For example, we use taxes to punish behavior and expect people to get the message( they never do).

How do you mean? People do respond quite well to economic incentives.

I don't believe that high taxes on addictive tobacco or oil will impact be as effective in reducing demand as directly reducing( by education and lifestyle changes) the need for it with energy efficient cars.

How strange. Despite the effect the recent spike in oil prices had on efficiency of new cars? Despite the European example? Well, good luck to you with the soft paternalism of "education".

The reason politicians like taxes is because it raises money 'for the people's own good' while lining their pockets( see..it's win-win)!.

Have the politicians lower other taxes with the same amount. It's up to you, the people.

As the Ayres article pointed out higher demand will lead to....higher prices! So it's in nobody's( of TPTB) interest to simply reduce demand!

Because all politicians are bought by the Big Oil?

Market theory doesn't believe in lifestyle changes(unnecessary..just let the system of supply and demand work its miracles!).

With punitive prices, demand diminishes and lifestyle changes are accomplished.

How strange. Despite the effect the recent spike in oil prices had on efficiency of new cars? Despite the European example? Well, good luck to you with the soft paternalism of "education".

I would change 'lifestyle' by directly limiting consumer choice. Nobody has a 'right' to the mistake of buying an inefficient car. It impacts society at large.

The Europeans pay a lot in taxes for passenger cars that get average of 44 mpg which is a gain of 20% over the last 30 years. This is not tremendous progress. Instead it shows that under the heaviest taxes the economic impetus to improve efficiency is weak at best.

Now sure, it may be easier for the Europeans to do this. The continent is more densely populated, and development has historically been more clustered in towns. Public transport is undeniably better. But whether this is a result of their high taxes is debatable.

Schipper said the European gas taxes were instituted in the 1920's, primarily as a luxury tax on automobiles, which were then mostly toys for the rich.

The relatively vast network of rail lines were already laid, and gasoline tax revenue was directed to general state coffers. Even today, gas taxes go to the state's general budget and are not specifically marked for mass transit or other environmental projects.

Still, he believes the high taxes have encouraged people to live closer to city centers and to buy cars that get better mileage.

"If gasoline was always expensive, you have to conclude that some of that had an impact," he said. "What Europe realized is they could steer consumption, not just raise money."

Others aren't so convinced.

Denny Ellerman, a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, also noted that the rail lines were already built before the gas tax. He also pointed to the terrible auto congestion in cities like London and Paris, and that Europeans don't appear to be deterred from heading out to the suburbs, which require a longer commute.

Ellerman said urban sprawl, while not matching the extent of the U.S., is increasing. He said it has yet to reach American levels - not because of higher fuel prices- but due mainly to higher land prices and lower income.

As far as instituting a bigger gas tax in this country goes, he wasn't for it.

He said most everyone has to use gas, and taxing it would hit the poor the hardest.

Ellerman also thought there were too many other variables for a gas tax to result in lower wholesale prices. Supplier nations like OPEC could simply cut production, or other nations could take advantage of falling demand and prices in the U.S. to use more themselves.

So could a gas tax result in lower wholesale prices and the resulting transfer in money to the government from oil companies? "That's absolutely fantastic thinking," he said.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/21/news/international/europe_gas/index.htm

Have the politicians lower other taxes with the same amount. It's up to you, the people.

Shirley, you must be joking.

Because all politicians are bought by the Big Oil?

THEY don't need to buy ALL of them.
Maybe some of them are too stupid to demand bribes/campaign contributions(yeah, right).

With punitive prices, demand diminishes and lifestyle changes are accomplished.

You have a libertarian perspective: miraculous but simplistic laws of supply and demand ruling human behavior.

I can see why you can believe in unlimited atomic power.

I would change 'lifestyle' by directly limiting consumer choice. Nobody has a 'right' to the mistake of buying an inefficient car. It impacts society at large.

That thought doesn't scale.

The Europeans pay a lot in taxes for passenger cars that get average of 44 mpg which is a gain of 20% over the last 30 years. This is not tremendous progress.

Average mpg is just one adaptation. Denser cities, better public transport and moving closer to work are others.

Shirley, you must be joking.

No, I actually believe you live in a democracy.

You have a libertarian perspective: miraculous but simplistic laws of supply and demand ruling human behavior.

I do have a libertarian perspective, yes. The rest is just your attempt to discredit it. As I said, that economic incentives does shape behaviour to a large extent is obvious.

I can see why you can believe in unlimited atomic power.

Believe? I simply know it is a technical possibility and currently the only way with which we could replace fossils. But perhaps something else will appear before we start to ramp down fossil use.

Actually, raising the cigarette tax (that was a comparison you made somewhat earlier in the thread) does impact smoking behavior (http://www.pnmj.org/03052005_cigarette_tex.asp).

The effect of a tax on gas guzzlers, and not SUVs is complicated, and different because cigarettes you have to buy frequently, and that is not true of cars, plus as a majority of people buy cars on credit, a small tax is hard to detect in the monthly payment.

Taxing gasoline, on the other hand, may share some of the characteristics of taxing cigarettes. I am no libertarian, and no authoritarian, but at this point in the ACC game, I say, do it all! Tax the cars, the drivers, the roads, the gasoline, the environmental destruction and the carbon emissions. (I must have left some out). Then mandate fuel efficiency and ration the fuel.

No doubt some people were priced out of the cigarette market by high taxes but I think it was mainly thru the really heavy social pressure and the defeat of the tobacco company deniers.

The UK smoking ban will cause an estimated 400000 people to quit smoking.

Jean King, its director of tobacco control, said: "The results show smoke-free laws have encouraged smokers to quit.

"These laws are saving lives and we mustn't forget that half of all smokers die from tobacco-related illness."

A separate survey, carried out by the British Lung Foundation, of more than 1,000 people with lung conditions, found that 56% said they have had fewer attacks of breathlessness from passive smoking in pubs and restaurants since the smoking ban was introduced.

Nearly two fifths (39%) said the ban had helped keep them out of hospital.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7480856.stm

It actually is rather idiotic to think that people would be really motivated to quit by an increase in the tax on a highly addictive, poisonous product like tobacco.

Based on smokers I've known, the social pressure of smoking outside, medical information and now smoking being banned in bars is decisive.

But the idea of taxes as a way to regulate behavior is mainly a disguise for raising money for the government.

Hi Majorian, I think your peer pressure idea has merit. One idea relying on such pressure would be to require a large 4"x4" sticker with the EPA MPG of a vehicle on vehicle registration plates. That alone would cause some (not all of course) to stop and think of the impact of efficiency choices. I am not saying this should/shouldn't be done. Just throwing it out there as a suggestion to test its merits.

That would probably annoy 4x4 drivers more than making them think about their consumption. A better way may be to require expensive commercial registrations for all light trucks and maybe offset it with a tax credit for documented business use (cargo or multi-passenger use only). Even that would be pretty unwieldy in practice, but it would make people think about their choice of driving an off-road truck as a private passenger vehicle. Boaters and off-road enthusiasts would be screwed, but that's the price of a "lifestyle choice".

After I typed the previous comment I forgot to clarify I meant 4 inch by 4 inch sticker. I belatedly realised that many outside the US call SUVs 4x4s.

That's funny. They were called 4x4s in the US too, but the marketers needed a new name that sounded less truckish and more appealing to soccer moms. I remember when they first started using sport utility vehicle in the early to mid 90's and it sounded very awkward.

It actually is rather idiotic to think that people would be really motivated to quit by an increase in the tax on a highly addictive, poisonous product like tobacco.

Yeah, the guys who think scientific studies have something to say about this are real idiots. Some excerpts:

Well over 100 published studies estimating the impact of price on cigarette smoking have been conducted by economists and other researchers.5, 9, 10 These studies apply econometric and other statistical methods to a variety of aggregated and individual level data from numerous countries, states, and other areas. These studies clearly demonstrate that changes in cigarette prices, resulting from changes in cigarette taxes, manufacturers' prices, and/or other factors, lead to changes in cigarette smoking.

most of the estimates from the USA and other high income countries tend to fall in the relatively narrow range from -0.25 to -0.50. This implies that if cigarette prices rise by 10%, overall cigarette smoking will fall by between 2.5 and 5%.

Moreover, a number of recent studies conclude that youth smoking is relatively more sensitive to price than adult smoking, with some estimates implying that teen smoking is up to three times more sensitive to price than adult smoking.

Estimates from econometric models that account for the addictiveness of smoking imply that the long run impact of price on smoking is about double the short run impact.

But the idea of taxes as a way to regulate behavior is mainly a disguise for raising money for the government.

And the reason I advocate such taxes in some cases is due to me wanting the government to have more money? No, you are simply wrong.

And BTW, what's wrong with the government having at least enough money to balance its budget? As long as you insist on electing governments who will pitch trillions of dollars at every problem going and start wars costing further trillions paid from "off-budget accounts", then you either need to raise taxes or declare bancrupcy very shortly. One or the other, no alternate choices!

"And the reason I advocate such taxes in some cases is due to me wanting the government to have more money? No, you are simply wrong."

Disagree! follow the money, its all about the money, the govt (state and fed) have computer models showing a tax increase will result in less consumption, thus resulting in less money received via tax. That money will be collected somewhere else, wether its a soda tax or a fast food tax, pet tax, mileage tax, hours spent watching TV tax, or even a TV tax, (like in the UK), water hose tax the list goes on about how stupid the taxes can get, but somehow and someway, the govt will find a way to tax us to pay for things the govt deems we need and don't need.
If everyone quit smoking, all money received would be ceased. Govt relies on money to exist. Partially true on changing behaviour, but its really all about the money. If the govt was concerned about your and mine health they would ban tobacco, ban alcohol, red meat consumption etc. Bottom line the govt could care less about our health, the govt just wants our money. Because they think they know better on how to spend it.

There is talk in Texas about installing flow meters on private owned water wells to charge a TAX on your usage from your own private water well.

I just saw the video from IOUSATHEMOVIE.COM and basically if the govt stopped all fraud and waste spending, quit spending on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan the federal debt would be reduced by less than 3%!

I don't have the answers, but a tobacco tax will not solve world problems, only make the world population continue to increase, which further exacerbate the worlds problems. As the people of the world will continue to propigate and use resources which are finite. which are the unintended concequences! more people in the world using more resources. just freaking lovely isn't it?

the govt (state and fed) have computer models showing a tax increase will result in less consumption, thus resulting in less money received via tax.

I quoted research that said 10% increased tobacco price means 2.5-5% less consumption, so a tax hike would clearly increase revenue. We are not past the maximum of the Laffer curve.

Partially true on changing behaviour, but its really all about the money. If the govt was concerned about your and mine health they would ban tobacco, ban alcohol, red meat consumption etc.

False - they can't ban that stuff, since they would be voted out of office. But they might be able to increase the paternalism gradually with taxes. Actually, after tobacco smoking has been slowly decreased by taxing the stuff, a number of European governments have lately been able to ban smoking in restaurants, pubs and other public places.

Bottom line the govt could care less about our health, the govt just wants our money.

So, the politicians who advocate tobacco taxes does it to get money to spend, not out of health concerns. And you know they are lying how, exactly?

but a tobacco tax will not solve world problems, only make the world population continue to increase, which further exacerbate the worlds problems.

It gets a little scary when you doomsters say cancer should be embraced as a solution to resource problems you see in your crystal balls.

Less poverty, longer lives and more urbanisation means lower nativity rates. Growth, health, education and technology is the way forward.

thank you for your reply, but i am not convinced the govt is here to help. reason being is: have you looked around at the people of this country? fat and/or obese is becoming the norm. I blame diet and exercise, but really i blame corn. high fructose corn syrup. "hfcs"
its in most any packaged food and soft drink we consume.

"kingcorn.net" shows a video on the stuff. sometimes on PBS. a little dry at first but once you get into it, it explains how corn has contributed to our weight problems.

nobody wants to die, but it will happen regardless. like the song says " everybody want wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants o go right now"

world population has more than doubled since 1960. where it was once 3 billion people, it's now at 6.7 billion people.
do the math, finite resources and increasing population. it's a no brainer.