I have been talking to people about peak oil for nearly six years now, and climate change for even longer. From my experience, the greatest hindrance to effective communication is one of core belief and identity systems.

Why are belief systems an important topic? Because until enough people are able to speak to each other not just honestly, but with honesty grounded in a shared reality, there will be no “solutions” that actually have a chance to work. The reason I place that word “solutions” into quotes is because few of us can agree on the “problem” right now. When we come together with vastly differing world views we can’t even identify what it is we should be concerned about!

For the present, when I try to spell out the implications of the limits we are encountering I typically run into the standard rebuttals of “techno-triumphalism” and a general faith in the “system” whether that implies big business or big government or both. A bit of “human spirit” is also tossed around frequently. This makes it impossible to go further with any discussions like, “Hey, I think we need to get a local currency going,” or, “Don’t you think our schools should teach home economics and agriculture again?”

I also sometimes encounter those who are on the path of disillusionment, and this is where our hope lies. Only those who have recognized the depth of corruption, myopia and sickness that pervades our “way of life” are willing to explore the actual changes required by circumstances.

This realization is a conundrum. Must I be “cruel to be kind”? How far can I push people before they react too strongly against a painful message? The situation is ironic in many ways. I do offer “solutions” and I am able to “think positively,” just not in ways that many others can appreciate right now. But I watch and I wait, keeping friendly with many people and looking for an opening, a sign of sorts, that they are questioning some fundamental beliefs, losing faith in what they have known, and searching for a way out.

But I watch and I wait, keeping friendly with many people and looking for an opening, a sign of sorts, that they are questioning some fundamental beliefs, losing faith in what they have known, and searching for a way out.

And, this is why I remain a doomer. It is already too late to make the needed changes in a rational way. Things will be even worse by the time society has reached even a minor consensus on just a few of the issues. After all, we aren't simply taking about just energy but rather a plethora of interlocked systems and beliefs. There is, of course, energy but there is also governance, finance, population, food production and on and on.

Simply the need to move beyond BAU is a massive step to fully grasp that few people I encounter can understand much-less accept.

Todd

No disagreement from me.

For some reason I still try. I suppose it's because I'd rather give it my best shot, even if the odds are ridiculously slim. And maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Some may see my lack of belief in the likelihood of success as a great disadvantage. But this is not necessarily the case. Because I feel like I have nothing really to loose and don't expect to win, I am not upset by my own failures.

Think of a football team going for the hail mary pass. Nobody expects it to work, but they give it a shot anyways and, behold, sometimes it pays off.

I keep at it because I want to be able to say to myself that I did everything I could.

I'm also finding people along the way who I think will be good to help with the rebuilding, or at least make the descent as decent as possible, which I actually believe can be quite decent if we get enough people going.

Although I have lived in quasi-urban, suburban, exurban areas and the boondocks, I really view the future from a boondocks perspective since that is where I have been for the past 30 years.

I think Jeff Vail's Rhizome Communities (see his post of February 11. 2008 at http://www.JeffVail.com ) are, perhaps, the most realistic, best case as to how the future might play out.

One of the things about the boondocks is that we recognize our interdependedness, especially in difficult situations. At the same time, the old-timers/true survivors have the skill-sets and resources necessary to pull it off alone if necessary. To put survival in perspective, many years ago the snow was so deep that when my neighbor went to check his sheep, his horse couldn't get through the snow with him on its back. Instead, he hung onto the horse's tail and was dragged a mile through the snow to home.

Further, we all "owe" each other. If I help a neighbor, he "owes" me. The thing is this happens so often, and no one keeps track, that we simply respond when called upon. This is vastly different than "city people" who never develop these kinds of necessary interrelationships.

Let me put this into a real life context. Last year my 4x4 was in the shop and we had a snow storm (I'm in the northern CA mountains) and my wife had to get to a conference. My neighbor said would get her out. He not only did this but he and a friend had to spend two hours cutting up an oak tree that had fallen across the road to even get to our house. Now, David didn't have to do this...but he promised he would get Ginny out and he did. His word, and all of our words, are our bond.

I never saw this sort of thing in other areas where we have lived. But, this is what it is going to take to survive.

Todd

Todd - Thanks for pointing out the article by Jeff Vail. FYI it's a .net not a .com so the address for others to go to is
http://www.jeffvail.net/2008/02/hierarchy-must-grow-and-is-therefore.html

Best

Panda,

Thanks for the correction. It's ironic since I had a hard copy of the article in front of me when I posted.

Todd

Todd,

How it used to work in the older farming lifestyle of my youth was like this:

I helped my neighbor get his hay in the barn. I did it for no pay. He now owed me a 'favor' or some compensatory work on my farm. He did so by helping me cut my hogs.

So you helped others and if they did NOT return the favors? That person found himself alone when he needed help. He was perhaps 'shunned' so to speak. He didn't return favors. They weren't called 'favors' but the practice was very prevalent and of course it had to be this way.

Yes you could make it on your own hook IF you had some children. Having no children made it very tough so you didn't grow much as you could have. You might just make it.

Now if you were a miller or blacksmith or midwife..then your 'traded' work.

At a nearby county the fairgrounds each Saturday or perhaps Monday had what was called a 'Trade Day'. Folks brought in chickens,geese,dogs,whatever in order to trade what they had a lot of for something they needed.

Up until a few years ago this was still held and I picked up a lot there. But I think the auctioneers maybe killed it off for it was all free and no costs. The auctioneers are viewed pretty much as scum by many. Necessary but they tend to feed off peoples misfortune. They now exact a very very high price.

Airdale

My list of "favors owed" is quite long (and often useful :-)

Best Hopes for Urban Communities as well,

Alan

Jason,

as you no doubt know, the brain "hardens" up after at around 25. So new info, at least fundamentally new, cannot be processed or integrated. The brain basically switches to "read only". A person might be a raging Young Republican drinking the hard right evangelical captialism Kool-aid at age 18 but still at least has the potential to change by age 25. After age 25, it is next to impossible. Maybe possible in 1 out of 100 people don't go into total "ready only" mode and those 1 out of 100 are probably in fields where they have to wire and rewire thier understanding of the tasks presented them day to day.

The natural biological tendency is made a lot worse by modern lifestyle which depletes the brain of necessary nutrietns, thereby further inhibiting it's ability to wire in fundamentally new ideas. You may as well be asking a 300 pound couch potato to turn himself into an olympic athlete. In fact, I think you're chances of doing that would be better. We're talking 1 out 1,000 chance here.

People here will say "but I changed my belief system after age 25". Well either it didn't change as much as you think (you had probably concluded prior to age 25-26 that "things are not right") or you are the exception to the rule.

In the "hail mary pass" situation, the unspoken assumption is there are people downfield who actually want to catch the ball. In the situation at hand, how many people truly WANT to understand how much trouble we're in? Maybe 1 out of 500? 1 out of 1,000?

I can't decide whether this is hokum or on target. While generally speaking most would agree that people's beliefs tend to settle down as they age, many external factors intervene - economic depression causing people to adopt very thrifty, cost-conscious habits, even when their objective situation does not encourage let alone require it, for example my mother; Warren Buffet. People are capable of change at many stages of life, even in basic ways (huge literature on religious conversion, for example).

On what basis did you choose 25 as the inflection point? I'd say that's a construct of our extended adolescence in western industrial societies. I'd put the inflection point for most of humanity now and in the preindustrial period much nearer age of puberty.

I think we 're dealing here with the costs of information processing, the likelihood that we're wired to stop assessing major alternatives as we pass puberty. But we're capable of change; isn't that our hope and potential?

I can't decide whether this is hokum or on target

Thomas
I suspect its a little of both. I presume Chimp is repeating what he heard from Jay Hanson, because Jay often (loosely) used the age of 25 in his discussions of when brains became more or less 'set', and it would take a great deal of effort after that to learn something truly new. But 'set' in what ways is the relevant question. I don't think he meant set in their beliefs, but set in how they process the beliefs.

The origins, as you might guess, are in evolutionary psychology, which I know you are familiar with. The domain specific vs domain general aspects of our thinking (we stand on escalators with our gym bags waiting for it to take us to the gym where we will exercise is an example - our brains think domain specifically => ESCALATOR/STAND STILL and GYM/EXERCISE and don't use an overriding general thought module of 'if purpose is exercise then run up escalator to gym'). One explanation is that these content-dependent modules are not “informationally encapsulated” and some of the variations in ability you notice in adults are differences in interconnections between these modules and the general speed of the connections. The speed of such neural connections is related to the amount of 'insulation' on the neurons, called a myelination, or myelinated sheath. This typically keeps developing to age 10-12 but science is unclear on when it stops - it might continue on into early adulthood which is where the 25 figure came from. Once these domains are set, they are difficult to change or build new ones.

In sum, I think its a guess, but an educated one.

Nate:

With all due respect, and that is not a platitude, I submit that the nature of the brain is so complex that to say isolating a specific observed biological change or cessation can determine the outcome of how the brain functions over the long term is somewhat specious. The fact that the brain "develops" in a physiological sense at some arbitrary age says little about how it might rearrange itself later. Allow me to compare a microprocessor which is usually fixed when it is manufactured but it's output can change depending on the software which may run above it.

This has been evidenced by how varied the recoveries are from stroke, traumatic brain injury and a host of other effects.

My point is, like AGW, PO et al, there is so much we still don't know.

OT, I think the nature of this thread represents the best of TOD because it allows a venue for people to think and interact. Not just on issues of energy equivalency or EREOI but how interconnected it all is.

The fact that you participate in the hijacking of your own thread is a testament to that. Perhaps that is the answer to your original question.

Kudos

I uprated you!!

Chimp - You make a very good case for offing everyone over 25 unless of course they can prove they have accepted the fact that "things are not right" prior to becoming 25.

What church did you say you were with?

I disagree with a magic number of 25. (leading off with "as you no doubt know" is a dead giveaway). It is a continuum.

Recent studies have shown that there is considerable plasticity in the brain well into the 70s and 80s.

Your final paragraph is more on point, IMO. The issue is not the capacity for change but the desire or willingness to change. That is another matter entirely and is culturally and emotionally based not physiological. Since I passed 25, many years ago I have changed many times based on new information and relationships and continue to do so.

That said, your guesstimate of those who WANT to understand, and thus change, seems about right, unfortunately.

My understanding is that the age is closer to 35. I remember form a linguistics class I took that for this reason it is much harder for most people to learn languages after that age.

Matt

An earlier linguistic boundary:
If you learn a new language after age 13-14 you will always speak it with an accent.

Can you cite any references? I have direct anecdotal evidence to the contrary. (BTW using the word "always" makes me nervous :-) )

Secondly, (again contradicting myself) everyone speaks every language, native or otherwise, with an accent y'all.

It's generally true... if you learn your *first* second language after the cutoff age of 13-14. There are exceptions.

But in my personal experience, if you learn two languages before that cutoff age, then you can continue to learn more languages after the cutoff, without an accent, and become fluent (with enough work). This is, I think, because some pathways in your brain that relate to learning languages and how they work, get reinforced enough by having a second language, that they stick around longer.

At the risk of undermining my own point, It is my understanding that studying music or learning a new language at a young age sets the stage for continued learning for the rest of your life, particularly wrt music or language. Apparently, it is the algorithm that is established, not the specific skill. Perhaps it is the ability to change your mind that is learned when one is young.

See? I'm still adaptable ;-)

In the "hail mary pass" situation, the unspoken assumption is there are people downfield who actually want to catch the ball. In the situation at hand, how many people truly WANT to understand how much trouble we're in? Maybe 1 out of 500? 1 out of 1,000?

I'd say you have the odds about right.

Furthermore, most people will tend to get the stuffing knocked out of em' if they attempt to throw the Hail Mary pass (the stuffing being one's inclusive fitness).

At this late stage in the game, it is critical to the survival of you and your loved ones that an extended social network be built and solidified. By going around throwing Hail Marys, however, one risks alienating potential friends, mates, and allies.

Many people are too worried about tomorrow to deal with 'limits to growth'. The stability of their jobs, healthcare, and housing have them on edge. From the average American's perspective, the friend, colleague, or stranger who discusses pessimistic topics like Peak Oil is not fun to be around. These 'pessimists' elicit negative feelings in others, create socially awkward situations, and may even be avoided or shunned. :(

Absurd, sad, but true.

My advice is to keep learning, preparing, and making friends and alliances... and recognize that there are times when you'd be better off keeping your pie-hole shut about the bigger picture - at least until people's brains are similarly focused on the problem (or domain). Trust me, we won't want to be lonely and isolated from our communities when the SHTF.

CAVEAT: None of the above is necessarily relevant to situations in which a person is educating policy makers, decision-makers, community task-forces, government, significant others, immediate family etc.

Edit: Should mention that I'm only 25, so my situation may be different than others here. I would probably have a different outlook/strategy if I was in my 40's, 50's, or 60's.

I changed my belief system totally in my mid-thirties. It was in response to a new set of circumstances. I distinctly recall the struggle to let go of old beliefs and the firm decision to follow the evidence no matter where it led, no matter how scary. Hardly any of my peers were able to do this and remain stuck in their old belief systems.

Jason, you wrote:
"How far can I push people before they react too strongly against a painful message?"

I have a real-life ancedote to offer. I took my ex-wife to see "An Inconvenient Truth"; walking out of the theater she said "For twenty years I thought you were a f...king raving lunatic." It seems to me that we forward-thinkers will be dismissed by the average person unitl 1) a respected authority figure popularizes our position, or 2) the consensus of their social circle comes around to our position.

In other words, people are herd animals.

It's called the 5% rule...and most of the 5% out there, know they are one. The other 95% are sheeple that don't have a clue, and are almost never going to get one. The age of 25 makes no difference, one way or the other. It's simply Biology. All men ( and women) are NOT created equal. Look around, beyond the trappings of money, or the artificial status given by a college degree. Being able to make money, or paying an institution for that piece of paper to hang on your wall that says "I'm smart" to somebody passing by, is by no means, any indication as to whether or not you will survive what is ahead. I have had the opportunity to brush up against many a Phd. socially, as well as the very wealthy, and in all honesty, if I had to depend on most of them for help to survive, I'd be dead in no time at all. The common sense of a potato bug is about all they were good for. If you have had an opportunity to be around lots of children, as a teacher or coach. You understand this quite well. It's there at a very early age, or it's not.

Basic Biology. With a little social intercourse thrown in for good measure. The 95%, not only need the "Leader" in their lives to fuction, and to have focus, but are lost with without one.

I also sometimes encounter those who are on the path of disillusionment, and this is where our hope lies. Only those who have recognized the depth of corruption, myopia and sickness that pervades our “way of life” are willing to explore the actual changes required by circumstances.

This realization is a conundrum. Must I be “cruel to be kind”? How far can I push people before they react too strongly against a painful message? The situation is ironic in many ways....

I'm not a particularly religious person, but I was brought up Catholic, largely in Jesuit tradition. Liberation Theology and those like the Berrigans have influenced me greatly. Which brings me around to "hope".

Unfounded hope is presumption. It's evil. It's cruel. It was the last thing out of Pandora's Box. It is not like Dr. Seuss' Vooom - hidden under little cat Z's hat. Unfounded hope will not clean up every mess. Unfounded hope will not clean up any mess.

The significance--and ultimately the quality--of the work we do is determined by our understanding of the story in which we are taking part. - Wendell Berry, Christianity and the Survival of Creation

One does need to understand "the analysis" of what is going on. Peak Oil, resource depletion, climate change, cancerous growth, environmental toxicity, economic inequality. If the understanding of where one is leads one to despair, that is entirely appropriate. Desperate times require desperate deeds. Many of us recognize that these are desperate times. And we still have to figure out what desperate deeds the times require. We're at the river; we need to build the boats and get into them. Only then is there going to be the possibility of real hope.

I can hear Alan Watts asking, "What is to be done?" and admit I don't know.

Growing food, getting out of debt, preparing, building resilience.

Last night I went to a "raw food" potluck. What does a gardener in Maine eat in November that's raw, local and organic - other than Kale and apples? It was a sure thing those would turn up. I figured out a celeriac salad with all sorts of mixed wild and garden greens. But everyone else brought things from Whole Foods and every part of the planet. We try to fix one bit of our lives and make every other bit worse. [Dinner was unbelievably yummy, esp the kales, apple sauces, cashew cheeses, butternut squash (which could be local) and the pumpkin pie (which wasn't pumpkin but nuts and carrots).]

We can't get there from here. That much I do know. I know that if we are going to evolve, it will look like a paradigm shift and a discontinuity. We have to get in those boats and we cannot see the other shore. That's not hope. That's an act of despair.

As Jason puts it, any hope lies on the far side of disillusionment.

Welcome to Monday morning, 2008. A couple of days still to hard freeze. Got work to do in the garden.

cfm in Gray, ME