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309 comments on DrumBeat: July 31, 2008
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309 comments on DrumBeat: July 31, 2008
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GAIA Host Collective
'Oil from algae' promises climate friendly fuel
Is this any improvement on previous algae-oil schemes? It still seems to have the drawback of the enormous farms needed to grow all the cyanobacteria (yields from open ponds are apparently too low). Then there's the obligatory 'commercial production within 5 years' bit towards the end of the article.
Any thoughts?
None so far - the few start ups have not shown anything new.
Its still a hollow plastic bb.
If it is in fact 'chemically identical' to crude oil, does this mean it can be used to produce plastics etc? This would at least be useful and require a much smaller scale of operation, rather than simply wasting it by burning it as usual.
I'm sure you can. Wikipedia has a long entry on bioplastics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic
My educated guess is that this algae oil is like extracting potash from seawater, theoretically feasible, but no one is yet making a profit from it.
A plethora of small cap start up companies have been working on many solutions to the energy crisis, few of them will ever make a profit for their investors, nor do they provide affordable energy products. A few companies might do well amongst many companies destined to fail. Most new businesses do not make it.
It's hard to tell where they are going that is different, but one possibility is to have cyanobacteria produce long-chain hydrocarbons directly rather than through triglycerides which are transesterified to make biodiesel.
This was linked before on Drumbeat. Company working on genetically engineered bacteria like e. coli to directly produce hydrocarbons. No photosynthesis so you'll have to give it some nutrient feedstock. The economics are similar to fermentation with yeast, but you have the advantage of no energy-intensive distillation. Also, no transesterfication needed as with biodiesel.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece
Here's some skepticism: Follow the EROEI. These guys are quick to point out that the cyanobacteria conduct photosynthesis so the sun is their main energy source. However, the organsisms still need phosphate and other nutrients. How energy intensive is it to get a sufficient quantity of nutrients into the feed solution and to get the nutrients in a form the cyanobacteria can use? I don't know the answer to this, but I noticed in the article they say this:
Since they're looking to sell off by-products as well, that says to me low EROEI. My evidence is that making ethanol from corn only has a positive EROEI if the by-products are used in animal feed. Otherwise, you're looking at a net negative. If these guys are looking for something else sell in order to make it "commercially viable", I bet they're in the red on energy.
I agree that if the situation is that, "Also crucial to making the green crude commercially viable is to use the byproducts other than oil from the algae", then they are looking a bit suspect. However, I sense that people generally believe that any manufacturing process must be viable based only on the production of it's primary product. This may have been true during the beginning and the middle of "The Age of Oil" but, it is going to be increasingly less so as we move towards the end of the Oil Age. I suspect that as energy becomes more expensive, ALL products/byproducts of manufacturing processes are going to be examined for their value. Grandma's old adage "Waste not, want not", will ring truer than ever.
Alan from the islands
Violinist -
At the risk of being repetitive, the thoughts I have on the general subject of algae-to-fuel schemes are the same ones I have already expressed several times on this site. And that is:
Unless someone can demonstrate that they are able grow strains of 'fuel rich' algae at a high rate and in a stable manner in open ponds rather than closed transparent bioreactors, then there is little to be optimistic about algae as a large-scale fuel source.
Large bioreactors made of metal are expensive enough, but the cost of ones made of photo-stable transparent plastic would be prohibitive on a large scale. One really has to try to visualize what these things would look like when scaled up to full commercial size. There is nothing outlandish about a square mile's worth of open ponds (done all the time), but just try to visualize a square mile of transparent plastic bioreactors. Such a monstrosity would probably consumer a goodly chunk of the world's current yearly output of that type of transparent plastic.
The disposition of the dead biomass left over after the fuel has been extracted is a major technical and economic consideration. If an economical use for this stuff can be found, so much the better. But if not, then one is left with a large wet mass of highly biodegradable material that will have to be handled and disposed in some manner. And subjecting it to anaerobic digestion with methane production is only a partial solution, because a considerable amount of residue will still remain.
Nor would it be wise to gloss over the nutrient requirements, some claims of nitrogen fixation notwithstanding. What you can do in a carefully controlled laboratory pilot plant and what you can do in a large open pond are two very different things.
While algae-to-fuel is a worthwhile avenue of research, we are very far from having anything coming close to a commercially viable scheme.
If you can do it in an open pond, GO. If you have to do it in a transparent bioreactor, NO GO.
Thanks for summing it up so succinctly, joule. Don't worry about being repetitive, these stories about wonder-fuels from algae pop up with great regularity. They're all variations on the same basic idea and the flaws are almost always the same. I think it was the prominence of this one in a 'mainstream' newspaper, and the length of the article which got my attention.
You make a good point about the need for plastic for the bioreactors. It's another receeding horizon as the price of the oil needed for its manufacture increases. Presumably these plants will also need huge supplies of water, especially if the process is done in open ponds (evaporation losses), if they're to produce a significant quantity of oil.
As with all schemes like this, I'll remain skeptical until they're in use on a significant commercial scale.
Missouri County Approves $141 Million Bonds for Algae-Biodiesel Scheme.
I'm assuming most of the remaining biomass will be used to produce ethanol.
I live a couple counties over from the proposed location, and had not heard about this until now. Saline County Missouri is not populous or wealthy (from 2000 census: 24000 people and a median household income of $33000). If I was a county resident I think I would be very pissed that the county's economic development efforts were being used on an extreme gamble like this...
I found a bit of info with a little digging around. Here is info on the parent company, Green Star Products: http://www.greenstarusa.com/
The article lists EcoAlgae USA, LLC - but it does not appear to have a web presence except mention in articles about this project. Perhaps the LLC was newly created exclusively for this project.
These other articles provide more info on the deal:
http://quotes.freerealtime.com/dl/frt/N?art=C2008073100213b8588&SA=Busin...
and
http://www.marshallnews.com/story/1449096.html
which has this quote from the Marshall-Saline Development Corporation Executive Director...
Yeah, sure...
Seems to me that bonds are loans and somebody has to pay them off eventually - if the algae plant goes belly up then somebody pays. Either the county taxpayers, or the bond defaults and the investors loose out and Saline County has a much harder time in the future raising funds to attract more conventional businesses.
Greg in MO
In all fairness, they seem to have achieved pretty good results in their Montana Demonstration Facility.
http://www.greenstarusa.com/news/08-05-09.html
Biobutanol would make more sense than ethanol. I already know someone who has cultured algae fuel using strains available to him at his university. A two car garage sized algae lab can create more biofuel than a football field full of soybeans. If we're talking about closed systems, you need a big input of CO2 so it's the perfect carbon sequestration technology for smokestacks at power plants. Algae can also grow from treated sewage waste.
Some good points on the enclosed vs open pond systems.
The leftover biomass from the processing must be cycled back into the system to preserve as many growth nutrients in the system as possible. People running such a system would be out to remove only C and H from the system to the extent possible.
r4neom -
Well yes, you can attempt to recycle biomass back to the reactors to recover the nitrogen and phosphorus, which typically constitute but few weight percent of the total biomass. However, in doing so, you are also recycling back a much larger amount of highly biodegradable material. What then becomes of it?
Unless completely sterile conditions are maintained (possible in a bioreactor but not in a large pond), then that biomass will make for a very attractive food supply for all manner of indigenous microorganisms. As they consume that biomass, they will deplete the dissolved oxygen in the medium where the algae is being grown and also compete with the algae for nutrients (not to mention clog up the medium and thereby making it more opaque to the sunlight vital to algae growth.
Even if sterile conditions were to be maintained, we still have the question: what eventually becomes of all that dead algae biomass, even after the nutrients are extracted? Maybe you can dry it and sell it as food, or maybe do something else with it. Regardless, SOMETHING has to be done with it, and unless a clear cost-effective pathway for this material is developed, it leaves a gaping hole in the entire concept of large-scale algae to fuel.
I didn't mean to imply that it was easy, just that it was necessary to put everything back into a balanced system that came out of it.
The conceptual issue is folks trying to treat a farm as a factory without analyzing all the inputs and outputs properly, and the inputs *must* equal the outputs both in quantity and kind or the whole thing falls over.
Purifying the product and feeding everything left over back into the system (after appropriate processing) is a well established method for simplifying the balance equations.
Well, I have no knowledge of algae or farming whatsoever, so correct me if this is a silly question, but couldn't the biodegradeable waste be sold as a form of compost to help restore soil nutrients? If it could be sold to farmers at a lower price than traditional NPK fertilisers, then there would be a ready market for it and the sales of such would help to balance the cost of buying in nutrients to grow the algae...
Would this work?
Yes,
Or it could be gasified (for ethanol) with the waste ash being used as a soil amendent.
Ahhh, but something has to put the micro and macro element into the pond in the 1st place. The P comes from somewhere.
When I see these biofuel schemes I have to wonder what the efficiency of photosynthesis is compared to, say, photovoltaics. Ignoring the form of the produced energy I would guess that you could safely get something like five to ten times the useable energy from just about any (photovoltaic or thermal) electricity producing process.
Also it has been stated here before that open ponds will lend themselves to evolutionary changes of single cell organisms to satisfy their needs not your fuel requirements.
When I see these biofuel schemes I have to wonder what the efficiency of photosynthesis is compared to, say, photovoltaics.
My profile has some info on that. But yea, your gut feeling is a good one.
Why couldn't it come from sewage plants?