<Book Review: On Borrowed Time? Assessing the Threat of Mineral Depletion The Oil Drum DrumBeat: May 16, 2009>

53 comments on National Renewable Ammonia Architecture Update

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

| Show without comments | PDF version

totoneila on May 15, 2009 - 4:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Comments top

Go,go,go,SCT [Neil] & Team! I hope for dramatic progress from your efforts.

Regarding biome fertilization: this is right-down-the-alley of my Innate Territoriality and Watershed Organizational posting series.

I think it would be fabulous if your ideas and patents somehow became so affordable that turbines on the high elevations could largely be used for ammonia ferts to support massive reforestation and gradual topsoil refurbishmment--then, it is just a DOWNHILL gravity-powered run, then give a dose of N to each of the billions of newly planted tree seedlings and other needed plants to support biodiversity. Then, the only UPHILL requirement is PKS and other vital trace nutrients--massive energy savings!

When the wind blows: picture an advanced setup using a ballistic trajectory for ejecting great distances downhill lots of formed urea darts that would mostly self-bury into the downslope topsoil. Any later rain/snow inputs would help by further aiding in the topsoil dissolving process. Mountain HIGH to Valley LOW!

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
SacredCowTipper on May 15, 2009 - 7:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Given the cooling requirements for the plants I don't think you'll find them up high like that. Here's another scenario to consider.

An ethanol plant produces tremendous amounts of clean, cool carbon dioxide. If you were feeding one from biomass you could run all of the forestry equipment in an area, a colocated ammonia plant could use the carbon dioxide to make urea, and if it were a first generation plant it would have raw hydrogen available.

The raw hydrogen, in addition to being part of the ammonia feedstock, could be used to inflate dirigibles bearing urea payloads for the higher areas and with the right engines the lifting gas could be used as fuel, drawing down on lifting capability as the payload was dispensed.

We've going to be needing dirigibles anyway as we've so polluted low Earth orbit that it's going to mess our satellite systems anyway. A hydrogen lifted/hydrogen fueled dirigible fleet is in our future if we plan on maintaining our GPS/communications/etc. It's a nice synergy.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
totoneila on May 15, 2009 - 7:25pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thxs for the reply, Neil--you have obviously been doing some deep thinking on this,Kudos!

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Roger Arnold on May 16, 2009 - 2:55am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Cooling requirements? I noticed that discussed in the report. But I think it's a non-issue. Even at the levels you assume, the heat load isn't large enough that it would need to constrain plant location. Dry cooling could handle it well enough.

More fundamentally, though, if the plant uses steam electrolysis, there's essentially no heat load at all. Electrolysis is an endothermic reaction; cell efficiency will be 100%, because ohmic and polarization losses in the cell are less than the thermal energy that the reaction will soak up. Even with recuperators on the hydrogen and oxygen exhaust streams to heat the incoming steam and help boil the water, you'll end up having to add resistance heaters to maintain temperatures in the electrolysis cells!

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
SacredCowTipper on May 16, 2009 - 4:37am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

If you're using electrolysis you can figure on half a million BTUs an hour per every thousand tons the plant makes annually. That is, as I understand it, a good bit of flow when you're talking a 50k ton/year plant.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
FDDoty on May 17, 2009 - 11:55am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I'm still not convinced steam electrolysis will ever be competitive. I've had too much experience with zirconia. If anyone is aware of a substantive technical paper showiing real promise for steam electrolysis, I love to see it.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
eric blair on May 16, 2009 - 8:09pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

make urea,

Urea can drive a process to convert sand into sandstone - and perhaps even 'harder' rocks.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

53 comments on National Renewable Ammonia Architecture Update

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

| Show without comments | PDF version