384 comments on DrumBeat: August 5, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
384 comments on DrumBeat: August 5, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
- Some predictions on the forthcoming Russian-Ukrainian gas 'crisis'
- The US stimulus and "green jobs" for wind energy
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 13th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“What people need to hear loud and clear is that we're running out of energy in America.”
—George W. Bush, May 2001
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
From ASPO’s Peak Oil Review for August 4th concerning oil for the entire arctic:
Will someone please explain this to me? If 11.8 billion barrels represents the 50% confidence level, would that not also be the “mean” to be expected from the Arctic?
But for just one province their logic seems to be even more convoluted.
Now I would not quibble with their 95% estimate that at least no oil at all can be found there. But if 50% probability stands at .27 billion barrels, how can they estimate that the “mean” is 27 times that amount?
The author of this piece is David Hughes, who spent 32 years as a geoscientist for the Geological Survey of Canada. I would have to emphatically agree with him on his last sentence.
Ron Patterson
I have never understood why anyone gives much credibility to the USGS arctic oil report considering they found all of this oil with a pencil and a calculator. I wonder if they would calculate a little gasoline into my gas tank.
My husband knows the head of the USGS....gave presentation in the same venue for Texas Utilities. He describes him as a "company" man...meaning he will say all the right politically correct things. In other words, he is not a "true" scientist.
It makes it tough for we Average Joes and Janes to draw final conclusions: Are we in strife yet? Do we have time to sort out our kid's future? And it doesn't help that oil has dropped back under $120, with numerous media predictions of double-digit numbers by Christmas.
The headline, "World Running Out Of Affordable Oil" is a ways off yet.
Regards, Matt B
Just passed 500km on the new motorbike and still LOVIN' IT!!!
Ride safe Matt: http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/Bikesafe/Bikesafe2000/ridingtips.htm
;-)
Consider a lottery ticket.
The 50% "confidence level" payoff is zero.
The expected payoff is maybe 30 cents - infinitely greater.
You encounter this situation whenever you have a skewed distribution of possibilities. In other words, whenever it is probably nothing, but it could be a jackpot.
You have to understand the difference between the median and the mean, but given the lack of reliable data, it probably doesn't make much difference.
The included tables indicate there is a 95% probability that at least zero oil resources exists...
Heck, I will go one step further than that. I will say that there is a 100% probability that at least zero oil resources exists. What's the alternative? Negative oil resources?
It's the return of "fuzzy math."
Energy calculations are full of fuzzy math and fuzzy logic especially EROEI. This is my pet theme as most regulars here know.
Careful.. some pets are biters.
One more thing to blame Bush for. There's nothing wrong with fuzzy math, or fuzzy logic.
Spend a lot of money and energy looking for non-existent oil - voila, negative energy!
Ron,
Why don't you just email the USGS and ask then what formulas they use to calculate mean values of potential oil reserves?
Ron, again thx for sharing
Generally are these risked or unrisked reserves?
Re. West Greenland – East Canada
..50 % probability that .26 billion barrels........ that is 50 % probability that approximately 260 million barrels (approx. 4 days global use at present rates).
Would any commercial operator(s) go after such a small prize?
This considering the cost of development and logistics challenges for the area.
This is not a gaussian distribution; the tail end of the distribution is where all the action is. A 5% probability of at least 34.5 billion barrels(more than 3.5 trillion USD if we agree oil will not drop significantly below $100/bbl in this timeframe) is well worth a look.
It doesn't matter if the prize is small. If the cost of producing that oil(including opportunity cost) is less than it's worth it will be produced. If the time spent picking up a dime from the ground is worth less to you than the dime you do it, otherwise you just move along.
Actually, Rigzone says there a trillion barrels of oil in Venezuela, and we have 800 billion barrels in domestic oil shale. The Venezuela stuff can be extracted at about $1 a barrel, and the shale at $30 a barrel (says Shell).
Oil is not the problem. People are.
Millard, you remind me of Gabriel Garcia Marquez' character, Jose Arcadio Buendia, in his enchanting tale of magical realism, One Hundred Years of Solitude:
Millard,
please explain your flow rate assumptions for Venezuela and Bakken formation. That is, how fast ramp up, max flow rate and time to sustain max.
Surely if you think that 'oil is not a problem' you have a reality based model about the flow rates. After all, flow rates matter - not the reserves themselves.
Then please explain how 'people' are the problem.
Inquiring minds want to know.
"The Venezuela stuff can be extracted at about $1 a barrel,... Oil is not the problem. People are."
Thanks for the best laugh I've had in a while by providing this wonderful example of why "People are" most certainly the "problem."
Heading Out posted a Rigzone article right on this site a few days back about Venezuela. That is what Rigzone said. About 20 percent of the heavy stuff can be extracted at that price. Seems low to me too, but HO thought it was worth posting. Rigzone seems to know their stuff.
Shell is not talking about Bakken, but Colorado oil sands. $30 a barrel. Just Google "Shell" and "shale" and you will come across it.
Of course, it would take years to ramp up. In the energy world, everything takes a decade. The point is, there are enormous reserves out there (1.8 billion barrels combined in Venezuela and U.S. shale). But the idea we face a crisis is probably not true.
Demand is falling as we speak. Sheesh, the US could cut 9 mbd from world market demand (over time) and raise our living standards at the same time (indeed, almost inevitably raise our own living standards, as US dollars stayed in our economy instead of going to Dubai's). (We use about 20 mbd, 70 percent for transportation. The EVs and high mpg cars coming onstream could radically reduce that use, over the next 10 years.
If gasoline stays above $5 a gallon, EVs will spread worldwide.
World liquids production is still rising.
Maybe that is why oil is tanking so hard. We just might see $60 before $160. And we might not see $160 for another generation.
Hi Millard,
OIL SHALE IS NOT OIL, NOR IS IT SHALE, AND THE EROEI FOR OIL SHALE STINKS AND WILL ALWAYS STINK, EVEN WHEN OIL HIT $1,000 PER BARREL
The World Energy Council makes the following assessment about the potential of oil shale energy:
“If a technology can be developed to economically recover oil from oil shale, the potential is tantalisingly enormous. If the containing organic material could be converted to oil, the quantities would be far beyond all known conventional oil reserves. Oil shale in great quantities exists worldwide: including in Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Estonia, France, Russia, Scotland, South Africa, Spain, Sweden and the USA.
The term ‘oil shale’ is a misnomer. It does not contain oil nor is it commonly shale. The organic material is chiefly kerogen and the "shale" is usually a relatively hard rock, called marl. Properly processed, kerogen can be converted into a substance somewhat similar to petroleum. However, it has not gone through the ‘oil window’ of heat (nature’s way of producing oil) and therefore, to be changed into an oil-like substance, it must be heated to a high temperature. By this process the organic material is converted into a liquid, which must be further processed to produce an oil which is said to be better than the lowest grade of oil produced from conventional oil deposits, but of lower quality than the upper grades of conventional oil.
There are two conventional approaches to oil shale processing. In one, the shale is fractured in-situ and heated to obtain gases and liquids by wells. The second is by mining, transporting, and heating the shale to about 450oC, adding hydrogen to the resulting product, and disposing of and stabilising the waste. Both processes use considerable water. The total energy and water requirements together with environmental and monetary costs (to produce shale oil in significant quantities) have so far made production uneconomic. During and following the oil crisis of the 1970’s, major oil companies, working on some of the richest oil shale deposits in the world in western United States, spent several billion dollars in various unsuccessful attempts to commercially extract shale oil.
Oil shale has been burned directly as a very low grade, high ash-content fuel in a few countries such as Estonia, whose energy economy remains dominated by shale. Minor quantities of oil have been obtained from oil shale in several countries at times over many years.
With increasing numbers of countries experiencing declines in conventional oil production, shale oil production may again be pursued. One project is now being undertaken in north-eastern Australia, but it seems unlikely that shale oil recovery operations can be expanded to the point where they could make a major contribution toward replacing the daily consumption of oil worldwide.
Perhaps oil shale will eventually find a place in the world economy, but the energy demands of blasting, transport, crushing, heating and adding hydrogen, together with the safe disposal of huge quantities of waste material, are large. On a small scale, and with good geological and other favourable conditions, such as water supply, oil shale may make a modest contribution but so far shale oil remains the ‘elusive energy’.”
The 2007 GAO study concluded that, “it is possible that in 10 years from now, the oil shale resource could produce 0.5 million to 1.0 million barrels per day.” But the GAO noted that the development of oil shale faces key challenges, including: “(1) controlling and monitoring groundwater, (2) permitting and emissions concerns associated with new power generation facilities, (3) reducing overall operating costs, (4) water consumption, and (5) land disturbance and reclamation.”
Walter Youngquist of the Colorado School of Mines provides a detailed history and analysis of attempts to develop Colorado’s oil shale. After spending billions of dollars, industry has terminated oil shale operations due to a low net energy recovery and a lack of water resources.
Finally, anyone with common sense who has seen oil shale can look at the little bit of dry carbon embedded in marmal rock and see this oil shale stuff ain't goin nowhere.
What exactly do "atleast no oil exist" means? Is there anything like -ve oil?
No, that's the median.
In the discrete case the mean(also called expectation value) is the sum of all outcomes weighted by their respective probability.
A lottery in which you have a 99% probability of winning one dollar and a 1% probability of winning nothing has exactly the same mean payoff as a lottery in which you have a 1% probability of winning 99 dollars and a 99% probability of winning nothing. The median of the first case is 1 dollar and the median of the latter is zero.
In the continuous case the sum becomes an integral and the probability becomes a probability density function. If the probability distribution happens to be a nice symmetric shape like the gaussian(aka normal) distribution the mean will happily coincide with the median. If the probability distribution is assymetric that's usually not true(though it is certainly possible to craft an assymetric distributions for which the mean and median coincide).
The size distribution of oil fields is of a very lopsided kind called a power-law distribution; most of the oil comes from a small number of very large fields, not from the very large number of small fields. In the mean estimate of oil in the arctic most of the mean is not from the small fields you are likely to find, but from the giant fields that you are unlikely to find.