191 comments on Jay Hanson and Warsocialism.com
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
191 comments on Jay Hanson and Warsocialism.com
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Unique Times -- and the Future
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 27th November 2009
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Men argue; nature acts.”
—Voltaire
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Nate,
Is it just me or do others see that Hanson slips form making the case for "Peak Oil" and then " the same energy laws that limit oil production limit all energy production".
In no way is wind and solar energy even remotely similar to the limitations that limit oil production.
All of the assumptions of "die off" are based on declining energy production, and thus declining resource availability. Assuming a growth in renewable energy, and a lot more options become available.
He slips in that he uses outdated charts, but there is little new that he could use!
What he means is that net energy is a direct application of the second law of thermodynamics...i.e. for every energy conversion there is always a heat loss. For us to access stored sunlight below the ground, there are physical principles governing its extraction. (e.g. # of joules required to pull oil up from X# of feet below ground, embodied energy going into the pipes and materials etc.)
The same principles apply to wind and solar. In order to 'harness' that energy and concentrate it into a form usable by current society there are energy costs. It is Jays conclusion that the wide boundary energy surplus from fossil fuels (measured as net energy per unit times number of units) cannot be replaced by alternative sources. The GROSS energy might be, but not the net. I disagree with him partially here - I think it's TECHNICALLY possible to increase our energy surplus by devoting the remainder of our fossil fuels to a massive local, regional and international scaling of all sorts of renewable infrastructure. But in order to do that, we would have to take that energy away from how it is currently being used, hence it becomes a political/human nature problem, and right back in Mr. Hanson's wheelhouse. We CAN do it, but will we?