China July crude imports in biggest fall since Jan 05
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7716081

OK.

This is the number we've been waiting for.

It's a cca. 500 tbpd drop from June. It is not due to prices. It's the Olympics. 500 tbpd drop ---> lower demand ---> lower proces ---> strengthening dollar (petrodollar effect).

Look for prices to rebound in September when Chnina returns.

So, between lower demand in China and the present geopolitical troubles, September will likely be BAU -- i.e. resumption of a climb to higher oil prices.

Just in time for the onset of autumn and winter in the northern hemisphere.

Bundle up folks.

The oil bull is dead. Even today, nothing doing.
Eventually, demand for oil is elastic. We are there.

Time will tell.

I am now the proud owner of some DBO. Purchased today @ 43.00

what is a DBO?

An ETF that is long oil futures.

Millard, just for the record: How low is it going to go and what is a reasonable price for oil in 2008? In 2010?

Peak Oil Tarzan- I am scared of your moniker, and, of course, who knows exactly what the price of any commodity will be in 2010.
So with some trembling, let me say my stong sentiment is the oil bull has been gored, and hard. Demand is withering. The EVs are coming online.
In the future, look for a rough replay of oil prices after the 1979-80 spike. A long secular decline. Up and downs, to be sure, but the general drift is southerly. The $147 a barrel was a blow-out top, a speculator's heaven.
True, thug states control the world's oil today, and that makes things difficlt. On the other hand, the alterntaive technologies coming online today are wonderful.
The GM Volt, and similar cars, mean that oil demand can fall continously worldwide, even as we obtain higher living standards. Such cars are game-changes, OPEC-killers, death rays for speculators. And they are coming. The only way to stop them is to crash oil prices. And that may happen.

you have presented various arguments that demand is going to decline. and surely it will longer term. are you claiming that the price decline in the past few weeks is due to reduced demand ?

how 'bout supply ?

GM claims 70,000 GM Volts by 1/1/2012. USA has more than 240 million registered vehicles.

Project oil production on 1/1/2012 for Mexico, UK, Norway, Denmark, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Yemen, Venezuela, etc. Also project # of registered cars in China on 1/1/2012. Kashagan in Kazakhstan will not yet be on-line at that date (but close ?).

Your claims are *WAY* overblown.

Alan

Is Iran a "thug state" ????
Who have they invaded in the last thousand years?
I thought the Iranian women shopped at Victoria Secrets and wore makeup...maybe you know something I dont?
Doesnt Canada have oil and sell it too America?
And how about Mexico? you tellin me I gotta be worried
about Juan Valdez and his (peqito)Sp. for "little" burro?
Gosh and golly gee willikers Wally!!!...you got me thinkin now.
I sure hope the Canucks dont cut off that maple syrup
at $60.00 a gallon...ehh!
Millie, Iam shaking my Persian rug in anger right now.
That goes to show how you convinced me that Iran is
a thug state....Inshallah! and Allah Akbar!
And Iam boycotting Taco Bell too hombre!
Those thug Canadians who use Canadian coins must be
that 5th column Iam always hearin about ehh?

(No Burro's,Taco's,Iranian women,Canadians with Maple
leaf hockey shirts were harmed in this dramatization)

Yes, EV's are coming online. But Winter is coming faster, China may be 'back online' in a month, and Cantarell, Prudhoe and North Sea are listing hard to port- taking on water. etc, etc, etc..

The falling price might look like a reprieve, but unless there was news of significant new production somewhere, I'd say the price can be anywhere it wants, and we won't be able to avoid the hurt now.

The GM Volt, and similar cars, mean that oil demand can fall continously worldwide, even as we obtain higher living standards.

I was recently reminded of a statement I made when Chrysler(who was struggling at the time) first released the Caravan/Voyager line.
"This vehicle is a game changer, it should be enough to fix Chrysler and pay back its loans."
My roomie at the time chided me about that but loaded up on Chrysler stock anyway, he is still living comfortably on the proceeds, I believe.
A radio program I heard recently claimed that GM had worked on a gas powered, electrically generator driven vehicle, sponsored by the good ol' USA, decades ago.
While the results were impressive, as so often happens, the program died an ignoble death.
IMO you will be finding greater benis from this combo than previously conjectured.

Volts, Prius plug-ins, and ramped domestic production of base Prius are coming in a few years. In the mean time there are many good choices for a fuel efficient auto including the Corolla and Focus. Other folks are simply parking their SUVs if they have a second more fuel efficient vehicle to drive. Strong demand for some models of fuel efficient used cars has actually caused price appreciation (not the customary continuous price depreciated normally expected with used vehicles). So far we've just skimmed some fat off the oil demand stew. The next dip could take a much larger volume. The current fleet of vehicles is certainly large but the median age of a vehicle in this country is approximately 9 years so about half the fleet will be replaced in the next decade. I have no doubt this batch will be far more efficient than the existing fleet. If the U.S. manages to achieve a measly 4 mpg (20%) increase in fuel economy domestic oil demand would fall by nearly 10% and there is little reason to think that number cannot be drastically higher should EV technology evolve as an affordable alternative and I see little reason to doubt it will not.

domestic oil demand would fall by nearly 10%

Not up to TOD standards.

Of the 20.x million b/day burned by the USA, slightly over 9 (9.0 to 9.3 million b/day in 2007 depending on time of year from memory) are burned by cars & SUVs. Increased fleet fuel economy by 10% over ten years will be slightly better than the increase in VMT (Vehicle miles traveled), but if we do not shrink VMT (as we are doing), then this savings will be just a couple of percent of USA oil use.

Not much better than statistical noise quite frankly.

The USA increases population by 0.8% or so every year. Add sprawl, economic growth ? and just driving more fuel efficient cars WILL NOT BE ENOUGH !

Best Hopes for Non-Oil Transportation,

Alan

Yer' talkin from yer tushie.

"Even today, nothing doing."
What's so special about today? Keep trying to grow those long-range sensors, bud. You might need them.

Well, Millie of Fillie, I'm not oil expert but I saw this price cycle at the beginning of the year. I didn't think it would go as high as $147, maybe $130 to $140, and then fall back to around $105 to $115 in the August soft season.

Daily price fluctuations prove nothing, however it does speak volumes for those that chose to predict the trends on this basis. How do these people walk anywhere when they are always looking at the tops of their shoes?

I have a high degree of certainty we won't see double digit prices again. If we do, you are hoping for very rough times. Like all the rest, we now see difficult times ahead with the winter heating season.

And I can't believe the mass stupidity as the $CDN gets downgraded because oil prices are dropping. Hello folks! It's still over $100/bbl and the energy export business is quite healthy. Market Intelligence, another oxymoron fading into the sunset...

How much of this is Olympics and how much is reduced demand due to economic recession/slowdown? If this is predominantly a function of the Olympics, then it is time to go long oil. Otherwise, I wouldn't be forecasting a resumption of oil increases.

In the case of China it is all Olympics-related. There is a worldwide slowdown/recession, but not in Chine. Chinese demand falling in July is 100% Olympics. It has been rising and their GDP growth was 10.1% in Q2. It's voluntary demand destruction... but a temporary one.

4-500 thousand barrels is 1% of net exports. With an elasticity of -0.04 it is a 25% prompt reduction in the prices.

That's it folks, the game is up.

I'm not sure how you can be so certain that it is all Olympics. Take a look at the Shanghai stock exchange.

Yep

The Chinese are very shrewd people. You can bet your life on it that they will ramp up fairly quickly after the games are done to try and make up for lost money/production.

The shrewd thing to do is fight inflation. China was falling into the inflation trap like the rest of Asia, and its government did everything it could to crash the stock market and speculators by forcing banks to do what American banks don't do: keep cash on hand. Beijing may not originally have intended the Olympics as a way to slam the emergency brakes on the economy, but it can be adapted for that purpose.

The Para-Olympics follow the Olympics Sept. 6-17 and all will not be back to normal till Sept. 18.

Alan

You are right. Look for prices to rebound in late September early October.

Marco: True indeed the Chinese are shrewed people
collectively.
I will express that also as a culture of people they
tend to play the stock markets like non Asians would
play bingo or the lottery.
Please dont mistake my remarks as racist...any casual
observence of the Chinese public will show this to be
a severe under statement.
Its right up there with women in general liking shoes
or mens facination with womens breasts.
Turning the Chinese into consumers will be as easy as
making worms eat dirt. America was started by puritans
and minimalists and there was a learning curve to the
rampant consumerism you see today...China wont be near
as difficult.

Imports were down by 295,000 bpd. Net exports are approximately 42 million bpd.
So I get drop in imports = 295,000/42,000,000 = 0.7% of net exports.
If elasticity is -0.04, then reduction in price should be around 17.5% (0.7/0.04 = 17.5).
I think we are close to the bottom here in terms of price.

Imports were down by 295,000 bpd. Net exports are approximately 42 million bpd. So I get drop in imports = 295,000/42,000,000 = 0.7% of net exports.

If you account for the 8% y.o.y. growth than it is 350,000 barels. And net exports are 45 mbpd (the top 20 exporters export 42 mbpd, but that's only 93% of the total).

So it is 0.8 of net exports. Elasticity being at -0.04 that is 20%

Anyway, it's in the ballpark. All this happened between 11th July - 25th July. The rest of the price decline was dou to the change in EUR:USD (in other words the petrodollar effect).

The market works just fine. (In the short run.)

It is all visible here:

First came the drop in demand, afterwards the strengthening of the dollar.

Why did you use the WTI spot for August 4 and not August 8?
On August 8, the WTI spot was around $114.
That is a decline of around 6% (nominal) for the July 25- August 8 period and not 0.9%.

Because I didn't want to litter this thread with too many charts. You can find the original post here: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4397

There are some other charts there (and among those also the one you were asking) as well as some reasoning.

:-)

Since July 25, oil has dropped around 8% in US $ (it is at $113 today), whereas the Euro has dropped around 5% versus the US $. So I agree that the bulk of the drop in price since July 25 is due to the weakening of Euro.

What is your opinion of gold? It has crashed quite a bit today.

I don't know anything of precious metals, sorry.

I'm into energy security, thus oil, gas and coal interest me (as well as do alternative technologies). As for gold... I'm surprised a bit. But since I don't really follow that market, I cannot form a reasonable opinion.

Harry Truman once said, "Give me a one-handed economist! All my economists say, On the one hand ... on the other hand."

So ... where are we?

The China issue is pretty straightforward. The Chinese have been promising 'clear, smog free skies' for the Olympics for several years. They finally had to bite the bullet and shut down factories and get cars and smoky diesel trucks off the road. This will end as soon as the Olympics are done and the international pussycats (the news media) are gone.

In China, retail prices for liquid fuels is set by the government. Sinopec must buy expensive crude, refine it and resell the products at prices that are below cost. The government pays Sinopec and other refiners a rebate but this is not particularly profitable and is untenable when prices are skyrocketing. There have been shortages of gas and diesel in China .... that are unrelated to the Olympics. They relate to the low prices fixed by the government.

I don't THINK the Chinese have been that active in the futures market, preferring to buy in the spot market. Why? The Chinese have an aversion to complex markets. Markets have been unfriendly to the Chinese, see the Shanghai stock market. The Chinese bankers are still smarting over their 'investments' in Wall Street Banks. The Chinese tend to view international markets - that don't play by Chinese government 'rules' - as being hostile the China. They are right, of course. I believe one reason the Chinese have accumulated such a large stake in US currency and US denominated debt, and have pegged their currency through thick and thin to the dollar, is because of a fundamental Chinese fear of US currency speculators. Their fear is understandible; the speculators beginning with George Soros and his raid on the Bank of England in 1992 can wipe out governments' currency reserves! Currency pirates have raided the cash reserves of Mexico (twice), Russia, Thailand, Indonesia, S. Korea, Argentina, and Brazil. China rather would just pay cash and walk away with the product, thank you ...

Now ... price of crude in what context. There is fundamental disagreement about the current state of affairs in both the US and Eurozone economies: inflation or deflation. First, some definitions. Inflation is an increase in the amount of a currency and CREDIT in relation to the goods available for purchase. Deflation is the opposite, a decrease in the amount of currency and credit available.

This is important, because in the context of deflation, the decline of ten or twenty percent or more ... in the (nominal) price of any commodity say oil may represent a contextual increase; that is, the relation between the value of the currency and the commodity has the commodity increasing in value. In other words, if the dollar was to decline in value to one tenth of today's value (in a short period of time) yet the crude price averaged $114 a barrel, obviously crude would be a (nominal) drop- dead bargain.

There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides of the inflation/deflation topic. Doug Noland is very articulate in supporting the inflation scenario:

http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/commentary/creditbubblebulletin?art...

Inflation is simple: the prices keep going up! Jean-Claude Trichet and several Federal Reserve governors agree, that we are facing incipient inflation.

On the other hand, there is an even more convincing argument to be made for deflation:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/deflation-in-fiat-reg...

The biggest factor is the shrinkage of available credit ... worldwide! While ALL the central banks are pumping currency into the world economic system in order to keep the 'growth machine' going, little of that credit is reaching the parts of the economies where productive activities take place. In the US, that area is in mortgages and real estate, ditto parts of Europe; demand for manufactured goods from Japan is declining; both long bond rates (US 30yr Treasury, mortgage and Investment grade securities) and short (LIBOR) are rising, which means credit is hard and harder to get. Another factor is declining employment. The unemployed cannot demand wage increases nor can they afford gasoline - at any price.

In a deflationary regime, 'things' (like oil) will become 'cheaper' when priced in a currency, but will actually become more expensive as that curreny becomes harder and harder to get. I believe this will become more apparent beginning next year as more banks fail and the cumulative effects of that and the failure of the 'bailouts' to trickle down and really increase production and earning. In the US, one more big bailout will be the end of US government stimulus ... party is then over. (US hasn't really spent any money on Freddie or Fannie ... yet. It's just talked about it.)

>>>>>>>

An upshot in oil; the US and the West MUST coordinate on interest rates and credit. OPEC and the other producers are absolutely dependent on the consuming world for money and credit, without money, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Kuwait, Iran ... are paupers! The hardest thing to find in any business is a CUSTOMER. These countries have no economies or production to speak of ... other than pumping and selling oil. They cannot even grow sufficient food ... or any food ... in then case of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait!

If the US was smart and tough and didn't have a president who was a tough- talking wimp, they would repay all of the outstanding dollar denominated debt in foreign hands ($5 trillion or so) with dollars. The Treasury would print as many dollars needed to repay ALL the out-of-the-country debt. (the foreign holders would have no choice to take this deal, this or nothing). The US could then eliminate the dollar and make a new currecy - The Obama - that would not trade overseas (just like the Chinese Renmimbi). Sorry Saudi Arabia, the oil party is over!

We could trade the Saudis one shipload of food for a shipload of oil. Five shiploads of food for fifty shiploads of oil - or any number of our choosing. We have enough oil (as do the Brits and the rest of Europe) to withstand our side of a credit embargo. I guarantee you Saudi Arabia cannot go a year without food or the dollars to buy it! Europe could do the same thing and not even bother with inventing a 'new Euro'. Since 'Euro' is a meaningless currency (which country backs it, exactly?) and China would never risk trading its own currency .. the producers would have little to trade oil for. Mexican Peso? Rupee? South African Rand? Yen? Gimme a break. The Yen is even more worthless than the Peso. If credit is closely held to the 'consuming' countries ... well, what exactly is being consumed? Anyway? Money - real, valuable money - is just as scarce as oil is becoming.

... none of this would never happen, it's a fantasy. The western economies will go into a severe credit deflation beginning next year and the bosses will wring their hands. Oil prices will decline in nominal terms but the relative price will continue to increase.

Rambling over ... (Edited for spelling and grammar.)

I read it. :-)

You make some good points, so I think I'm gonna rate you up. Bartering food for energy is one of the things to come, and count me in the deflation camp - though I think we will see inflation until 2010 and deflation with rising energy costs (or stagflation, if you will) afterwards.

You are dead wrong about Russia though. The are able to grow their food and happen to have (not very energy effective) factories as well. Plus they have virtually all the raw materials they need. The EU is worse off w/o russia than the other way round.

Other than that, still an interesting analysis.

No surprise there. It is the only thing that made sense. Imports should rise in September, however I don't expect them to go back to where they were before.

Would the Chinese maintain the measures of taking cars of the road and close factories to increase air quality for the Paralympic athletes as well??

I don't think they're doing it for the athletes -- I think they're doing it for the press corps & public image. How much press coverage will there be of the Para-olympics? My guess is the Chinese's main concern will be that air quality doesn't get so much worse during the Para-olympics that it becomes a news item.

Yes. The Olympics and Paralympics are a package deal.

Alan

What I'm wondering is...where is it going? OPEC supposedly boosted production, so where is it going? Not to China, and not to other parts of Asia, it would seem.

Isn1t supposedly a keyword here? Do we really know how much oil these countries export, let alone, produce? I mean net oil, EROEI adjusted.

I'm not sure OPEC production increased. Their numbers seem 1-2% inflated to me.

Some buyers previously priced out of the market coming back in?

If you've followed the oil biz for more than 10 years, it is interesting to note that OPEC lying about production was accepted and expected when the quota busting went on.

FF

Which also happens to tie into the massive increase in OPEC reserves in the middle 1980s. OPEC has interests, and truth has never been one of them.

I think that the current price runup kicked off in June last year. Following a price decline in August, the average price for September rebounded by more than 10%.

I'm looking forward to seeing WTI at USD 150 in November.

I created a price projection table last year (under revision at the moment) that had average prices at USD 120 in 2008, USD 180 in 2009 and USD 270 in 2010. We shall see.

Prices are rather irrelevant in the short term. What matters is monthly prices and - to an even greater extent quarterly and yearly averages. It's been UP. It is going to be up. No other place to go.

Declining net exports are the story, as you and Khebab pointed out excellently. At the moment I'm working on an extended version of your top 5 exporter export projections in the 2008-2015 window.

As for my price projections, I have been on track since last summer. I never faild by more than USD 1 and my projections were always for the naxt 6-12 months. I'm redoing the numbers this week and will tell you the results.

More people are paying attention to the net exports story. I'm in NYC this week, making our net exports presentation to a large investment firm.

Yes, it is interesting. I've been preaching this for a year and a half and people (and among those people: some investors) are just about to listen this summer.

The grapes of wrath.

Going over to the Dark Side are ya? Great, now investors with bags of still damp printed funny money are going to exacerbate the already volatile market. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

The invite came at an opportune time--it corresponded with our wedding anniversary. We have had a great time in the Big Apple--really nice hotel in the midtown area. New Yorkers probably could not have been friendlier.