91 comments on How Might We Be Fed? Part One
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91 comments on How Might We Be Fed? Part One
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GAIA Host Collective
Gail, can you say more about how to make fertilizer with stranded wind? Do you mean "put a power source (windmill) in a remote region where the (also stranded) natural gas is?"
Thanks for the great post, Phil.
Ammonia is a compound with the formula NH3.
It is my understanding that it can be made in a number of ways. The more usual process is the Haber Process, or Haber-Bosch process, which gets its hydrogen from natural gas.
The hydrogen used in the process can also be obtained using electrolysis, by passing an electric current through water. It is my understanding that this is the approach contemplated using wind. Neal Rauhauser, known on The Oil Drum as SacredCowTipper, writes a little about the subject in this post.
My background in chemistry is not very strong. I am sure others on this site can provide more information.
Actually gail, the reason why they use mostly natural gas or coal to produce hydrogen is because it is far more energy efficient than using electrolysis. I think 99% of actual hydrogen production for chemistry purpose (fertilyzers, hydrogenated oil and fats, other chemical compounds) comes from the Haber-Bosch process.
Living near many hydro electric dams producing electricity at very low cost (my own electricity bill is only 0,054 $/kWh) I think industrial producers of Nitrogen would have installed new factories if it would have been profitable.
My own guess is that before natural gas and coal will be less available for Nitrogen production, the whole agribusiness infrastructure will have allready been completly changed. The increase in the cost of different inputs, the scarcity of some other (like tires) and the reduced ability to obtain credits and the reduce in global demand (even by just a few percentage) will have bigger effects than the availability of nitrogen fertilizers.
Again, that's my 2 cents.
I don't think we'll ever see wind powered ammonia production. Even if electrolysis got technically inexpensive, you still have other high capital cost restrictions, such as the engineering requirement of pressures on the order of 100 atmospheres.
I do not understand this statement. High pressure is part of the Haber-Bosch process no matter what the source of the hydrogen may be. The key difference between wind based ammonia production and natural gas based production is the cost of the hydrogen: i.e. steam reforming of natural gas vs water electrolysis.
One can check rapidly the well known wikipedia for answers on subject they are not familiar with. Industrials and investors mainly do stuff because they can earn a profit. If something can be done cheaply with a new technology, competitions laws tells us that the lower cost way will win.
That is why most hydrogen, thus amonia, is made using natural gas with the Haber-Bosch process.
Links to the article :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
Exerp from the article :
But you can follow the rest of the article wich states that (emphasis added):
After that, the articles goes on with the science, chemestry, and engigeering part of the process and then, almost at the end, a part on environment and economics :
I hope that this little incursion into scientific knowledge will led people to think more in a scientific way than in a magic in wonderland way.
If the available overall energy is going downward, so it will for any process, especialy if it require more energy than it is currently. So I dont know how on any twist of mind can someone think that future earth inhabitant will use energy better used at enabling movement or computing to produce a chemical reaction wich is not really efficient. I mean, those windmills and Hydro plant will be kept in place with great efforts because all the infrastructure would have gone bust.
As I said on my previous post, the amonia from natural gas (or coal) wont be the thing missing in the agri business and it will not be the cause of the failure of that system. Many other things will have a more greater impact.
That was my 5 cents.
Based on electrolysis plus compression to 100 atm, it would take ~8 kwh of electricity per pound of ammonia whereas ammonia generated from natural gas is around 20 scf per pound. So grid electric
ammonia would cost 80 cents per pound and at $1 per therm NG prices, NG ammonia would cost 20 cents a pound.
Also to replace 15.2 million tons of NG ammonia completely with wind ammonia would take ~100 Gwe of wind running 2400 hours per year. To date the US has installed
25 Gwe of wind.
Still it is certainly possible to do it.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I'd guess that one does not need "grid electric" to do hydrolysis. And I'd bet that spread of $.80 to $.20 is largely accounted for in the emergy difference between "grid quality" electricity and "run of the mill" electricity. Or to put it another way, an off-grid windmill making ammonia is going to be way cheaper than using a grid tied windmill with all the associated requirements to generate electricity to grid standards and then using that electricity to make ammonia. It's like feeding beef into the compost pile when grass will do. A "point of the flame" issue.
The whole impedance mismatch of windmills (solar), lifestyle and the grid is a fascinating subject. The "flip the switch and we'll be there" meme has to die. Uses have to be tied to the times when power is available. Like those tidal mills of old - rotating shifts that matched the tides. So it's not only an issue of LESS, or even MUCH LESS, but WHEN.
cfm in Gray, ME
Indeed not. Bulk electrolysis requires low-voltage DC at massive currents.
I'd take that bet. Once your wind system is purchased, your only costs are amortization and O&M. A given per-kWh cost isn't going to change much if you have a little hardware to interface to the grid, and you're certainly not going to get a 4:1 price cut. Connecting to the grid may make the chemical system cheaper, because lots of these systems do not like being cycled on and off.
Ammonia can be produced from water and nitrogen gas using technology derived from solid oxide fuel cells(essentially running in reverse as you're supplying electricity). NHthree llc is trying to develop and commercialize the technology and they believe they'll be able to get 7-8 kWh/kg(3-4 kWh/lb) at lower capital requirements than haber-bosch and electrolysis.
There's also work being done searching for better catalysts that require much milder conditions than Haber-bosch.
There's nothing preventing you from deriving hydrogen gas from gasification of biomass sufficient for agriculture(as long as you don't try to use ammonia or hydrogen gas from biomass as a transportation fuel).
Why? The electrolysis-based process is older than the gas-based one, and if we could afford electrolysis-based nitrogen fertilizer 100 years ago we will be able to afford it in the future too.
One of the biggest fertilizer companies in the world is the Norwegian Yara. It utilises the North sea gas as a feedstock. But the North sea gas industry is only 40 years old, while Norway has been a center for fertilizer manufacture for export for twice as long.
Guess what? Yara used to be part of the company Norsk Hydro, which recently sold its oil&gas segment to Statoil. Guess what powered their fertilizer process? Clue: it's part of the company name...
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E04E7DA1F30EE3AB...
Because back when people were electrolyzing water for hydrogen was before the transportation of natural gas was made a reality by the invention of seamless steel pipe(1920).
http://www.scienceclarified.com/Mu-Oi/Natural-Gas.html
Also until the North Sea was developed Norway didn't have natural gas.
Also natural gas has an advantage because CH4 + H20--> CO +3H2 releases more hydrogen than 2H20--> 2H2 +O2.
Electrolysis of water is quite possible as I said but its ammonia product will be more expensive.
It will be more expensive yes, but that was an expense we could readily afford 100 years ago, and today we are 10-15 times as rich as we were back then. So this is an utter non-problem.
I believe that the proponents are looking toward direct electrochemical synthesis of ammonia from nitrogen and water.
The synthesis cell operates at atmospheric pressure, but it may make more sense to pressurize the nitrogen so that the ammonia product can be condensed directly; water costs almost nothing to pump to the required pressure.
Where do we get our synthesized Nitrogen ?
I hear that a large % comes from Venezuela
The largest producer of ammonia in the world is Qatar, with large natural gas reserves. I don't know how much of their product comes to USA.