128 comments on Why Oil Shortages May Cause Price Decreases, Rather than Increases
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128 comments on Why Oil Shortages May Cause Price Decreases, Rather than Increases
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GAIA Host Collective
Thanks for your ideas!
I think the effect will be continuing recession/depression, regardless of whether we have inflation or deflation.
It seems like there will be some type of change in the not too distant future that will suddenly make things worse--the temporary optimism will go away, and the fact that we cannot meet our promises will become more clear to our creditors. I don't think we can just extrapolate from where were are now.
Yes, the 'Powers That Be' have simply bought a little time ... with trillions of dollars.
Excuse me while I go outside and see if I can find some temporary optimism!
:)
Yes, nice work. We seem to have gotten two great articles for the price of one, here.
On your graph of the price of imported crude, what would you say the "economic peak" corresponds to? Is it mostly an accident of over production in the '90's? Or could that point represent peak available energy?
I was rummaging through the different peak oil websites a few months ago and came across an interveiw; I don't recall at the moment whether it was Matt Simmons or M. Hubbert ... it may have been Hubbert because he gave a lot of talks and presentations to energy company executives and engineers, particularly during the early 1970's. I recall the speaker was recollecting a conversation explaining the mechanism of peak oil to an executive; how the US oil production at the time was headed for a relentless and irreversable decline.
The executive declared this to be impossible! He pointed to the fact that the country was 'awash' in oil, that is was cheaper than it had ever been. There couldn't possibly be a decline in production. As Hubbert traveled the country - as Matt Simmons does now - explaining depletion and its effects, his listeners had never entertained the concept of general depletion. They were surprised, angry and in denial ... and these were energy company professionals!
Later on, the speaker, I actually believe it was Hubbert (I'll find it at some point) reflected that at the peak in production, oil would be most plentiful and prices would be lowest.
At that point I simply started looking at prices. The remarks made absolute, perfect sense. Conventionally, the measure of peak is a matter of physical production measured in barrels of liquid at either the wellhead, the shipping terminal or the refinery. The amounts are totaled and changes in physical production are measured against the 'Hubbert Curve'.
This is an excellent method to measure depletion. It has the benefit of removing production rates from the realm of conjecture and into that of data. It's hard to argue against physics. The 'bottom line' of peak production is rate of change; actual physical decline. A problem with measuring physical production is the demand dynamic is in the background. In the ambit of physical production, oil out of the ground will be used eventually. Demand doesn't effect production unless if declines to where it constrains that production - that is producers choose to leave oil in the ground because they cannot sell it. (NOTE: The opposite dynamic is also true!)
From the physical standpoint demand is static. A barrel produced will be consumed. Consumption makes use of all production. Storage relative to the production stream is small. Consumers can buy some oil and set it aside, but eventually all oil becomes atmospheric waste.
Market price measures the dynamic relationship of supply to consumption. The aim is to locate a change in trend, where the supply - demand dynamic changes from favoring the consumer to favoring the producer. In the market the intensity of demand is measurable. Consumption is auctioned. Marginal utility allows for consumers to bid prices higher than physical fundamentals might otherwise indicate. Markets calculate many sets of conditions. The price falls if the rate of consumption falls faster than the rate of supply, even if that rate is also falling. If the rate of production increases and exceeds the rate of consumption - even if the consumption rate is increasing - the price still falls. When the consumption rate rises faster than the rate of supply - even if the rate of supply is rising - the price rises. If supply declines and demand is steady or that rate falls slower than the decline of production, the price will also rise. The first set of conditions favors the consumer, the second set favors the producer.
Since every barrel of oil is bought and sold the price is an a accurate measure of the dynamic supply - demand relationship.
The rate of supply was very great and increasing relative to the (increasing) rate of consumption from 1985 until the late 1990's, During that period the the price declined. Afterwards, the rate of consumption increased faster than the rate of (increasing) production. Prices were bid higher. The 'inflection point' - where prices declined to the lowest point and then rose - was Economic Peak Oil, where supply was greatest relative to damand as measured in money within the marketplace. Prior to that point prices favored consumers, after that point prices favored producers.
The production rate exceeding the rate of consumption required a very low price to 'clear the market' Increased demand relative to increasing supply was reflected in steadily increasing prices. The price trend was exactly the same as if physical production declined!
Within the dynamic supply-demand relationship it does not matter if supply increases. Prices will increase if demand increases faster.
Many experts including Hubbert himself have stated that the real peak could only be determined long after the fact. As seen through the prism of price the largest supply relative to demand was at the end of 1998 until the first months of 1999. To my mind, this was 'peak oil'. From that point forward up until this minute the rate of consumption has outstripped to the rate of production allowing demand to bid up the price of relatively diminishing supply. The plentiful oil of 1998 and the cheap price of 25 cents a gallon of crude is likely never to be seen again. In this context, it doens't matter whether physical production increases of decreases; it's irrelevant. What matters is that consumption has unbalanced the pricing mechanism and tilted it in favor of production.
At the end of 2008 with prices plummeting and the overhang of 80 millions bpd of production overhanging the market, prior to any OPEC production cuts ... with the possible price of $5 a barrel looming over the horizon ... the price never fell below the longer termed trend line! The support level held; at $35 a barrel. Compared to prices of $11 a barrel ten years previous, the difference is a 3X increase! Now, prices have almost doubled again from that level.
A couple of things to consider ...
Peak Oil to the man in the street is a matter of price. The economic measure is more useful to people than is physical production. One person cannot grasp world fuel production, it's an abstract. Physical depletion is simply too big and too complex - and awful - to easily grasp. Even professionals have difficulties with the concept, as Hubbert and Simmons can both attest.
Consideration must be given to the state of production and demand. Both must be mature, that is supply and demand at high rates without distractions in the marketplace such as wars, embargoes or financial bubbles. Measuring supply v. demand by dollars in 1968 would have been pointless since US production was peaking and world demand was slight. During the period 1985 - 2002 there were few disruptions other than Saddam's adventure in Kuwait. both production and demand worldwide were mature and huge. Production levels were similar to those current; the interening years have not brought to light exponential increases in available oil. There are no new 'Super- giant' oil fields to replace those now producing in Saudi Arabia and Mexico.
Peak oil taking place in the past explains a lot of current problems and government strategies. Peak oil means basic, energy intensive manufacturing becomes less profitable over time. Better to send it to China and let them attempt to make use of it with cheaper labor ... or fail. Peak oil means that abstract speculation in financial securities - rather than making things in factories - is the only way for America to grow at a rate that allows our current standard of living. Under the circumstances, supporting finance and credit becomes a life or death political issue. Many of the credit and business disruptions of the past two years (and the follies leading up to them) are reasonable in a post- peak context.
Ten years into Peak Oil also explains the frenzy of capitalists worldwide to 'cash out'. Forward looking investors cannot afford to wait until the very end ... when bits and pieces of the current status quo will be worthless? What use is a private jet when fuel cannot be found for it? May as well ditch in now when it can gain a good price than wait. The manipulations taking place on Wall Street and other markets reflect this acknowledgement. Traders might not articulate the idea that 'Peak Oil happened at the end of the 1990's' but they can trade it and rationalize, later.
Ten years post- peak also means that time is running short (if it hasn't run out already). Exponential demand growth will consume remaining - harder to get - fuels in a staggeringly short time. In five years the full weight of out and out permanent shortages will fall with smashing weight upon the world's industrial economies. There is not sufficient time remaining to deploy the reactors, windmills, solar cells or electric cars ... particularly when there is no urgency to effect the change. The task is to replace the built world ... constructed over the past 60 years.
Unbelievable!
I like the idea that the peak in availability of oil occurred when the price was lowest, back in the late 1990s.
Now, with all of these funny interactions going on, the price situation is very confusing for the lay person. Certainly there can't be any problem. Prices are relatively low.
I am not sure that it is possible to replace the built world, with declining energy supplies. I wish someone would come up with a model comparing the amount of available energy prospectively, and how much of this energy would be required for replacing built infrastructure. Of course some of the energy is solar and wind, and continues to be added to earth's resources--but the infrastructure to capture it has to be manufactured has to be manufactured, and provides limits on the amount available to society.
I'll find that interview. It might even be over here, somewhere.
The problem with replacing the built world is there is no consensus about how world should be. There are lots of tentative inquiries which are steps in the right direction. I tell people they hae to figure out how to live in the nineteenth century otherwise they will wind up in the fourteenth century!
I like peak availability. It's like my chlid! The big complaint I have with it in the 1990's means the time to effectively act is past - the opportunity to take appropriate action 'come and gone' before anyone noticed there was a problem! This indicates another level of problem or 'Probleme' (for problem and meme) beyond the level of the 'Wicked Problem'. to that of the 'Hyper- wicked Problem'.
A Hyper- wicked problem is one whose existence isn't even discovered until after the opportunity to address it has passed. This kind of hyper- wicked problems are wrapped in existential paradoxes ... like the discussion I had here a little with aangel about the oil price level that would finance new production or energy alternatives being far above the price level that causes fatal destruction to the economy itself. I suspect a lot of these kinds of 'Problemes' will be turning up like bad pennies in the very near future.
There is no rule book for the situation we find ourselves in right now, frankly.
Oil needs to be used to manage the transition and keep people fed. Another problem is 'ramping up' alternatives is more energy wasteful with the goal or intent of increased alternatives not guaranteed. Throwing money (energy) at fusion or hydrogen - for instance - or at wave power might not return anything on the investments and the time and invested energy would be lost. This is itself another wicked problem, as the risk attached to an investment might be greater than any return yet discovering this requires the investment. This gears into your remark about replacing infrastucture.
I think your question could be better answered if people had a more comprehensive collection of skills. Creative skills are a good substitute for the brute force and mechanical leverage of cheap energy. Having gone in the one direction, it's been easy to unlearn the skills needed to go the other direction. This makes creating your model very difficult. People can grasp the need but cannot calculate the next step ...
This is all very interesting stuff -but possibly not the general thought of concept of "Peak Oil" (which I assume most people take to mean the point of maximum production). Your explanation of Economic Peak -if I am correct- is the point at which additional incremental barrel costs beging their inevitable rise after years of decline. And this occured at the end of the 90s. Very interesting.
It would also explain the rise in commodity prices since then... Any comments on the interelationship between Commodities and Oil 'PEPO' (Post Economic PO)
Nick.
"I wish someone would come up with a model comparing the amount of available energy prospectively"
Shortonoil over at the PO forums has an energy availability model according to which we are now at about 12% (as I recall) of remaining energy out of the original total of available recoverable energy we started with. This is a pretty grim picture of where we are, even for people used to the grimness of peak oil.
I don't think there is any remote posibility of "replacing built infrastructure." We will be learning to live (and die) without a lot of things we took for granted. Presumably the energy required to replace the built infrastructure would be comprable to the amount needed to build it in the first place. And if shortonoil is right, it presumably took much of the 88% of originally available energy we have used so far to build it.
Not bloody likely that we can do the same job with the 12% we have left.
Perfect post Steve !
Gail I actually don't see this in the short term believe it or not I think we have a year or two where we deal with our current bogey men.
With this said I'd not be surprised to see Goldman Sachs take over a major bank my best guess is BofA. And I think this will the start of consolidation and break up of some banks.
This Stress test was a game and the Banks actually failed they declared themselves solvent and now the Government is in a position to start nationalizing "a few bad apples".
I think Citi will also be broken up before finally swallowed. The real winner banks GS and MS will slowly digest their kill.
But this won't be seen as a bad thing but a return to stability and the market will respond positively to this. And technically it is positive. Eliminating BofA will send a message that the US is cleaning up its house and you can trust it.
Beyond this we will simply be dealing with falling home values steady credit defaults and high unemployment. CRE will of course start failing in a big way but its more of the same.
In a weird kind of way our economy has already adjusted to this we have already absorbed most of the economic fallout. Not that there is not a lot more to absorb but by simply being more of the same it won't have a jarring economic effect.
Even if oil hits 150 or 200 people will think its just another temporary spike.
I believe we will sort of muddle through like this for 1-2 years. I think that the monetary inflation will send oil price to the 200 mark but I think that people initially won't care.
Now depending on when prices cross 150 a barrel to new highs at that point if they remain over 150 for a year then and only then will this muddle along situation start to break down.
We are in a lot of ways entering what you can think of as the python squeezing stage where the economy continues to function it just gets squeezed.
I think that bottom calling and green shoots will be present this year and next. Obviously companies that have cut to the bone and finally been forced to actually try and operate efficiently will probably be able to turn out small profits even with rising energy prices.
On this blog we often discuss the energy waste in the system but the structural waste in most companies is orders of magnitude worse. We have plenty of room to streamline business practices. Those that do will survive those that don't will die.
And of course we have at least 20 years of inflation induced equity gains in the housing market that can be rolled back.
So I just overall see this literally taking time to happen at at every step of the way from now on out people will be calling a bottom ever more stridently.
Now I think we will have more regional Detroits obviously most of the rest of the cities that are into auto manufacturing are joining Detroit in becoming dysfunctional. But these will be dismissed. I think for example Oregon will get hammered. But these will be seen as regional issues or industrial shifts not as the start of a widespread collapse. And I think we probably will see riots in at least one major US city over the next two years.
Not until 2011 will these regional collapses begin to spread and expand into social collapse.
I'm guessing that we will end 2009 with unemployment at 12% and oil over 100. 2010 will I think see oil go over 200 and unemployment inch up to 14% or even decline back to 10% but with more and more Americans taking any job they can get so underemployment will be huge.
Only in 2011 when the collapse of housing markets becomes effectively national and its obvious that things are getting worse will wide social disturbances become a problem.
Also I think that cities and states will hold out through most of 2009 and into 2010 before finally seriously cutting spending. The problem of course is its too little and to late and of course they will probably drastically cut police forces to scare the tax payers. Well this will begin to backfire in 2011 when cities find they are calling in the National Guard to deal with civil disturbances. And this scenario could easily take longer than this we could sort of stabilize in 2010-2011 and then finally fall apart in 2012-2013.
Its just going to take time for the structural failures to build up and finally collapse this is not a fast process. We still have a long way to fall before the system finally begins to break down for real. And I really don't see that the forces driving the situation are any different from today its just more of the same just a bit worse month by month and year by year.
And yes once oil prices are sky high for some time we will see energy conservation start and a belated attempt to deal with the energy crisis but all this will do is work to slow the collapse rate say for a year or two.
The problem is by the time we finally decide to change the social network will be to far gone to prevent widespread collapse. Still its simply going to take time. A lot has to happen and most of the forces are slow. Real Estate is intrinsically illiquid so it takes time to collapse. The continued support for the banking system will ensure it fails slowly.
Rising energy costs will be seen as temporary. Socially we will hold out for hope far longer than we should. But because the system will last longer than it probably technically should when it finally does crumble I think we will find that it had truly become a house of cards and topples easily.
So in a sense I disagree I think we can indeed extrapolate where we are today out for at least two if not four years. However in doing so it ensures that when what your saying finally does happen it will be decisive our creditors will not just turn away but flee.
In a sense you could even see that we are given one last chance to change. And I of course believe we simply won't but will try to get back the old ways and fail. So in this sense only after America's attempt at recovery has obviously failed will we finally see the current system break down. Until we have tried to recover and then failed the world will be willing to give us a chance.
I think the next two years will see on fake recovery after another and only near the end will the confidence really be lost.
Memmel
I could not agree more with your predictions for the near term future. We have simply left it too late to make any significant changes to the energy depleted world we face.
I have recently undertaken an exercise in forecasting the conversion of the Australian economy onto a completly renewable base. The figures are sobering to say the least. It works out to be around 370% of GDP. I don't imagine that the US numbers would be greatly different.
Making a sizable dent in this is just not possible while we continue with a paradigm of exponential growth and BAU. The probable scenario of rapid, cyclical oil price spikes followed by crashes will further discourage private investment in alternatives. Governments will continue to use the funds they can either borrow or print to try to prop up the financial sector because of both, the influence from this sector and the fact that it now represents the largest employer in most western economies. It is a bit hard to see any path forward without there first being a major social discontinuity.
370% of GDP! That is amazing.
It sounds like a discussion of that calculation would make an interesting post. Write to me if you are interested at GailTverberg at comcast dot net.