![]() | ASPO VII - second day | The Oil Drum: Europe | The Global Energy Crisis and its Role in the Pending Collapse of the Global Economy | ![]() |
58 comments on ASPO VII - final thoughts
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58 comments on ASPO VII - final thoughts
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Thanks to Luís for putting together this fine series of posts! I think the question he raises in this last post is an especially important one for the ASPO organizations.
Let me add another perspective. We now have a very strange situation--peak oil is almost certainly here (although some will debate this), but the naming rights for the crisis go to the financial collapse, even though I would argue that ultimately, peak oil is the cause of the underlying problem.
Furthermore, the price of oil is lower, rather than higher, and demand seems to be less than supply. With all of these considerations, many people see no particular reason to conserve, except for climate change, and because of lack of money to pay for fossil fuels.
It seems to me that trying to talk to political organizations now will be harder than it has been in the past. Every spare dollar is being used to (try to) solve the financial crisis. Without a price crisis, no one thinks oil is a problem. I don't know that we can give up on political organizations, but our message has to be more than peak oil.
It seems to me that we need to be looking more broadly at fuels, and understanding where the problems are, and what the long term solutions are. Natural gas looks like it will be a problem in the near future in Europe. We, or ASPO organizations, need to be looking at this closely, and pointing out the problem to elected officials, as well as whatever solutions we can find.
We, or ASPO organizations, need to be looking at electricity also. We can't take the narrow view that electricity will take care of itself, because there is wind and solar. Electricity, at least the way it is done now, requires a lot of oil-based infrastructure that needs to be built and maintained. Our solutions must consider real-world electrical constraints.
We cannot ignore financial interrelationships either. (It seems to me that ASPO organizations have tended to downplay financial relationships.) While it may seem strange, a reduction in debt can be expected to lead to a reduction in oil demand, because whatever would normally be done with the cash advanced by the debt (building cars, paying salaries to workers who buy cars, building roads, etc.), will be eliminated without the debt. Because of this, we get a feedback loop (high oil prices -> debt defaults -> credit restrictions -> reduced oil demand). This feedback loop is part of what made the drop in oil prices so large, since it tends to reinforce the more direct relationship of high prices -> lower demand. We need to understand these relationships ourselves, even if they don't directly affect what we say to elected officials.
There is now also a real need for the common people to figure how to adapt, because it doesn't look like we have very long for elected officials to do much, and for this to filter back to the people. Even people who are in ASPO organizations are starting to think more seriously about what they should do to personally prepare. Maybe it is time to start talking more about solutions at the individual level, and how to bring these solutions to the common people.
In 1929 the US had a stockmarket crash, but it wasn't until the Dustbowl came along that farmers actually lost their farms in large numbers. But we talk of "the Depression" and not much of the Dustbowl.
The lesson there is that a single crisis isn't enough to knock a country to its knees. It's the combination of different crises that really hurt a country.
For example, France suffered a military crisis in 1870-71, but paid off its reparations within a few years.
But Germany's military crisis of 1918 was combined with a social crisis (civil wars) in 1918-19, and economic crisis to boot - and they didn't recover until after they'd dragged themselves into another military crisis a couple of decades later.
How the US will go we still don't know. But at the moment it's only a financial crisis. An environmental, military, or social crisis is needed to combine with it if it's to cause a genuine collapse which is worthy of being named "Depression" or whatever.
The naming of the whole collapse just goes to whatever the first crisis was.
... and these were of course inter-linked, with, for example, the wide-ranging fight on the Eastern Front in WWI leading to economic difficulties all through Mitteleuropa, undermining the ability to buy German manufactured goods.
Just as the impact of the Dust Bowl in driving farmers into bankruptcy was much more severe, coming on the back of the steep dive in the price of commodities in world markets after the Panic of 1929.
Kiashu, actually I'm not sure that's true, at least in the US. The Dustbowl has a huge resonance - as part of a seperate but simultaneous crisis.
That said, your point brings us back to Dennis Meadows, the World 3 simulations, where the chronic problem was not any one crisis, but the fact that even in fairly optimal scenarios, eventually what is lost is teh ability to cope. I think we're getting very near that point.
I'm really happy to see people asking the question of whence goes ASPO - I've been arguing that ASPO is going to have to start engaging itself with the long term - and the solutions, not the problem - if it is to remain relevant. ASPO is one of the most remarkable collections of minds in the world - it is time to turn your attention to the practical realities of adaptation.
IMHO, of course.
Sharon
Hi Sharon, I agree that the current ASPO approach by itself is insufficient.
But it doesn't follow that ASPO should try to do everything itself. For one thing, ASPO is not a huge organization. It needs to stick to its focus or risk overextending itself.
For Solutions, we need a panoply of organizations, movements and efforts. Each will have a different set of members.
At the recent ASPO-USA conference, the demographics leaned heavily towards white male professionals. The main thrust was quantitative and large-scale (government and industry). I was surprised at the number of people interested in investments.
Some talks were devoted to Solutions, but in general I found them the least satisfying (e.g. high tech improvements to car designs).
Maybe there should be a section of ASPO for right-brainers. It would be nice to be able to talk about soil ecology, permaculture and movement building (my favorites) or the commonsense survival strategies that interest you.
I think it would be possible to approach these subjects with the rigor that is ASPO's strength.
Opening up ASPO to different approaches might make the organization more of a Big Tent, and help members widen their perspectives.
I wouldn't hold my breath though. Fortunately, there are many other venues for right-brainers.
BTW, congrats on the books and the recent rash of publicity.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
Bart,
I think you have (in low tech terms) hit the nail squarely on the head. There are a large number of can do (early retired, very bored) engineers out here who have been outsourced in favor of computer simulations. While we enjoy the rapidity of a computer simulation, we know that it will provide a "safe" solution for the bean counters, not necessarily the elegent one that originally built our infrastructure. Since we are so left brained, we need right brain types to run point. Give us scope, scheudle and budget, and we can deliver.
PS Although female, well dressed, soft spoken and totally helpless when it comes time to open the door, the male demographics are so entrenched I am usually adddressed as "Sir" when in a technical meeting.
Irre -
I know of no way to send a message to one TOD user - so - sorry to others for this post:
contact me at yeskriscan at gmail.com or youtube kriscanshow - if looking for some important peak oil work.
Cheers!
Gail and all,
Allow me to reiterate a thought I've advocated at this site and other related sites. All of these phenomena are related at a deep level. We are observing a complex system under a driving influence, namely the flow of energy through the global economy. That the major source for this energy is now fossil fuel (with consequent CO2 emissions) and that we have reached an effective peak in energy production (without adequate replacement for the FF sources) is fundamental to the financial crisis in multiple ways.
We need to take a systems approach to both understanding the multifaceted and complex Earth system and to finding solutions if any exist. I say if, because it is not clear to me that a feasible solution exists if the problem you are trying to solve is to save our civilization as it is. I can't see any path to sustainability in our current course. A deep systems study of our situation might, however, show us the directions to feasible solutions to the right problem formulation.
It may be time for many issue-based organizations to consider collaboration on an integrated systems approach to defining the interrelationships and dynamics that we are witnessing. It is a big task, of course, but so would be any approach to "solving" these problems independently. I nominate someone like Fritjof Capra to head an inter-agency effort to map out the interconnections. We need another World Dynamics model such as developed originally by Jay Forrester and taken up by Dennis Meadows.
Question Everything
George
PS. Not hopeful that any help will come from the elected "leaders", even if they grasped any of this.
I agree with you, George, and sigh at such statements as this, "But ASPO can be a catalyst, not for a “Solution,” but for new policy strategies and tactics that may help us fare better through the transition away from Fossil Fuels."
The truism goes something like this: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
This idea that ASPO or TOD or the "Peak Oil community" at large or... cannot define a solution strikes me as passing bizarre. At the very least, the brain power apparent within the PO "movement" is quite capable of working up some scenarios, no? The Club of Rome did. David Holmgren has. Why not POilers?
I posit, in fact, that a failure to do so will pretty much damn the planet. Who else knows the issue so well? Who else has the breadth of participants? The variety of experiences?
ASPO/TOD, whomever. Someone has to carry the burden of being stoned as a prophet in your own home.
I have advocated for such an idea.
Get 'er done.
ccpo