267 comments on DrumBeat: October 14, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
267 comments on DrumBeat: October 14, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- What "Lower Consumption" Means
- Tricking and Treating the Future
- Meeting Energy Decline Part-Way - Potatoes?
TOD:Europe
- The Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fiction - Part IV: Energy from Breeder Reactors and from Fusion?
- The US stimulus and "green jobs"
- EROWI - energy return of water invested
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Saturday 7th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 30th October 2009
- Details of Solar Flagships Released
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”
—Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
TPTB just told us straight in the face that they are going to offer "unlimited" dollars and euros to anybody "too big to fail". Translation: we would rather cover the whole world with a thick layer of freshly printed paper than let the Great Depression happen again.
So, IMO you are wrong - this rally is not going to end, but there is a great chance that by the end of it your 401K will be worthed a can of bear.
Keep your wheelbarrows greased people.
I concur LevinK.
And the definition of "too big to fail" will probably expand as time goes on.
The money supply will grow, and the Fed will act like the Burger King in the commercial - running around stuffing money into people's pockets - if they have to.
Many of us might become Penniless Billionaires if we're not careful.
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a money aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. This issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1791
Too bad that when Jefferson became president he realized he needed the banksters to fulfill his plans for expanding the US Empire. Without European Banksters as allies, the Louisiana Purchase wouldn't have happened, nor the incremental takeover of Spanish Florida, etc.
Hey, banking institutions did what standing armies couldn't (see first line of Jefferson quote)... And in those cases, the Louisiana Purchase and aquisition of Spanish Florida were, as Donald Trump would say, good real estate deals (The Louisiana Purchase it was about 1/4 of the country that we got for an inflation adjusted $200 million, damn good deal). I'll even throw in Alaska as a famous real estate deal financed by bankers, which we purchased for $7.2 million in 1867 (I don't know inflation adjusted cost, but I would fathom a guess that we've extracted at least 10 times *that* value in petroleum alone from it).
HOWEVER... Can anyone say that selling a $300,000 home with a resetting ARM to a subprime customer in 2006 was a good real estate deal? No way in hell. Banks did, though, and thought they would profit enormously from it... But, instead, those costs are going to be absorbed by society...
I was merely pointing out Jefferson's gross contradiction, of which he has many.
NovaStar Finance is a subprime lender whose shares I once owned. Their usual loan required about 20% initial borrower equity on an average loan size of 170K. FICO scores averaged 635. Their default rates are still within the range of their risk models, and they have yet to default on a MBS bond payment to investors. They are still in business despite having their stock diluted with phantom shares 3x the number of shares outstanding. And they were one of the first targets of the hedge fund scheme that generated the current crisis. Certainly, NovaStar is unique in many respects. To my knowledge, very few if any lenders were making 300K loans to subprime customers.
Furthermore, yourself and almost everyone else must understand that the ABX Index--the one used to determine the mark-to-market value of MBS, CDO, and other mortgage related bonds--was massively sold short to drive down those valuations on the targeted companies balance sheets while simultaneously those same companies were having their stock massively shorted and diluted with phantom shares many times larger than the amount in the float, with the goal being to drive the targeted companies into bankruptcy through margin and repo calls and credit line suspension so as to buy up their assets at pennies on the dollar. In this, the hedge funds were wildly successful. BUT, too many other non-targeted companies relied on the same index and on bond interest payments from the now bankrupted companies. They then became targets, too, as the grosssly greedy hedge funds smelled blood and disregarded the consequences of their actions. That is the abridged version of how we got to where we are today. I continue to direct people to DeepCapture because there is much more to learn about our dilemma and its causes. I witnessed this as it all began as a participant/victim, and my fellows and I have gathered evidence that substantiates our testimony.
Actually, I'd recommend the following in case of hyperinflation (not for the feint of heart, and only if you have a VERY stable job):
Before hyperinflation hits:
1) Buy things on credit. (Seriously.) But fixed rate- not variable rate. Like, say, a house. Or, get a second mortgage. Doesn't matter. If inflation is higher than the rate on your loan, you have just pocketed the difference and it's skin off the bank.
2) Buy a home (see #1) if you don't have one. Rent can (and will be) adjusted upward to reflect inflation; mortgages can't be. Once they're locked in, they're locked in. Would you rather pay $1,000/month for a mortgage or $3,000/month for rent? Your choice.
3) Buy (and keep maintained) a new car. Assume that hyperinflation will cause things, like, oh car repair bills to go up. A new/well maintained vehicle will save money in the long run. And, buy anything you think you will need within the next few years. Yes, hoard is the word- in a world with 1000% inflation, a necktie sold at $25 one year will be sold at $250 the next and $2500 the next.
4) Make home improvements on said home (See #2) that decrease energy consumption ASAP. Buy those energy efficient windows like NOW. Put that geothermal unit in NOW. New insulation? NOW. Tankless water heater? Solar water heater? NOW. These items will have an enormous ROI if they are purchased NOW and if energy bills rise along with inflation. (Energy/fuel bills will probably rise more so due to Peak Oil and Peak Natural Gas)
And when hyperinflation hits:
5) Pay off said home and debts (See 1-4)... Not hard if inflation puts your wage at $300,000 and your mortgage is only $100,000.
6) Be prepared to expand the number of people in your house. Be prepared to have parents living there (since their retirement might be worth squat), be prepared to have siblings living there (since they may become permanently unemployed), be prepared to have adult age children living there (since, they too may become unemployed). All the improvements made in #4 will really help out when a LOT of people are using those energy efficient features. And meanwhile, if you are single... Get a partner. Get a second income to work on paying for this. Seriously- take a trip to EHarmony or something.
7) Yank out any investments you have and put that money toward #4 and #5. The ROI will be MUCH bigger.
8) Direct deposit your checks and use a check card... if it gets really bad (and you're smart about this) you will find yourself at the checkout buying groceries and swiping your card the moment the money hits your account. You will want to have that ability to do transactions with your money without having to go to the bank. Also, if employers get smart, they will pay you much more often than once every 2 weeks. Having that check card again will be a lifesaver if that happens.
9) Plant a vegetable garden at said house (see #2). Price controls might be attempted, and if this is the case the price controls might be below the cost of production of some food (in other words, you might not be able to find certain food items).
10) Be prepared to barter your services and goods.
Welcome to the land of Fiat Currency...
We've seen deflation so far in the US recently. IMO the euro is more prone to hyperinflation because the European banks are more leveraged than their US counterparts. As was the case in Iceland, large European banks have assets several times their host countries' GDPs. The recent European bailout pledge amounts to GDP ratios are a lot higher than the US bailout to GDP ratio.
LOL you have not even seen the tip of the iceberg of the US bailout. Right now we are talking about some loose change to calm the markets. Maybe in six months the US will start putting out some serious dough. Until they start throwing around 5-10 trillion dollars as bailout out money for the US your not even in the ballpark.
The you can start looking at bailout money to GDP ratios.
All thats happening now is the Europeans are being marginally more honest about their situation than the US and they are actually solving some of the problems. Longer term the EU economy is marginally more robust then the US economy and should be a follower on the way down.
Right now the skeletons are packed so tightly in the US closet we don't even know how big it is.
Being from Europe, I am not bullish on Europe. no oil, political fights between countries (weak hopers for euro), BIG overspending just as in the USA, property bubbles here and there. rumors are that some of eastern european countries are already bankrupt.
And, worst of all, no military power to speak of. (The strongest military power in Europe consists of the United States military forces located there.)
And the united states military is relying on technology already negated.
stealth? yup, in the 90's bosnian war some smart person had the bright idea since the stealth doesn't make the plane invisible to radar, it only shrinks it's radar cross section to about the size of a bird. normal radar ignores such small objects. this person used low power radar so it would pick up the birds, and then used a computer to sort through all the birds, bugs, and other ground clutter to find the one flying nearly at mach 1. end result, it shot down a stealth fighter.
The phanalx ship defense system is even more simple to beat. either just spam the ship with missiles or hit it with a super sonic missile.
The united states military won't be able to survive a long(as in MUCH more then a few weeks) drawn out war.
We saw the dollar being dumped over the summer, and all of a sudden it's a safe haven. I agree that trillions more will be needed, but so far that's not being priced into the currency markets. Too weak a dollar is a major problem for other world economies, so they print more of their own money when the dollar tanks. We observed this earlier in the year. Some European banks are too big to fail, but too big to save as well. Will Europe really pull together when things get really bad?
Hmm US wages are a multiple of Chinese wages unless China allows much stronger wage growth US wages are not going anywhere.
Also of course you have completely forgot about oil monetary inflation in a peak oil environment can and will be reflected in the price of oil putting a huge damper or the real economy and leading to even more debt defaults.
Salaries in many parts of the US would have to double to even match todays housing prices much less inflationary induced price increases. Rents in most bubble areas are 50% of the mortgage on a equivalent house and falling. The supply of houses that don't cash flow as rentals is huge. You would somehow have to eliminate this imbalance first to even begin to see rents start increasing.
Inflation like your thinking is not gonna happen all this money thats being poured into the system will disappear into writing off defaulted debt and continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Peak oil ensures that if any real monetary inflation occurs it will just result in higher oil prices and higher overall commodities prices.
If and when wages double to handle the current inflated housing prices then we can talk about a wage/price spiral.
The ability for the American worker to demand higher wages right now is zero.
I know that everyone loves the concept of hyperinflation any day now but the reality is that with peak oil we simply can't inflate our fiat currencies since at the end of the day they really are not fiat but tied to economic growth without growth you cannot inflate. No one can pay off old debts much less new debts. Also in a inflationary environment interest rates increase given the current debt load rising interest rates simply trigger more defaults and more risk.
Government printing presses or real monetary inflation only work well for isolated economies sure once the American economy becomes isolated we might inflate but when your global like we are today you get deflation and depression just like what happened the last time the global economy collapsed.
Wages are not that important. Credit is what is important. If these new measures thaw the credit freeze, there could be another round of orgy.
As it seems now, the credit markets are still pretty much frozen, so your theory stands. But as for economy - prospects are quite bad in this scenario.
Guys/gals, do you own any gold/silver. If yes, why? If no, why not?
Platinum.
I have this nice, thick Platinum ring. And my wife's ring too (I'm widowed). I have it for obvious sentimental reasons, but I also know/believe that the may have some serious value later if TSHTF.
Gecko, so sorry to hear about your wife. You are doing the right thing by staying positive and focused on the future. I hope things never come to the point where you have to think about parting with that ring.
Ditto. I'd rather let my kids have them when they get old enough to appreciate them. In an extreme pich, if ti ever came down to my ring or my life (or one of my kid's lives), I'd fork over the ring. I hope that's a place we'll never have to be...
I have several thousand dollars face value of junk silver coins and one ounce eagles.
Sort of as an investment but mostly in the event that US dollar bills turn into toilet paper.
Knowing it is there is comforting, just like the cash in reserve and the food put by.
As a renter, I can't do the preps others have. I can only do what I can and silver is part of it.
No. You can use fiat money as toilet paper, that at least guarantees a minimum level of utility; "precious metals" are entirely worthless if the high-tech applications evaporate away; you're at the mercy of finding someone who would trade you food and other necessities for a worthless trinket and I don't give that good odds of happening.
If I was planing for the imminent collapse of society I would go with a portfolio heavy in baked beans, water purifying equipment and simple tools.
Canned pineapple is a better investment as a trade good.
In an area with LOTS of potatoes, and/or apples, (or other crop in abundance), think how many potatoes or apples one could get for one can of pineapple.
Relative scarcity and the human desire for variety make pineapple a better choice than baked beans.
Alan
That's a bit rough, but the shape might be right... However, here's a better use:
Once again, you are dead on Memmel.
If I see them throwing 10's of Trillion dollars into the hole of derivative defaults THEN I will think of inflation. Until that junk is all written off, It will shrink and disappear like falling into a neutron star.
John
Ahhh... I'd like to agree with you that it just falls into that black hole of debt, and fizzles away in a burst of X-rays, but...
...Somewhere, it's been created. In order to buy the debt, the government has (or will) turn around and sell treasuries to someone (maybe some guy in Ohio, maybe someone in China or maybe even Osama Bin Laden). And with the current situation- it's not like the government is creating money and burning it up... They are transferring debt and creating money to destroy the debt. But, it has been created... Someone is on the receiving end of that debt payment and owns that debt, and will get paid by the government. They will get some piece of that $700 billion or $1 trillion or $50 trillion or whatever and SPEND it, and therefore drive up inflation.
Before the current real estate crash, someone in HousingPanicBlog.com stated that there were more balloon note mortgages than at any time since the Great Depression (incl late 20's era). The balloon notes are interest only loans where one paid interest until the note was due then paid the entire principle at once. The plan was to pay only interest then refinance the note when it was due. In theory one might never pay back the principle until the house is sold. The demand for this E-Z credit exceeds supply of dollars on deposit. People paniced when they could not get more credit extended to them. The Federal government first wanted to bail out wealthy investment banks and now has plans to open the treasury to the commercial banks (S & L type banks), Obama was talking about helping homeowners in trouble. What about the ones who were good and paid their debts? No help for those who pay their taxes, but instead giving to those who accumulate massive tax write offs? The system is tilted in a dangerous way and the dollar is at risk of losing its value, the government has not shown it is capable of efficient bank management.
Sometime during the first half of the year a lot of people started to think 'this is it' when everything seemed to be going through the roof -but look what happened: demand got killed (along with the economy) and we see a major slump in commodities.
Now I've been saying for a while that commodities (inc. oil or possibly driven up by oil becoming scarcer) will increase but having seen the up-up-up-down of the last few years I'm not so sure...
So my question would be -how can we be sure that we are in for a bout of Inflation that will last and not get 'cut in the bud' by a recession/depressionary cycle?
-In your example you could find yourself stuck on a 10 year 6.5% fixed while trackers are humming along at Base Rate of 2% (in response to the depression caused by high oil prices perhaps) + 0.5% = 2.5% ... You'd be feeling pretty silly then wouldn't you?
My mortage buddies are telling me that trackers are currently some of the best deals and if we are going to get rate cuts things will only improve.
Nick.