Thanks to Phil for an interesting post! The continuation of food production is an area of interest to all of us.

Phil gives links to a lot of publications and presentations I have not run into. Many of these are very worth checking out.

One thing I had not been aware of was that nitrogen fertilizer can be made with coal, rather than natural gas. It can also be made with stranded wind.

Gail, can you say more about how to make fertilizer with stranded wind? Do you mean "put a power source (windmill) in a remote region where the (also stranded) natural gas is?"

Thanks for the great post, Phil.

Ammonia is a compound with the formula NH3.

It is my understanding that it can be made in a number of ways. The more usual process is the Haber Process, or Haber-Bosch process, which gets its hydrogen from natural gas.

The hydrogen used in the process can also be obtained using electrolysis, by passing an electric current through water. It is my understanding that this is the approach contemplated using wind. Neal Rauhauser, known on The Oil Drum as SacredCowTipper, writes a little about the subject in this post.

My background in chemistry is not very strong. I am sure others on this site can provide more information.

Actually gail, the reason why they use mostly natural gas or coal to produce hydrogen is because it is far more energy efficient than using electrolysis. I think 99% of actual hydrogen production for chemistry purpose (fertilyzers, hydrogenated oil and fats, other chemical compounds) comes from the Haber-Bosch process.

Living near many hydro electric dams producing electricity at very low cost (my own electricity bill is only 0,054 $/kWh) I think industrial producers of Nitrogen would have installed new factories if it would have been profitable.

My own guess is that before natural gas and coal will be less available for Nitrogen production, the whole agribusiness infrastructure will have allready been completly changed. The increase in the cost of different inputs, the scarcity of some other (like tires) and the reduced ability to obtain credits and the reduce in global demand (even by just a few percentage) will have bigger effects than the availability of nitrogen fertilizers.

Again, that's my 2 cents.

I don't think we'll ever see wind powered ammonia production. Even if electrolysis got technically inexpensive, you still have other high capital cost restrictions, such as the engineering requirement of pressures on the order of 100 atmospheres.

Even if electrolysis got technically inexpensive, you still have other high capital cost restrictions, such as the engineering requirement of pressures on the order of 100 atmospheres.

I do not understand this statement. High pressure is part of the Haber-Bosch process no matter what the source of the hydrogen may be. The key difference between wind based ammonia production and natural gas based production is the cost of the hydrogen: i.e. steam reforming of natural gas vs water electrolysis.

One can check rapidly the well known wikipedia for answers on subject they are not familiar with. Industrials and investors mainly do stuff because they can earn a profit. If something can be done cheaply with a new technology, competitions laws tells us that the lower cost way will win.

That is why most hydrogen, thus amonia, is made using natural gas with the Haber-Bosch process.

Links to the article :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

Exerp from the article :

Ammonia was first manufactured using the Haber process on an industrial scale in 1913 in BASF's Oppau plant in Germany. During World War I, production was shifted from fertilizer to explosives, particularly through the conversion of ammonia into a synthetic form of Chile saltpeter, which could then be changed into other substances for the production of gunpowder and high explosives (the Allies had access to large amounts of Chile saltpeter from natural deposits in South America; Germany had to produce its own). It has been suggested that without this process, Germany would not have fought in the war[6], or would have had to surrender years earlier.

Prior to the use of natural gas as a hydrogen source, electricity was used to electrolyse water. The Vemork 60 MW hydro electric plant in Norway was constructed purely to produce hydrogen via electrolysis of water as a precursor to ammonia production, and up until the second world war provided the majority of Europe's ammonia.

But you can follow the rest of the article wich states that (emphasis added):

Nowadays, the bulk of the hydrogen required is produced from methane (natural gas) using heterogeneous catalysis, because this requires far less external energy input compared to the electrolysis of water. However, the source of the hydrogen makes no difference to the Haber-Bosch process, which is only concerned with synthesizing ammonia from nitrogen and hydrogen

After that, the articles goes on with the science, chemestry, and engigeering part of the process and then, almost at the end, a part on environment and economics :

The Haber process now produces 100 million tons of nitrogen fertilizer per year, mostly in the form of anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate, and urea. 3-5% of world natural gas production is consumed in the Haber process (~1-2% of the world's annual energy supply)[1][13][14][15]. That fertilizer is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population, as well as various deleterious environmental consequences.[2][5] Generation of hydrogen using electrolysis of water, using renewable energy, is not currently competitive cost-wise with hydrogen from fossil fuels, such as natural gas, and is responsible for 4% of current hydrogen production. Notably, the rise of this industrial process led to the "Nitrate Crisis" in Chile, when the industrials who owned the nitrate mines (most of them British) left the country — since the natural nitrate mines were no longer profitable — closing the mines and leaving a large unemployed Chilean population behind.

I hope that this little incursion into scientific knowledge will led people to think more in a scientific way than in a magic in wonderland way.

If the available overall energy is going downward, so it will for any process, especialy if it require more energy than it is currently. So I dont know how on any twist of mind can someone think that future earth inhabitant will use energy better used at enabling movement or computing to produce a chemical reaction wich is not really efficient. I mean, those windmills and Hydro plant will be kept in place with great efforts because all the infrastructure would have gone bust.

As I said on my previous post, the amonia from natural gas (or coal) wont be the thing missing in the agri business and it will not be the cause of the failure of that system. Many other things will have a more greater impact.

That was my 5 cents.

Based on electrolysis plus compression to 100 atm, it would take ~8 kwh of electricity per pound of ammonia whereas ammonia generated from natural gas is around 20 scf per pound. So grid electric
ammonia would cost 80 cents per pound and at $1 per therm NG prices, NG ammonia would cost 20 cents a pound.
Also to replace 15.2 million tons of NG ammonia completely with wind ammonia would take ~100 Gwe of wind running 2400 hours per year. To date the US has installed
25 Gwe of wind.
Still it is certainly possible to do it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'd guess that one does not need "grid electric" to do hydrolysis. And I'd bet that spread of $.80 to $.20 is largely accounted for in the emergy difference between "grid quality" electricity and "run of the mill" electricity. Or to put it another way, an off-grid windmill making ammonia is going to be way cheaper than using a grid tied windmill with all the associated requirements to generate electricity to grid standards and then using that electricity to make ammonia. It's like feeding beef into the compost pile when grass will do. A "point of the flame" issue.

The whole impedance mismatch of windmills (solar), lifestyle and the grid is a fascinating subject. The "flip the switch and we'll be there" meme has to die. Uses have to be tied to the times when power is available. Like those tidal mills of old - rotating shifts that matched the tides. So it's not only an issue of LESS, or even MUCH LESS, but WHEN.

cfm in Gray, ME

I'd guess that one does not need "grid electric" to do hydrolysis.

Indeed not.  Bulk electrolysis requires low-voltage DC at massive currents.

And I'd bet that spread of $.80 to $.20 is largely accounted for in the emergy difference between "grid quality" electricity and "run of the mill" electricity.

I'd take that bet.  Once your wind system is purchased, your only costs are amortization and O&M.  A given per-kWh cost isn't going to change much if you have a little hardware to interface to the grid, and you're certainly not going to get a 4:1 price cut.  Connecting to the grid may make the chemical system cheaper, because lots of these systems do not like being cycled on and off.

Ammonia can be produced from water and nitrogen gas using technology derived from solid oxide fuel cells(essentially running in reverse as you're supplying electricity). NHthree llc is trying to develop and commercialize the technology and they believe they'll be able to get 7-8 kWh/kg(3-4 kWh/lb) at lower capital requirements than haber-bosch and electrolysis.

There's also work being done searching for better catalysts that require much milder conditions than Haber-bosch.

There's nothing preventing you from deriving hydrogen gas from gasification of biomass sufficient for agriculture(as long as you don't try to use ammonia or hydrogen gas from biomass as a transportation fuel).

Why? The electrolysis-based process is older than the gas-based one, and if we could afford electrolysis-based nitrogen fertilizer 100 years ago we will be able to afford it in the future too.

One of the biggest fertilizer companies in the world is the Norwegian Yara. It utilises the North sea gas as a feedstock. But the North sea gas industry is only 40 years old, while Norway has been a center for fertilizer manufacture for export for twice as long.

Guess what? Yara used to be part of the company Norsk Hydro, which recently sold its oil&gas segment to Statoil. Guess what powered their fertilizer process? Clue: it's part of the company name...

FOOD FROM THE AIR; Projected Dams and Hydro-electric Stations Foundation for Great Future Industry

By DR. ROBERT CALVERT, Chemist, University of Southern California, Los Angeles.

March 5, 1922, Sunday

"FOOD from air" was the optimistic prediction of a chemist twenty years ago. Food from air is a reality today, in Norway, in Germany and at Niagara Falls, Canada.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E04E7DA1F30EE3AB...

Because back when people were electrolyzing water for hydrogen was before the transportation of natural gas was made a reality by the invention of seamless steel pipe(1920).
http://www.scienceclarified.com/Mu-Oi/Natural-Gas.html

Also until the North Sea was developed Norway didn't have natural gas.

Also natural gas has an advantage because CH4 + H20--> CO +3H2 releases more hydrogen than 2H20--> 2H2 +O2.

Electrolysis of water is quite possible as I said but its ammonia product will be more expensive.

It will be more expensive yes, but that was an expense we could readily afford 100 years ago, and today we are 10-15 times as rich as we were back then. So this is an utter non-problem.

I believe that the proponents are looking toward direct electrochemical synthesis of ammonia from nitrogen and water.

The synthesis cell operates at atmospheric pressure, but it may make more sense to pressurize the nitrogen so that the ammonia product can be condensed directly; water costs almost nothing to pump to the required pressure.

Where do we get our synthesized Nitrogen ?

I hear that a large % comes from Venezuela

The largest producer of ammonia in the world is Qatar, with large natural gas reserves. I don't know how much of their product comes to USA.

What is the difference between I-NPK and O-NPK ?

Don't we need to move towards O-NPK ?

Hello Jmygann,

You maybe sorry you asked for more clarification of my acronyms. :)

NPK = Elements: [N]itrogen, [P]hosphorus, Potassium [K].

NPK includes both types: I-NPK and O-NPK; also much easier than typing out every time 'industrial fertilizer' or 'organic fertilizer' respectively. My nomenclature I/O-NPK signifies both; basically the whole global industry of moving any and all forms to support life. There are literally hundreds of different choices.

NPK: The major quantity 'Big Three' for successful photosynthesis, but smaller quantities of other Elements may be topsoil required if soil sample testing warrants their addition to avoid a Liebig Minimum or controlling soil-PH. Sulfur, manganese, etc.

Also, NPK is a common certification ratio of these Elements [look at fertilizer bags next time you are at Home Depot or Lowes] 16-16-16, 16-16-8, plus many other ratios. For example: 21-0-0 printed on the bag for ammonium sulphate [basically a stabilized urea and sulfur chem-combo].

**I-NPK**: Industrial fertilizers such as Haber-Bosch [H-B] liquid anhydrous ammonia, urea, other chem-combos such as these common I-NPK types: DAP, MAP, UAN, TSP, MOP, etc. Prilled, pelletized, powder forms. Some forms are more highly purified: it is then suitable for adding to animal feed or for human consumption.

Miracle Gro, Vigoro, Bandini, Scotts, Bayer, etc, may be familiar retail brand names to you.

Sulfur now mostly sourced from sour crude & sour natgas. Nitrogen from natgas-sourced Haber-Bosch. P and K are mined, then beneficiated through huge factories. Huge quantities of sulfuric acid are needed to turn P-ores into water soluble ions suitable for plant absorption.

**O-NPK**: Organic fertilizers such as leaves, yard clippings, kitchen scraps, animal manures & humanures, urine, bird & bat guanos, other composted materials. Retail stuff such as sphagnum peat moss, steer manure, mulch-mix, woodbark chips, bone meal, etc. Legume crop rotation for soil N-fixation would be in this O-NPK category too.

To add even more to your confusion: you can even buy various types of O-NPK that has been further enriched by adding various amounts of I-NPK. This typically is bags of topsoil amendments and potting soils sold at retail outlets. Hope this helps you understand.

Yep, O-NPK for crops was the standard method until early chemists figured out that sylvinite and apatite ores and H-B could be harnessed to make many I-NPK products.