Oil hit $47.40 in overnight trading down $100 from an all time high of $147.50 in July.

A clear example that a)futures prices have small correlation with long term scarcity and b)that financial assets dwarf the commodities representing real assets. As Schlesinger said, "complacency or panic".



**EDIT** The Jan 2009 front month contract actually traded $148.65 on 7/11 (ironic date, yes) so has fallen over $101.5 from peak. I was mistaken.

CNBC is becoming intolerable. This morning they were going on and on about peak oil - and how wrongheaded it was. They wanted to call up T. Boone Pickens and taunt him. They're using the term "demand destruction" over and over again, not even realizing it's Simmons and his ilk who put that term on the map.

Its sad that they don't see the implications of this. There are now many more oil people than Simmons and Pickens who understand the clear and present danger low prices mean to long term flow rates. Each day we spend under replacement cost narrows the gap between natural decline and what we will observe in real time. At this point, the steepness of the decline rate in the next decade is going to be the name of the game.

And Peak Oil, though based on scientific tenets, will never be taken seriously again by mainstream. As global oil production drops, there will now always be a rationalization - 'if it weren't for the credit crisis...if it weren't for the depression....if it weren't for the _________ war, we'd have 100 mbpd of production', etc. Receding energy horizons are here to stay, but they will be viewed with skepticism likely forever.

One can hope that policymakers either understand these things, don't have TV, don't watch CNBC or all of the above.

If the policy makers are thick enough to give credence to CNBC anyway, they are certainly not going to understand the question in the first place.
Have you shot a moose today? :-)

I have found - so far at least - that an effective way of countering the "oil prices have plummeted; therefore Peak Oil is a myth" crowd is by pointing out the simple fact that this is because demand has temporarily dropped below supply due to the economic crisis. When I then go on to assure them that prices will spike again no later than when incipient economic growth leads demand to exceed (declining) supply again, I get no counter-arguments.

If properly executed, I think this line of argument could also have a substantial soundbite impact when deployed on the likes of CNBC, CNN, etc., by Peak Oil yay-sayers.

Probably because they are tired of hearing about it or think you are a crank, not because they agree.
The nature of this beast is that those who are correct about our long term energy predicament (and that would include the majority reading this site), will be incorrect until the moment they are correct. At which time they, nor the people they warned, will be too thrilled about it.

Actually, if it's at all heartening, I think that the argument was at least momentarily persuasive in all the settings in which I have given it in recent months. An added factoid that I would mention that gave it even greater force was that demand for oil in the U.S. was nearly a full 10 percent lower this late summer/early fall than at the same time a year before. That factoid has the effect of giving real force to the demand-drop side of the argument; I think that people connect the dots between the demand-drop and the causative price spike culminating in July of this year on their own.

The recent head line "US officially in recession for over a year now" confirms what I have been telling people for the last several months wrt demand destruction.

People were trying to convince me that Americans are getting "green" and cutting back out of concern for the environment and energy supply. To which I said “no, they are cutting back because they simply can’t afford it.

I now add that back at $4.00 a gal gas they couldn’t afford the high price of filling up but now things are so bad that at $1.90 they plain don’t have the money to fill up.

BTW this is a real conversation killer.

What stroke me most in the recent Petroleum Status Reports is the amount of jet fuel supplied to market - down 17.7% from last year!

It looks like Americans are mostly cutting back on flying instead of driving, compared to that gasoline demand is down only 2.8%. I'm wondering what is going on with the airlines right now and how are they holding up amidst such a demand drop; I would speculate that the recent oil price lows are somehow offsetting their losses but what happens if oil rebounds again, by, say next summer?

Basically, airlines are consolidating (e.g. NorthWest and Delta) and cutting back on flights to smaller markets. The age of permagrowth is over; we'll see a lot of things now going in reverse. Airports in smaller cities may eventually close down. I read somewhere that there was a cutback of 11% to 12% in flights since last year; perhaps the remaining reduction in fuel comes from more efficient ways of flying the aircraft (less idling on the ground, longer glides in to landing).

Another effect is flying newer, more fuel efficient a/c.

Vague memory says that a 737-300 uses 16% more fuel than a 737-700 with winglets (same # of seats in both, the -700 replaced the -300 in a major redesign).

737-200s, DC-10s, L-1011s and several more older, fuel guzzling types are gone from US fleets. The next generation is beginning to retire as well.

Best Hopes for the 787,

Alan

The 787 is way behind schedule with first test flight planned for beginning of this year and still has not flown. Airlines are cancelling orders as NW Air (now Delta) is reducing its order for the 787 because it is too expensive on a per seat basis. Read this yesterday, but cannot find the link.
I doubt US airlines will have capital to invest in buying many 787's unless the Feds pick up the tab, which is unlikely. The investment banks are maxed out and Boeing may not be able to take on more debt to finance these for the airlines. With oil at $50 or less per barrel I would be surprised to see the non US airlines fulfill all the orders for the 787 as international travel dwindles. Look at British Airways trying to merge with Qantas in an effort to regain financial strength. Airlines are feeling recession more than most industries (especially those foreign ones financed by oil revenues that have sunk by 60%) and first thing to go will be orders for new planes IMO.

Anyone know what the airline experiance was in the 70s when prices went up 10x?

Is this 'blueprint' for what might happen in the coming decades but on a much larger scale?

Regards, Nick.

One example of this is American Airlines is pulling in deliveries of its 47 new 737-800's from 2016 to 2009 to replace a portion of its fleet of aging MD-80s. Their ultimate goal is to improve their fuel efficiency by 20% over the next 12 years. Although the 737-800 is a much better aircraft in many ways, I will miss the nice roomy seats and 2-3 seating configuration (compared to 3-3 for the 737) of the MD-80.

The airlines parked the equivalent of the entire Northwest Airlines fleet in Arizona. Gives new meaning to "Twilight in the Desert".

Hello Wiseco,

'Wild & Crazy' Speculation?

All these planes parked in the desert will be a great future resource of light, hi-tech metals, and other items ideally suited for recycling into the Nike/Tiger Woods signature brand of postPeak 'Tiger Tools':

1. Hi-tech bicycles, cargo-tricycles, and E-bikes of various shapes & sizes.

2. Light, but very strong and long lasting, human-scaled, narrow-gauge locos & railcars [passenger & container freight] much improved than even this beauty:

http://www.monon.monon.org/sobendpixs4/03-26storyland-train2.jpg
http://www.monon.monon.org/sobendpixs4/03-26storyland-train1.jpg

3. Lightweight, but very durable farming [see kite-powered manure surfboard posting] and gardening hand-tools including many different wheelbarrow versions. Carbon-fiber and titanium scythes?

4. Again, lightweight & rugged, narrow-gauge SpiderWebBikes with quickly attachable/detachable, rechargeable 'Tiger-Spiders' to assist the pedaler up a brutal incline.

4. All of the above as the 'ribcages' to support the standard-gauge 'spine & limbs' buildout of Alan Drake's RR & TOD ideas.

Tiger really should hire me as his postPeak financial advisor as golfing goes belly up. :)

Consider Leanan's toplink on solar assist for Vacaville:

http://www.sacbee.com/129/story/1441106.html

If one mentally extrapolates this trend out: Tiger plowing up high-end golf resorts/hotels/communities should help keep them viable as the former 18,36,54-hole course layouts will now provide fresh foodstuffs so that they can continue to sell 5-course meals, fancy wines, and have fresh flowers in the lobby.

Tiger [or those working for him], as Champion-certified Master Gardeners could earn a good living personally leading resort guests through the flowers & herbs, grapefields, veggie plots, the winery, and so on. The guests, instead of golfing, would have their fun collecting the stuff that the chef would prepare for their dinner later that night, powered by solar devices on the resort roofs, animal sheds, winery roof, etc. IMO, walking or pedaling away, with a picnic of wine, bread, and cheese in a flower garden, sure beats chasing a little white ball.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

You might not be that far off. I understand that parts from the never-flown Soviet space shuttle Buran ended up being recycled into a hog feeder.

Hello WNC Observer,

If everyone on TOD has already emailed Tiger's website [please do if you haven't already]: I bet the Peak Outreach volume [80,000/month?] was sufficient that Nike and Tiger's managers got curious enough to read TOD, then search/download/copy every posting that has 'Tiger Woods' included. :)

Thus, they are probably now working out plans to benefit both themselves and Tiger financially postPeak [and I will probably never see a cent]. Plagiarizing my ideas may prove extremely profitable for some--such is life. Example: I vaguely recall some TODer making 7,000% in a month off one of my NPK postings.

Renting a bedroom in the middle of countless asphalt acres in the center of North America's largest desert doesn't strike me as the best long-term plan--I may eventually have to 'Fleam' too.

N0, no, the contrary is true:
As you can see on the image above
even more people people will fly -
however not in a plane,
but off the cliff...

Splat.

souperman2 oil prices rose during half of the time we where officially in a recession.

Lag time can be a nasty creature—it beats you when you have dropped your guard...

Gas only became "too expensive" toward the end of the run up though.

Many were very cavalier about 4 buck gas for a while acting as if it was no big deal as we are all just pre-rich anyway.

Many are still in denial or just have a $hit load of dough.

Now at 1.85 gal a lot of people just don't have the money (layed off) or are playing it close to the vest.

Don't get me wrong I am all in with your big picture Analysis I just think that the "real" economic pressures are greater than most acknowlege.

I've said a few times that the role of oil prices in this bubble was indirect. Not only did gasoline prices increase but because oil prices where increasing it caused a number of other price increase particularly in food. This indirectly lowered the amount of money people could afford for houses and also caused them to pause in there spending. This played a role in popping the housing bubble as discretionary income fell.

Understand that.

1.) VMT had been falling since 2005.
2.) The housing bubble and large parts of the economy started into decline in 2005 thus a increasing precentage of the population was having hard times.

3.) And official recession finally was called back in Dec 2007. We can assume that the economy was in bad shape several quarters before this. Regional recession where already occuring with job loss etc.

The price of oil continued to rise even as the demand destruction from a poor economy where already well advanced.

The conclusion is that the price did not fall because people ran out of money. Demand could very well have dipped to the point that supply was ample or far more probable the upheaval in the monetary system wiped out oil prices along with every other commodity and basically every single asset class.

Demand today would thus may be higher the same or at best marginally lower then what it was in 2007 and first half of 2008. Oil exports are almost certainly lower.

Now with that said even with the financial explanation we also have a very interesting year as far as oil supply. With a very large slug of what seems to be light sweet crude showing up from Saudi Arabia starting in October and just now ending. This was the last of a series of curious events in the oil supply starting second half of 2007. My opinion is that they were short term in nature time will tell.

Thus barring SPR releases in a matter of weeks or months at most will will find out the real nature of supply and demand. If I'm right then we will see a rapid rise in prices.

If I'm wrong then I really question if peak oil is going to be a huge issue. The economy esp globally really has not contracted all that much we have plenty of room for conservation etc. If these small contraction are all thats required to drop the price of oil then the economy should be able to readily accommodate peak oil. It won't be a lot of fun but its something that we can easily overcome. As the economy tries to grow oil prices will rise the growth will stop oil prices will fall. A few rounds of this along with a steady increase in base price from real depletion and our economy will naturally transition off of oil as needed. Theoretically this is possible because of the waste in the system we could theoretically do it. However in my opinion this is really dependent on if the current still fairly mild economic contraction was sufficient to cause enough true demand destruction to drop the price of oil.

As I said over the very short term the market is well supplied with oil have actually gotten a lot of oil during a traditionally slow period in the fall. It was actually enough to ensure the market was well supplied regardless of demand if you read the weekly EIA reports we are now in the top half of the five year range. Regardless of price or demand right now the market is well supplied based on the five year historical trend. If this was a short term condition then it will pass over the coming weeks and we will get a true picture.

If over the next few months the world continues to be well supplied with oil and the price remains low then we need to really rethink how peak oil will effect us and what we need to do to mitigate it. I will say at least from my market analysis that the current price is unstable and if low prices are real then we will head down to 30 a barrel. The other move is towards 70 which is another short term stability point. It could stay at 70 for a week a day or a month but is another stable point. If you watch the oil market I think you will see that its trying to transition from 50 to one of the other two stable points 30 or 70. If your right then we will see 30 dollar oil.

Hi Mike,

Thanks and can you possibly clarify:

1) Are you saying that:

"If these small contraction are all thats required to drop the price of oil then the economy should be able to readily accommodate peak oil."

is substantially different than

"Demand could very well have dipped to the point that supply was ample or far more probable the upheaval in the monetary system wiped out oil prices along with every other commodity and basically every single asset class."

In other words, are you saying that there is something about "the upheaval in the monetary system" that had effects above and beyond the "small contractions" (small contractions due to the price run-up, you mean)?

So, that the price volatility, such as that predicted by Deffeyes, is really not a bad thing, necessarily?

So, we don't really need a steady (unidirectional), presumably slow, rise in prices as the optimal price scenario for peak mitigation?

(Gosh, this sounds almost optmistic. :))

2) Could you possibly re-state, expand and/or explain this sentence further?

"If over the next few months the world continues to be well supplied with oil and the price remains low then we need to really rethink how peak oil will effect us and what we need to do to mitigate it."

Now memmel, a super doomer, is predicting $30 oil and saying that peak oil may not be a problem after all. I guess the much reviled Yergin is finally having the last laugh!

EDIT: Since the last oil bull appears to have thrown in the proverbial towel, maybe this is the bottom and it is time to invest in oil again.

The futures market in oil agrees with memmel's assessment, that oil prices will rise, as the further into the future you wish to buy oil the higher the price.
The argument I have seen presented is that it is hedge funds deleveraging which has led to the present price crash.

A few weeks ago Memmel's assessment was that the price of oil will be $160/barrel by end of this year. Now he is saying that $30/barrel is a possibility. With such a wide range, the prediction is practically meaningless.

It is pretty difficult to get the exact timing right.
But it is clear that memmel's central projection is that oil prices will rise shortly.

I'd be less certain, as it seems a race between depression and shortage to me, so you place yer money, and yer takes yer chance.
It is a bit like trying to work out whether we will get inflation or deflation.
Either way we are in trouble.
Whatever happens to oil prices in nominal terms then it must get less affordable as less is available, it is just unclear how much of that will be due to demand destruction and how much to the price going up.
The time frame for that is wider though, out to perhaps 2012.

If over the next few months the world continues to be well supplied with oil and the price remains low then we need to really rethink how peak oil will effect us and what we need to do to mitigate it.

Mike, this really seems like a stretch to me. Let's say there's a net export decline rate of even a very conservative 3%...you're saying the world economy will accommodate 10 consecutive years of that without the financial system entering a death spiral? 30% less oil to the importing countries in ten years?

I think you're expecting a very short term phenomenon to last much longer than is reasonable.

This YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7vGDwGLU7s) explains very briefly and very convincingly what is happening now with oil price volatility, and how it is caused by peak oil. It really is quite basic, and I find this video helps persuade a lot of people.

Basically, it involves a see-saw between supply decline and demand destruction. Many predicted this, on this website and others.

I hope I am not running too long repeating stuff that most of us know, but this is basically how I explain it to others:

As usual, the markets find an equilibrium or a solid trend line when viewed from the long-term perspective, but in the short term, you have swings from one side to the other anytime something in the supply or demand changes. The so-called "equilibrium" can only be achieved, in a shorter time frame, when conditions are very stable. The long-term equilibrium or trend line is actually only an average of the many and sometimes violent short-term swings.

Each spike back up in oil prices will probably reach a higher level than the last spike before falling back. This is because the most marginal uses of oil (the least essential and beneficial) get sacrificed first. These are the things we can afford to do without, relatively easily. But as oil becomes more scarce, it starts cutting into more and more essential uses of oil. Thus, the price premium we are willing to pay before pulling back, goes higher. Still, at some point that price "pain point" is reached, some sacrifice is made, and the price falls back again temporarily until supply declines "catch up" to the reduction in demand. Or, if the price falls enough, demand may pick back up until it hits the slowly declining supply limits again.

Our fast-paced and ever-changing culture reinforces short-term thinking. We see this in oil prices. "Gas is high. Somebody DO something!" "Oh, gas is lower now. Great! Back to BAU. All those peak oilers are cranks." But long-term thinking is something we have to really train ourselves to do.

Fortunately, I think an increasing number of people have realized that the low gas prices won't be here for too long. Still, every person I talk to has a different theory as to why. "They lowered the price because of the election." "It's the oil companies (or OPEC), they're manipulating the markets." But as is often true, the best explanation is the simplest: that supply and demand curves interact as shown in the video. People "get it" when I show it to them.

Another effect to note is that when demand falls faster or relative to supply a powerful counter signal is sent in both directions. To the producer 'hey cut back don't start new marginal production' and to the consumer 'hey consume more, oil is plentiful and cheap'.

If for some reason the signals aren't received or one or both parties can't respond the signal continuously gets re-enforced until one or both sides 'gets it'. I agree with many here who have said that a volatile tug-o-war (played with a giant bungee perhaps) in this area is a symptom of reduced cushion brought on by peak oil.

There probably will be a healthy price spike coming once the supply and demand curves do accelerate back tword each other. I'm not so sure the price has to go extremely high for very long in order for this to inflict significant pain on the consumption side this time round.

As global oil production drops, there will now always be a rationalization - 'if it weren't for the credit crisis...if it weren't for the depression....if it weren't for the _________ war, we'd have 100 mbpd of production', etc.

Yup. Which is pretty much how I figured it would go. That's why I never bought the "peak lite" / "political peak oil" / "above ground factors" thing. Above ground factors have always been part of oil production. You can't discount them, in the past or in the future.

And Peak Oil, though based on scientific tenets, will never be taken seriously again by mainstream.

Nah, that goes too far. PO made quite a bit of headway prior to the crunch. Admission of PO is not fundamentally antithetical to the interests of TPTB. Right now they're trying to sell a big juice-up, so it's inconvenient. But at some point they might want to sell war: "You want oil? There's a finite amount. We have to fight for it." That's been a subtext in some right wing propaganda all along.

Denninger has no sympathy for California.

Let's get down to brass tacks - Californicated is screwed because:

1. It has become a sanctuary for illegal immigrants, who do not pay their share of taxes but they do consume services, including police, fire, medical (especially) and education (especially.) The latter two cost the state an insane amount of money which they cannot recover. These liberal programs and policies are the cause of your funding shortfall and until and unless you address them, you've got no chance at solving the problem.

2. Second up is your insane union pay and retirement scales for state employees. Get over yourselves. These are well-publicized and outrageous, and must go.

3. You have an insane amount of energy resource available just offshore. Stop obstructing the development of it.

Yup. It's going to be pretty hard to get people to take peak oil seriously.

I think his other comments are harbingers, too. People are going to really turn against immigrants, especially those of the illegal variety. And there's not going to be much sympathy for government workers.

I really was disappointed in Karl for this post--all the anti-immigration ranting just ruined it for me. Sounded like Fox News or Lou Dobbs. Kinda like Mish when he rants about Austrian economics...I just have to disregard it.

And there's not going to be much sympathy for government workers.

But, we may all be government workers before long.

...it's Simmons and his ilk who put that term on the map.

Leanan, though the word "ilk" is really a synonym for "like" or "Simmons and people like him," it is used usually in a derogatory manner. I am sure that is not how you meant it however. Nevertheless, a lot of people, not realizing the true definition of the word, are likely to get the wrong idea.

Ron Patterson

Ilk merely means 'kind' in the type sense. The negative connotations come from those who have used the word pejoratively perhaps thinking ill-k.

It's from Old English ilca meaning same and from Scots usage 'of that ilk' meaning of the same place ,estate or name. The dictionary says usually derogatory, probably stemming from English derogation of the Scots. Bemoaning the loss of the original meaning is crying over spilled ilk.

Hi Petro (Leanan, Ron),

Petro, my take on what Ron is saying is not at all that he's "...bemoaning the loss of the original meaning."

He's trying to let Leanan know that she may have mistakenly chosen a word.

The word she chose, does - (from my POV and experience of common English usage) - have a negative connotation. Since we believe Leanan, in general respects, agrees with (and etc.) Simmons, Ron believes Leanan didn't mean to diss him, in other words.

Ron is trying to be helpful. Both to Leanan and to newer TOD drum readers.

CNBC is becoming intolerable...

I suspect this is the way it has to go down. Orwell called it MINITRUE or something like that. CNBC will remain firmly "on message", the facts notwithstanding.

CNBC is a never ending source of amusement… in case they haven’t noticed the wheels have come flying off the wagon of their much heralded “consumer driven economy”. Yet they can’t crow enough about the drop in oil prices.

I guess they also are having trouble connecting the dots that gas at $2.00 vs. $1.50 vs. $1.00 a gallon isn’t much going to matter to people who are FLAT BROKE and can no longer turn to the credit card as Plan B (because so many were already using it as Plan A).

Oh well as long as the CNBC propagandists can continue to fill up their Denalis and Escalades then this is a triumph of the “market” over some stupid science.

Party on CNBC dudes…

a)futures prices have small correlation with long term scarcity

Many thought there was such a correlation when the bubble was inflating.

Well it can only be one or the other. High correlation or little/zero correlation (or I guess there could be 'medium' correlation of oil prices to long term scarcity but you know what I meant.) We have less oil in the ground than a year ago. Is $47 a better policy indicator of our long term supply situation or is $147? My point is that futures don't give lead time because they are dominated by people caring about this quarters or even this weeks, returns. As long as financial players can lever up and 'participate' in oil and gas trading, the prices will overshoot in both directions and cause energy decision makers to be hamstrung by indecision. I've written about this problem for over 3 years here.

A Closer Look at Oil Futures
Natural Gas - A Tale of Two Markets
Oil Price Volatility for 2008
Peak Oil and Reflexivity and Peak Oil
Hedge Funds, Hurricanes and Energy Markets

Dec 07 Global Public Media interview on global deleveraging sending oil back down to $50.

Well it can only be one or the other.

Not at all. The question is whether a large price spike is caused primarily by fundamentals or primarily by emotion (speculation...whatever). IOW... how much "bubble" is involved in the price?

We have less oil in the ground than a year ago.

That's just a variation on "oil is a finite resource". It always sounds great once you're already inside the "true believer" circle, but it adds nothing to the facts. Oil is finite whether the peak was last year or ten years from now or two centuries.

This started as a global margin call only peripherally related to oil. I wrote here about how the deleveraging has not just been in oil but in ALL financial assets. (Also, here near the bottom). If it was an oil bubble, oil would have sold off and everything else would have stayed roughly the same. As it stands for the 3 years prior to July 2008, commodities had small correlations with other asset classes. Since July there is a .9+ R^2 between oil, the Euro/Yen cross and hedge fund aggregate index.

It was a financial asset bubble. Oil got carried down with the rest. Because of that, the oil 'market' is now signalling that we needn't do anything urgent because gasoline is cheaper than any other liquid for sale. How can you not see that this is problematic for policymakers?



If it was an oil bubble, oil would have sold off and everything else would have stayed roughly the same.

With respect... that's not really the case. You can't say there was no NASDAQ bubble just because the S&P fell too. They didn't run up to the same degree and didn't decline to the same degree either.

Similarly, you can't just look at the recent decline and correlate it in time to stock market declines... you have to look at the rise in commodity prices before hand.

Wha??

The last gasp rally in oil - perhaps the last 20% was due to some hedge fund and asset management players covering or so I've heard. Yes, speculation played A role in the last stages of the rally. But on the downside the story is NOT about oil but something greater, that is impacting all financial assets - currencies, corn, cotton, cocoa, oil, stocks, etc. So you are giving equal weight to the uptrade and the downtrade and it is not a fair comparison. It's like going up a mountain with the aid of an elephant and being chased down by a giant herd of mastodons. The situations were different.

As I've said, the oil cornucopians now have a couple years of respite (unfortunately that means Obama and others will be given wrong advice on energy). Only until after deleveraging is over and economy stabilizes will we see oils relative scarcity reassert via financial price mechanisms. Though there are many non-financial scenarios where this fact could prove out as well.

Never in the history of our financial markets have we seen the correlations and volatility of the last 3 months. This has been a once in an era event, with very complex causes. To sit here and say - 'see oil was in a bubble' doesn't help anyone. Today is the first day of the rest of our lives - are we going to waste it on analyzing what has happened or come up with some sort of coherent plan to make the future better?

Today is the first day of the rest of our lives - are we going to waste it on analyzing what has happened or come up with some sort of coherent plan to make the future better?

We'll waste it, but analysis won't be the culprit, rationalizing will. We are going to spend the next few years trying to "get back to where we used to be" and will never even think to ask the question - is "where we used to be" somewhere we really want to go?

Of course, the Cornucopians are using price as a proxy for production, because they would rather talk about (falling demand driven) lower prices rather than basically flat crude oil production. The world will probably pay somewhere around a trillion dollars more for oil in 2008 than in 2005, for basically the same amount of crude oil. This is what the Cornucopians don't want to talk about.

In any case, as we all know, Hubbert analyzed the areas under production rate versus time curves, i.e., cumulative production. He pointed out that a one-third increase in URR for the Lower 48 only postponed the projected peak by five years. As noted up the thread, on a cumulative basis, i.e., in respect to the area under the curve, we have seen a deficiency between what we would have produced at the 5/05 C+C rate worldwide and what we actually produced--through the second half of 2005, through all of 2006 and 2007 and taking the EIA data at face value, through the first eight months of 2008.

We have seen a pick up in total liquids, which Simmons attributes to the dying gasps of several large oil fields as their gas caps are blown down. But the EIA data show two years of annual, and so far accelerating, declines in net oil exports, with Russia, IMO, joining countries like Norway and Mexico in entering the terminal decline stage of net oil exports.

Don't even look at oil the price of rice got hammered and last I checked people don't cut back substantially on rice consumption because some American banks are having problems.

The volatility in price must be unprecedented. The wackiness of the "bailout sequel #34" coming at us it seems like daily. I do not remember a time like this ever. Stability is not happening. I think we are headed for a "wheel coming off" situation, be it oil, finance, political unrest. The world leaders are in "reactionary mode", miscalculations are a given. The time for planning was before TSHTF.

I wonder if it's not another rear view mirror situation, where you look in the rear view mirror, see this wheel running along the road behind you and into the ditch and the bad feeling is only starting to creep into your gut. I fear we're into triage now. The revisions to state and local budgets are going to be horrendous. The health care disease insurance industry is going to implode when those budgets crash.

cfm in Gray, ME

Today is the first day of the rest of our lives - are we going to waste it on analyzing what has happened or come up with some sort of coherent plan to make the future better?

I vote we come up with a coherent plan, we will all vote on it, then we will sell it to the world. We will all get a soap box, take it to the town square in our respective cities or towns, then say: "Listen up people, here is how we are going to save the world!"

My point is Nate, it simply doesn't matter what plan we come up with, in the grand scheme of things it will be worth about as much as a bucket of warm spit. Lester Brown has a grand plan: Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization This link takes you to the table of contents. He has covered about everything, including peak oil. Problem is Nate, the world has paid him not one bit of attention.

The world moves at the will of 6.7 individual people, the vast majority of whom are concerned with their own daily lives totay, next week and a few even plan for next year. No one is going to implement Plan B 3.0, or Nate's plan, or Ron's plan, or anyone else's plan.

We are but observers Nate. Of course there is something you can do, you can make plans to improve your own individual chances of survival, and that of your family. But you are not going to make the future better for the world. The world just is not listening, and never will listen.

Ron Patterson

In some ways I recoil at the fatalism in your post.

Yet in some ways I agree. There are Transition Initiatives (I like that effort very much), there is Plan C from the Community Solution, there is the Plan B 3.0 that you mention, and more. The point that I agree with you on is that no single plan is likely to gain enough mindshare to become dominant.

No one will ever agree 100% on anything.

But history shows great trends and movements do arise, usually almost spontaneously or in response to the times in which they occur. Perhaps at the right time, all of these "plans" and gathering awareness will make a collective difference even though no single one dominates. The times are changing, and like you say, in some sense (the macro sense) we can only observe. Yet we are part of the times. We may be swimming against the tide right now, but it may be that the tide will eventually come "our way". Soon, we may be swimming with the current instead of against it.

Will that "save" us in the way that most currently want? No but it may provide a way to a softer descent than many here foresee.

But history shows great trends and movements do arise, usually almost spontaneously or in response to the times in which they occur.

I might be more convinced if you could provide an example or two from history. Of what are you thinking when you say "history shows"? I'm having a hard time coming up with any examples on my own.

Great trends and movements?

I think history, at least what I have perused has shown that in times of severe famine that people will do anything to secure food.

I believe a good example is given by Eusebius. He recorded that one woman was so deprived that she slaughtered and cooked her on child.

Its nice to have this rosy outlook on events but when hunger strikes I would trust no one. No one. What each of us stores and holds for our own survival will be imperative and will not be shared IMO and should not. The wise one will seek to provide. The non-believers will wait until its far too late then expect others to provide.

Did not Katrina teach us anything?
As the police are not there to 'protect' you they also may resort to taking it from you. Power does tend to corrupt.

Airdale

Two that come to mind for me are societal attitudes towards smoking and towards drinking and driving.

We are but observers Nate. Of course there is something you can do, you can make plans to improve your own individual chances of survival, and that of your family. But you are not going to make the future better for the world. The world just is not listening, and never will listen.

Exactly! The problem with over-shoot is that there is no acceptable solution anyway (or else it wouldn't be over-shoot). Not everyone is going to get through the ensuing bottleneck. Those that do, will do so because they were lucky enough to be in a niche that was marginally more sustainable than the others.

Given the way the World is handling the global financial crisis, which is arguably within our power to solve, then there is little hope when it comes to the less solvable problems of Energy and Climate Change.

As individuals we can improve our chances, but as a whole we probably cannot.

Not everyone is going to get through the ensuing bottleneck.

What makes you so certain that the impending demographic bottleneck isn't going to close completely? All species eventually become extinct. Human extinction may not be an "acceptable" consequence of carrying capacity "over-shoot" but nature doesn't care what you or anyone else considers acceptable. Populations only some tens of percent over K sometimes collapse all the way to zero. What gives you confidence that humans are any different?

Doesn't matter, whatever comes, we're going to have to deal with it until we can't. Survival isn't guaranteed, but it doesn't alter the need to try and survive. All that individuals can do is try and improve their chances of survival by preparing for the worst whilst hoping for the best.

Populations only some tens of percent over K sometimes collapse all the way to zero. What gives you confidence that humans are any different?

THE INTRODUCTION, INCREASE, AND CRASH OF REINDEER ON ST. MATTHEW ISLAND

Abstract: Reindeer (Rangifer tarandus), introduced to St. Matthew Island in 1944, increased from 29 animals at that time to 6,000 in the summer of 1963 and underwent a crash die-off the following winter to less than 50 animals... The pattern of reindeer population growth and die-off on St. Matthew Island has been observed on other island situations with introduced animals and is believed to be a product of the limited development of ecosystems and the associated deficiency of potential population-regulating factors on islands. Food supply, through its interaction with climatic factors, was the dominant population regulating mechanism for reindeer on St. Matthew Island...

So much for Rudolph. Merry Christmas.

LoL Your post inspired me to google the status of the St. Matthew's Island reindeer herd today, and the search led to a post by TOD's very own Totoneila, an exert from which is included here:

"We would welcome the release
of BioWMDs and as soon as signs of "Blackpox" infection started to show we could go to a neighborhood euthanasia center and exit painlessly in the presence of loving family members. We would understand that Nature is culling the herd and not blame the "humanimal wolves" for releasing the "Blackpox"..."

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlasBabylon/message/17650?l=1

You need to post such fun stuff on TOD more often, Bob!

EDIT: And BTW, the reindeer on St. Matthew's Island became extinct in the 1980s.

Yep, I have lots of posted speculation all over the web constantly hoping that those 'Smarter than Me' will come up with even better ideas for Optimal Overshoot Decline. Time will tell...

You're cool Bob. I enjoy your posts & share your concern over the fertilizer situation.

As gecko's graph shows, the St. Matthew's Island reindeer herd crashed from >6K to 42 in one winter. It did not crash all the way to extinction but this relict population idled along for a couple decades, never attaining anywhere near its former size, before going completely extinct. Similarly, I expect human population to crash during the early half of the 21st century, all the way to extinction in the northern hemisphere, with relict populations in the southern hemisphere persisting into the early 23rd century.

I found out about peak oil 117 days ago (yes, I've kept track) when I stumbled upon Matt Savinar's website. From there I found my way to Dieoff and from there to TOD. Along the way I have read Defeyes, Catton, Ponting, Klein, Taleb, Heinberg, Kunstler, Greer...and others.

I have not become reassured that we face anything but severe hardship. Because I am new to all of this, and because I have no formal training in any of the fields assessing or having impact upon this situation, I have assumed that most of this "hunch" I carry around is borne of my own internal framework. A lot of the discussion here on TOD helps to dispel my gloom because of its optimistic tenor. I truly need to hear engineers and other hard scientists discussing options as though it is possible for them to dampen the effect of "peak everything"

However, when I see my own conclusions in black and white and posted by someone else - I really sit up and take notice. (!!)

All I can say DD is: I reeeeaaaaly hope you're wrong. (and me too)

Regards,

Al

I'm with Greer. How can you plan for an unknown and unknowable future? Forget planning, and prepare to improvise.

Sorry, can someone tell me again why planning and improvising are mutually exclusive?

I don't think anyone's arguing that they're mutually exclusive. Just that planning is a waste of time. While examining the problem, as we do here, may not be. The opposite of what many people think.

In the military they have a saying: "No plan survives contact with the enemy".

The PROCESS of planning is useful, nevertheless.

Military planning is different. Greer spells it out in the article I linked to. He does think that planning is useful and effective when you have a reasonable idea of the situation you will be in. And I think most military planning falls into that category.

Just that planning is a waste of time.

Yes, I hear that sometimes from my coaching clients. Please don't take this the wrong way but mostly that is a cover for being lazy or never having been through an effective planning exercise. I have never gone through a planning exercise that a client has said afterward was a waste of time. On the contrary, they always say they saw things they never saw before (i.e. they gained insight), they saw a clear pathway to accomplishing their goals (not a small thing -- it makes a big difference with motivation and effective use of time) and so on.

Among the things people learn while planning for energy descent are:

  • how deficient in self-reliant skills they are (again, no small thing to gain this realization) and thus which skills they should start learning
  • that a different mindset is required for a post-peak world
  • that some products will not be available forever
  • etc.

And if the planning process is facilitated by an experienced "planner" ("strategy consultant" is the more usual word in business), the facilitator will make sure to ask the probing questions that were never asked before. That's often when people experience "aha!" moments.

So my apologies if I don't give much credence to the view that planning is a waste of time. Reality may not line up with the plan (it usually doesn't) but the planning process will make a very large difference, in my experience.

Agreed. For example, there's a difference in lifestyles between those who planned for their retirement 30 years out and those who planned 5 years out.

My plan, based on my knowledge of Peak Oil (which I executed this year), was to move well within the city limits of my hometown, to a small energy efficient home, near public transportation. My home has a prefab fireplace, and I have plenty of wood. I plan on replacing my 60's era windows with energy efficient ones come spring, and put in an open loop geothermal unit. I also own a Prius (outright), and I plan on paying my mortgage down as soon as humanly possible. I have no other debt, save a student loan.

My friends have huge houses, in the burbs, with their Tacomas and ARMs for mortgages and are leveraged beyond belief so they can live the 'American Dream'.

They will be living the 'American Nightmare' soon enough, while I hunker down for the energy descent... Yes, planning does make a difference.

(Edit)And you know what? Even if things do go back to BAU, even if things are 'normal' again, nothing I have done has made me worse off regardless... In fact, it has made me *better* off. No matter the outcome, I will be in better shape...

The buddha in you is smiling.

Ah yes thirty years ago 1978; I started working on plan C of my retirement. Plan A was started back in 1960 on our first wedding anniversary that lasted about 2 years. Plan B went into effect and lasted about 18 years, Plan C lasted 5 years. Plan D is still going on as of today, how long will it last, I haven't the vaguest idea, I just hope it doesn't last much longer. My folks went through the Great Depression, and I have no desire to share that experience with them where ever they are today.

the old hermit

I've just activated Plan E, retirement-wise: die young. This is a direct result of the sudden failure of my medical plan: don't get sick.

Hi s,

Are you saying you are ill?

I hope you get well soon.

As I read it, Greer is not against personal choices that are based on our best estimates of the future. He is against, or rather, points out the futility, of PUBLIC plans in the context of an un-knowable future. Although such plans SEEM like a good idea, in practice they are quickly forgotten. See the energy-related municipal (and state and federal) plans made in the 1970's. It's more a statement about the dynamics of collective planning than about predicting the future.

My experience on Town committees is that they are set up by the local power-that-be as fig leaves, while TPTB do their thing ("development"). Documents such as "the town plan" are required by the state, and are popular with the volunteers who spend time writing them, but are ignored in actual decisions. By "actual decisions" I mean MONEY. Talk is cheap. And ANYTHING can be painted green.

This is why I am not enthused about efforts such as "Transition Town". While well-intentioned, I don't think they are meaningful unless and until TPTB steer money accordingly. Perhaps those efforts will impact some public money decisions (or decisions allowing money-grubbing "development"), but I have yet to see that happen anywhere. If anybody has examples, let us know!

I agree with your observations.

Planning does make you feel better. Greer clearly states that.

Well, if all you'll give me is that it makes a difference with a person's motivation, I'll take it :-).

Consider that your planning is based on a narrow range of future possibilities. Given that, it's possible to plan effectively. Regardless of what kind of planning/coaching you are doing, if the basic assumptions you base those plans on change, your plans may come to naught (or worse).

Greer's comments were in regard to planning what the future would look like, not that all planning is useless. I'm planning on being significantly less prosperous than my parents are now. I don't plan on being able to retire. I plan on having to increase my level of self-sufficiency. I plan on learning to grow much more of my own food. I plan on keeping my eyes and ears open, and to be ready and willing to embrace change as it comes.

All of these things are decent plans I think. But to plan on what society will look like, how various societal crisis will play out - that's absurd, especially in a time of such massive change. Where in the hell is my flying car?

Consider that your planning is based on a narrow range of future possibilities.

Yes, that's correct. The context starts with "there will be a decreasing amount of energy available both individually and as a society. What will the impact of that be?" I don't spend time on mirrors in space, or huge amounts of liquid fuel from coal. If those assumptions are incorrect, the planning will be off. Wouldn't you agree that decreasing energy availability is a reasonable planning assumption? That shapes quite a few things.

...to plan on what society will look like, how various societal crisis will play out - that's absurd, especially in a time of such massive change.

How the crisis will play out is too difficult a picture to paint, for certain. But that's not necessary for a planning session to be valuable because the changes coming are so large. Start with the assumption that the status quo will no longer hold, then create from there.

Transportation: if you own a car, will you be able to get gas for it? Or will you rely on public transportation, a bike or a scooter to get to your job or purchase products?

Employment: do you provide a "need to have" service or a "nice to have" service? What would you do if the money stopped coming in?

Retirement: when does it make sense to stop planning for retirement?

Housing: will you be able to support the household you're in now, or will you have to join with family or friends for shelter?

and so on.

The point is that right now there are still options to shape a personal future, but that takes thinking, planning, then executing. But if people wait until events unfold beyond their control, they will wake up and realize that most of the good options are all gone.

Plan to improvise ... since nobody knows what the future will be you need more than one plan ... and plans that can be implemented very fast. Most people, including the 'talking heads', wobble through life from one crisis to the next all you have to do is be swifter than them.

For example, we don't know whether to expect inflation or deflation ... so you will need a plan to cover BOTH extremes ... the Government don't seem to have a viable plan A, let alone B.

Clearly something dramatic has occured economically worldwide (TOD readers know it is peak oil) ... if our Governments knew what they were doing we wouldn't be in the situation we find ourselves ... so make your plan on the basis that your Government is incapable of successful long term planning.

Our Governments are trying to return our economies back to 'normal' ... sadly, economically the last 200 years are anything but normal ... 'normal' doesn't exist so the Governments will fail, plan on that basis.

the Government don't seem to have a viable plan A, let alone B.

I believe you are mistaken here. We are living plan A. My guess would be that you don't view it as a plan because you disagree with it.

Huh?

What we are living is NOT what the Government planned and almost never is - I don't agree with it or disagree with it, it's just a fact of life ... any plans you might consider for the unpredictable future should take real world facts and provable data into consideration.

The Government has no more idea of how the future will pan out than you or I, they make the 'plan' up as they go along, reacting to fractal changing circumstances, there is no obvious plan B.

I think it is rather dangerous/naive to think that those in positions of power have no idea what they are doing. Whether you think this because you think they are "just like the rest of us" or because you just happen to disagree with what they are doing, I would argue that you are doing more to disempower yourself than you are "understanding" what those in power do.

In one sense, you are correct, the Government did not plan to have a massive and deep global recession. But that's a very narrow vision. Those with power have been using the apparatus of our government and other governments around the world to implement a specific design for a global economy. What we got may not be precisely what any one of them envisioned, but this is more a result of the ongoing power plays amongst them than it is the failure of a particular plan to be manifested. But back to the recession. If the current economic situation is a result of the type of global economy that those in power have implemented (and I believe its fairly obvious that is the case), than whether they would admit it or not, they planned this recession. If you know the lingo of project management, they accepted the risk of recession and when it was realized have pursued a mitigation strategy.

As for not knowing the future, this is obviously a matter of degree. Will the sun rise tomorrow? You can count on it. Will I awake in the morning? Almost as assuredly as I am going to bed healthy and secure. Will I drink coffee after arising? Do almost every day, why should tomorrow be different. Now, push those projections out a year and they become progressively less certain (perhaps I will have given up caffeine). Out ten years and even more so (perhaps I will become increasingly ill). But the differing levels of certainty don't mean that a plan is simply reactions to changes. When I go to the supermarket this weekend, I plan to buy coffee. That's a pretty good bet because I'm a coffee drinker. And that's not made up as I go along.

Regarding an obvious plan B - in our form of governance there is no value to a plan B on any grand scale. There are all sorts of smaller scale plan B's - like buying equity in banks rather than the plan A of buying up toxic assets. But on the scale of a design for a society, if your Plan A begins to fail, you won't have a chance to implement Plan B, you'll find yourself voted out of office (with the tacit consent of the real powers who are no longer bank rolling your political aspirations).

Hi Shaman,

re: "...they accepted the risk of recession and when it was realized have pursued a mitigation strategy."

Exactly so.

Many examples of people warning of risks of different kinds, take AIG's pollution record.

Or the "corporatizing" of water supplies around the world.

It seems to me to be an issue of "those with power", as you say, and the inability of "power" to listen. Or perhaps, we should say, to have any countervailing power. (To see the wisdom of some kind of balance and process.)

Although it seems to me, also, the current strategy is not really best described as "mitigation," since it seems not to really address the fundamentals to any real degree. More like, more of the same...

Plan to improvise

Yes. I think Greer's post made little sense, even if one takes a narrow view of "planning". A large part of planning is analyzing the context, and if the context is uncertain, plans should take that into consideration. I don't think anyone knows how this energy descent is going to go, but good planning would explore many options and even recognize that the plans won't get large chunks right.

It's hard to imagine how a plan that increased resiliency could be all wrong. Maybe for lack of that last little bit we fail to reach the technological singularity and miss fusion. Or the psychological singularity and fail to evolve beyond energy into spirit beings.

Plans might highlight the need to jump paradigms - rather than invest in electric cars, go directly to mass transit, for example - because resources won't support certain levels of infrastructure.

Not planning, I don't know, did someone slip something into Greer's well water?

cfm in Gray, ME

There are many win-win actions we can take, and most of them require some mid-range to long-range planning.

For example, California tightened building energy codes starting 20 years ago and continuing today. As a consequence, California buildings use 30-50% less energy than buildings in comparable climate zones in other states. Since they did not "forget planning", California has reaped and will reap significant economic and environmental advantages which would never have occurred via the "free-market" without planning.

Boulder, where I live, started a Transportation Master Plan about 20 years ago (I helped). As a result of that plan, Boulder has well-designed and nearly complete bicycle system. About 12% of Boulder residents travel by bike everyday. Absent planning, with only the typical car-clogged boulevards of unplanned sprawl, the percentage of residents enjoying healthful and economical bike travel would be much lower.

Similarly, Boulder's Community Transit system, carefully planned and designed, carries around 5X as many passengers as the previous ad-hoc system. Over 60% of employees in downtown Boulder do not arrive by single-occupant vehicle, as compared to 5-10% non SOV mode share in unplanned or poorly planned communities.

The list of successful planning is way to long too list. In times of uncertainty, failure to plan is basically panic. The real issue is the appropriate time scale for plans and I agree that trying to predict the distant future and plan for it is impossible. But there are so many short and medium term plans that can help individuals and communities plan for the future.

Even in Mumbai, those people who planned when and where to run, were much more likely to survive (and even be interviewed as the Brit who slipped away at the base of the stairs was). Those who panicked and failed to plan, even for the short-term, were much more likely to be victims.

Similary, individuals and communities that fail to plan for energy and climate transitions are much more likely to be victims.

Don't forget Boulder's open space plan. Without it, Boulder would be just a continuation of Denver like every place else on the front range. Boulder is one of the cities of any size where you can actually tell where it begins and ends.

Unfortunately California and Boulder both started to implement changes 20 years ago. We don't have 20 year left to do what they did. Not only is time short, but we will be forced to make changes with declining amounts of oil and gas along with a horrendous economy.

Unfortunately California and Boulder both started to implement changes 20 years ago. We don't have 20 year left to do what they did. Not only is time short, but we will be forced to make changes with declining amounts of oil and gas along with a horrendous economy.

True, and it only underlies the point that the effective planning depends on an appropriate time frame. Communities that did not build bike facilities 20 years ago can still set up municipal car-pooling websites, relax zoning restrictions on mixed-use and building occupancy, modify ordinances to require safe automobile behavior around ped snd bikes (like Boulder County's 3 foot law,etc.), establish community gardens on vacant land, and take many other more short-term actions with zero/near-zero cost and immediate impact.

But those communities and individuals that say "forget planning" will not even make the simple, obvious short-term plans, let alone planning for the medium and long-term future.

I suggest all TODers look carefully at the narrow-gauge railbed in the webphotos in my other DB posting today, then consider Leanan's DB toplink yesterday on asphalt being $100 grand/mile.

As discussed in prior postings: the guts of a small ICE-engine vehicle, or even better, the guts of a Prius could easily locomote a long narrow-gauge train. Using the steel from the top 35 floors of a forty story skyscraper: I bet you could directly bolt much of this structural steel to a sidewalk to quickly and CHEAPLY provide many miles of suburban track. No building of elevated stations is required either due to the intrinsic human-scale of these minitrains; easy to step in/out. A small, sliding ramp extending from a flatcar would work for someone in a wheelchair.

In areas of heavy snow: would you rather hand-shovel clear a narrow-gauge gap, or an asphalt street many car lanes wide? I bet if a study was undertaken: very rarely does a street actually need huge construction equip. or big dump trucks. If they do: it is when they are repaving the damn asphalt. My feeble two cents.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

Hi Leanan,

1) Planning can save lives. Rehearsing something physically, for example. Some interesting ideas in Amanda Ripley's book.

http://www.amandaripley.com/

http://www.ashland.or.us/Page.asp?NavID=541

Also, I wonder:

2) If the US developed an energy policy that incorporated "peak oil", what would it look like in your view?

An example of planning: ag policy - more money into transition to organic (less FF input on the fertilizer side of it), education for ag careers, supporting organic and sustainable ag on a world basis. As opposed to current policies. Just as an example. Would this not count as something of a "plan"?

Wha??

The last gasp rally in oil - perhaps the last 20% was due to some hedge fund and asset management players covering or so I've heard. Yes, speculation played A role in the last stages of the rally.

It was far more than that. It would be hard to say exactly how much until we see how far it falls. That will obviously be farther than the "correct" value but should give us some idea.

If the current prices are the bottom (and I don't see a reason to think that they are), then we can say pretty comfortably that when oil hit $80 and the industry said that it was speculation... that fundamentals didn't justify anything above $60/bbl... they knew what they were talking about.

on the downside the story is NOT about oil but something greater, that is impacting all financial assets - currencies, corn, cotton, cocoa, oil, stocks, etc.

There's a matter of degree that I think you're missing. If you take financials out of the mix, stocks simply aren't in the same ballpark as comodities.

It's like going up a mountain with the aid of an elephant and being chased down by a giant herd of mastodons. The situations were different.

But think about how that sounds. How is it different from every other bubble where the "true believers" couldn't accept that it was a bubble even after it fell apart? It's just a coincidence that the chart looks exactly like a speculative bubble popping? It's speculative on the way down but we won't accept that it was speculative on the way UP?

To sit here and say - 'see oil was in a bubble' doesn't help anyone.

I can't see how that's true. The assumption that is wasn't a bubble permeated other decisions/assumptions.

Look - I don't mean to be combative, but we are speaking past eachother. I was one of the 'peak oilers' who said oil was likely to plummet in price, and that we would likely never see more than $200 a barrel due to demand issues. I even called the exact date of peak in price on FT Alphaville...:-)

The bigger points are twofold

1)Futures markets (and therefore prices), due to being small in comparison to fiat currency and credit (leverage) will continue to give oscillating signals necessary for proper long term investment in conventional public markets.

2)Demand is every bit as important as supply with respect to valuing the marginal short term barrel. The difference being that eventually, when demand has sufficiently returned, supply is going to be even more constrained than would have been the case had we not had the financial meltdown (btw your comment about removing financials from the mix is incorrect - the correlations would still be over 90%). The other salient difference being that humans reproduce on human time scales and oil does not.

Peak oil has always been about oil supply not being able to keep up with oil demand. Just like everything else though, we will 'borrow' from future to make today 'seem' better. Demand has dropped far more than supply for now, which means one day supply will fall much further than demand. If you are suggesting that the Peak Oil community, (broadly defined, including Simmons and Pickens on CNBC), contributed to prices going higher than they otherwise might have gone, I don't disagree. But the seeds for the financial crisis causing the selloff were laid before there was much of a peak oil community at all outside of Colin Campbell, Jay Hanson, Richard Duncan, etc. The seeds were laid when Glass-Steagal was repealed, investment banks were allowed to lever up 30x, no-doc loans were approved, FNM, FHLMC eased lending standards, record fed easing from 2000-2002 flushed system with tens of trillions of credit, etc.

Bottom line - Peak Oil is real but was trumped by the credit crisis, which has now made it 'realer'. It just doesn't seem that way right now.

*And decisions made under the assumption it wasn't a bubble, by and large would have been good decisions (other than low energy gain, high externality energy investments like corn ethanol)

**There is a CHANCE that the way it has unfolded may be the best of both worlds. Slowing consumption gives leadership more time to choose better social ends than conspicuous consumption and turning resources into dopamine and garbage (on average that is - there are quite a few products that produce longer term happiness with low externalities). We conceivably could now allocate resources towards renewable infrastructure and have less of a public outcry than we would have withouth the financial crisis - more jobs, secure energy future, etc.

Bottom line - Peak Oil is real but was trumped by the credit crisis ...

Well and truly validated by entering 'peak oil' and 'credit crisis' in Google Trends:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22peak+oil%22%2C+%22credit+crisis%22

Nice find!
But that only validates that the perception of credit crisis trumping peak oil is well and truly valid....;-)

Hello Nate,

Interesting that the future Cascadia cities of Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver are the leaders in Peak Outreach... hope they are getting ready early if 100 million from the Southwest and Mexico start heading their direction...

Yo toto - We already got the plans to blow Siskiyou Summit pass, all the bridges on the Columbia river, and the three major mountain passes. Sentinels posted ASAP.

oops! did I type that out loud?

Never mind.............

Can you hold off a bit until I get there...? ;-)

Are you really planning on moving to the Pacific Northwest? That would be cool.

Thanks, I'm looking into it. I'll be up your way from December 16 through the 21st with two others. We are doing a tour of the towns and farmland.

Is it the consensus that there's no hope in any warm place?

Hello Aniya,

IMO, I don't think there is any clear consensus on a warm or cold area for long term survival as they both have pluses and minuses if minimal infrastructure still functions, but it seems pretty clear to me that if anyone is somehow caught in the 'absolute worst case situation' of being in an area of no water & lethal heat: you only have a few days, possibly a few hours, to get to an area where potable water can save your life.

Generally, in a colder area, loss of immediately handy water is not that dire as snow, rain, ice, and creek water is usually nearby. I don't know if you have ever experienced our summer blast furnace and how there is no surface water for miles and miles and miles.

Unfortunately, many illegals from Mexico have found this out the most painful way imaginable when their water ran out long before their hiking mileage. Waterboarding torture is a piece of cake compared to heat exhaustion, heat stroke, and lethal dehydration.

My interest in Oregon is: good topsoil, adequate water even after projected impacts of climate change (might even get wetter) and less population density. Also, several of the towns have a university campus. Not all campuses will survive but even if the institution disappears perhaps all the professors won't.

Hello Souperman2,

Just perfect your recipe w/curry for me. By the time I finally walk there on my 6'5" long-pig frame: I may be so damn tired, cold, and exhausted that I will heartily welcome the long, hot soak you will graciously offer me in one of your giant soup kettles, while your workers are adding potatoes and carrots...

"start heading in their direction?"

That migration has already begun - one reason that the Willamette Valley is one of the few places in the country where real estate prices have not collapsed.

And I can't put my finger on it right now, but one of those curious little tid bits I picked up would suggest that it won't just be people from the Southwest - While Florida continues to grow as the result of net inmigration, the extent of the outmigration has picked up dramatically this decade and the second most common destination after North Carolina is... Oregon.

Although I live in California I will say a lot of it was out migration of people from California moving to a number of surrounding state and for some reason Texas. A lot of people took there bubble winnings and bought McMansions in Oregon, Arizona, Texas and spec houses all over the place. In many cases they kept the California house and used HELOC money.

Lost of variation on the them with only a smaller number smart enough to pay cash for the new house using the price differential. The point is a lot of these people are not peak oil aware just various types of Real Estate speculators.
I think you will find that a lot of them won't stay either because their Real Estate empire crumbles or they lose there job or don't like the weather etc etc. And also a lot of the homes are just empty or being rented. I live in Irvine CA and work in SF so I know all the variants of the Cali Real Estate speculator personally.

I suspect you will find soon that the PNW is no more immune from these vultures ruining your Real Estate values then Arizona. Certainly there are a number of real bona fide people worried about the future I'm one of them planning to head to Oregon for this reason however I suspect we are a lot smaller group then the Cali specuvester crowd. Look at Bend Oregon on of the hot spot for specuvesters its crashing.

Bottom line is Willamette probably will crash at least back to the traditional 3x income level.

The only thing I don't like about it is most of these idiots bought huge McMansions on small lots just like they have in Cali.

Pretty good article on this crowd.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17791351/

Bush understands peak oil perfectly, and so does Obama. The problem is Bush was incapable and unwilling to initiate an energy policy based on peak oil. (Well, there is that little war in Iraq.)

Obama's challenge is to make real progress in dealing with peak oil. Hopefully by not fighting additional wars to control what is left of oil. Remember the rhetoric was building a few months ago about having to deal with Iran next.

Obama will need both political support and the majority of popular support to begin an appropriate energy policy. The odds of getting both in the next few years, in my opinion, are slim. That troubles me because we are running out of time.

Obama is more intelligent than Bush, still, because of political realities and popular opinion it is likely some of his proposals will be out of sync with what we know is needed. My sense is if anyone can pull it off it is Obama. Thank God McCain/Palin are not going to be in charge. It is impossible to imagine what would happen if McCain had to resign due to bad health or worse.

Obama is a good politician. He's got a real shot at pulling off something pretty intelligent.

I disagree.

The election of Obama demonstrates politics in America are just as bankrupt as business in America.

Hi Priority

How do you get it that Obama really understand "peak oil"? I mean, what are the indications? Or, do you know this directly?

Do you have "insider information"?

Last I heard, his higher level staff didn't get it at all.

Hearing that Romer, of NBER, is one of Obama's financial advisors left me with a sinking feeling in my gut. Whether Obama understands energy and resources or not, he's not going to play it straight and he's not going to level with the American people. Starting from "Step 1", we are not in this together. Everyone was counting on Obama lying during the campaign - because he had to do that to get elected - and it's starting to look like he did. People thought he'd break his campaign promises and be better, but it's looking like he's going to break them and be much worse. That surprises even me.

A government that is unwilling and unable to recognize and provide for the needs of its people is illegitimate. The outcome is corruption, a hollow-state and the stuff of which Robb writes at Global Guerrillas. Even a fascist state requires legitimacy and it's starting to look to me like this US nation won't even be able to muster that level of legitimacy - we will have been so plundered by our misleaders and the cancer economy.

cfm in Gray, ME

Then it should be stated loud and clear that the "great oil bubble" of 2001-08 was exactly what it was - a bubble fueled by loose monetary policy. It was not an expression of the "collective wisdom" of markets factoring in oil scarcity 20 years down the road. IMO long term developments like PO had just a peripheral relationship with the oil bubble, more specifically the absence of enough spare capacity prevented the possibility of producers flooding the market and breaking the speculative run. The price heights of summer 08 were just as much a "proof of PO" as much the current price drop is disproving it.

All of this does not mean that PO is not real, or it won't be a problem some time down the road. It just means that relying on markets dominated by speculators to give the appropriate price signal is just like watching the arrow for the seconds only, in order to figure out what time is it.

There is a pretty high negative correlation between the US dollar strength and the price of oil. There are multiple bubbles and anti-bubbles affecting prices-not everyone agrees that the USA dollar is destined to remain this strong despite the fiscal and trade mess.

Sure, the US dollar weakness was a contributing factor, but it was too on its side caused by the loose monetary policy. This fact has been known for more than a century now - that cheap money is creating asset bubbles and long term financial instability. It beats the hell out of me why the FED allowed it for so long, essentially creating the current mess we are in.

Here's a little historical irony: It was in the summer of 2005 that oil crossed the nominal threshold of $50 for the first time EVER. At the time, this was an alarming development to many; now, oil below $50 is considered to be unbelievably low. This contrast in attitudes alone indicates that we have entered an entirely new era.

This contrast in attitudes alone indicates that we have entered an entirely new era.

Must it?

Or is it just the 70s and early 80s all over again?

It is not, for the following reason: In the 70s and 80s, there was enough supply slack in the oil reserve base to fuel sustained economic growth over the course of a quarter century. Now, IMO, there is no longer enough supply slack to fuel any more than a very short-term incipient recovery that will be quickly nipped in the bud by once-more skyrocketing prices.

And phenomena like the net export crisis, the closing down of high-cost projects, continued demand growth (albeit more modest) in East Asia, etc., imply there is a decent likelihood that prices could skyrocket again even BEFORE an incipient economic recovery ever gets off the ground.

It is not, for the following reason: In the 70s and 80s, there was enough supply slack in the oil reserve base to fuel sustained economic growth over the course of a quarter century.

That's really begging the question. In trying to determine whether it was a bubble on the way up AND down or peak oil driving prices up and market forces artificially driving them down... you can't start by assuming that peak oil has in fact arrived.

2005 was the first time that oil prices averaged more than $50 per barrel for a year. Of course, the average price in 2008 will be around $100. On an annual basis, oil prices in 2008 will be up about 20%/year since the $14 average price in 1998. On a monthly basis, at $50 per barrel, oil prices are up at about 13%/year.

In any case, the EIA data show world annual C+C production of 73.7 mbpd in 2005. So far in 2008, through August, they show an average rate of 74.1 mbpd, subject to revision. Consider the total amount of money spent by the oil industry worldwide that was necessary to produce what so far appears to be about a one-half of one percent increase in production. And on a cumulative shortfall basis, the industry has not been able to make up for the cumulative shortfall between what we would have produced at the 5/05 rate and what we actually produced. Taking the 2008 data at face value, the shortfall has increased slightly in 2008.

And BTW, the key reason to emphasize cumulative production is that this what the HL (Hubbert Linearization) method really gives us--an estimate of the area under a production rate versus time curve. And based on the HL models, the world in 2005 was at about the same stage of depletion at which the US Lower 48 started declining in the Seventies and Saudi Arabia was at about the same stage of depletion at which the prior swing producer, Texas, started declining. The world data are noted above, and notwithstanding a year over year increase in production Saudi Arabia is almost certainly going show three straight years of lower annual production, relative to 2005, at about the same stage of depletion at which Texas started declining--with a very large, around 700,000 bpd, decline in net exports relative to 2005.

Talk about expensive oil--how much has it cost to maintain basically flat crude oil production?

Of course, what really matters to producers and consumers is the monthly average and annual average price of oil--in the same way that what really matters on your income tax return is your annual income. Consider a salesman who makes a killing in July--getting a $100,000 commission, but $10,000 per month in the other 11 months. What matters more, the monthly peak of $100,000 per month or the annual income of $210,000?

We are of course also seeing a big drop in price on a monthly basis, and I am an surprised as most other Peak Oilers, but it's possible that the price decline in the second half of 2008 may not even show up on an annual basis--if the average price of oil in 2009 is above the average 2008 price.

But as you noted, none of this matters to the infinite growth crowd. Their world view is that we can have an infinite rate of increase in our consumption of a finite fossil fuel resource base.

I don't think too many people (Peter Schiff and a few apart) realized what a big house of cards the global economy was and how much waste was built into it. High oil prices I think had a role in bringing that house of cards down and we probably are not going to see $150 oil for the next 2-3 years given that demand is now falling rapidly.

My own thinking is that any attempt by the global economy to recover significantly is going to drive oil prices up and bringing back growth to the ground. Each such cycle will see higher average prices of crude till depletion reaches such a stage that the cycles get shorter and shorter and prices spiking and falling.

High volatility is worse than high prices per se. Investments are made when companies believe they can predict the future to some degree. If I am just not sure what will happen in 6 mths/1 year/2 years, then paralysis sets in.

I think we are in for a very rough time.

Srivathsa

The volatility argument is huge and seems to be downplayed. There is no way to operate enterprises at the global scale with the type of volatility in prices of inputs and outputs that is currently being seen. Either the volatility must reduce very quickly or many of these dinosaurs will die out. I would guess that they will be propped up as long as they can be by government funds, but the trend - as you mention - should be increasing price volatility with both increasing frequency and probably amplitude.

Smaller enterprises that are more maneuverable may be able to survive more effectively, but many of those will be destroyed by the volatility as well. The problem may eventually be one not so much of price, but reliability of supply. The only ones that will have ample protection will be those producing something with a relatively fixed input cost - like zero off farm input agriculture.

Otherwise times are going to be very, very tough indeed for any enterprise to stay in business. It will literally shake the economy to the ground a little bit at a time.

Agreed, these oil prices are a future disaster. Personally, I've tended to take a rather dim view of the most extreme doomers, but I'll admit I've grown gloomy myself these past two months. An economic system which determines that oil in 2008 is worth only $48 / bbl is clearly broken, and that's really bad news for the future. The signals being sent to oil's consumers is obviously entirely wrong, and the decisions they're making based on it are locked in for the liftimes of some very long-lived "assets" (ha ha). Reading the Rogof paper on the history of government debt defaults is very depressing. http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/rogoff/files/This_Time_Is_Diffe...

I've often wondered if there isn't a deliberate plan in the markets to make mutual funds much slower to react to market upsets than one would expect. If one were to grant the hypothetical existence of some formless TPTB insiders, it would make so much sense to do that. eg. last out in a crash looses most, etc. etc.

Welcome to the downward spiral! Oil prices fall as a result of a weakened economy. When the economy begins to recover, prices return to previous highs, sending the economy back into recession.

It matters not whether this particular recession was the result of high energy prices or not (I tend to think so), it seems fairly clear that we are now in that cycle.

The only questions will be: 1) from the perspective of the growth worshipers, will the next "expansion" achieve the same level of economic activity as the previous, and 2) from everyone's perspective, how many of these cycles do we need to go through before we "get it" and start to do something about it?

When the economy begins to recover, prices return to previous highs, sending the economy back into recession.

Well, oil prices have yet to send the economy into recession.

Let's see. The recession started a year ago right about the time of peak price of oil per barrel. I can see how that caused demand destruction several months later.

This tells me that high priced liquid energy supplies have a significant impact on our economy, that lower costs now inhibit needed replacement, and depletion while slowed still continues.

Thanks to TOD I've been paying attention. Network talking heads have not.