273 comments on "Peak Oil" or "Limits to Growth"
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273 comments on "Peak Oil" or "Limits to Growth"
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Hi WebHubbleTelescope (and others), I'd like to convince some friends that 'peak oil' most likely took place in 2008. Of course I can give links to ASPO and other predictions but then they can say 'why should I believe that? it could just be wrong' So, what are your arguments to convince people?
I am sure you have seen Ace's projections that show based on a field by field analysis of what companies are saying about when new fields are coming on line. He also takes into account expected decline rates of existing fields. Ace's forecasts were higher before the financial crisis hit. Now that oil prices are lower, companies have pared back their plans for new projects.
The reason that even after the next few years a rebound is unlikely is that base production is dropping rapidly, because of the decline rate on existing fields. Once we fall behind in adding new production, it will be virtually impossible to catch up again.
We know many of the biggest fields, like Ghawar, are getting closer to the end of their life. Surprises on the downside are much more likely than on the upside.
We would really need some upsurge caused by low-priced improved technology to get more oil out. At this point, we don't see any signs of this being at hand. Most of the possibilities seem to be high priced, and will set the economy into a tailspin if oil prices are high enough to support them.
I have succesfully convinced some people, but some others are hard to convince.
One person replied: "I prefer to live in ignorance"
When trying to convince someone, ask him/her: why the oil companies have not invested in new refineries?
Tell people that in one TOD survey, 81% of the participants believe Peak Oil already happened, is happening now, or will happen before 2013.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5186
http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=Up5DUIASuWiOv4TyiyK6SBwfqHaAMra5q...
The following video is very convincing:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-596805984521272213
And if a person does not have 33 minutes, ask him/her to watch these other videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=xT-ZpYgaHgc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=l0MWDQ6JPTo&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xT-ZpYgaHgc&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l0MWDQ6JPTo&feature=related
Also, ask them to see the following OIL REPORT:
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/Reports.24+M5d637b1e38d.0.html
and to read this: http://www.energybulletin.net/primer
Hi George,
I think people like to have some idea that there are better ways to respond, some positive actions one might take and that society, in general, might take - and that all is not lost. In fact, if we actually manage to absorb the truth, there's quite a bit we can do.
Meanwhile,
re: "When trying to convince someone, ask him/her: why the oil companies have not invested in new refineries?"
My understanding is that the oil companies have invested in new refinery *capacity*, and that this equates to new refineries, which are not built due to the permitting process. No links.
In other words, I'd check with TODers who are familiar with this topic.
We now have too much refinery capacity, thanks to upgrades to existing US facilities, and new capacity around the world.
I know what you're getting to but there are flawless counter arguments to this statement of yours. This is the same as saying "80% of the participants in an Intelligent Design site survey believed that God exists".
The power of denial overwhelms logic. I spent 2 hours talking about peak oil, population and even played a few 'parts' of some of my favourite documentaries (Life at the end of the Empire, A Crude Awakening (and even the light-headed, "dumbed down" Story Of Stuff)). But you know what happened at the end? Besides a sore throat after all the talking, everybody went back to talking about the best mortgage plan.
I didn't know about peak oil when I was born. Nor did it seem such a big 'threat' when I got to know about it (for I immediately only associated 'cars' with petroleum than 'food'). It takes patience to tell people... and more than that, it takes slow, digestable amounts of information to be fed to them periodically to create awareness).
I have another idea: A set of simple to understand posters. On the lines of "Did you know how much of the food we eat needs petroleum? 100 gms of food needs 1. X volume for fertilizer 2. X volume for pesticides 3. X volume for labour 4. X volume for irrigation 5. X volume for transport 6. X volume for storage - Total: Y volumes"
Game to do this? :)
tonyp:
Don't rely your case on what people are asserting/predicting. The facts to date speak loudly enough (to those with functioning ears). Firstly in any productive engagement you have to lead them with questions rather than preach to them: "Are you envisaging to be alive in 5 years time?", "Where can you get sound information from?" (etc.) Flatter their delusion of being rational inquiring minds! (and respect them as equals who might surprise you by showing you to be in error yourself; why should you expect respect if you don't give it?)
Then just observe how (a) the production growth has stalled since 2004. Note how (b) the financial/credit/economic system is crucially dependent on continued growth. Note that the implication of (a) plus (b) is that some sort of economic crisis right now is inevitable, and is indeed taking place. Note the failure to invest in future production, due to faulty market. Producers squealing that they can no longer produce at the current prices. Exporter countries relentlessly turning into importers.
This isn't rocket science and it does not depend on blind faith in some incomprehensible 'ace' etc expertise. Rather it's the denial position that is the act of blind faith.
Why?
I don't mean that rhetorically, either, but as an honest question: for what reason do you wish to convince them of this particular proposition?
If you want them to engage in a particular behaviour, such as consuming less oil, then directly addressing that behaviour is almost certainly a more productive approach. For example, simply noting that: (a) oil production seems to be struggling to keep up with oil consumption; (b) that led to high prices in the last few years; and (c) prices are still relatively high and likely to rise in the near future is much less controversial and uncertain, but should have much the same effect in terms of raising awareness regarding oil consumption.
By contrast, if you want to induce a particular mindset, such as believing that civilization is ending, then the timing of peak oil is only one tiny fragment of what you'll need to convince them of. In that case, you're not merely trying to convince people of a physical fact, but of your interpretation of that fact, which is a much harder task. Your interpretation likely relies on a hundred assumptions and leaps of logic you've made, and getting your friends to accept those may be no easy task.
So ask yourself whether you want to convince them of the idea that oil availability is permanently dropping, or of your particular beliefs about what that will mean for society. The first of those is pretty easy - show them a few graphs of prices and rig counts - but the latter is something that will be extremely difficult to provide an evidence-based argument for.
Wow. You think it is "pretty easy" to convince someone that oil availability is permanently dropping? Just by showing a few graphs of prices and rig counts? That is a skill in rhetoric, not of any formal reasoning. I think a person equipped with such scant supporting evidence will get decimated when they get confronted by a real cornucopian.
Relative to the difficulty of convincing someone to accept my interpretation of what that implies, yes.
Compared to $10 oil in the 90s, though, $50 oil in the middle of a deep recession is a steep drop in availability. Compared to the 90s when the West had most of the world's purchasing power, booming growth in BRIC countries has raised the competition for oil substantially, and that increased competition - which decreases availability in the West - is highly likely to continue and increase.
A strong case can be made for falling availability without even touching on supply issues. However, you're probably right that talking about the near future (10-20 years, or so) is both more defensible and more appropriate than trying to convince anyone that anything is truly permanent.
Your point is a good one:
Relative price is a good way to ocmpare rate of production against rate of consumption. At maximum relative production price is likely to be lowest in real terms.
This graph is from the International Monetary Fund, 2009. I added 'Peak Oil'.
From a physical delivery standpoint, peak production was either 2005 (Simmons) or 2008.
If a late- 1990's effective peak is accurate, then current economic dislocations are more easily accounted for. The likely outcome is a continuing general decline in economic indicators with periods similar to current where a return to 'normal' economic activity appears likely.
Steve,
US per capita energy consumption peaked very close to the time frame you are pointing to. This is a graph I put together of US per capita energy consumption (including imports). I am sure it moved down in 2008, and will be down further in 2009.
The graph is based on EIA consumption data.
US per capita energy consumption peaked in 1978.