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82 comments on DrumBeat: December 25, 2008

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dadco on December 25, 2008 - 10:40am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top

Merry Christmas TOD people,

here's what I found under my mental tree this AM:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/24/shopping-mall-hugo-chavez-ve...

my HOPE for US is to have some similarly de/constructive outrage appear here ...... and that the human energy released can get busy and bring us an electric train for under next year's tree.

sydney

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ransu on December 25, 2008 - 5:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"..and we're going to expropriate that and turn it into a hospital - I don't know - a school, a university."

In the current situation reactionary solutions by populist leaders are just as devastating regardless which colored hat they wear. As much as one is drawn to Hugo Chavez's charm, revolutionary speeches and anti-bush-stance, the guy is just a naive populist leader, mad with his own position.

If you doubt this, watch this: PBS Frontline The Hugo Chavez Show. Ones you see that documentary, you cannot really claim that he hasn't gone mad.

But the real question is, is there any hope for us from our 'leadership' whether it be populated by peak oil people or Hubbert himself, if the situation has gotten so bad already, that in order to keep peace and order, one has to peddle cheap populist solutions to the masses?

In Chavez country one could potentially play the poor-working-class-against-the-rich angle to the benefit of sustainable policies, such as banning shopping malls or electrifying the railway network. But in the US the majority population belong to the middle class who have no romantic notions of socialism. All they want is their fair share of the American Dream - which is impossible to dress up into a sustainable program: reduction of energy and material use, consumption etc.

In fact in the coming years, with ever deepening crisis upon crisis we are going to see more of these childish gestures, more quick fixes, more helicopters... The worse it gets the shorter is the thinking behind what we do.

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davebygolly on December 25, 2008 - 11:53pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thanks for the link, and I'll definitely watch some of it. But based on what I know already, Chavez has some things to his credit: he has very effectively promoted Latin unity against domination by the gorilla to the north, he has improved health and education for the poor in Venezuela, and he has won several elections legitimately (according to several different monitoring bodies) -- unlike some here. His idea of giving discount oil to poor people here in the US was a master stroke. Does he sometimes huff and puff, and then back down? Yep. And some other stupid stuff. And there are plenty of other problems.

But one of the other things I like about him is that he admits screwing up sometimes.

One of the things that gives me hope is the emergence of several populist gov'ts in LA, warts and all. At least they are trying to do something for the people. And their efforts are not at all appreciated by the TPTB here. Just on that fundamental level I support them. I can't see why anyone that doesn't identify with TPTB here wouldn't have some sympathy for them.

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jteehan on December 26, 2008 - 12:40am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Well said.

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ransu on December 26, 2008 - 4:27am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I too had sympathy and good things to say of people like Chavez (and of Castro). People who dared to 'oppose to the TPTB'. Very admirable indeed.

But he also runs a political machine, effective at silencing dissent among his own ranks, at oppression - and if needed, murder. The aim of his policies and projects is to maintain his power, at any cost.

What is this cognitive dissonance which allows murderers to gain appreciation in our eyes - because they are 'less-murderers' than the politically correct foes of our time?

"This guy must be a great hero cause he challenges the 'Bullies of the North'. He gives to the poor."

Yet we know that he is just another dictator, and his handouts are a power available to any dictator - they tell nothing of his character or intentions.

In this age of evils we need heros - and this guy is obviously a hero.

We must rationalize this by comparative thinking - he is for health, education, latin unity, whatever. "So he did some 'stupid stuff' - and everyone has 'problems', so what, give him some slack.."

Now we can ignore his blatant use of populism, his madness, because we have labeled them as 'stupid stuff' and 'problems'. Because his apparent 'goodness' undoes any criticism and doubt. And you must not criticize or doubt heros. They are untouchable.

"Chavez has some things to his credit" - perhaps his credit account is indeed positive - the debt of lives lost, blood and tears paid off in full by his charitable acts?

I too would support his policies on a 'fundamental level' - if it wasn't for the blatant and now all too apparent formula which is now being revealed in his speeches, and acts. He is full of himself, beyond criticism, madness has taken over him.

Many people still 'believe' in him, some just uninformed for now, and some, the True Believers, will never be swayed otherwise. Because he ones wore 'patch of honor' of opposing the TPTB.

- Ransu 2008

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pragma on December 26, 2008 - 5:00am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Ransu:

Excellent!!

Unfortunately, critical thinking is in short supply. Paradigms and ideologies prevail. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a short term approach.

Let us remember that the US supported and funded Usama Bin Laden, Reza Palavi (Shah of Iran) and a host of others.

Just because Chavez sh**s on Bush does not make him a saint, as some have suggested. He is, first and foremost, a politician and therefore highly suspect. An enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend. Political expediency be damned!!

All too often, if someone opposes TPTB, that is just a mechanism to become TPTWB, The Powers That Will Be.

Just because a person is rude (i.e. undiplomatic) does mean that they are telling the truth anymore than someone that is polite is lying.

IMHO they are all whores, but I would love to be proven wrong.

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davebygolly on December 26, 2008 - 5:58am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The problem here is in the details. Your criticisms are vague and personal -- his accomplishments are specific. I have no problem with specific criticisms of Chavez.

But once those specific criticisms are made one also has to total the whole thing up. Would Venezuela or LA be better off if he were overthrown? TPTB in the US would like to do just that -- they will support anyone wanting to do that, give them money. And will Venezuela then be better off with the replacement? I don't think so. It has never worked out that way. This applies to Castro and all the other LA populists. Each of them has faults. But taken as a whole, would LA be better off if they weren't there? It would be better, easier for the US elite if they weren't. Would it be better for LA and those countries if they weren't? Or would it only be better for the elite here?

That's the whole problem. The struggle there is not taking place in a vacuum where the outcome is of no concern to anyone but the peoples concerned. It is of immense concern to a power that has recently lost a huge amount of influence and power in LA.

This or that LA leader may make mistakes that leads to their crumbling and a set back to their liberation movement. It won't make me happy and I don't wish for it. Because we desperately need the spirit here that they have shown there or our gooses are cooked.

I would be more impressed were you to recite the crimes committed against those countries by an outside power before you cite the real and alleged mistakes or even crimes committed by their leaders.

It does, I'm afraid, come down to: which side are you on, boys? Unfortunately, there is no third side, not for us here anyway.

What current leaders DO impress you favorably? I see none that I prefer to the leaders that are emerging in LA. But, to tell the truth, I suspect that some of the Islamic leaders are not quite the devils they're made out to be either and are much superior to the Islamic devils "we" have embraced. But that's another subject altogether -- or is it?

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ransu on December 26, 2008 - 7:05am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Ah!

'Vague' and 'personal' - labels - insinuating that the facts are untrue. A very persuasive form of denial. As I said, watch that documentary and then come here to tell me that.

As for his accomplishments, as I have pointed out, they do not justify anything. However many virtues you pile upon him, he is still a dictator and a murderer.

I am not here to impress you (I get called a lefty much more than you, and don't particularly like the label of its association). But I do have a problem with keeping accountancy of blood, of comparing evil with evil, of rationalizing oppression, suffering and death.

Would Iran be worse off with Shah still in power? Perhaps. And Iraq with Saddam? Many justified and still do the brutalities of Mugabe's regime because he challenged the colonial powers and white land owners. Freedom for Africa! Very politically correct at the time. Great cognitive dissonance for todays lefties. I am not the sycophant of Iran's current regime because the previous one propped up by the US was 'worse' - or celebrate Bush for removing Saddam, with only a few 'minor problems' left behind to deal with.

The basis of hero myths is duality. The contrast of opposites. In order to paint 'TPTB' as black as possible, one has to whitewash clean the 'other side'. There is no third side, we are told. "You are either with us or against us".

Sorry I don't play that way. A plague on both your houses!

But there is no arguing with a True Believer. Just like Chomsky, perhaps the most prolific critic of the U.S., gets rap from Burma- and Israel-activists for even hinting of the suffering by Timor or of Palestinians, the Chavez myth is fast becoming yet another one of these dogmas.

On a more practical and 'specific' note, we most definitely do not need the "spirit they have shown there". The 'spirit' they have there is well a oiled party machine, resistant to criticism, insight and change, and always ready to deny and ignore anything bad their great leader has done, ready to silence any dissent among their own ranks, even with violence. What is then left of the spirit is a reactionary, short sighted, naive, childish grab for a feel good nice 'solutions', mandated by the great leader, and put into practice at any cost.

You can liberate us from the TPTB all you want, but I won't be liberated of my right to think. Thank you very much..

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dadco on December 26, 2008 - 9:16am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thanks for the Great Theory Lesson.

Just one or 2 more Qs.: When is a Documentary a Propaganda Piece.

Was Riefenstahl's 36 Olympics "Documentary" Fact? Probably. Was it's perception dependent on the viewer's predispositions and prejudices? Seems as though.

If I see the world as a place to make MY Investments, I'll not be primarily concerned for the needs of the "Masses";I'll probably be annoyed by any "purveyors" of "cheap populist solutions" for their problems.

But you do seem to accept they have problems.

I Accept that many of their problems have been caused in part by the longstanding colonialist attitudes of Patria Mia, USA.

Rainsu gets it right when he says "But in the US the majority population belong to the middle class who have no romantic notions of socialism. All they want is their fair share of the American Dream. "

And Kunstler gets it right when he points out that said Am. Dream is basically perpetual BAU and Something for Nothing. Motor on.

Happy Black Friday. Maybe some great BUYS in the mall near you.

Here's Hope for Electric Trains.

sydney

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ransu on December 26, 2008 - 10:57am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

America! Yes, the answer to everything. With searing logic he undoes everything one has learnt and thought. All problems everywhere caused by America (its like the UFO's really, they are responsibly for world government and technology after all...)

Ironically in that documentary (which I may presume you still haven't watched) Chavez himself uses the very same level of higher reason to scorch and condemn his own supporters:

" ...this guy is criticizing the great anti-TPTB leader of Venezuela. He must be an American collaborator, a spy, with evil Investments and skulduggery in mind. In fact he must be in Business with the dark lord himself: Beelzebub (or was it Bush)"

.. and any Evidence to the contrary must be works of Propanganda - by Riefenstahl of all people? herself (raised from the dead) - or perhaps even beyond her abilities - since who could have altered all those reels, hundreds of hours of Alo Presidente on YouTube for all to see (all altered obviously to make the great leader SEEM like an out of control ego maniac).

It is I, the Criticiser of Great Heros, who is holding back the Electric Trains. How I gloat over the masses, who without their own concent are forced to shop the malls of BAU.

Yes, the picture is complete. Thou art a True Believer. Blessed may you venture into the magic pixieland.

<<>/sarcanol<>>

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Engineer-Poet on December 27, 2008 - 12:41am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

<clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap>

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elwoodelmore on December 26, 2008 - 7:17am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"...one has to peddle cheap populist solutions to the masses? "

i am puzzled by your statement. has any politician since the advent of tv gotten elected otherwise ?

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82 comments on DrumBeat: December 25, 2008

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