Thanks Steve! You have some unique insights!

It seems like the high cost inventory problem, and resulting high prices for the consumer, may be affecting other things besides fertilizer. For example, food prices at the grocery store don't seem to be dropping all that much. Also, people are reluctant to sell their homes at today's lower prices, because they bought them for higher prices, and feel that that somehow they are worth that much. Do you see these as issues?

The legacy high prices - houses, cars, hardware, food, etc - they are absolutely an issue.

Taking place is a tremedous drop in individual and collective purchasing power. Purchasing power is declining to 'cash value' of productive labor. The scary issue is whether it is 'American productive labor' which is bad enough ... or 'Chinese productive labor'. The equilibrium value of productive labor has no bottom right now ...

At some point I need to explain economic dimensions and the multiple characteristics (personalities?) of money.

There is an increasing disconnect between yesterdays' debt- inflated high prices and tomorrow's purchasing power. Something has to give. Prices will decline. Trade volumes and ranges will be reduced. There will be defaults and bankruptcies. There are structural overcapacities and these must be brought into alignment with utilization (demand), which is continuing to decline. A lot of this is beyond understanding, even beyond the desire to understand. People have been living 'inflation' for their entire lives, their parents' lives. There is no experience, no well- developed instinctive grasp of deflation. Solving the excess inventory of real estate for instance will require demolishing millions of houses. Bringing supply and demand into equilibrium is a pitiless process.

What you've noticed at the grocery store and on the street simply amplifies the deflationary forces. The food issue is an aggravation in the US, but in many countries unaffordable food is destabilizing. Social order collapses, not just the money train.

A lot of people are expecting (hoping) that credit creation can be re- ignited - that is the expedient solution. This is the misguided faith in the effectiveness of government. If credit creation could be enabled in a reasonable period, purchasing power would increase along with it. Higher prices would be supportable.

Unfortunately, all of these hopeful people are wrong. Hope borders on desperation; if buyers are not found for the goods at high prices, the high prices paid upstream will render the hopeful ones insolvent ... all hopelessly insolvent.

The bad loan universe keeps on growing ...

I think the discontinuity of the loan situation is hard for us all to grasp. Lending, and even increased lending makes sense as the economy as growing. Once we hit resource limits, long term debt no longer makes sense. Taking long-term debt out of the system is almost like deflating a balloon. All of the systems look and act differently. (Medium term debt also, very short term is probably not at issue).

Without long term debt, I would expect the amount of capital expenditures to drop to a fraction of what they were previously (partly because of the price drop, leading to lower cash flow, and partly because of the unavailability of debt to finance capital expenditures).

Without the ability to roll over long term debt, there will be a huge number of bankruptcies, and after the bankruptcies, a huge number of people without work. It will not be possible for big companies that go out of business to be replaced by other big companies, without long-term debt. Instead, their likely replacements are likely to be much smaller, less debt dependent local companies, or just people supporting themselves growing food or providing a service.

People talk about a U or V shaped recession, but they don't really understand how dependent our current society has been on long term debt, and the growth of long-term debt.

Gail,
"Once we hit resource limits, long term debt no longer makes sense."

Apart from a temporary shortage of natural rubber, due to a rapid increase in demand for large tires( mainly natural rubber), what resources, that cannot be substituted have reached limits?

From your other posts you seem to be saying that WHEN we reach resource limits long term economic growth will stop and therefore long term debt no longer makes sense.

In the last year economic growth has stopped except in China and a few other countries, but that doesn't mean this will be permanent because based on your argument, we have NOT reached any major resource limits, YET, so long term debt still makes sense.

When we do reach a permanent shortage of oil, the issue is; can this be replaced by other energy resources and if not will this prevent long term economic growth. I am not trying to minimize the big problems peak oil will cause, but pointing out its not a forgone conclusion that oil cannot be replaced( by other energy resources), or that conservation cannot allow declining oil use and economic growth, or that economic growth must have greater use of natural resources.

Hello Neil1947,

Your Quote: "we have NOT reached any major resource limits, YET, so long term debt still makes sense."

[Source: UN FAO] One billion, or 1/7th of World population, of the hungry and starving Overshoot would disagree with your assessment:

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/ultimate_in_unfair.htm

Recall my posting series on Ft Knox: 'fake wealth' of gold bullion stacked outside to form machine gun bunkers to protect the 'real wealth' of seeds & I-NPK hoarded inside.

EDIT: Job specialization is only possible when a food surplus exists.

'fake wealth' of gold bullion stacked outside to form machine gun bunkers to protect the 'real wealth' of seeds & I-NPK hoarded inside.

That's called 'having your priorities straight.'

totoneila,
60years ago famine was wide-spread in the Indian sub-continent and China. Food was rationed in Europe. Today because of the green revolution and declining birth rates, the US and EU pay farmers not to grow food, famine is now confined to isolated regions experiencing civil wars or failed states. Even in the US, today some people are hungry, and some people are homeless but its not because the US doesn't grow enough food, or has a housing shortage, its because of poor allocation of resources.

Its telling that your link and photo's were dated 1994.

We have already hit the wall on growth, and it is growth that is needed to pay back debt with interest.

Part of this is the lack of growth in world oil supply. It is even worse than this in the US. Our total per capital energy use peaked back in 2000:

There are other limitations as well. Fresh water is in increasingly short supply as well.

Because of reaching these limits, we are now not growing fast enough to pay back debt with interest, and that is what is causing this whole credit unwind. It is clear our fossil fuel consumption will not be going up in the future, because imported fuels are becoming a bigger and bigger percentage of the total, and we are running a huge balance of payments deficit with the current level of imports. If we were making high valued goods with these fuels, we could export them and use them to pay for the fossil fuels, but we aren't. This is a graph showing the same information as the top graph, but split between US produced fuels and imports. (Nuclear energy is US produced using mostly imported fuel.)

If we should start reducing our coal use, we will really see a quick decline in total energy availability, because renewables are very small, and unable to ramp up on the scale needed to replace the coal lost. (Wind and solar are part of the "other" grouping.)

Okay, this is what we have. A two horse race.

In Lane One is a horse representing looming resource shortfalls.

In Lane Two is another horse representing an existing surplus of stuff and a lot of flat broke people who have too much stuff already.

If Gail's horse wins, we humans have big, big problems. Humans don't do shortages. We don't have to. We've never had to except here and there, for reasons of disaster, flood, earthquage, war or some other short- termed incident. When confronted with a shortage we alleviate it. We don't even have to tools to understand how shortages work. I'm not kidding. All our economics is designed to manage surpluses or to try to resurrect dead businesses after a deflation. The last time there was a long- term shortage was during the last ice age. Large areas of planet Earth were uninhabitable. The closest economic reasoning attempting to deal with shortage management is from Herman Daly. He calls for zero- economic growth. I don't know. I can't even see supply- demand working without some level of surplus ... forget about credit. I don't like Gail's horse. It's too scary.

If my horse wins, we have a prolonged depression. The structural surpluses are too persistent. 'Selling' them simply transfers them to someone else. Managing the surpluses is costly, Eventually that cost will be ruinous. Even at this future point the economic costs or potential costs of the surpluses will weigh on markets. Yes, markets. We have enough stuff to last generations. That stuff will be pressed into markets with fervent hope that it can be sold and 'consumed'. There will be credit, but no one will want it because nobody will have any money.

So ... which horse will win? I'm pulling for my horse because the silver lining of a prolonged depression would be a reduction of pressure on the resource base. Not all enterprises will be bankrupt. Some thinking will allow new ways of organizing our stuff. If Gail's horse wins, we will be in the desperate position of having to invent a new kind of social structure in an instant. I don't think this can be done, frankly.

I think the biggest problem is industrialization. It's been around for three hundred or so years and it has never lived up to any of its promises. It was supposed to employ the (then) thousands of unemployed and unskilled and provide inexpensive products so that all might have use of them. Industrialization has failed at both. It has been modified, adjusted, improved upon, re- invented, shifted in locale from England/Europe to America to China and the rest of the world and it has still failed ... and fouled the Earth in the bargain.

It's time to declare the end to the industrialization, mass production experiment. Consider Adam Smith's eighteenth century pin factory:

Smith observed that some number of specialized workers, each performing a single step in the manufacture of a pin, could make far more pins in a day than the same number of generalists, each engaged in making whole pins.

"One man draws out the wire, another straightens it ... a third cuts it, a fourth points it, a fifth grinds it on the the top for receiving the head; to make the head requires two or three distinct operations; to put it on is a peculiar business, to whiten the pins is another; it is even a trade by itself to put them into the paper."

http://books.google.com/books?id=F27TuE8ChwUC&pg=PA13&dq=wealth+of+natio...

Adam Smith was a man of his time; so little concern did he have for the conditions of the workers that this is given no mention. It was here where that one man would labor at his task in stupifying monotony for ten or twelve hours a day, sixty or more hours a week, for as long as he could endure the work or the abuse of his master, that he could not change his task, that he could be discharged for any or no reason and be replaced by another, even a child, that if he was injured he would be turned out to starve or survive by any means if he could.

Also consider that the making of pins prior was the first task of silversmiths' apprentices. That a lively apprentice would soon learn other arts and some would become master silversmiths. A constant influx of apprentices meant a constant flow of pins. The pins made by silversmiths were heirlooms and carefully kept, not junk swept into cracks in the floors to skewer some person's foot.

Now, we have dull and infinite numbers of cheap goods, that depress our markets ... as they did exactly the same in Adam Smith's day ... and people with no skill who cannot accomplish anything. There are no apprentices and no masters, either.

There is a shortage ... of interesting and useful things for all the people to do.

The opportunity is coming to cast off the machines and abandon mass production. Returning to an artisanal system will take time but the production of goods by hand will give our markets less quantity and better quality. There will be pride in accomplishment. Art will increase overall. Our useful skills - doctoring, science, math, economics will continue, the useless skills will disappear; marketing, advertising, money management. More skill in the workforce will translate into more wealth in the pockets of the skilled. This and the end of manufacturing surpluses will end the money market deflation.

I don't put this as 'the' answer but is is a possible approach. Keep in mind, helicopters and Ferraris are made by artisan methods. It's the sweatshops and industrial meat 'factories' we need to get rid of.

Otherwise, Gail's horse will win.

We don't even have to tools to understand how shortages work. I'm not kidding. All our economics is designed to manage surpluses or to try to resurrect dead businesses after a deflation. The last time there was a long- term shortage was during the last ice age. Large areas of planet Earth were uninhabitable. The closest economic reasoning attempting to deal with shortage management is from Herman Daly. He calls for zero- economic growth.

I keep on running across this observation and it seems like a real group-think dead-end. As you say, economists don't deal with shortages well.

I read occasionally about the work of H. Hotteling (a Fulda native) on exhaustible resources, but that seems the extent of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotelling%27s_rule

Yes, economists don't deal with shortages. Even here on TOD virtually all of the thinking seems to depend on conventional economic understanding - one that sooner or later falls back to growth and no limits. Problem is, we are past the limit and into decline. It's not something that can be addressed at a micro-economic level - and I'd class a "stimulus" package as micro. Energy limits put all other overdrawn resources past the limit. Limits mean debts will never be paid back. All the economic models blow up. As do social contracts on which economics depends (and vs). Macro would include the Great Economy - nature.

Current thinking is in a group-think dead-end. An economy, philosophy and social contract built around limits is an entirely different paradigm - entirely alien.

cfm in Gray, ME

So between you and me and a few others, we have our own "group-think" enclave here. An alien nano-group, so to speak.

Humans don't do shortages. We don't have to. We've never had to except here and there, for reasons of disaster, flood, earthquage, war or some other short- termed incident

Talk about someone disconnected from reality by language, what planet are you from? Or maybe you figure humans have only a been around 6000 to 10000 years--in which case well maybe those 'fictitious' humans don't do shortage.

Humans do shortages very well and have for their entire time on this planet. We have competed with plenty of other creatures who also dealt with shortages regularly and survived right along side of us. If there weren't shortages life would likely have never got past the bacteria stage and I imagine Earth's biomass might be some huge exponent Jupiter's total mass by now. Come on you grow things, every life form deals with shortages.

We have just been borrowing heavily from the future of late and that could leave us recent borrowers quite short quite soon. Humans do shortages, large, complex civilizations don't (managing surplus is what they are all about). And humans do language. That is our reality.

It really comes down to what percentage of our population it takes to get our food to us. Right now it is low here and very high in Sudan. A different mix of energy, water and other inputs and we will see how it shakes out.

On your right, ladies and gentlemen, there is an apple tree out in a meadow.

When the apple tree reproduces itself, it does not make the 'replacement number' of apples; 1.7 apples per year, it produces thousands. Most of these fall and rot on the ground, some are eaten by animals and the seeds are thus spread all over the meadow. The thousands of apples are a surplus.

In order to compete for sunlight, the cherry tree produces thousands of cherries. The walnut tree hundreds of walnuts. The oak produces millions of acorns. All of these are surpluses. When the tree die, there are many more replacements for each kind of tree in the meadow. The excess trees are surplus. The dead trees are 'digested' by microbes and the 'waste' that is excreted is added to the soil of the meadow. This addition is a surplus.

The trees make extra leaves than what they need. The grasses make excess seeds and excess stolons. Insects make excess swarms.

In the ocean a pair of fish will produce thousands of offspring. Most are eaten by the surplus offspring of predator fish. A pair of chickens will produce fifty offspring in a year, a pair of robins will produce four new robins, rabbits will produce fifty new rabbits, wolves and lions will produce four or five new cubs ... all of these are surplus. A surplus is necessary because the predators - diseases and other animals - will eat a certain amount and an excess OVER that 'consumption' is required by the species - any species - to carry forward into the future.

If there is a surplus of lions vs the number of wildebeests available, the surplus of lions will be driven off by the rest. The time, effort and risk of consuming the surplus wildebeests is balanced by the surplus nourishment each wildebeets constains. This 'supply - demand' process is a form of natural market. Our markets are mimics of this natural surplus management system.

The sunlight striking the earth is a surplus. This is captured by plants that die and decompose at the bottoms of seas. This then becomes coal or oil; it is surplus ... captured surplus sunlight.

In the meadow twenty thousand years ago there were some maize plants. A band of humans stopped and ate some of the maize. When they had eaten their fill, they moved on. In the meadow there were many other maize plants the humans did not see, hidden by the other plants and trees. Because they were not seen does mean the did not exist. The following year the humans returned and ate more maize; the surplus created by preceding years' 'hidden' maize plants as well as those germinated and grown from seeds held in human waste. Because of the diversity of the meadow; the trees and the other plants ... all producing surpluses themelves ... the surplus of maize was concealed.

Because nature has concealed surpluses for tens of millions of years - and is good at it - and humans are not quite so good at seeing them means these surpluses tend to hide in plain sight.

At some point, a band of humans cut down all the trees and tore up the 'weeds' and planted the meadow completely with maize. There was then a very large surplus of maize. The large surplus needed to be managed otherwise no maize would be planted for the following harvest; "We have plenty of maize already!"

A maize broker was hired and maize storage created and debt collateralized by maize. 'Spot' maize and maize futures were traded overseas ... securities written against the maize and swaps brokered. Soon enough the traders and brokers became insolvent and required a bailout from the government ... in maize, of course. That finally caused the whole maize enterprise to collapse.

The problems are surplus problems, not shortages.

Shortages have the one generation of animals eating the one generation of plants and that is the end of the story.

There is entropy and all the universes are doomed to darkness and disorder on account of it ... maybe. Life spontaneously reorders the disordered state into new forms ... withing the 'marginal utility' constraints of a thermodynamic budget.

The original bacterium (as good a place to start this discussion as any) would have reproduced forever at geometric rates had there been enough of food, space, whatever. Constraints stopped that. The constraints would have been things like availble nutrients, available space (so the bacteria would not be smothered in its own waste) and the life span limits of the organizational structure of the bacterium. These constraints showed up as shortages to the increasing bacteria. There was no law saying the bacterium shall only replace itself, the law said the bacteria will fill all available space until stopped. If nothing stops the growth there is never a surplus but a shortage of whatever will stop the growth. Shortage not surplus sets the rules. End of story as long as organization of finite matter/energy dominates this universe.

Apparently in Viginia you have spent little time with hunter gatherers who remember shortages well and whose population had been kept in check by shortages for millenium after millenium (there is living local memory of that life up here) Humans have spent most of their years on this planet in the hunter gatherer mode. Your statement that 'humans don't do shortages' showed a disconnect from reality I couldn't pass over.

And just for language fun read some Milton (last name not first), that man ruled English like no other before or since. No point here intended except he is worth reading if you want to see how well language can be written. Of course language can't describe anything perfectly though poetry and music try to make a connect other than the mere symbolic value of the word would tend to allow. Still we are limited by whatever we can perceive and comprehend (in whatever fashion). In other words we are limited by our perceiving and comprehending system's shortfalls.

Make the most of the ride it is what we got.

Gail,
"We have already hit the wall on growth, and it is growth that is needed to pay back debt with interest"

Your graph of "per Capita US energy consumption " doesn't show hitting wall on growth, not even growth of energy.
The US population has been growing and so has the growth of energy and GDP/BOE( about 1%per year over 50 years). California has had no energy growth and both population and GDP growth. It's GDP growth and real interest rates that's relevant to pay back debt.

"If we should start reducing our coal use, we will really see a quick decline in total energy availability, because renewables are very small, and unable to ramp up on the scale needed to replace the coal lost."

That would be true, if nuclear and renewables had to replace the BTU's of FF but they only have to replace the electricity produced by coal lost or the work performed by oil. Old coal plants due to be retired are only about 35% efficient. Nuclear, hydro, wind and solar have have grown quickly in last 50 years, and the US and Canada have very large undeveloped resources of hydro, wind and solar. It will probably take 40 years to replace most coal, that's about 5-6GWa per year. Last years wind additions give half of that(allowing for a 30% capacity factor). One net new nuclear plant and one new hydro dam per year would give the balance.

Interest just might possibly be paid back without growth, but only with sacrifice - doing without something to come up with the money to pay the interest and principal. In no way is it possible to continually pile debts on top of debts and to service them in the absence of growth.

Purchasing power is declining to 'cash value' of productive labor. The scary issue is whether it is 'American productive labor' which is bad enough ... or 'Chinese productive labor'.

Also known as the race to the bottom.

Solving the excess inventory of real estate for instance will require demolishing millions of houses. Bringing supply and demand into equilibrium is a pitiless process.

There may well be good reasons for destroying those millions of homes, but it is not excess inventory. While people are unhoused there is no excess of housing inventory.
There is only the mismatch between the price of the housing and the income of the unhoused.

The oversupply also has something to do with how much space each American "needs" to live in. So it's going to be hard to say how much a house should cost, and how much space per person is appropriate for the price to earnings ratio, etc... Add to this decreasing available energy, and a floor price pre four-person family may not easily be reached.

Homeless people could be sharing a house with other people (there is a host of reasons why homeless Americans have not traditionally done this, while the rest of us live in larger and larger houses, over the years...)

Food prices don't drop because end consumer demand is dictating the price. It's not the price of raw materials that rises prices of final products, but the other way around... What you pay for raw materials does not influence the price at which you'll sell final product directly.