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154 comments on DrumBeat: May 21, 2009

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sendoilplease on May 21, 2009 - 9:23am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

That makes sense. Morals, ethics, principles etc are luxuries we can afford during times of plenty.

I wonder when/if slavery will make a comeback in the US (or in some former states of the future, defunct US of A)?

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Nowhere on May 21, 2009 - 11:06am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Nothing to do with morals or ethics. I was pointing out that priorities and decisions change based on needs. There is nothing wrong with cutting a tree as long as you have one to cut that you own. When you need something to survive, it becomes less sacred.....
This is not a joyful situation, but a change in policy will be required for people to survive in California.

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tommyvee on May 21, 2009 - 12:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

There is nothing wrong with cutting a tree as long as you have one to cut that you own.

According to this philosophy, cutting down the last tree on Easter Island was OK, as long as the tree-cutter was the owner? Maybe the complete deforestation of Easter Island points out a slight shortcoming in the real-world consequences of this belief system?

But it is a nice summation of the Bush/Cheney world view. What happens to future generations and the public at large is immaterial as long as sacred property rights are honored.

Maybe the change in policy that California requires includes giving up on immature and short-sighted "tax rebellions" such as Proposition 13. California has plenty of wealth to meet its' public funding needs, but stupid policies, especially right-wing initiatives such as Prop 13, have crippled state government. Once again, the right wing cripples government and then screams that "government does not work" in a head-in-the-sand self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Black_Dog on May 21, 2009 - 12:55pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The notion that Easter Island died due to the cutting of the trees is only partially correct. According to Jared Diamond, the problem was more subtle than that. Somewhere along the way, the islanders brought rats onto the island and the rats liked to eat the nuts from the main tree species on the island. As a result, the rats eventually grew into a population such that no new trees could grow back, once cut down. Even if the islanders had not cut a single tree, once the rats arrived, the trees were going to disappear as they lived out their life cycles and no young were able grow and replace them. Cutting the trees only sped up the process.

As for Prop 13, I'm one of the casualties as I had applied for a job with the State, meeting all the requirements, and after Prop 13 the hiring freeze killed the job. So much for a shot at a career and a "normal" life. I've experienced mostly unemployment since then...

E. Swanson

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jokuhl on May 21, 2009 - 3:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

That sounds like a convenient escape clause for the Lumberers. I have to wonder if these people weren't also killing off those animals that might have thrived as the predators to the juicy Rat Population.

We have a definite knack for throwing natural systems out of whack. Maybe it's our ability to envision 'un-natural' things. Deforestation also did in the people up on the fertile plains of Mesa Verde, so I've heard.. the soils wore out, water tables evaporated and the erosion capped it all off. And the people left.

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PaulS on May 22, 2009 - 1:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Why would there have been predators of rats? It was maybe the most isolated ecosystem on the planet, and a very tiny one at that. There were no rats for any such predators to co-evolve with.

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Nowhere on May 21, 2009 - 1:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Exactly, the people of California will soon become like Easter Island. There are too many people and not enough resources. They talk of conservation, but when it comes down to survival, all bets are off. When we have to make the choice to cut the tree or watch another starve, the tree loses the bet. State gov't wastes more money than any other business. Corruption abounds and taxes do not go to support the services needed by the citizens.

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jokuhl on May 21, 2009 - 3:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You still have a way of vastly oversimplifying the equation, though.

It's more like 'Killing the goose that laid the golden eggs'.. That metaphorical Tree may also be what you need alive, to stay alive. Some people will go 'Drill, Cut and Burn'.. but not everyone is so shortsighted, even in a severe crisis.

I'll try to do a web-search to see how many people have given their lives for their kid or their town or a principle. There are Black Swans, and also White Swans..

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Durandal on May 21, 2009 - 12:35pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Slavery still exists in the US, it has simply changed form. Slaves to the debt based society. You must work to repay your creditors who own your hind quarters. Pay up, or we will take your home.

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pihwht on May 21, 2009 - 3:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Don't forget prison labor.

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154 comments on DrumBeat: May 21, 2009

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