Hi

The climate sensitivity actually takens into account the feedbacks. However, as the authors say, in the conclusion: "because it is incomaptible with the observations the last decades", is to interpret a bit too much confidence in the instrumental record. Because:

The climate sensitivity is the response of a change, to when the earth is again at equilibrium. This takes centuries. Thus we only have data from temperature from the last 100 years, and no excellent record of the driving forces, more than say the last 20-40 years. Thus we are not sure of how these drivers have forced the climate, and where it will land later on.

IPCC actually says: likely to be in the range 2 to 4.5 °C with a best estimate of about 3°C. For doubling of CO2 equivalent.

I want to point out that the authors scenario (Olduvai) correspond very well to the "low" scenario, all the way to 2050. That is very good, no big deal to discuss. After 2050, in my opinion, all predictions are guesses, and kind of philosophical discussions.

Say if we put 2 ppm CO2 per year until 2050, then we will be at 450 ppm = 1,7 more = about 1 ° warmer
than today. We will see what happens.

All the best.

Which feedbacks does it take into account, exactly? As I understand it, the IPCC only included "fast feedbacks," but since it's recent publication (and even before to some) it has become clear that so called "slow feedbacks" are not all that slow and will play a major roll.

You need to address the major voice on climate change in America, James Hansen, who has been saying that the target must be 350 ppm or less. This is backed up by the careful work over at www.carbonequity.info who give a range from 300-350 as the target. It was after we got into this range that the Arctic ice cap started on its path toward total disappearance, something that the IPCC report didn't consider likely till very late in this century, but which now seems inevitable in the next few years. Humans evolved on a planet where concentrations ranged from about 200-300. Going much beyond that seems unwise at best.

Beyond the albedo (loss of reflectivity from snow and ice) that seems to be a major feedback driving the current rapid rise in Arctic temperatures, the melting of the tundra and now apparently of methane hydrates frozen on the ocean floor represents a huge new feedback currently underway--new vast sources of powerful greenhouse gases (in the near term, methane is over a hundred times more powerful than CO2 as a ghg) now being unleashed in a process we may not be able to stop.

We need to right now do everything we can to reduce the one forcing we do still have some ability to control--CO2 emissions--before these and other powerful feedbacks kick in and drive the planet to a much hotter and less hospitable climate. Waiting around for PO to do the work for us strikes me as the height of irresponsibility.

Targets in the range of 450 to 550 are more the result of political and economic considerations than conclusions drawn purely from looking at the science.

Remember that about half the CO2 we've emitted has been absorbed by the oceans, acidifying them in the process and disrupting basic systems that sustain life in the oceans and on earth (and that sequester CO2). The oceans may be reaching saturation point, at which they start becoming net contributors rather than sinks. That is why recently scientists have been saying that our emissions will continue to overheat the planet for tens of thousands of years, at least.

Also remember that about two degrees of warming are being blocked by the aerosols from coal plants, aerosols that drop out of the atmosphere within days. When we shut down these dirty coal plants, as we must eventually, the planet is going to suddenly warm by two degrees. In other words, we are already past your projections.

I will look further at your links about coal and GW, but this dirty ff still seems to me and others to pose a particularly powerful threat even (especially?) in a post-PO world. I do think that it may be because he has read the stats on peak oil that Hansen has been focused mostly on minimizing coal use as a central strategy to bring down CO2 emissions.

And of course as others have pointed out, even if we were to accept your contention that there are low probabilities that temperatures will increase beyond two degrees with concentrations topping out at 450 ppm, low odds are not much comfort when the stakes are this high. Russian Roulette is a game that most non-suicidal people would not care to play, whether the odds are one in six or one in a hundred. And this is playing RR with the viability of the only viable planet we know.

Also remember that about two degrees of warming are being blocked by the aerosols from coal plants, aerosols that drop out of the atmosphere within days. When we shut down these dirty coal plants, as we must eventually, the planet is going to suddenly warm by two degrees. In other words, we are already past your projections.

Hi dohboi. Could you elaborate more on your comment above? Sounds like a huge dilemma. Leave them online and increase CO2 over the long term. Or shut them down with immediate consequences. No winners here by the sound of it.

Sorry to be so long in responding. There has been some discussion of this over at realclimate and in books like George Monbiot's _Heat_. I'll see if I can dig up some article-length sources on this for you (but others should please feel free to do so, too).

Yes, it is scary. It is the kind of thing that is driving otherwise sober minds to think about strategies that look like global engineering--artificially injecting aerosols into the upper atmosphere (continually) while we close down coal plants....

Moral hazard and other human and non-human unintended consequences are great concerns with any such approach, of course.

Excellent post Dohboi!

"Targets in the range of 450 to 550 are more the result of political and economic considerations than conclusions drawn purely from looking at the science."

That's it in a nutshell. If you listen to those opposed to the idea of CO2 emissions being reduced or elminated, they will conjure up every conceivable notion to dissuade people from believing there is even enough CO2 in the remaining fossil fuels reserves to have any impact beyond a slight warming effect, when in fact the CO2 emitted to date may have already initiated a runaway global warming effect.

It takes 30-40 years for increases in atmospheric temp. to penetrate the oceans, so there is a lag, called thermal inertia. So even though the Arctic is melting far faster than predictions, methane is releasing from the arctic ocean, Siberian tundra is thawing releasing more methane, and acidification of the oceans is accelerating 10 times faster than originally projected, we are all suppose to feel completely at ease spewing as much CO2 as we'd like with negligable projected repercussions.

I met someone that had been in the Air Force, and he tried to convince me that people have a much greater ability to absorb radiation than is generally understood. He made the stuff seem like silly putty, an inert almost meaningless substance. But then I thought about it later and realized that while serving his country he was probably exposed to high levels of radiation and was told those lies to put him at ease.

There's an old saying, consider the source. Always be vigilant to reject a source if it in any way benefits from such proclamations.

Its like Al Gore said, "95% of peer group papers within the science community are in agreement on global warming. It is only non-peer group papers that are evenly split on the topic."

That's it in a nutshell. If you listen to those opposed to the idea of CO2 emissions being reduced or elminated, they will conjure up every conceivable notion to dissuade people from believing there is even enough CO2 in the remaining fossil fuels reserves to have any impact beyond a slight warming effect, when in fact the CO2 emitted to date may have already initiated a runaway global warming effect.

Why don't you take those concerns to those responsible for MAGICC?

Luis,

You cannot use a tool while being fully aware of its limits then claim it's all the tool's fault if you screw up. I.e., your conclusions are made as declarative, unequivocal statements. If you had doubt, you needed to address that, and not just in your disclaimer that is not actually a disclaimer. (See my post below.)

Cheers

So far I haven't emitted any opinion on MAGICC.

Your vernacular is unnecessary.

Luis,

You used it. You made definitive conclusions based upon it. You have made a de facto statement of opinion about it: It suffices for your needs.

If your sole purpose was to compare your findings in Olduvai vs. the IEA WEO, then what the heck was the point? "Here are two studies, both wide of the mark - by a lot - but let's critique those idiots over there!" Is that supposed to make sense to your readers? A mental exercise just for the heck of it? No. It would be analogous to writing a paper on whether the Edsel or the Torpedo was the bigger failure: irrelevant, and who cares?

You excuse your use of MAGICC as needing to use the equivalent of what the IPCC and IEA relied on. OK. Understandable. You want a fair comparison. But that did not require you to accept the program's assumptions. If anything, exploring them would have strengthened your argument as you could have quite fairly done as I have and shown that the assumptions and data they used rendered their analysis nearly useless (as science. As public relations, it did its job). Then you could have, as I have with your presentation, dismissed it outright. Then you could have produced a better analysis not hobbled by bad data and poor assumptions. That would have only highlighted how poor their report was.

What you have done instead is repeat their errors, then compound them with even more egregious errors. They, at least, don't dismiss reality. When you and Euan say 1.6C by centuries end you turn the entire discussion into a joke. Again: That much warming is already going to happen just with the carbon that is already in the system.

So, in the end, you were bound to the MAGICC and its assumptions because to update them would have left you with no axe to grind with the IEA on the climate angle because you would have reached the same conclusions. Couldn't have that, now, eh?

You two should have limited yourselves to the energy issues. Might have been a fine paper.

Cheers