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269 comments on DrumBeat: July 18, 2008

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Datamunger on July 18, 2008 - 10:15am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

That article says:

Oil shale rock burns on its own when lit with a torch.

Has there been research on using it more or less as it is to generate electricity rather than separating oil from rock for transportation purposes?

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westexas on July 18, 2008 - 10:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I gave a talk at Sandia Labs on Monday, and I asked one of the Sandia guys this exact question, since I had read that Shale Oil is used, in I believe one of the former Soviet Republics, as a boiler fuel. He said that it was, in some cases, possible, but that like coal, there are different grades of Shale Oil quality, and it has to be a fairly high quality kerogen deposit in order to make it worthwhile to use as a boiler fuel.

In any case, I suspect that this may be the future for Shale Oil--stripmining high quality deposits to use to generate electricity. However, the volume of waste ash will be tremendous, and I think that this is really dirty stuff that I suspect will make some grades of coal look clean.

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probeprobeprobe on July 18, 2008 - 10:35am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Was your talk in Albuquerque? I would love to see an overview of what you said and have some feeling for the response. I live there and know several Sandians...technocornucopians and speculator-blamers all. I don't bring up peak oil lest I lose my friends...I figure they're smart, eventually it will sink in.

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westexas on July 18, 2008 - 11:10am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Well, I wouldn't call "all' of them technocornucopians. My talk (in Albuquerque) was videolinked to two other national labs, and it is reportedly being widely viewed on the national laboratory intranet. They are working on posting it on the Internet. We had a very good turnout, and I would say the primary response can be characterized as shock.

BTW, we were given a tour of solar research facilities, and it was very impressive, especially the concentrated solar research facility. I just wish that they had more funding for solar research. FYI--as you probably know, it's not exactly easy (for obvious reasons) to get in. My wife and I had to clear a background security check and we could not bring any electronic devices of any kind in to the facility.

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probeprobeprobe on July 18, 2008 - 11:52am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thanks...I'm glad you talk shocked people and is being widely viewed...that can only be a good thing! I often wonder what kind of progress could be made if all research at the national labs related to nuclear weapons/bunker busters/infrared crowd control guns/ spy satellites....all the military industrial complex bs was halted and they focussed solely on alternative energy research.

Yes I have seen the solar concentrator, you can get a good view from a plane coming or going from the Abq airport. Security clearances are a common topic of conversation amongst the Sandians I know - who's up for review, how long it takes etc. And I really don't know what any of them do other than the basics - computer programmer, mechanical engineer etc...I would lose my mind working there!

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eric blair on July 18, 2008 - 12:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

impressive, especially the concentrated solar research facility.

Are you willing or able to spill the beans when the masses will see an actual sterling cycle engine that is 'afforable' (cheaper than solar panels as an example)

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Olle on July 18, 2008 - 10:30am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

R&D is not needed. Estonia get 75% of their electricity from burning shale:
http://www.estoniaenergy.com/

For now I guess coal is cheaper (in the US) and the environmental effects of burning shale is of course enormous, but it is easily done on an industrial scale.

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Datamunger on July 18, 2008 - 10:48am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thanks for the info ( WT also).

That led to checking the EIA's country profile for Estonia. They are a net exporter of electricity (most from oil shale) and that business is quite profitable and a substantial source of government revenues.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Baltic/Electricity.html

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Darwinian on July 18, 2008 - 10:45am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The stuff is marl, not shale, with kerogen, or former organic life, embedded in it. It will burn if heated with a hot enough torch, but it does not burn very well and much of it does not have enough kerogen to even burn at all.

Marl is a kind of very dirty limestone.

Marl or Marlstone is a calcium carbonate or lime-rich mud or mudstone which contains variable amounts of clays and aragonite.

And the volume of tailings, or ash if you burned it, is greater than the original volume. This is because the tailings are not nearly as compact as the original marl.

Ron Patterson

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westexas on July 18, 2008 - 10:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

My Sandia source thought that the stuff in FSR's (apparently Estonia) was higher quality than most US Kerogen sources.

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Olle on July 18, 2008 - 11:15am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The Estonian shale has an average heating value of 9.0 GJ/ton. Is there any numbers for the US?

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r4ndom on July 20, 2008 - 1:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Sounds like a pre-mixed Portland Cement source...

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269 comments on DrumBeat: July 18, 2008

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