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150 comments on Drumbeat: March 26, 2009

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 10:09am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Weakened immune systems from low level pesticide toxicity, inbreeding depression from reduced population size & increased distance between colonies reducing outbreeding, habitat loss & hibernation disruption by researchers & spelunkers drawing down energy (fat) stores, evolution of pathogens for increased virulence in the face of population & environmental changes, mortality from wind turbines.. a perfect combination of stressors driving down bat populations towards extinction. As AGW increases the range of mosquito vectors of human disease northward, people are going to wish there were more bats. Electric trains & toothbrushes powered by the wind will be cold comfort to those suffering from West Nile virus or malarial infection.

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 10:17am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Those pesky wind turbines!

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 10:23am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/?Page=News&storyID=13959

"without healthy ecosystems to regulate climate and rainfall and provide habitat for pollinators, agriculture would collapse."

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paal myrtvedt on March 26, 2009 - 10:24am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

you like that cartoon very much :-)

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TrueKaiser on March 26, 2009 - 10:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Stop spamming the board please.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 10:36am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Rather than resort to cogent counter-argumentation, some posters stoop to spamming & stalking those they disagree with. It's a common practice on internet fora, when one's case is weaker &/or one is less articulate than their rhetorical "opponent." On moderated fora, whether such practice is tolerated is up to TPTB.

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TrueKaiser on March 26, 2009 - 10:48am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I was just pointing out it was spam in hopes that tptb here tell him to stop.

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 1:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I happen to like that cartoon, and it is the most coherent and relevant reply I have yet found to the "Wind Turbines Kill Birds and Bats" argument that darwinsdog insists on posting in almost every Drumbeat.

It is very compact, I only post it once per Drumbeat, and only in response to those posts.

If that is what passes for spamming in this day, then the Internet is truly doomed.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 1:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I liked it too.. the first time I saw it.

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 1:09pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I think the same about your birds and bats argument.

Otherwise I find myself in general agreement with you, I just think that you are going overboard on that one.

My point having been made, I shall stop posting links to it now.

...and Carthage must be destroyed!

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 1:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I am going overboard on it, you're right. It's not my major concern by a long shot. I'm far more concerned about the impact of dams & hydroelectric generation on lotic & riparian ecosystems than I am about avian & chiropteran mortality from wind turbines. (I'm an ichthyologist, after all, not an ornithologist or mammalologist.) It's the cognitive dissonance from advocates of alt tech who consider themselves to be "greener than thou" evoked by having it pointed out that their pet alt green majik BBs aren't so green after all, that motivates me to keep picking at this particular wound. It amuses me to see all the reactionary protestations - such as yours - to my offerings of simple truth, logic & morality, on the subject of wind turbines. Just admit that turbines do kill birds & bats, that populations in decline don't need additional stressors on them, and that two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to contribute suggest how turbines can be designed so that they don't kill birds & bats, or where they should be situated so as to mitigate mortality, or what else can be done to assuage pressure on populations of flying vertebrates in compensation for turbine mortality. Posting the same cartoon, no matter how funny it was the first time we saw it, doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion.

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 1:42pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

All the things you ask for have been posted by others, and then some.

My contribution was to point out the continual repetition of the argument, as efficiently as possible and with a small amount of humor so as not to be too stinging.

In my opinion every KW of wind power that replaces a KW of fossil fuel power is a win for all flying creatures, due to the effects of pollution on the air that their supercharged lungs need to process. I also support well monitored nuclear, some hydro power, solar, and good old-fashioned elbow grease as power sources.

I might just be a quaint treehugger that way, though.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 1:53pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

In my opinion every KW of wind power that replaces a KW of fossil fuel power..

When has this ever happened? Has a FF burning power plant ever been decommissioned due to a wind farm being built? If wind generation was replacing FF generation on a kW to kW basis, I'd agree with you that this was a net improvement to environmental quality, but I don't see it happening. One may argue, and there may even be a degree of truth to it, that increased wind capacity has contributed to the delay or cancellation of plans to build FF burning plants, but I don't think any hard evidence for this exists. There's only one thing that a good treehugger should be advocating: conservation, powerdown.

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 2:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Conservation while still using grossly polluting energy sources is only half the equation.

You need conservation and clean(er) energy sources. Only advocating half the solution while denigrating those who mostly advocate the other half is counterproductive.

And honestly, wind, hydro, solar and nuclear have to my knowledge only replaced new FF generation capacity, though the old oil-fired plants are mostly gone now.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 2:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Make me Boss & I'll order the shutdown of every coal fired power plant on day one, and the phase out of every NG burning plant within a year or two. Of course, I'll order the shut down of every nuke plant on day one likewise, and commence the takeout of every dam. "But what will we do for electricity," she cried?!? In the first place, we can do without about 7/8 of what we currently waste. For the remainder, we can go with PV on every existing rooftop in the nation and, yes! wind turbines designed so that they don't & can't kill flying verts. Such turbines may not be as "efficient" as those currently deployed but what good is efficiency of electricity generation at the expense of ecosystems and the vital services they provide? "You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..."

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r4ndom on March 26, 2009 - 2:44pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I'd personally leave the nuclear in place, but I'm not afraid of radiation except in large quantities outside a containment. Fuel recycling is an absolute must, however.

I'd probably leave well established hydro in place, as new ecosystems form both up and downstream of the dams, and the act of tearing down a 30 year old dam can be almost as destructive ecologically as the original act of putting it up was.

A little distributed power and a lot of conservation would go a long way with that as a base.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 2:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

See? There's a lot of common ground & room for compromise when we agree to be reasonable.

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WNC Observer on March 26, 2009 - 10:39am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

We probably need some type of rule that X number of new bat boxes need to be built (a suitable distance away) for every WT that is put up. Habitat destruction probably has a lot more to do with declining bat populations than WTs, but this would be one way to address that.

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eric blair on March 26, 2009 - 11:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Alas, you can not overwinter bats in boxes where it gets snowy.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 11:21am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Good idea Observer. And I agree with you that habitat destruction is a much greater depressor of bat populations than wind turbines currently are, probably orders of magnitude so, at this point. My only point is that stressed populations don't need additional stressors, however trivial they may be, piled on top of preexisting stressors. The existence of worse things don't justify bad things.

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eric blair on March 26, 2009 - 11:42am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

My only point is that stressed populations don't need additional stressors, however trivial they may be, piled on top of preexisting stressors.

How noble of you.

Looking out for all them creatures. The stress of cars arn't needed - yet you don't make regular posts on how cars kill critters like wind machines do.

Biologically your wife should be dead, what with her diabetes. Yet, when you rail about electric toothbrushes and how the planet will be better off without the high tech, you never mention that high tech keeps her alive.

You talk about the threats of man's actions on the planet - yet you bragged about how your genes will continue in your kids. So much for living the 'the earth needs less population' manta you state.

Your nobility - we can all only hope one day to be as noble as you sir!

The existence of worse things don't justify bad things.

How very black and white of you. Perhaps one day you'll come into the real world and leave the world of AD&D Paladinship behind.

Because here, in the real world, every watt from wind ends up being a watt less generated from burning fossil fuels, daming rivers, or splitting atoms - the 3 latter choices you've also derided. At least with a wind machine dead is dead - the whole biosphere isn't effected by radiation/mercury/CO2 like burning FF does.

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eric blair on March 26, 2009 - 10:57am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

low level pesticide toxicity...habitat loss & hibernation disruption by researchers & spelunkers...mortality from wind turbines.

You forgot to mention how cats are also to blame.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/crossing_paths/fall2008/cross_02.html

As AGW increases the range of mosquito vectors of human disease northward, people are going to wish there were more bats. Electric trains & toothbrushes powered by the wind will be cold comfort to those suffering from West Nile virus or malarial infection.

Bill Gates will save you.
http://www.africanloft.com/malaria-control-goes-laser-tech-bill-gates-fu...

But really, there is only one way to address all them pesky human induced problems.

http://www.vhemt.org

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tstreet on March 26, 2009 - 11:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Whether we know it or not, we have a strong and thriving voluntary extinction movement. The pro procreators and growth advocates just don't realize it yet.

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 11:25am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The pro procreators and growth advocates just don't realize it yet.

Oh please. I had an entire thread going yesterday, based on reaction against my promotion of the virtues of procreation, yet I was a longtime fan of the Church of Euthanasia website. I don't think it exists anymore, unfortunately. It was a hoot! ;)

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darwinsdog on March 26, 2009 - 11:32am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Here it is, sorry, I guess it'd just moved from the bookmarked link I had for it:

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/

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150 comments on Drumbeat: March 26, 2009

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