162 comments on Georgia Conflict - Open Thread #3
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162 comments on Georgia Conflict - Open Thread #3
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GAIA Host Collective
The US has zero idea what we just lost here.
#1 The BTC pipeline.
"Let the people of the world judge events based on this true version of events, not the nonsense being reported in a biased and unfree western press. The fact of the matter is that Moscow is right and has done everything it possibly could to avoid conflict. The ones who started it were the Georgians, who now go whining to NATO.
NATO would do very well to remain silent and mind its own business, specially after lying about its expansion eastwards. Moscow is not afraid of NATO and has the capacity to neutralise any military situation to its advantage. However, it is not Moscow that is spoiling for a fight.
Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY
PRAVDA.Ru
mcgowanmc: I concure with your astute observations.
War and conflict have taken a more exaggerated turn
towards protection from real or perceived affronts to
a region or political entities security and access to
resources...(READ "OIL").
I greatly fear that what has been often discussed here on TOD as a result of the insertion of P.O. into
the matrix of world governments attempts to form allies and alliances and all the complexities invovled, will lead to chaos unimaginable only in
hindsight will a semblence of truth be found and even
with 20/20 perspective of hindsight...it will be open
for debate.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
;}
DJIA up 300 pts with the attack.
DJIA down 76 pts with the rout.
"The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony. The affront to Russia was extreme, but at the time Russia was weak. Oligarchs with outside money had grabbed control over Russian resources, and Russia was in dire straits and could not resist American imperialism.
Putin corrected the situation for Russia."
Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/080810_stupid.htm
Worse than a mistake, it's stupid
DJIA up 300 pts with the attack
DJIA down 76 pts with the rout
I find it even more telling the market was up "long"
the weekend when this all started on Friday the 8th.
And even more telling that oil is still dropping.
The juxtapostion of up 300 points on war and down
now 61.58 on rumors of a cease of hostilities,leads
one to believe the fat lady isnt gonna sing just yet.
(No fat opera ladies were harmed in this dramatization)
The fact of the matter is that Moscow is right and has done everything it possibly could to avoid conflict. The ones who started it were the Georgians, who now go whining to NATO.
I don't think you could ever consider invading another country and killing thousands of citizens "right", but it is highly likely Moscow did what it thought would best protect Moscow interests. There is alot of realpolitik in play that Bush has no fucking clue how to spell, let alone understand and participate in.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/152087
I think this article is probably a more accurate reasoning of what's happening. Russia wants back what it lost and will try everything in its power to regain it. Meanwhile, our clown of a president has ignored one of the most powerful nations on earth to focus on a bunch of rabble rousing criminals (al Quaeda) and the leader of a neutralized nation (Iraq). I think losing Georgia will be a disaster for the west from an energy perspective, but its our government's own fault.
I think I'm closer to your position than to most others here.
The American people have not been educated to understand that great powers normally have spheres of influence, and their extension can be construed as an act of war. We are taught to see all our conflicts as crusades of good against evil, which puts all rival powers in the Axis of Evil with no right to a sphere of influence. More alarmingly, it makes America's sphere of influence "Good" incarnate, and thus we are glad that our leaders aspire to make it worldwide, which it should never be.
We have a plausibly deniable sphere of influence, that manifests whenever we want to take credit for the accomplishments of a South Korea, but dissolves into "national self-determination" whenever we want to look the other way at genocide in Guatemala or the Israeli nuclear program.
Troops in 150 countries. Why is this not an issue in the presidential campaign? Because we know it's suicide to criticize it as long as American-occupied means "Good" in the voters' eyes.
Greg: Your position re Iraq is both popular and curious. The clown stumbles around yet manages to secure Iraq oil access for multinationals, something they wanted yet could not acheive for decades. Fortunes have been and will be made off Iraq, yet the whole thing is a huge example of incompetence. IYO which objective re Iraq was not reached? It appears to have worked out pretty well for the orchestrators and the connected.
Things are working now, but what happens if a person with a more nationalistic side (and nationalizing tendencies) becomes Prime Minister? The current friendly regime wants US troops to put out on a timetable ... a less friendly regime might want the oil comapnies to pull out.
Yes, but this whole thing would not be easy for anyone to pull off, clown or master strategist/genius. I just find the myth of the clown worrying about the evildoer Hussein to be a joke. It is amazing that in 2008 people still focus on what politicians say and not what they do.
Exactly. Everyone seems to know and recognize that politicians lie, but for some reason people accept their *stated* goals as their *actual* goals (and their *stated* beliefs as their *actual* beliefs.) Doesn't make much sense.
You even see this in MSM reporting. For example, the BBC will write an article about Iran and say that the US is opposing them because "the US believes Iran is making nuclear weapons" instead of the far more accurate "the US claims to believe that Iran is making nuclear weapons."
Once again, Regime Change in Iraq was stated US policy during Clinton/Gore and was brought to fruition under BushCo with the approval of Pelosi LLC. Regime Change in Iran was/is stated US policy since 1980. The Anti-Communist Crusade known as the Cold War was/is stated US policy toward Russia, and said policy continues despite Russia no longer being communist. US Imperial expansion was/is stated US policy since 1947-48, and achieving "global dominance" (and other similar phrasings) is currently stated US policy. All the above are bi-partisan policies and are fully promoted by the Propaganda and Indoctrination Systems--truths more people are becoming aware of, but the minority of those in the know is frightfully small.
I think one of the lessons Russia's leaders will learn is that Russia's future does NOT lie in "looking west" a la Peter the Great and a longstantding ideological battle within Russia for centuries. Europe needs Russia far more than Russia needs Europe. More interesting is the fact that Russia doesn't need the USA, but the USA needs Russia--hydrocarbons and other fundamental resources to be rapidly extracted and sold on the global market, which will serve to keep the prices of such cheaper than otherwise.
"the US claims to believe that Iran is making nuclear weapons."
Considering that US intelligence agencies do not think Iran is making nuclear weapons (NIE last year), even that is really not true. Perhaps something like "some extremists in the US who think they know better than their intelligence agencies claim to believe Iran might be making nuclear weapons..."
Hi Tim,
"The fact of the matter is that Moscow is right and has done everything it possibly could to avoid conflict. The ones who started it were the Georgians, who now go whining to NATO."
On the Russian side, this was a substantial operation, at the level of two divisions. There were two axes of advance, one through difficult territory, with naval support, and coordinated cyber attacks. This looks like months of planning, and it makes it difficult to argue that the Georgians "started it." In this context, the Russian practice of giving Russian passports to violent separatists who live in another country is highly provocative, because of the likelihood of deaths of these bogus citizens being used as a pretext for an attack, as it was. Because of this, we should be cautious about accepting Russian casualty reports among Russian citizens from Georgian action unless confirmed by another source.
It is natural at The Oil Drum to focus on the the Georgian pipeline. And in the long run, Georgia may be better off without the Ossetians and Abkhazis. However,the bigger issue, which the leaders of the Baltic countries, Poland, and the Ukraine see most clearly, is that there are other countries with Russian minorities, and these could serve as a pretext,also. In particular, what is the future of the Crimea, which is part of the Ukraine, but is still the base, for now, for the Russian Black Sea Fleet?
Dave
My perspective - Crimea will become part of Russia in the next 50 years. Ukraine proper will be split in two; western part - Ukraine, eastern part - Malorossia. They'll hate each other and Russia will get everything it wants mediating them.
Denying historical tendencies is like denying Peak Oil - they'll hit you anyway.
I agree. Only the western region of Ukraine is Ukranian. The Crimea and the line east of Kiev-Odessa is Russian. There is also the Kishinev region in Moldova. The Baltic states have nothing to fear as their initial nationalist snubbing of Russians and things Russian has played its course and a lot of Russians have already returned to Russia. Belarus was always an oddity as an independent state as there has never really been any Belarusian nationalist entity, and Minsk is as Russian a city as Moscow or St. Petersburg. The five Central Asian states have been Russian in essence ever since Russia first gained control over the region in one of the most non-violent acquisitions of territory ever made by an Empire to my knowledge. For them, the geographic pull of Moscow is natural and strong. So, when I look at this map, I see perhaps six still independent states of the former USSR in the year 2100: Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Western Ukraine (which will absorb the part of Moldova that doesn't rejoin Russia), Azerbaijan, and perhaps Georgia.
Dividing the world along ethnic lines would produce... interesting results. For example,
Link for map? Please.
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/images/ancestry2.jpg
All of Europe was divided along ethnic lines; Russia is no different. The dynamics of ethnicity in the former USSR/Russian Empire has always presented complex problems, and they became a focus of my studies of the USSR/Russia in the early 1990s. The region of conflict, the Caucasus, is a trove for linguists and ethnographers despite the movement of many ethno-national groups from the region. It's not my ideal to divide the world along ethnic lines; it seems to be a lower function of human nature that seeks to do so. Most people on the planet are mutts, but are loathe to admit it for a wide variety of reasons. Conversly, I proclaim my muttness as use it as a talking point. That most humans seem to favor division along ethnic lines is enough proof for me that humanity is far from civilized. It may well be that humanity and civilized are opposites that will never share the same side of the same coin.
The geographic and demographic pull of China may be stronger for the central Asian nations.
What will the population of Russia be in 2100 ? 80 million ?
Alan
Hi Alan--This map does an adequate job of showing why Central Asians are mosr likely to be drawn to Moscow than Beijing. The Tien Shan is a formidible mountain range and creates the rain shadow for the growing Takla Makan Desert. Both provide a formidible barrier to commerce and communication.
This pdf map shows Russia's birth rate for 1999, and given the resurgent economy, sane farming policy and vast resource base, I would expect Russia's population to be closer to 200 million by 2100, perhaps more if as I expect Chinese immigration becomes strong.
This last map shows the distribution of major ethnic groups in Central Asia. Note that only in eastern Khazakstan is there any significant overlap with China.
Yet China is actively building railroads connecting itself to Central Asia.
Standard gauge through Kazakhstan towards the EU (one branch south through Turkmenistan & Iran, the other north through Russia & Ukraine( under construction.
Change of gauge through Kyrgyz Republic (I believe, could be Tajikistan) being considered AFAIK.
And apparently firm plans from NW China through Tajikistan, NE panhandle of Afghanistan (very large copper deposit) and into Pakistan.
Iran is building into Afghanistan and plans to continue near northern border to Tajikistan. I wonder if a Central Asian Moslem Confederation might not develop ? Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Kyrgyz Republic, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Iran; all balancing between Russia & China. Certainly more in common with each other than Russia or China.
Demographics, <<1% of those now living will be alive in 2100. Most of those alive then will be grandchildren or more from those alive today.
So plenty of time to work out trends. Below replacement today,. 1.8 children/woman > 90% generational replacement. 0.9^3 > 73% after 3 generations. Hard to see much of an increase in population above today. "The cake is baked" for the next generation and massive changes will be required to reach 200 million by 2010.
It could happen, but I am doubtful, and I am unlikely to ever see it.
Best Hopes,
Alan
At some point in the chain of events the question "who started it" gets meaningless. Russia has been maintaining large army troops in the Caucasus for years, so their prompt response is hardly a surprise - they must have planned for such an event long time ago. It may also be argued that Georgia started it first with its long-standing anti-russian and pro-western policies and aspirations towards NATO.
In the end it is just a chess game for influence for TPTB. Looking from this perspective it can't be denied that in the grand schema of things the decision of the Georgian president to attack S.Osetia (and Russia by extension) would be viewed as a grave mistake, bordering utter stupidity IMO.
Dave,
There has been tensions in this region since 1991. Russia obviously analyzed all possible scenarios and planned accordingly. So they were ready, anything less would have been foolish. Yes Georgia started the war but Russia was ready - as any competent military should be - to pounce on the opportunity. They pounced like an 800 pound grizzly and sent the US trained and equiped army into a disorderly retreat. This was a great embarassment for the Pentagon.
The future of the Crimea is clear. It will return to Russia where the people of the Crimea want to be. Baltics and the Poland have nothing to fear unless they continue antagonizing Russia with Missile shields.
The baltics practice modern day aparthied hounding Russian people wiht their Language police - no joke- they go to your place of employment and if you don't speak Latvian or Estonian properly you lose your job and your employer is fined. People of Russian Heritage born in Latvia are not granted citizenship until they pass a test. Yet these states are admitted to EU and Nato, making a complete mockery of the EU claiming to consist of free democracies. However Russia has no interest in these states as they are banana republics with rapidly collapsing economies(I have lost a fortune recently in Latvia) Russia is offering large cash bonuses for ethnic Russians to immigrate which is picking up speed. If their is anything else you would like to know about this part of the world let me know, I lived their for quite a while and still travel their. Russia is a great country and the people are simply amazing. Russia and USA should be best friends but US foreign policy is beholden to special interests which lobby for baltics, Ukraine and Poland about historical grievances with Russia.
Dan
Here's wacky idea.
Why don't Russians....move back to Mother Russia--IT IS A GREAT COUNTRY!.. WITH AMAZING PEOPLE!
Or perhaps Russia is too small?
Let the Chechens, Tartars,(North Ossetians?), etc. have their OWN countries and maybe even their own opinions!
(BTW, can Russians posters PLEASE identify themselves? No need to be shy.)
:D
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your comments. I am sure that the events in Georgia will reassure the Baltic states that "they have nothing to fear," particularly with respect to issues related to the Russian minorities that were imposed on them during the Soviet occupation. I did visit Estonia with Finnish friends, and my impression was that Estonia is on track to become a smaller version of Finland. The per-capita GDP 50% larger than Russia's (closer to 2:1 if you do not count Russia's oil, gas, and coal income). These are the 2007 purchasing power parity numbers from the CIA's online factbook. Estonian exports consist almost entirely of manufactured products. I think the "banana republic" label is a better fit for Russia, considering its exports and air of thuggery.
It will become clearer over time whether the invasion of Georgia is a quick reaction by the Russians, or a previously planned campaign. "Quick" is not an adjective that has often been used for the Russian military. And the comments of the Humans Rights Watch representatives
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm
are completely at odds with the line of 1,500 (sometimes 2,000) civilans killed in Tskhinvaliy. Based on the information we have so far, I would vote for it being a planned invasion, complete with manufactured provocations and disinformation campaign. What is indisputible is that the episode evokes painful memories of the Soviet invasions of Eastern European countries and the barbarism that followed, particularly in the Baltics.
Dave
Dave,
The atrocities went both ways and the Latvians and Estonians were guilty of genocide on Jewish people, they were enthusiastic members of the SS. Pre-war Latvia had a large Jewish population and there are virtually none, they were gunned down by Latvians outside the capital Riga in a forest. Ironically the person who ordered the deportation of Latvians and Estonians was an ethnic Georgian - Stalin.
Ethnic Russians have always lived in Estonia and Latvia. Pre-war they were about 20-25% of the population. The number is now about 33% in Latvia because the Soviet Union sent people to work in the factories. Estonia is a country of 1.2 million and therefore relatively easy to reorient to market status and achieve quick results. Russia on the other hand is a titanic so it therefore took a long time and a strong hand(Putin) to turn it around. So on average Estonian and Latvian people have lived better than Russian people for last 16 years, until recently. Latvia's currency is about to be devalued and Estonias could also be. They adopted the American model of consumer driven economy and are running massive current account defecits. However unlike USA no one is interested in buying Latvian treasuries. They have to pay the borrowed money back! The situation in both economies is grim to say the least, the economy in Latvia has almost ground to a halt. If you took time to talk to some ethnic Latvians or Estonians you would find while they are elated to be free of Soviet Union a strong percent are no fan of capitalist model and actually prefer the security and stability(if consumer good impaired)of communism.
Estonia's GDP is 21,800, Latvia is 12000 and Russia's is 15,000 per capita. I would expect that to equalize this year or next as Russia's GDP in USD has been growing at 30% per year and I expect a slight fall in Estonias GDP. Latvia is just totally screwed(http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17420/) Russia's oil and gas sector is only 10% of GDP but I believe 75% of exports. Russia has no debt, 500 billion in reserves and a rapidly growing, IT, finance, telecom and construction sectors. They also have surpassed USA as the biggest arms exporter(8.5 billion this year)
Of course it was a planned invasion - if the Georgians were foolish enough to attack. As has become obvious today the Russians are destroying all offensive capabilities of the Georgians, which are obviously in Georgia proper.
I like and understand the Latvians and Estonians but I can't condone their treatment of ethnic Russians I could go into this extensively but you can read about it in EU human rights reports, they have strongly condemned Latvia and Estonia but still admitted them to EU on USA prodding. I will give you 1 more outrageous example though - in Estonia EU citizens(Germans, Irish etc.) can vote in local elections but ethnic Russians born in Estonia can not. EU has condemned it but does nothing. Is this the way to have friendly relations with Moscow?
Hello, i am an Estonian living in Tallinn. What the HELL are you on about ?? Our economy, compared to global, is doing quite fine. Just so you know, I work together in a company with lots and lots of ethnic russians, all young bright people, and not one of them has ever seen or heard anything about human rights violations, they go vote in both local and state elections and generally very much like to live where they are. They were mostly quite embarrassed around the events of Bronze Soldier and wanted nothing to do with any of this.
Would you care to elaborate where you get your data ?
DParkins claims to have been reading TOD for a couple of years, but joined 4 days ago. He claims to be an American, but he does not sound like one. He is certainly in love with authoritarianism, Putin style, and quotes virtually all of the Russian nationalist lines and nothing at all that sounds "American".
I strongly suspect a Russian agent/volunteer working to control the international reaction to their aggression in Georgia. Very good English but ...
Alan
Alan,
your killing me! FSB agent! I joined about 6 months ago under dparkins3(please ask a moderator). Never posted because I am a biochemist and therefore out of my league here with respect to Geology or Petroleum engineering. I was born in Philadelphia in the early 70's and attended the Pennsylvania State University. I am a rabid Eagles and PSU football fan. I have read hundreds if not thousands of your posts and I look for you along with Westexas, rockman, gail and a few others. I am now a semi-expert on PO thanks to hundres of hours on this site. I lived in Russia(and Baltics) for several years and therefore I know the real situation in Russia. If there was a concerted effort by Russian agents to spread propoganda I would know. I spend a good bit of time on Russian language forums.
"aggression in Georgia" - I have to disagree. I believe entering Georgia proper was entirely justified. It makes sense for Russia to destroy their arsenal, this neutralizes the threat of any future offensive. I believe it is better to endure headlines of "invasion" than to expose your troops to future attacks.
It is interesting that the majority of comments on the English media websites are pro-Russia, in spite of the fact that the articles in general are rabid anti-Russian.
Very good english for a non-native speaker! I am insulted!
Economy:
http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2008/08/fixed-currency-and-bankrupt-st...
Hansabank(The biggest lender in the baltics) Estonia CEO: devaluation would bankrupt Estonian economy
Alan&Kert, quite simply Estonia and Latvia are toast. The inflation in Latvia is now 18% and the economy is crumbling. I say this with a lot of regret as I own property there and simply can't sell it. The banks are not lending. Estonia is in better shape than Latvia though.
From BBC regarding Bronze Soldier:
And for local ethnic Russians it is one insult too many, the BBC's Richard Galpin says, after what they feel has been years of discrimination against them by the majority Estonian population.
Kert's claim that many were embarassed belies the 3 days of riots seen on television.
Voting rights:
Alvaro Gil-Robles European Council Commissioner for Human Rights are to be taken more serious. During his visit to Riga October 2003 the high commissioner criticized the lack of citizenship for more than 20% of Latvias population and recommended the granting of voting rights to non-citizens in municipal elections"
http://www.ecmi.de/download/working_paper_20.pdf
My bad its Latvia. But unfortunately Estonia is not much better:
Ny times:
There is a note of pain in Lyudmila Vedina's voice as she recalls those days, a few years ago, when she and her Russian friends in this ancient university town were ardent supporters of the struggle for Estonian independence.
"We rushed to read every paper," said Mrs. Vedina, a philologist, who has spent half her life in Tartu and has brought up her children here. "We signed all the petitions, we took part in everything, we let nothing go by. We were so proud of Estonia."
Estonia regained its freedom a year ago, but for people like Mrs. Vedina, it has been a bitter disappointment.
By nationality she is a member of the Finno-Ugric ethnic group, which includes Estonians, though her parents moved here from Russia after World War II, and she is fluent in Estonian but her mother tongue is Russian.
But because neither she nor her parents were registered residents in Estonia in 1938, she is now suddenly stateless, at least for another year. She can not vote in Estonia's coming elections, she can not own property, and by year's end, she may be barred from her state job. 40 Percent 'Non-Citizens'
Ny times:
According to the Estonian Statistical Office[citation needed], ethnic Russians comprised 25.7% of the population in 2006. Of that 25.7%, approximately 27% hold Russian citizenship, 35% hold Estonian citizenship, and 35% continue to have undefined citizenship.
Under Estonian law, residents without citizenship may not vote in elections of Riigikogu (the national parliament) or European Parliament elections, but are eligible to vote in local (municipal) elections(Under pressure they recently allowd non-citizens to vote in municipal elections. Conveniently Kert forgot to mention that.).
However, Amnesty International has claimed that Russian-speaking linguistic minority living in Estonia often find themselves de facto excluded from the labour market and educational system. The report expressed the view that the current policies fail to constitute a coherent framework within which these rights can be guaranteed for such persons. Amnesty International cites as evidence the high unemployment rate — 12.9% in 2005 — among people belonging to Russian-speaking linguistic minority, in contrast to only 5.3% among ethnic Estonians during the same period.[13] On the other hand, ethnic Estonians without good command of Russian and English language also have limited job opportunities.[citation needed]
The think-tank Development and Transition, which is sponsored by the United Nations, has argued that Latvia and Estonia employ a "sophisticated and extensive policy regime of discrimination" against their respective Russophone parts of the population. [4]
I believe I answered all of Kert's accusations, I did confuse Latvia with Estonia on 1 point again my bad. If you would like to read about
Krasnodar(big city on Black sea) from the perspective of an American Living there please see TimothyPost.com. I will answer your response from yesterday in a few days if I can still find the thread, I have a wedding to attend tommorow in Philadelphia and this is occupying my free time. If I can't find that thread I'll post it to 1 of your comments.
Dan