - with no objective way to determine whether it is working - is useless to me.
I'm sure that you could define a linear pattern in terms of amplitude change, and I think that Stuart has done some stability analysis, but the stable patterns are obvious to objective observers--Lower 48; North Sea; Mexico; Russia (until the Soviet collapse); Saudi Arabia and now the world.
But Saudi is not stable. If it was, it wouldn't be pushing the URR to higher values. You have in the past used Texas as a proxy for Saudi. Yet we know Texas would have given many false alarms. Now you suggest that the Lower 48 is stable. This is not objective. This is reading your own biases in, and picking data sets that confirm the biases. If the measurements are objective, you should be able to define exactly how an independent observer can use the HL to predict a peak and URR.
It's worth clearly distinguishing between production in Russia and production in the whole USSR.
Unless the data you're using disaggregates much better than the EIA data, that model was constructed from Soviet production, not Russian. Production in the former USSR has been 12-25% higher than Russian production since country-by-country data has been available, meaning that cumulative production has been 8-9Gbbl higher, and the HL fit is no longer looking so good.
You say that Russian production "caught up" in 2006, but that would mean that production in the former USSR - which is what the model actually predicts - was at that point about 8Gbbl (5%) over what was predicted, and that overproduction has been rising ever since. Moreover, while Russian production has started to decline, former-USSR production has been rising past former records, pushing the disparity even further.
Based on that, it's not clear that the USSR's data is supportive of HL's predictive powers.
I'll have to defer to Khebab. He came up with his best estimate for Russian production, versus the FSU.
You are basically correct, pre-1985 production from Russia only is not publicly available so using FSU data instead prior to 1985 will increase production probably between 5 and 10% .
Here is a chart from the ASPO showing Russia's production (C+C):
Here are the various datasets I have:
I tend to concur with your view as the graphics below. In the first graphic, the data is annual data AND for comparison I show where the linear flow would have to be to achieve a URR of 260 GB. The last "tail" data is what would be projected if the total year average for the KSA was 9.3 MMBPD, a number that has not yet been achieved in 2008 as an average for the YTD. As Robert points out elsewhere, it has the effect of shifting the curve to the right but only slightly. Flat production eventually shows up as a declining curve as the P/Q ratio gets smaller with each additional data point. And to continue to shift the curve "to the right" one has to have continual growth in production for quite sometime. Mathematically, what compounds the issue is that larger the production the faster the increase in sum value (Q) and the more difficult it becomes to sustain or increase the P/Q ratio.
Notice that this graphic projects to a value of ~213 GB. the arrow to the 2005 peak also moved in the translation from Excel to a JPEG. Thats the point just above the arrowhead.
The second graphic is the same data except using monthly as opposed to annual data. The curve has much more noise to it, but the linearization covers the same time frame (January 1990 to present). Note that the monthly data suggests a somewhat lower URR (~205) AND because of the larger number of datapoints is less influenced by a single or a small collection of production increases or decreases on a monthly basis. To shift this curve substantially, as noted above, would require production increases that are not characterisitic of any production curve that we have seen.
For fun, I increased the KSA output by an average of 100,000 BPD/month from now until the end of 2009 (so that production is over 11 million barrels per day and beating their November 1980 output record. It does shift the curve to a URR of ~240GB or roughly the amount used globally in a little more than one year. But as soon as this increase "stops" the curve begins it's decline once again. So, it is reasonable to ask, in the face of what we do and do not know, does any of this increase seem reasonable or even plausible?
And for real fun if you increase at a rate of 200,000 BPD/month so that production at the end of 2009, production is more than 12.5 million BPD, it shifts the curve a little further to the right to the value of 260 GB URR, but only 20 GB greater than the hypothetical immediately above even though the rate of increase is twice as high over the same period. And this production curve does not look like anything we've seen recently from the KSA.
"Ultimately," the big numbers get you!
I not know much about this subject but I like to share some simple thoughts, please forgive me for my ignorance:
First, a swing producer exist when there is an abundance (supply > demand at a reasonable price) so in order to stop price from falling the swing producer cut production, vice versa for the opposite. As soon as abundance is gone and tightness comes, when demand is greater than price there is no longer a swing producer because all the producers are producing at their maximum level to take advantage of the price.
Since the hubbert's linearization is I think based on the assumption that a producer will produce at its maximum level geologically possible therefore it not work for swing producers. There is no use of linearizing a swing producer. In order to get some useful information about flow rates and reserves must only linearize non-swing producers only. The swing producers must only linearize when they are no longer swing producers.
Second, all oil exporters which also have vast natural gas reserves (I think they all have that) would ultimately liquify their natural gas to be sold as liquids. So, in order to get useful information about prices, flow rates etc we must take in account natural gas reserves of an oil exporter as well as its oil reserves. Luckily there is no opec like thing for natural gas liquids so we can assume that govt declared reserves are correct. This thing help reducing chaos in our data and predictions that come due to uncorrect reporting of oil reserves by some govts.
No actually this is one of the more sensible things I've read in the comments. I think there is a danger for us to lose objectivity when we passionately believe something. That doesn't mean that we're wrong about everything we believe, rather we may find out later that one assumption has led to a series of mistakes. Maybe mistake is too strong of a word because I believe a lot of the analysis is good, but sometimes when you've invested a lot it's easy to lose sight of your initial assumptions.
Truthfully, I'm not convinced that KSA has peaked at this point. Even if they peak, it is as you say... they have been a swing producer in the past. The best evidence has been that they have been producing "all out", but that could also be a ploy (by under-investment or other means) to keep the prices high. I question Venezuela's and Russia's production numbers as well. It may never be possible to prove, but I can see potential for some strategy playing out between the large producers.
So in short: any model of cartel-based behavior or swing producer behavior is subject to discrepancy. The possibilities don't look good, if only because of the larger OPEC and OECD situation. The fear is that the KSA will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I'm not sure that it's fair to judge them at all, regardless of whether they have misled. It's time to wake up from our 100+ year oil binge...