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128 comments on DrumBeat: November 4, 2008
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128 comments on DrumBeat: November 4, 2008
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I have visited that particular wind energy installation three times since it was placed in service six months ago. The "noise" they're talking about is a low whooshing sound that registers about 42 dBa from 1,000 feet. That's about 8-10 dBa above ambient sound levels at night, unless the crickets are chirping, the cows are mooing, a dog is barking, a car is driving by, rain is falling, or the leaves are rustling from the same wind. Or something else.
When the windows are closed, they are inaudible from inside a house. End of story.
What we have here is a handful of unhappy people who project their anxieties on changing circumstances. Wind turbines happen to be a highly visible symbol of change. So, if they're feeling stressed, or have an upset stomach, or couldn't get to sleep last night, it's the turbines fault. Very convenient. Of course, this is not an attitude that will come in handy during the Long Emergency.
Michael (WI)
"So, if they're feeling stressed, or have an upset stomach, or couldn't get to sleep last night, it's the turbines fault."
That's what I was thinking. It's that magical thinking stuff again, and it's in our genes.
I guess there could be a real cause-effect other than their own mind tricking them, but I doubt it. It might make an interesting study for the psychologist.
I can relate a funny anecdote about wolf kills: when timber wolves were first introduced to Yellowstone, accidental or incidental calf deaths in the ranches in the surrounding counties shrank tremendously. The reason? It's not because wolves are good for calves, it's because if a calf died, it must have been wolves that did it. The park service is obliged to pay for wolf kills, but if a cow just dies on its own the rancher eats that cost. Whenever one of these "wolf kills" is reported, the park service sends out their inspector to look for characteristic bite marks. More often than not he doesn't find any, so the park service doesn't reimburse the rancher, but that doesn't seem to stop the rancher from claiming the wolves did it. Total calf deaths are the same, but now instead of accidental deaths, it's always reported as wolves.
I suspect these people just had a mild case of the flu or a cold. More urban myths that can't be proved, like cell phones causing cancer.
It is true that in California near wind farms the land prices go down because of the noise -- but these are the old style props that spin much faster and are noisier.
For some reason I just don't like the looks of them when I'm within 500 metres. I find the plodding powerful rotation of the huge blades kind of frightening and unnatural. Maybe I played a video game as a child that where one had to navigate through huge propellers.
It seems to me that dismissing those who find turbines distressing in too cavalier a manner is unwise.
Some people are just a lot more sensitive to some stimuli than others, for instance in allergies, and it is perhaps possible that sensitivity to low frequency noise and perhaps changes in pressure may be much greater in some than in others.
Many who readily dismiss what they regard as nimbyism in this respect give credence to alleged leukemia clusters near nuclear power stations, but are reluctant to entertain any criticism of their pet projects.
I agree that we should not dismiss these complaints too quickly.
And with your point that some people are much more sensitive to certain stimuli is well taken. In my own experience, I've never had allergy problems, but I do get minor allergy symptoms from drinking even one can of beer - but only in the fall and spring. Maybe it's due to some combination of local pollens and something in the beer ???.
In any case, the phenomena should be investigated and if it is not psychosomatic we can hopefully find the cause and way to alleviate the problem.
Canada has been increasing its hydroelectric capacity. Alaska has great potential for hydroelectric dams. In Russia they had dams in the far north, had to make sure the intake for the water turbines was below the level for ice formation in the winter. The operating costs of hydro are very low, lower than for nuclear. Aluminum smelting required electricity to reduce the bauxite aluminum ore. Bauxite formed with the decomposition of clays at southern latitudes. Some of the first aluminum smelting was accomplished at Niagra due to the tremendous power potential there.
I used to be very skeptical of this kind of complaint until I married a prominent physician who treats many people with these issues. Many people become allergic to the yeast in beer and wine as they get older and their immune systems are less able to cope, myself included.
Not so fast. Just because someone who casually visits can not hear it, does not mean someone who lives there cannot. Many people are seriously affected by this kind of thing.
If wind power is going to be a major means of replacing fossil fuels we are going to need hundreds of thousands of square miles of wind farms. This is going to be a major issue in the American west and Europe where it is going to be difficult to locate them away from people far enough not to cause these effects. This is a much more serious issue than the fears some have of living near nuclear power plants since they take up so little land. Wind energy has significant visual and auditory pollution issues.
It's quite true. Most people cannot see a computer monitor flicker if the refresh rate is set to 60hz, but it gives me a headache within a matter of minutes. Whenever I did tech support, the first thing I would do if the monitor was set to 60hz is change it to 70hz or higher. I didn't have to check the settings, I could easily tell from everything just barely flickering for me. Fortunately new LCD monitors don't havve the same problem, even if their refresh rate is 60hz, as the brightness of the pixel doesn't fade away.
Similarly, with the new LED products that are coming out that run on A/C power, depending on how the power is rectified, I can see the 60hz "pulse" of the power in the LEDs. Incandescent, fluorescent, or DC powered LEDs do not cause this problem for me.
Other examples are CRT televisions that produce high-pitch whines cannot often be heard by others, but drive me absolutely batty, and when I was on vacation in Tokyo, Japan there would sometimes be ultrasonic bug repellers near entrances to businesses to prevent bugs from flying in the open doors which would also cause me pain.
In all of these instances, some other people experienced the same problems, while most people didn't. Some people just aren't sensitive to such things, or aren't as receptive. It's crazy how no matter how hard of a time I have deciphering what a person is saying when there is a lot of noise, there's no way anybody could sneak up behind me unless there was loud music via headphones or speakers going on..
60Hz flicker and the 60Hz "whine" of a TV set bothers me, too. Even car taillights flicker at 60Hz. If you look at one and quickly rotate your eye, it will make a trail like this:
_ _ _ _ _
Driving on the freeway is mildly unnerving because of this.
It's quite likely that in these cases, the car manufacturer is "overdriving" the LEDs to increase their brightness. An LED can be overdriven, increasing the light out put but decreasing its life if it is overdriven for a period of time. This is overcome by using PWM, or Pulse Width Modulation, to where the LED flashes on/off so fast that MOST humans cannot see it. If the PWM was set to a higher cycle rate, it wouldn't be seen, but they likely use the 60Hz as it is a standard with so many things. I suspect in time as documented cases increase, the auto manufacturers will hopefully increase the cycle rate to something higher, to at least 70Hz or 80Hz. Standard DC LED's that are not overdriven will not produce this effect.
Infrasonic (very low frequency) sound could be a factor. Now would probably be a really good time to seriously study if infrasound from wind turbines has any effects on the environment, human or otherwise. It would be a pity if we invested massively in a certain design of wind turbine, only to find that their operation made many people sick. The general presumption is that wind turbine technology is benign, but nothing in this world is totally benign.
I wonder if might be vibration more than noise. There has been some research suggesting that low-frequency vibration can cause the problems they are complaining about. I remember seeing one study that linked low-frequency vibration with "sick building syndrome."
Leanan -
A good deal of work has already been done on analyzing the sound and low-frequency vibrations produced by large wind turbines. However, much less is known about the long-term physiological effects of such, largely because there isn't a great deal of historical data to go by (offshore turbines, obviously, don't count).
As I understand it, each time a turbine blade passes in front of the support tower there is a slight decrease in wind pressure due to the 'shadow effect', and that in turn causes both a change in localized air movement plus a flexing of the blade. Then, of course there are the vibrations caused by vortex formation as the blade tip cuts through the air.
It is well known that low-frequency vibrations at a certain frequency and amplitude can cause all sort of physiological problems, both subtle and obvious, including nausea, vertigo, and general malaise. The US military has done research using low-frequency sound as a non-lethal weapon for crowd control. I recall the idea is to induce almost instantaneous nausea and loose bowels (or maybe worse if you turn up the volume).
So, there may or may not be a legitimate physical basis for some of the specific complaints by people living near wind turbines. I think this problem underscores the importance of proper site selection for onshore wind turbines. We will probably learn soon enough (and via the hard way) what is a safe distance to live from a large wind turbine.
A long time ago an operating engineer showed me that he could kill insects within a 100 foot radius of a turbine (commonly used to for large scale air-flow) just through rpm adjustment.
He said nobody at his workplace ever took him seriously when he told people.
I remember having a terrible sinus headache for hours afterward.
Windmill problems among the local populace?
Send in Don Quixote.
Don Quixote: Dost not see? A monstrous giant of infamous repute whom I intend to encounter.
Sancho Panza: It's a windmill.
Don Quixote: A giant. Canst thou not see the four great arms whirling at his back?
Sancho Panza: A giant?
Don Quixote: Exactly. (Man of La Mancha)
This phenomena has been known for quite some time. The American "South Park" television comedy even featured it.
Its known as the Brown Note.
I know for a fact this is effective on me. It does not move my bowels, but it will result in nausea after a few seconds of it.
There are other artifacts, rarely occuring in Nature but often occuring in our civilized lifestyle which I find quite annoying: the magnetostrictive squeal of power converters running 15-20 KHz ( including TV horizontal output transformers ) and flickering of fluorescent lamps and some LED's driven from pulse width modulators.
There were several department stores in the 70's I could not be in for more than a few seconds at a time because they had ultrasonic burglar alarms that they would not turn off the transmitters to during the day. I would become extremely irritable after a few minutes of it.
I consider their complaint very valid.
Steve