Let's start the day with a question: if you find something, is it really undiscovered? Or, if something is undiscovered, have you really found anything?

In new findings, the U.S. Geological Survey estimates the Arctic may be home to 30 percent of the planet's undiscovered natural gas reserves and 13 percent of its undiscovered oil.

[Addendum]

It's also unclear what the "twice as much" refers to.

"Based on our study, there are 40 [billion] to 160 billion barrels of oil north of the Arctic Circle," said Gautier. The USGS had previously estimated the Arctic is home to 90 billion barrels of oil.

I guess 160 is "almost" twice 90, but those 90 are also "undiscovered". But 40 is less than half of 90, so the headline could have said "less than half of that found previously".

GW Bush: "The Math doesn't work!"

Yeah, that is a bit of a humdinger. "Arctic believed to hold perhaps twice as much oil as was previously possibly thought."

"Arctic oil possibly twice the size of previous estimates." Hey, that almost makes sense! Doesn't convey the whole picture of course but this is the mass media we're dealing with here.

"Estimates of arctic oil double." I bet they have software generators for this kind of thing.

Perhaps "unfound". Or maybe "pre-found".

It's the green shoots theory of oil. They found a 2nd derivative through imagination and creative software. Rejoice! All our troubles are over.

"times 14.2.84 miniplenty malquoted arctic reserves rectify"

If one can belief the world is 6000 years old, one can go to war for peace, technology will save us, and "they hate us because we are free", it's easy to imagine there are plenty of unearned riches just waiting to be explored below arctic ice.

PaulusP,
Let me update your post a little bit.
If you believe that you can spend trillions of dollars that you don't have, paint roofs white to stop global warming, and take over industries & lay people off to create jobs it is easy to imagine there are plenty of unearned riches just waiting to be explored below arctic ice.
There was an election, remember?

More like a Cheech and Chong movie. Two dudes fly over the Arctic in an airplane and one looks out the window.

"Mey man, look at all that oil!"

"That's water, you jackass!"

"No no, man, that's oil. I can see the sheen, man!"

"How many times do I have to tell you, the oil is underground."

"I don't care, man, I can see the oil. There is a billion, gazillion gallons of oil out there, man. There is enough oil out there to last for centuries ... (sigh)."

"This is supposed to be a scientific estimate. I can't tell the Geologic Survey that there are a 'billion-gazillion' barrels of oil ... "

"Gallons, man, gallons. Not barrels, gallons!"

"What's that number on the back of that piece of paper?"

"It's a phone number of that girl I met at the bar last night."

"Well, double it and that will be our 'official estimate'."

"Hey man! I can see Russia from here ..."

I should add a pointer to a TOD post by Jean Laherrere on Arctic oil and gas:

http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3666

Good comments too.

Joules -- as posted on the other thread: Another worthless piece of filler for public consumption IMO. First, they don't say whether the volumes of oil they offer are inplace or recoverable. They probably meant recoverable but one can't be sure. But if they do mean recoverable reserves then their numbers are even more misleading. The amount of oil recoverable from a reservoir anywhere on the planet is a function of how much is inplace and how much can be recovered with existing technology AT A CERTAIN PRICE. At $30/bbl I doubt there is one bbl of oil recoverable from the Arctic basin. At $200/bbl there may well be 10's of billions of bbls recoverable. Just another of my rants against projections of recoverable oil reserves when a pricing assumption is not included.

Also, I've done such studies (though on a smaller scale) in my career. The basic modeling includes assumptions regarding aspects in similar depositional settings. The results are dependent to the degree of accuracy of those assumptions: if they are not close then model could be much greater or much less. That's why there is such a range of possibilities. But the early Deep Water Gulf of Mexico offered little potential -- WRONG. And the model for the Muckluk (sp) offshore North Slope years had great expectations -- WRONG.

As I've crudely teased modeling experts before: modeling is a lot like masturbating. Nothing wrong with it as long as you don't start believing it's the real thing.

The basic modeling includes assumptions regarding aspects in similar depositional settings. The results are dependent to the degree of accuracy of those assumptions: if they are not close then model could be much greater or much less.

I think I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately neither the general public nor the media seems to care about the details as they just print what they're told. Arctic, OPEC or OCS, where ever, just so we know there's plenty of oil.

Time reports that "By [2030] the world oil markets might once again follow the normal rules of economics."

Oil Is Plentiful, Demand Weak. Why Are Gas Prices Going Up?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090529/wl_time/08599190144600

The size of reserves tell you nothing at all about flow rates.

Rockman - Best post that I have ever read on this site!!

"As I've crudely teased modeling experts before: modeling is a lot like masturbating. Nothing wrong with it as long as you don't start believing it's the real thing."

I only hope and pray that those that worship at the altar of the "climate" modelers read your post.

Cute.

The prescription for over-enthusiasm for probability estimates for unfound oil is to calm down and not bet to heavily that it is there.

The prescription for too much faith in climate models is what, in your opinion? Do nothing, because modeling is not the real thing?

Where the oil is is where it is. We can slowly gather more information, and if it is there, we'll find it (we might not be able to afford it).

Unfortunately, the climate is a complex system. I know you want something that you can just spin around in your head and make sense out of it, but then you just end up like the simple-minded folk who reason "gosh, the atmosphere is just way to big for us to have any impact!". Complexity cannot be dealt with so easily.

You don't trust the model? Fine. Do you understand the model? I doubt it. The problem is that there are probable dire consequences for just business as usual simply because you "don't trust those fancy modelers with fancy degrees in climate science."

I only hope and pray that those that worship at the altar of the "climate" deniers stop misrepresenting the role of models in climate science.

prevaricate: : to deviate from the truth

Particularly since we know the denialist stance is primarily lies and bad science.

The American Denial of Global Warming

ExxonMobil’s Tobacco-like Disinformation Campaign on Global Warming Science

Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate

At the same time, there is not a single paper, study or presentation that purports to show how climate scientists have a money machine built specifically to cheat the world out of its hard-earned money. This despite the FACT that this lie has been central to many denialists' claims.

Huh. Imagine that.

Onward:

Denialist claim: Models are unreliable

The Physics of Climate Modelling

Is Climate Modelling Science

Modeller vs Modeller

FAQ on Climate Models

Simple Models of Climate

General Circulation Models of Climate

Final thought: These links have been posted many times here, yet, they have been addressed by you various climate denialists exactly 0 times.

Huh. Imagine that.

Thanks jb. I don't dislike models per se. They are a valid tool. Rather it's what folks try to prove with models. One can argue all day long that the auumptions are correct. But some inputs are generaly accepted facts and others are assumptions. The problems I see arising is when folks present the models as truth without pointing out the assumptions. There is not one barrle of proven oil in the Artic region they are descibing. Is there some oil there? Almost certainly. But to use the model to assume future reserves that might impact the US/global economy to a certin degree is wrong IMO. Many folks look at model numbers and take them as promises. No honest modeler would ever present them as thus.

AGW is not my area. There are certainly proven facts in the models. There are also assumptions. As I see no possibility of the global societies ever reducing CO2 output the models don't really interest me. It's just as easy to just accept them on face value and anticipate the worst. In those models there are assumtions that probably will determine the degree of correctness (or wrongness) of the predictions. I'll let others explore those areas. I fully expect the world economies to swicth to increased coal utilization as other hydrocarbon sources dwindle in an effort to sustain the unsustainable growth model. If this destroys low areas then so be it. Industrialized economies will sacrifice those regions if that's what it takes to sustain themselves in the short run IMO.

AGW is not my area. There are certainly proven facts in the models. There are also assumptions.

This is not quite accurate, as I understand it. A big difference with geological models and climate models is that the geologic models are modeling something they have no direct experience with. It is pure guesswork in that sense. Yes, the underlying knowledge of geology gives strong clues, but those things have not actually been explored yet.

With climate, you start with the medium you are measuring. The current state of the thing, as opposed to oil in the Arctic, is already known. What we are looking at is what it's going to do, not whether or not the fundamentals are in place.

Finally, isn't it a little inaccurate to call parameters assumptions? That is treating modeling like prediction. This is perhaps the most damaging misunderstanding about climate modeling. Models are NOT used to tell us what the parameters should be, but are used to test the parameters determined by research. And those parameters are not guessed at, they are intentionally tested over a range of possibilities to give a breadth of possible futures.

This is not prediction, this is scenario generation.

Cheers

Actually ccpo I have 35 years of direct experience modeling geology. Just like with climate modeling we use proven histories (the data base) just as any modeler would use.
Is a parameter an assumption? Yes if it isn't a generally accepted fact. I do modeling on a daily basis and have to continuely choose parameters I THINK are applicable. I model the pressures a well will encounter when drilling. Not enough back pressure and the well blows out. Not a good day: environmental nightmare, $700 million rig destroyed and perhaps some lives lost. And I do this with historical data from previous well drilled in the area. But even when using analogs assumptions must be made. "I think" is just another way to say I assume.

But I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to prediction vs. scenario. The USGS saying there is X bbls of oil in the Arctic is no different then Prof. X saying sea level will rise Y inches by year 2001. The public takes these scenarios as prediction IMO. And this isn't to say that either scenario, if accepted as a prediction, is wrong. I think you’re saying the same thing I might: models can be neither right nor wrong. They are merely the answer to a series of assumptions/calculations. But you and I are in the great minority IMO.

Actually ccpo I have 35 years of direct experience modeling geology.

I wasn't questioning your expertise, just the characterization. I don't mean to sound argumentative; I hope only to help clarify these things in people's minds. It's entirely possible I am completely off-base wrt modeling in your field.

Just like with climate modeling we use proven histories (the data base) just as any modeler would use.

Yes, but of areas you have not actually explored. With climate, you are modeling the existing reality and backwards into the past to check validity, then modeling with the same existing reality but moving forward to get some guesses of future conditions. It's not quite the same as you do with geological provinces that have never been drilled. I will allow as there is some correlation between unexplored areas and future time.

Is a parameter an assumption? Yes if it isn't a generally accepted fact. I do modeling on a daily basis and have to continuely choose parameters I THINK are applicable.

Sure, but, again, I see a difference in scale. A good run of a GCM includes hundreds of runs with the same parameters and with variation in the parameters to get a wide range of possible outcomes. Perhaps I am just wrong in assuming you don't run as many runs in the oil patch?

And I do this with historical data from previous well drilled in the area.

Sure. But I was referring specifically to an unexplored province, such as most of the Arctic.

But even when using analogs assumptions must be made.

Yes, but here is the difference: the GCMs are using current data, as if from well-explored fields rather than unexplored. Real research that reflects the real conditions on the ground (so to speak) to start with. When you go prospecting in the Arctic, you have only models and remote data. You don't have the real conditions. I suppose with seismic, etc., that is much improved, however.

But I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to prediction vs. scenario. The USGS saying there is X bbls of oil in the Arctic is no different then Prof. X saying sea level will rise Y inches by year 2001. The public takes these scenarios as prediction IMO. And this isn't to say that either scenario, if accepted as a prediction, is wrong. I think you’re saying the same thing I might: models can be neither right nor wrong. They are merely the answer to a series of assumptions/calculations. But you and I are in the great minority IMO.

Agreed. Worse, with climate, there are people intentionally misleading about the efficacy and usefulness of modeling. It's often not a matter of not understanding, but intentionally calling a spread of scenarios with probabilities prediction.

Cheers

ccpo -- I didn't take your comments badly out all. Just my regular gruff tone Is suppose.

Big differences in geologic and weather models b for sure but lots of similarities. Climate modelers look at historic data...so do we. actually we tend to model the past and then forward model to current conditions. One big difference is the depth of the data base. Much greater with climate. Not that there aren't manner minor geologic factors but the are seldom ever considered. More of a sledgehammer then a tack hammer approach.

We measure the earth real time also but not on such a detailed scale of course. Some aspects , like seismic processing, do run 100's of iterations but that is unique to the effort.

I really wasn't trying to say much about climate modeling per se but just the general point that models are, as you point out, a cumulative answer to dozens of "what if's" and not a great predictive tool. Not that it can't be but I don't think they should be offered with such certainty as some folks do. Perhaps I'm just jaded by my own experiences. In my 35 years I've drilled 3 "sure shot...can't miss" projects. And two missed. So now I avoid the can't miss deals and stick with only the ones with a good chance of working.

Best regards

160 billion barrels is almost 2 years of oil. We are saved. We can stop worrying about Peak Oil and think about other things.