43 comments on Forecasting Coal Production Until 2100
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43 comments on Forecasting Coal Production Until 2100
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GAIA Host Collective
Could you show more detail about the US? In particular, reserves and resources, not including cumulative production to date? The bituminous reserve figure appears far too low. I'd also be curious to see the projected consumption curve for the US, as I expect consumption to flatten and then decline fairly soon due to CO2-related restrictions.
Hubbert's bell curve technique doesn't tell us anything about the underlying causes of production peaks and declines: Coal production in the US and UK, for instance, has less to do with the resource, and more to do with the availability of other fuels (i.e., oil and lower sulfur coals), and internal politics (i.e., the mine workers union vs Thatcher).
In other words, in many cases we have been seeing peak demand, not supply. Mercury and lead, for instance, have seen peak demand. If you apply Hubbert's bell curve technique to production, you'll get results that have little to do with the actual resource.
Coal really needs a bottom up analysis, not an HL analysis.
Hi Nick,
A curve fit to production data gives 155Mt for future British production. This is consistent with the 155Mt given for proved, recoverable reserves in the 2007 World Energy Council survey. Curve fits to production data give reasonable estimates for future production from 1900 on. The first time Britain submitted realistic reserves to the WEC was in 2004.
The last time Britain submitted a resources number to the WEC was in 2001:
"British Coal’s annual report for 1991/1992, coal in place (in seams over 0.6 metres thick and less than 1 200 metres deep) was estimated as 190 billion tonnes, of which some 45 billion tonnes could be extracted with current technology."
Could you please explain to me how the bottom-up resource number of 190Gt (or 45Gt) is more useful than the 155Mt number that comes from a production curve fit?
Thanks,
Dave
"Could you please explain to me how the bottom-up resource number of 190Gt (or 45Gt) is more useful than the 155Mt number that comes from a production curve fit?"
I'm puzzled. It's not useful to know that the 155mt figure is "what is likely to be produced", not "what's available if we really needed to produce it"?
If we got clearer on this notion, we might be able to replace statements like this:"The notion that coal is widely abundant therefore appears to be unjustified." with "The notion that coal is is likely to be produced in every larger quantities therefore appears to be unjustified."
They're very, very different things. One suggests either that we face a dangerous cliff of energy scarcity (presuming we need coal) or that concerns about CO2 emissions are unwarranted (presuming we don't need coal). The other suggests that in the ordinary course of events we're only likely to phase coal out, if things keep on going according to BAU, but that we could certainly burn it if we decided we needed to.
It's very important to know that geology isn't the primary decision maker, economics and politics is. We're not going to physically run out of coal, we're going to have to decide to phase it out.
There are still a lot of people who'd like to dig up all of that coal and burn it - here's an example: http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2007/10/15/old-...
Hubbert's Linearization is a bit of mathematical legerdemain.
The formula P/Q= k*(1-Q/URR) has a direct solution of
Q= URR/(1+URR*exp(-k*t)) and so production P which is just Q differentiated over time is
P=URR^2*k* exp(-k*t)/((1+U*exp(-kt))^2
'If' we are at peak all we need to know is how much coal we've burned(50% of URR) and how much production is occuring.
When you are at peak P=k*Q*(1-.5URR/URR) or k=2*P/Q.
So if we use Rutledge's HL case--URR of 700 Gtcoal, and we are at Peak at 7 Gtcoal/year, k=2*7/350=4%.
So the production curve would be
P=700^2*.04*exp(-.04*t)/(1+700*exp(-.04*t))^2
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/927/700i.png
For the high R+C case--URR of 1243 Peak at 10 Gtcoal/yr k=2*10/622=.032
So the production curve for R+C would be
P=1243^2*.032*exp(-.032*t)/(1+1243*exp(-.032*t))^2
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/246/1243.png
It is interesting how nicely these curves work but they aren't remotely scientific( unless you accept the much reviled geological estimates of URR). Just look at how fast coal use races upward in R+C after 2000 just to follow the logistic curve!
They are just based on when you assume a Peak is, using whatever URR you want and how high production you assume.
The BG hypothesis looks like a summation of curves but ends up plateauing for 60 years at 8 Gt/yr. It is probably somewhat less inaccurate because it is a sum of 'expert' estimates of URR--I do think the authors did try to use some judgement but their 'tool' (HL) is a bit silly.
I think we can predict future consumption based on our current need and depletion on respectable geological estimates(not state estimates..the Chinese claim they have a trillion tons of coal!).
I think we will use as much energy as we can dig up and while consumption may not increase, constant demand will cause miners to dig for energy regardless of 'curves'.
Hi
I think I need to clarify.
We only used the HL trend for the HL URR estimate - we were aiming with this to confirm for ourselves that Daves URR via this method was plausible and to then apply the numbers in the model. likewise we used the Reserves + Cumulative to get another URR estimate - had there been detailed URR estimate for world coal (eg made by the USGS), we would have used it and created a fourth scenario. I am not a geologist, nor an economist and do not claim to know what the URR of coal is, I'm simply using the "best" numbers I can find. The HL trends for Europe are interesting, particularly in that Germany, Poland and UK, seem to be revising their reserve estimates downward to numbers that are in line with the HL trend. (so much for mathematical trickery, perhaps reserves inertia)
If China has so much coal, why did their last revision of reserves back around 1992 go downward and not upward?, why is the WEC reserve estimate unchanged and not dramatically increased?? - I personally think their 1992 estimate is pretty close to the mark.
BG = best guess = least worst guess, some numbers are from the HL trend estimate, some are reserves + cumulative, others are numbers found from other references. Again if there is so much coal, where are the geological estimates on the URR to back the statement. In the abscence of good geological estimates, I'm forced to make estimates from other methods and guess.
Forth the model does not use hubberts curve, nor does the code require peak year estimates, demand-supply interactions are included to attempt to force the production to continue on the BAU trend.
"I think we can predict future consumption based on our current need and depletion on respectable geological estimates(not state estimates..the Chinese claim they have a trillion tons of coal!)."
what respectable geological estimates?? I've taken the WEC reserves to create the R+C scenario. Is this the respectable geological estimate? if not, what is?
economist and do not claim to know what the URR of coal is, I'm simply using the "best" numbers I can find. The HL trends for Europe are interesting, particularly in that Germany, Poland and UK, seem to be revising their reserve estimates downward to numbers that are in line with the HL trend. (so much for mathematical trickery, perhaps reserves inertia)
Hi,
I looked at the question of coal reserve in Europe 6 month ago and found a report in French about coal reserve that mentioned that the strong downward reserve estimates after 2003 were linked to mine closing in 2004 due to the end of subsidies to mining industry imposed by EU. As a result the last French mines closed (no more official reserve even though the coal is still in place) as well as many mines in Germany and Belgium. If I remember correctly, the decrease for lignite reserve in Germany was over a factor 10 after the change in economical situation (no subsidies authorized). A strong raise in the cost of coal could make these reserves "reappear" suddenly because they become again economical... if there is no ecological opposition. You could check the pre-2004 reserve estimate for Europe to compare and see the discrepancies in reserve estimate.
The same thing happened with uranium in 2004: All the uranium reserve of France suddenly disappearing in 2004 because in became uneconomical after subsidies were cut. Again in that case, the mine closed and some of the reserves (over 10,000 tons) were never touched.
Anyway, the drop in reserve estimate is not due to re-evaluation of the amount of coal by geologists but to an economical decision at the level of EU. Such decision could be reversed if countries become desperate for some energy source.
Beside that, I find this paper pretty good.
Christophe
And that's exactly why the "Reserves" figure is not an "Ultimate Reserves" figure, much less an overestimate of URR.
Take a look at Gail's graph for coal at one large field; a 10% increase in the retail cost of electricity would be enough to make reserves in that field increase by six times.
Such massive price-based variability demonstrates that not only are Reserves not the same as URR, they're not even a good estimate for it. (For coal, anyway.)
The US has not added to coal electricity generation capacity in years, and industrial production using coal has moved offshore. The result is flat to declining US demand, since natural gas is taking the place of coal. Reserves are reserves in open mines, as I understand it. There is little incentive to add new mines, when current capacity is plenty for the immediate future. I suspect this is part of the reason reserves are not growing, not the lack of coal.
One point of the USGS Study regarding the Gillette Field in Wyoming is that the amount of coal production is quite dependent on price.
Heading Out (Dave Summers) assures me that newer technology is available to increase production, if prices were somewhat higher. Wyoming coal prices have been very low for a long time. (Gillette coal is from the Powder River Basin).
AddedBecause of these issues, I think production is likely to be more than HL would suggest. On the other hand, lack of oil to operate equipment (and failure to quickly replace this equipment with electric equipment) may very much slow production.
WEC and USGS are quite respectable estimates IMO, but not Energy Watch or HL based estimates. I heard some Chinese guy on TV saying that they have a trillion tons(evidently that is what the Chinese government is telling its citizens). India also has bad figures IMO because is has very high levels of ash in it. Technologies like CCS could use high sulfur coals which currently pose a acid rain problem( high BTU Illinois coal is burnt but 'diluted' with low BTU Wyoming coal).
US coal reserves(extractable with present technology, not including protected areas, etc.) are officially 270 Gt but US coal resources are 447 Gt(indicated and inferred).One technology that could greatly increase coal use is in-situ underground coal gasification(UCG).
I am sure you know all this but is it included in your estimate?
http://tiny.cc/OuvU7
Then there are billions of tons of oil shale which the Estonians burn as coal. I doubt these are included.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_Power_Plants
You must realize that here at TOD the argument is continually made that we will run out of coal before we reach the red line of 450ppm, 600 ppm, 1000 ppm etc. and HL is used to predict production for coal to prove it.
I am relieved that you are using expert assessments rather than relying on mathematical 'tools'.
Coal is dirty and the biggest GHG problem but coal is important not just for electricity but for plastics, fertilizer, etc. and it WILL be mined.
Shale particularly that mined in Estonia (but also Brazil) is included in our work on unconventional oil. (hopefully gets accepted at some point in time).
Coal insitu-gasification is treated as unconventional gas (or will be if I get round to it).
evidently I hit a nerve, I'm not particularly interested in the URR of coal, I am interested in creating better and more accurate models to predict energy and other resources production. The URR value to me, is a necessary evil I need to get from somewhere - I'd be much happier if there was a general consenses on what the URR value is, and just use high low estimates from that. I hope the real URR is somewhere contained in the interval indicated, but I do not know, and cannot know that (again, I'm a Mathematican and Chemical Engineer, not a Geologist or Economist). I'm happy if I've gotten the URR wrong, its straight forward to change the numbers in the model, again, if there are geological based, recent estimates that indicate the URR is somewhere outside the range (eg a justification for the IPCC estimate of 7000 Gt that Dave mentioned) then please let me know. that way I can modify the model for the phd and use HL trend as a low case, a presumably modified best guess case and some high case based on a better geological URR estimate.
The IPCC estimate comes from basically counting every bit of solid carbon in the world as "coal". That means the thin seams nobody bothers digging up and uses for coal seam gasification, the shale, estimated undiscovered reserves in the Arctic, etc.
That's why price affects reserves - if you were willing to pay $10 billion a barrel you could get oil from Titan the hydrocarbon moon of Saturn.
With the various studies reviewed by the IPCC, there's no consideration that at certain price points people will just give up on it as an energy source - whether they want to or not. Some thoughts along those lines are in The Freezing Point of Industrial Society.
I concluded that "To create and maintain a modern industrial economy requires fuel affordability of something between 1,500-10,000lt per person annually." That is, if you can't afford at least 1,500lt of fuel with the median income, then you won't have SUVs and plastic wishbones and factories and so on.
I mean, you can still build these things, rich people will still have them, but it won't be widespread the way it is in the West today.
So the price point where fuel affordability is 1,500-10,000lt per person, that's where you need to look for URR for oil. Coal and gas will be in appropriate proportion to that. It's still only a rough idea with a large margin of error, but it's less than the variance given in the literature.
I think that this varies enormously by country.
My hope is that US consumption will stay flat, and start falling. Given that the US has the largest reserves, that's pretty important.
I suspect that UK consumption will also stay low.
China and India may burn everything they can find, though China is certainly ramping up wind, solar and nuclear (India also, though somewhat less), and electrical demand is certainly falling below earlier projections. That's worth some detailed analysis.
Australia? Hard to know, but they don't seem to be limiting their coal production and exports at all. This may depend on demand from Asia, which is hard to project.
Germany might be a middle case.
Majorian,
I still think EnergyWatch are producing good work but it may be helpfull to break the post-peak curve into 2 elements, the bulk curve followed by a long slim tail.
Judgments as to what is economically recoverable using current economics and technology seem to support an early peak and a substantial reduction below IPCC SRES scenarios (which IIRC are based on IEA data). But that may not be the whole story.
I'm picturing the situation much later this century (assuming we've not cracked fusion), we may see a situation where people are using the sort of mining technology employed at the start of the industrial revolution (even before) to extract reserves we would not normally consider recoverable. Indeed the technology would not be solely early/pre-industrial because we'd still have some benefit from what we have learned since. It's not necessary for the whole globe to be working at such a low-tech level without heavy machinery, such mining could be confined to regional areas.
In impoverished societies well beyond peak energy labour may well be cheaper than machines. Just look at what the Egyptians achieved at Ghiza with cheap labour (relative to modern standards) and the will of the ruling class.
This reduction of rate of emission might seem to be reassuring. However Dr David Archer in "Millennial Atmospheric Lifetime of Anthropogenic CO2" concludes:
"The [carbon cycle] model studies we reviewed here differ substantially from each other in
parameterizations of oceanic and land carbon uptakes, the deep-sea sediment response,
and emissions pathways. However, despite all these differences, the models agree that the
substantial fraction of projected CO2 emissions will stay in the atmosphere for millennia,
and a part of fossil fuel CO2 will remain in atmosphere forever. Many slowly responding
components of the climate system, such as ice sheets and methane hydrates,
will be affected, and significant sea level rise is inevitable."
In view of which if I am correct in suggesting a "long slim tail" of emissions as humanity scratches out the last reserves of coal, the tail may be long and slim, but it would still be significant in terms of additions to the carbon cycle. However estimating how much coal may be extracted in that tail (time integral) will be virtually impossible with so much uncertainty about the assumptions that need to be used.