At first I thought this essay was a joke. But it seems that Jay Hansen is quite serious and quite the authoritarian fascist. I don't think I'd want to live in his world.

The difference between wants and needs is tenuous, maybe non existent in economic terms. All needs are also wants and things that didn't exist yesterday become essential today. Example: toilet paper. It didn't exist until the later nineteenth century. Would Jay want to give up toilet paper as inessential?

Global government: he says, "Mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon; a global system of coercion – laws, police, punishments and rewards." Hitler would love it. I did have the thought long ago that a global monetary system would be a good idea. A single currency would be managed by a sort of priesthood of politically isolated people. A global central bank, if you will, self regulating and self perpetuating. No other power would accrue to them except to responsibly manage the monetary system.

To answer your questions:

Capitalism. There is a difference between capitalism and free markets. Capitalism aggregates large amounts of money (capital) in order to build large projects, aided and abetted by government. Free markets are buyers and sellers in an open marketplace exchanging goods and services, hopefully with government making sure everybody plays fair. If you want to build something big then you need a mechanism to aggregate capital i.e. capitalism.

Advertising: Used to be advertising was basic information that people needed to know what they could get in the marketplace. Take a look at some early newspaper ads. Very drab listings of what somebody had to sell. A lot like Craig's list. I need to know what there is in the market. I need advertising. However I don't need TV type babble. Unfortunately I don't know how you could outlaw it in a free society. I think people become more and more hardened to it and that's why the big corporations continually escalate the hard sell. People don't ignore want ads though. They seek them out. Just where does Jay draw the line?

I can't relate to your questions 3a and b at all. They make no sense to me.

Number 4, leave resources untouched. No. But people can learn to live sustainably. Mother nature will provide the incentives.

Question 5 seems to assume that slowing consumption equals cultural decent and that speeding up consumption equals "recovery." I don't really look at it that way. I think slowing consumption offers the chance to redefine "value" and to live a better life.

This seems like a typical knee-jerk reaction to Jay's ideas. Is Jay himself an authoritarian fascist? No, he's a free-market capitalist just like you and me. He was quite a successful entrepreneur who accumulated a small fortune and retired at an early age. That's why he's had so much time to think about these matters.

The Society of Sloth is based on the ideas of King Hubbert who understood the implications of peak oil before anyone else and Garrett Hardin. What Jay was trying to do was to find a way out of this overshoot trap that is leading us directly to WW3 and a massive, horrible dieoff of humans and most other life forms.

Jay thinks about 10% of the labor force is all that's needed to produce essential goods and services like basic clothing, food, health care and yes, toilet paper. The rest could stay home and learn to cook, garden, read, play music, and practice birth control.

This was just a thought experiment and Jay doesn't think it has the slightest chance of being implemented. He is expecting a massive nuclear war in about 10 years.

"Jay thinks about 10% of the labor force is all that's needed to produce essential goods and services like basic clothing, food, health care and yes, toilet paper."

Does anyone believe this?

No - he's over-estimating by a factor of 2 :-)

Is it really going to be that easy to grow, transport, process and cook food for 7+ billion people in the post petroleum world? To supply fertilizer? Or to educate and train doctors, nurses, technologists and other medical professions? Or to supply the plastics and other materials for modern medical care, shelter and clothing?

I think Jay thought that the inhabitants (if any) of the post-petroleum world will be producing the bulk of their own food, shelter, and clothing within family units, without recourse to markets.

I don't think (from his web site's title, Dieoff.org) that Jay assumed we would have 7+ billion people in a post-petroleum world.

Actually, toilet paper is not that essential. I am in the process of weaning myself off it. It is just a heavily indoctrinated habit. With water on tap in our houses (I presume for all TOD readers, except maybe Airdale?), we really have no excuse not to simply use small cloths to wipe our butts. Wipe, immediately rinse in small bucket, put that water in the toilet, rinse again, with a little disinfectant in the water if you want, and wash hands. Using water recycled from the bath or shower of course.
Same for menstrual pads, and babies' nappies (diapers!). I have only last month broken the habit of buying disposable women's stuff, daring to question the system. But once you do it, and form your new habit, it's not that hard.

Krokodilla,

Ur right. Last time I ran out ,,,during the big ice storm, I quit buying it.

Right now I use paper towels. These are far more sturdy and,,well if one goes alternate routes then no need to digress. You learn and adapt.

There are lengths to which I have yet to go in some areas. Before long perhaps I will go back to the outside outhouse, after putting something up.

Then of course one lets the hair grow. I had to pay my own girl cousin $14 for my last haircut and that was last year and that is when I stopped going to somewhere. I just cut it myself and the beard takes care of itself after a while. Trim with scissors is all thats needed. Once you grow a beard you notice that suddenly people treat you a little different. Not good or not bad,,but just differently.

Airdale

Actually Airdale, I thought you may be one of the few of us TOD readers who is living without mains water on tap.
In Australia it is not that uncommon, people on rural "lifestyle" blocks and some of those out in the country are not on mains water, they depend on rainwater harvesting off their own roof, with several 20KL rainwater tanks, and/or water storage in dams on the property that capture the run off from their own land. But I don't know how common this is in Western countries outside of Australia, nor how many of our Australian TOD readers are off the grid in terms of water.
Living like this makes you REALLY appreciate the value of water. It also teaches you not to flush unless you have to. I have taken the next logical step, and only flush when I have to, using water caught from the bathtub, a 12L bucket poured in fast and high does the job nicely (it helps having the toilet and bucket right next the the bath!)

Anyway, I presume you are composting your used paper towels!

cheers, Soph

Yes composting everything that will compost.

I am on a very deep well. Setting in an aquifer that if went dry then the rest of the USA would long ago have ran out everywhere.

At the junctions of 4 big rivers we settle a lot of water into the aquifer. Its sand and gravel most of the way. They hit mine at 200 feet. With 50 extra to spare.

I don't worry about water too much for I would pull the pump and let a old fashioned sleeve down the hole. Get about 1 or 2 gallons that way. Enough easily for one days use. Some springs not too far off.

For all else catch water off this metal roof.

Airdale

I figured!
:-)

We're in Tasmania and off the grid for water which is true for most people around here who don't live right in a town. Even with the recent drought we've managed to avoid buying in water though it got very close as we have a veggie plot out the back. We have 60KL of main water storage and another 23KL in a fire tank. We conserve and reuse water whenever possible in the summer, catching shower water to use in the children's bath, then taking that water out to the garden, etc...Plus our house was plumbed with a separate greywater system so the rest of it goes to the natives out the front.

There's some extra work but it is a nice feeling that the water falling on your roof is not being carried away in a storm drain. That your shower water is not being piped in from a treatment plant and then carried back in a sewer pipe. Plus it makes you think a lot more about what you use to clean with, cause it's staying right there on your property! And finally, you get a whole new appreciation for the rain. Not a nuisance anymore but something to be celebrated.

I think Tassie would be one of the best places to be in the future. I am working on it... I am in Adelaide, and it's only got to get more water stressed, especially with these bloody stupid population growth policies in place!

One of my younger relatives just moved onto a rural lifestyle block, off the water grid, 2x20KL tanks... and she ran out! Had to buy 5KL, a couple of days before that big lot of rain last month. She's learnt by experience, the most effective way... Although there are some scenarios coming up in the future that I don't want to learn to manage via experience, which is why I value the OilDrum Campfire so much!

Actually the bucket and disinfectant are not required. This issue was discussed on TOD a month or so ago. All you need is a jug of water. Poor with one hand and wipe with the finger of the other hand. You only need the towel to pat yourself dry. Naturally you need to wash your toilet hand well afterwards.

I find the bucket convenient because; a) I put my used bath water in it as required; b) 12L is a good amount to flush away a poo. So the bucket doubles for damping the cloth and rinsing it.

I missed the discussion from a month ago, can you help me locate it?

Cheers, Soph

The discussion can be found here

Thanks!

Not to be disrespectful, however this I read a similar essay in college and it was first published in 1848 by Karl Marx, in Germany and was titled “The Communist Manifesto”. This is an extension or modernization of Marx’s vision for a utopian society in terms of a finite resource world.

In response to the questions:

1: No, Capitalism is still here and will be here, it will not go away without some dramatic and/or violent intervention.

2: No

3a: The same thing we have always been in competition for, our mates, you can take the chimp out of the savanna, and you can’t take the savanna out of the chimp, humans are still primate mammals and all that we know in our current system boils down to seeking/obtaining better mating prospects.

3b: Wealth could be defined by the accumulated inheritance of durable goods, those things that were bought with eMergy credits that were not consumables.

4: Define easily, there are and have never been easily available resources, technology has made resources more attainable and/or viable however obtaining resources has never been easy.

5: ? however the transition to such a societal system would be wrought with massive human suffering and conflict as any global system is bound to be met with great opposition by somebody.

In summary, my take on this essay is that this is an interesting academic idea however more a work of science fiction than a real viable plan, as for one, it does not address the details, and the devil is always in the details. For example if everyone works for 2 years, how do you decide who is a doctor with a training period of 26 years min or a farm hand with 11-12 years min. How do you address the differential in training? Is it interest based, or aptitude based, which would be better? I always wanted to be a rock star, in terms of interest, however my aptitudes have always been toward science and engineering. If a child wants to be a farm hand however clearly has a talent for science/medicine, how do you coerce him/her into becoming a doctor in a society without rewards for educational investment?

How does the “Global Government” work, who decides which scientists are in charge? What is the makeup of the global governing body; climatologists, chemists, physicists, geologists, biologists, psychologists, mathematicians, anthropologists etc.? How do they make decisions, vote? In that case you have only created a global technocratic democracy.

How do you define global mutual coercion, especially in a society without money? What do you do if a city, province, state, country, etc. isn’t towing the line or local scientists disagree with the global? Get a mob, hit everyone collectively in the offending group on the head with a stick and say “Bad”. Economic sanctions are the prevailing means of nonviolent coercion today, without money in a global society how do you coerce someone, cut off the food, water, tp perhaps? What happens when cutting off, food, water, tp etc. fails to have the effect?

This essay presents an interesting spin on “The Communist Manifesto” updated for a post industrial finite resource world. I see hints of ideas from H.G. Wells as well. It opens up interesting ideas for debate, however at best it is not anything approaching a viable plan.

But it seems that Jay Hansen is quite serious and quite the authoritarian fascist. I don't think I'd want to live in his world.

Yea, lets have a better world!

system of coercion – laws, police, punishments and rewards."

Now how is this not "Government" as is implemented today?

" Example: toilet paper. It didn't exist until the later nineteenth century. Would Jay want to give up toilet paper as inessential?"

I first encountered Jay on USENET in the 90's I have on occasion posted on Jay's sites, including the string that started this campfire. Jay lives in a place that has developed a dependance on long distance transport of goods. It once suffered a severe toilet paper shortage. Recently when he was extolling the virtues of equal allocation, I asked how many bureaucrats would be required to allocate toilet paper equally in his community and to prevent any hoarding. Needless to say it was not posted.