150 comments on DrumBeat: November 24, 2008
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Curt Cobb in the highlighted article here says, "The key question is whether we have the time for said gradual energy transition."
A more important key question is: is there an energy transition to make?
The 1977 National Academy of Sciences study, “Energy in Transition 1985-2010.” http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11771&page=R1 concluded that the transition required the development of liquid fuels or storage batteries that could store much energy, like diesel or gasoline. Since 1977, no major advances have been made in these respects.
Kenneth E. Boulding (a NAS study panelist) made the following critique of the 1977 NAS study (page 617):
“In preparing for the future, therefore, it is very important to have a wide range of options and to think in advance about how we are going to react to the worst cases as well as the best. The report does not quite do this. There is an underlying assumption throughout, for instance, that we will solve the problem of the development of large quantities of usable energy from constantly renewable sources, say, by 2010. Suppose, however, that in the next 50, 100, or 200 years we do not solve this problem; what then? It can hardly be doubted that there will be a deeply traumatic experience for the human race, which could well result in a catastrophe for which there is no historical parallel.
It is a fundamental principle that we cannot discover what is not there. For nearly 100 years, for instance, there have been very high payoffs for the discovery of a cheap, light, and capacious battery for storing electricity on a large scale; we have completely failed to solve this problem. It is very hard to prove that something is impossible, but this failure at least suggests that the problem is difficult. The trouble with all permanent or long-lasting sources of energy, like the sun or the earth’s internal heat, is that they are extremely diffuse and the cost of concentrating their energy may therefore be very high. Or with a bit of luck, it may not; we cannot be sure. To face a winding down of the extraordinary explosion of economic development that followed the rise of science and the discovery of fossil fuels would require extraordinary courage and sense of community on the part of the human race, which we could develop perhaps only under conditions of high perception of extreme challenge. I hope this may never have to take place, but it seems to me we cannot rule it out of our scenarios altogether.”
Now 30 years later, there is still no indication that we can make the transition.
When I read this mass study in 1981, I knew we were in trouble, as I saw no way to make any transition.
The only hope would be extreme energy conservation and use of oil only for food production and distribution.
Otherwise, we would run off a cliff. We are now off that cliff. Peak Oil is now.
Kenneth Boulding's comments still ring true today. Storage is still a major problem, but one which is also tied into the fact that most of society still understands little about energy and our predicament. We've learned quite a bit about capturing and using renewable energy from the technical point of view and we've learned ways to use energy more efficiently as well. But, the public perception is still based on the fossil fuel model of consumption, especially the suburban model of living, which has a tremendous impact on out economy. What can be done is not what is being done and what can be done won't be the same sort of development path which has dominated the U.S. for the past decades.
Bolding's comment that we can't discover that which isn't there is not understood among the general public, which has been conditioned to think that science and technology will continue to bring forth newer and better gadgets to meet our needs. Our political class (mostly lawyers) exhibit similar lack of understanding, apparently thinking that all which is needed to solve a problem is a new law or regulation. The trouble is, the laws of nature can not be changed by man. Most economists also appear to have little understanding of this reality, as they assume that "growth" will occur as the result of their efforts. But, growth of material consumption on our finite planet must eventually reach limits and after that, begin to decline, even more on a per capita basis with population increasing.
As much as these ideas have been kicked around for more than 30 years, one wonders just what it would take to get these thoughts into the heads of our government and the common man. Well, one way might be for one of the car companies to go bankrupt, which would have a major impact on NASCAR and the culture of mindless consumption which it feeds. NASCAR teams are very expensive and without support from industry, they can't function. We can only hope for better times.
E. Swanson
We've all been surrounded by so much energy for generations now, and we simply cannot see it. To get in a 5000lb vehicle and go hurtling off at incredible speeds across hundreds of miles - this is access to an unimaginable amount of energy for most of human history. But to us, it is nothing. Yet there are very few primary sources of energy on earth, and we must ultimate return to using those in real time, de-rated by our limited ability to harvest and store them. I believe that's a hell of a lot less than we've all gotten used to, especially as we've gotten so used to just using the cheap, easy and concentrated stored solar energy of fossil fuel.
I know that lawyers are not stupid, and I know that "the common man" is capable of far more than is usually demanded. You question "one wonders just what it would take to get these thoughts into the heads of our government and the common man" has already been answered by the media and advertising establishment.
They have made people worry compulsively about body odor and germs on their kitchen counters, and they have made people completely indifferent to the perils of nuclear holocaust. That sort of power is available to make people wake up to the new energy regime, but it is still being misused.
There are a lot of explanations for this -- the "corporations" own the media, etc. But the fact remains, if you want something done, you have to get to people's core beliefs and modify those, and the advertising industry has the most practical knowledge of this.
We need more discussion of how to steer the advertisers and the media -- function will follow form if we succeed.
Ignorance is Strength.
"...the advertising industry has the most practical knowledge of this."
them and the cia and kkkarl rove and the gop.
cfm in Gray, ME
Agree completely.
However, they have the tools-- they just use them for anti-social ends.
Can't that be changed?
If it can't, the human species has a fatal, dead-end flaw. I guess I choose to believe that we can use our psychological knowledge in pro-social ways, but I guess that would have to be considered a "hope", and what Derek Jensen would call a narcotic.
Your attack on NASCAR folk is unfair.
The elite yacht club, jet-set, and travel folks like me have used up billions of barrels of oil more than the poor NASCAR folk.
Look at the hundreds of thousands of cabin cruisers and gas/diesel guzzling "yachts" and "sailboats" with twin 500 hp engines. Look at the private jets and prop aircraft. Look at the millions of vacations to Europe, Greece, Far East, look at all of the big Mercedes/BMW/Suburban/Toyota/Hummer/ and soccer mom SUV's, look at the jets trips to Hawaii and the Virgin Islands. And my month is Spain, driving from place to place :) Ahhhhhhhh, I just need some more $$$$ and I'll do it again. Wow! Look at all of the tony fashion magazines and stores and the enormous houses in the suburbs....... and I could go on for pages...............
Let's not pick on poor people.
When I was 17 I owned a used 1952 Jag XK-120 and burned up the highways and have never stopped :).
I knew about Peak Oil when I was 10 years old, as my dad worked for Atlantic Richfield as a lab technician and he and I knew what was happening then. I've conserved and recycled, but hey, let's get real-- the folk here in the USA use 10X the oil that most poor folk do.
We're all guilty, not just the poor NASCAR folk.
My next trips: driving from here in the State of Veracruz to the Yucatan, Chiapas, and Oaxaca.
Next year, if I get the $$$$, it's off to Greece, Italy, Turkey :)
Maybe so but some of us are more guilty than others and unrepentant bastards like you more so than the rest, hopefully by some stroke of cosmic justice folks like you will get your just rewards. Unfortunately, I'm aware that the universe just doesn't work that way, so party on dude!
It's actually really interesting to look at their projections for today and compare.
For example, their estimate of energy sources available to the US in 2000 under the "enhanced supply" assumptions are (in quads):
The actual consumption by source for 2000 was:
Roughly speaking, the prediction was that oil&gas availability would plummet, and it didn't. Without that, other sources stayed relatively low. (It's interesting to note that energy consumption was 10-15% lower than predicted, despite a population ~10% higher than estimated.)
"Battery systems have undergone significant improvements over the past 25 years."
It would appear that the Journal of the Electrochemical Society disagrees with you.
One likely reason is the substantial level of development in rechargeable batteries, including not only new chemistries (NiMH and Lithium), but continued refinements to new and existing chemistries. Improvements in battery technology have made electric and hybrid-electric cars viable replacements for the internal combustion engine for huge numbers of people, not to mention enabling other technologies such as electric bicycles (of which more will be sold in China this year than cars in the US).
There are options available today that were not available in 1977, and were not forseen. One example of that is how the report includes an entry for solar but not for wind, despite the fact that wind energy is currently much larger, cheaper, and commercially viable, and last year generated about 200TWh.
That doesn't mean their findings should be ignored, of course, but it does mean that they're far from conclusive.
I would argue otherwise.
For bulk storage, pumped hydro is about 70% efficient, and can store enormous amounts. For portable storage, lithium-ion is light and dense enough to make electric and hybrid-electric vehicles with essentially the same characteristics as oil-powered ones.
Sure, it would be nice to have 90% efficient bulk storage instead of 70%, and batteries that are 1lb/mile instead of 5lbs/mile, but those are differences of convenience, not of necessity.
Fundamentally speaking, current tech can replace oil. The only issue is building out that tech fast enough.
Well, the fundamentals are there in some respects, but there is also the issue of affordability and durability. For example, I don't find currently available Li-ion batteries such as are used in notebook computers very encouraging. They're often toast inside of a year, they respond very poorly to deep discharge, and they're bloody expensive. Oh, and the fire issue is perhaps not quite fully solved (so it's hard to understand why the FAA allows them on passenger airplanes when much more innocuous items are forbidden even on cargo airplanes.)
Hi Pitt,
A heavy battery powered truck goes 40 mph on the level for 100 kms before needing a recharge that takes for 4-6 hours.
If the truck had to go up ONE steep hill for 2 kms, it would reduce the 100 kms to about 50, a guess.
We have not made great advances in batteries.
While improvements in battery storage haven't been great as hoped for, there's been major improvements in electronics. In your example, that truck going up the hill would likely be going back down the hill at some other point, thus, the potential energy added to the truck while going up hill could be recovered on the downhill side of the trip. Much of that energy could be returned to the batteries with electric braking. Even though there would not be a 100% return, the result would be much less energy used than you suggest.
E. Swanson
In addition to the considerations you mention, some bright sparks are even looking at regenerative shock absorbing suspension!
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/electric-truck.html#more
A while down the road, of course, but how neat is that?