<DrumBeat: May 27, 2009 The Oil Drum The Oil Drum BookCollage -#2 of 3 - "Human Capital", How-to Books, etc.>

185 comments on Financial Collapse and Energy - Something Other than a NINJA Problem

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oldfarmermac on May 27, 2009 - 1:51pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Gail,these comments could have been written by a farmer as a cautionary tale for those who want to believe that getting back to the land is a realistic goal-ESPECIALLY those who get thier info from pollyanna websites and think that we can produce like Chinese and Korean peasants ,evidently,just because we are Yankees.

We lost our peaches and nearly all of our apples to a late frost this year.We lost our cherries over the last three days due to unusually heavy rains.They just kept swelling up until they burst,less than two weeks before the harvest would have started.

And we live in an area long noted as exceptionally well suited to these crops.We are fortunately diversified in a way not possible on a very small acreage,and we will not lose everything-at least we never have.

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Gail the Actuary on May 27, 2009 - 2:57pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Buying a farm now could easily turn into a disaster, especially for those of use who have little idea what would be needed to actually produce food in adequate quantity to feed a family and store if for winter months. The more I think about the problems, the more I admire our ancestors and their ability to get along without fossil fuels.

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porge on May 27, 2009 - 3:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I have always been of the opinion that the minds of the past were better than of the present..............they had to be.

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Cold Camel on May 27, 2009 - 9:50pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Not buying a farm is higher risk. If food is short, any additional food is a direct benefit. In addition, I have not materially impacted my fitness. Productive land is a hedge. My venture may fail, but my odds increase.

Gail, don't take this personally, but your logic sounds to me like an excuse. Inaction is a valid option if the benefits outweigh the liabilities. In your case this may be true, but bashing farming is illogical. How is your food supply more secure in a city full of strangers?

My guess is that you judge the marginal increased fitness of farming as insufficient. I agree, but all other options I can find are worse.

Cold Camel

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pi on May 28, 2009 - 12:53am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It is interesting for me to find this debate here since I've gone over this territory with my husband now for a few years (with me arguing for a farm and he, a person who really dislikes dirt, arguing against).

I think it's worth examining his point. My husband argues that you don't need to run to a farm for cover. What you want to do is always have what other people will pay for. Maybe you have some doctoring skills or maybe you can sell things or maybe you can write or teach or design or sing......whatever. The point is to spot where you can compete using your talents and then throw yourself into this wholeheartedly. If the market changes you have to be quick to adapt, but if you are good then you may be able to compete well.

There will always be an elite (non-producers) and my husband's idea is to be included among them as they "circulate" (Pareto's term) since he hates anything that involves lifting a shovel. I think he'd rather be a really starving used book dealer than a well-fed farmer.

The governments of the world are trying to slow down the collapse process as much as they can in order to 1) avoid chaos and panic and 2) give the elites a chance to "circulate" naturally in a new lower energy based society. When I say elites I mean all non-producers, that is shopkeepers, librarians, teachers, office workers, etc. Almost all of us are elites these days.

I personally can understand both positions: the escape to the farm or the desire to stay and fight for ones position.

If you love working the land and love animals then the farm is for you!

But if you really hate that life, it might be a bad choice.

BTW: To read more about medieval Spain and moneylending try a great novel CATHEDRAL OF THE SEA by Ildefonso Falcones. The author is a lawyer who uses his vast knowledge of legal (and other) history to portray Barcelona and its surrounding area in the 1300s. For those who are PO aware (I think Falcones may be) this novel is a special TREAT because these old laws are so often concerned with food (energy) through the use of land for grazing etc. There is so much intricate knowledge of money, foreign currency trading, land use, grain markets, etc displayed (but in a fun way) that I promise you will be vastly entertained. Also of course there is a lot of horror--the prejudice against Jews and the Spanish Inquistion (does local have to mean narrow-minded? Isn't there another way?) the cruelty of the feudal lord (must they be so nasty or did being nice mean being weak?)...

The whole novel is a picture of what it means to compete in a city (where you obviously can't be a farmer for lack of land). The hero, Arnau, manages to succeed but there is a lot of luck involved so I don't know how realistic this is.

Forget your PO worries and get totally into this novel where someone else's PRE-OIL worries will provide great vicarious thrills and food for thought!

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step back on May 28, 2009 - 7:48am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I too am currently reading a book about cathedrals and medieval times. It's called Pillars of the Earth. At each turn in the book it becomes painfully obvious how oil has dramatically changed our way of life.

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Cold Camel on May 29, 2009 - 4:55pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I think you are married to my brother.

My perspective, that if I can't sell it, I can eat it, comes from my grandfather, but your (husband's) arguements are certainly valid, as is your conclusion that if you don't like dirt, don't become a farmer.

The challenge for all of us is to be quick on our toes, farmer or not. Market conditions can render the best plans invalid. I recommend "Farmer Boy" from the "Little House on the Prairie" series as an example of the random nature of profits. That book paints a positive picture of farming, the rest of the series portrays a more realistic and negative view. The key is never to be left redundant.

I have lots of potential routes to take with my land, none of which are currently economically viable. The same is true for your husband's plan, his out of the mainstream lifestyle isn't economically viable, so really, we're both full of it. Ah, well, back to the grindstone.

Cold Camel

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Cold Camel on May 27, 2009 - 10:06pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You are right, oldfarmer, and your comments appreciated. But we don't have any other options that are more appealing. A little food is better than no food. I'd rather be puttering around on dirt than rioting on the streets because the stores were empty.

Cold Camel

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Grautr on May 28, 2009 - 8:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I remember watching a program some time back about a town in the US where they had a plaque dedicated to a local farmer who was long dead. The reason he got the plaque was one year all the crops failed in the local area except on his farm (something to do with his elevation above sea level was mentioned) and what he produced was enough to keep the town from starving till the next spring.

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porge on May 28, 2009 - 9:06am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The next Hero might be the past hero.

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phil harris on May 28, 2009 - 7:22am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Well said oldfarmermac.
I do not live in USA but exhausted soils was fairly typical for US up to middle of 20thC until farming found the industrial alternatives. Jackman and Long, 1964, in The Oregon Desert, give a sympathetic and entertaining account of the brief 'homesteading' boom in that part of the country during the first years of the last century. Teachers, clerks, fit young folk, found, alongside some personal tragedies, some good romance and socializing and played some good baseball apparently, and I guess the kids had memorable childhoods, but there is hardly a trace left in the ground.
I guess the Chinese and Korean peasants will still be around. Even they are not self-sufficient and need these days some industrial N fertilizer and sufficient regional/system 'insurance' against inevitable local failures. March larger regional system adjustment is required to deal with issues of water or other long term declines.
Having said that, maximising suburban or urban gardening can ensure some healthy nutrition and an attractive environment.

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Thaicoon on June 2, 2009 - 12:18am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hi Phil. I wouldn't underestimate the Chinese. They have a command and control society, a largely rural population, and a history of cultivation that goes back before the Europeans were plundering and pillaging each other,

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185 comments on Financial Collapse and Energy - Something Other than a NINJA Problem

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