I looked into this a while back, in ecotechnic-style energy use, and ecotechnia and social justice.

First I looked at how we could be more efficient. Basically, we could halve our current energy use without compromising anyone's quality of life at all.

Second, though, we want everyone to have a good quality of life, not just those who have one now. It's senseless to have (say) the UK go all ecotechnic and efficient if (say) Vietnam is just going to take all their second-hand coal-fired stations. But the Vietnamese deserve a good quality of life, too. That turns out to happen with around 2kW of electricity per person.

So the energy use which was halved gets doubled again, to 2kW.

And then of course by the time all this could be achieved, around 2050, the world's population will have peaked at 9-10 billion. So that's another 40-50% total energy we need.

2kW x 9-10 billion people = 18-20,000GW of renewables.

That's a very big ask, but is doable. It's no crazier than having a billion cars in the world. It'd take a dedicated effort, not the half-arsed stuff we're doing now because we're worried that someone will complain it's too expensive, or too cheap, or too black, or too white, or any nonsense like that. But it's doable.

18-20,000GW of renewables.

How does that # compare to current use? How much of the current capacity can we keep and still meet emissions targets (CO2 350)?

Cheers

Personal note: I checked out that link and found it quite interesting. There are substantial differences with what I am advocating in that they want to create *new* ecovillages that are basically off-the-shelf. However, the machine shop part of what they are doing fits perfectly with my plan for areas with little or no industrial capacity.

18-20 TW is somewhat more than the current 16 TW, of which renewables (mostly large hydro) account for about 9%.

A recent estimate found potential for 72,000 GW of wind power alone, worldwide.

That is 2100+ quadrillion BTU of electricity (not fuel) per year.  Humanity currently uses about 400 quadrillion BTU of energy from all sources.  That should tell you how much headroom we have.

(I'm going to regret entering this massive thread so late.  I think I would have regretted it, period.)

Sure, the potential is great. But I guess we still need to address the variability issue and get portable fuel. We could solve it by electrolysis and ammonia production, but what would it cost?

From 55 kWh, you get a kg of hydrogen, and then I guess you need some more to go to ammonia, say 70 kWh in total to get 140 MJ ammonia. Gasoline is 32 MJ/litre, so you'd need 16 kWh for one litre of gasoline equivalent, or 60 kWh for one gallon equivalent. I guess this would be somewhat acceptable, at least to Europeans. However, nuclear and HTE would make this cheaper and more efficient.

But I guess we still need to address the variability issue

Redundancy. Overbuild. The wind is always blowing somewhere. With climate going crazy, it'd be stupid not to have a massively distributed and robust energy system.

But, then, we don't appear to be any smarter than yeast.

Cheers

we still need to address the variability issue

Pumped storage.

As I've mentioned to before, it's a mature, reliable, efficient, simple technology that's already widely deployed to smooth out mismatches in supply and demand of electricity. Storage needs are surprisingly low - a few days - so existing reservoirs could be retrofitted with more generator turbines and lower catchment areas to quickly provide enormous amounts of pumped storage capacity.

Moreover, modest overbuilding of capacity allows a small amount of storage - about 5 days - to reliably provide a region's electricity supply (at least for the case of Ontario, given hourly supply and demand data for 2007). The technical aspects of this aren't a particularly hard problem.

Wind combined with pumped storage is more expensive than nuclear.

Nuclear is already combined with pumped storage and gas power plants.

Read the articles I wrote :)

Our current energy use is about 15,500GW. Electricity is 2,000GW of that, very little of it renewable, and the renewable chunk mostly hydro with little capacity for expansion.

The current fossil fuel electricity generation has to all go. I mean, just deforestation contributes 18% or so of all greenhouse gases, and we need to drop to 10% of current emissions by 2050 to avoid whacking past 350ppm CO2e (more or less, depending which recent paper you believe). There's just no room in that emissions budget for burning coal to warm supermarkets which are being cooled by open fridges, and stuff like that.

Any serious mitigation plan requires that we abolish burning fossil fuels for electricity.

How do you end up with 2 kW?

In central Europe a 2 person household can easily live with less than 1000 kWh electricity per year (using efficient lamps, efficient fridges etc.).
That's 0.057 kW per person.

If you chose a Tesla roadster for transportation (no public transportation, which would more efficient) you'd need 0.11 kWh/km or 2200 kWh to travel 20,000 km per year.
That's 0.25 kW per person.

As far as heating and hot water is concerned: It's been shown numerous times that a well insulated house using its roof to heat the building doesn't require any additional energy for heating and hot water purposes.
Here's an example of multifamily house that provides 100% (including snowy winter) of its heating needs and hot water with its roof area alone in central Europe:
http://www.jenni.ch/picture/AktuellesBild/Baustelle51a.JPG
And all buildings actually need roofs anyway.

The International Monetary Fund says losses from the global financial crisis are set to rise to more than $US4 trillion:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1016299/Financial-crisis-to-cost-four...

With $4 Trillion just lost in one year, one can actually finance over 13'000 thinfilm photovoltaic factories from Oerlikon, which would produce 2,133 GW of PV per year:
That's 87,466 GW by 2050.
http://www.oerlikon.com/ecomaXL/index.php?site=SOLAR_EN_press_releases_d...

Kudos to [anyone]'s post above.

A problem I see in many above is failing to account for capacity factors. 5 TW of wind or solar generation won't give you 5 x 8,760 hr/yr kwh/yr of electricity, but more likely 5 x (8,760 * .25) kwh/yr.

Rather than kudos, you should try reading the articles I linked to. Load factor's discussed at some length.

In central Europe a 2 person household can easily live with less than 1000 kWh electricity per year (using efficient lamps, efficient fridges etc.).

Is that relevant? You can probably remove most energy needs in any small specific location by importing stuff with lots of sunk energy in them. Kiashu talked about total energy needs per capita, not just electricty in our homes.

photovoltaic factories from Oerlikon

Only $2000/kW nameplate PV? That's nice, but with lower capacity factor than wind at similar costs per kW, what's the use?

PV may not be particularly attractive for utilities.

But it is certainly attractive for homeowners and building owners, who want to reduce their electricity bill. Especially once it reaches costs below $1000 per kW.
http://lsheet.blogspot.com/2007/05/innovation-key-to-solar-cost-reductio...

I am hopeful for the day a regular person can purchase a 'turnkey' 1kW system for US$1000.

Currently, the typical selling price I see is about US$900 for a 200w solar panel, and about US$200 for an enphase (micro grid-tie inverter). Being vary simplistic, works out to cost about US$1100*5=US$5500 for a kW (peak), not including sales tax,installation, getting it inspected/approved to connect to grid power, support structures, etc.

If things could evolve to the point that there was a modular 1kw turnkey kit for about US$2000/each, that did not require inspection to be installed (currently another hurdle) then it could maybe be imagined to be a moderately expensive household purchase, such as a new refridgerator, air-conditioning unit, or high-end stove.

It would not be a complete solution, but I think it would help things move forward.

At least the manufacturing costs of the thinfilm solar modules are close to $1000 per kW:
http://www.solarplaza.com/article/solar-module-sales-price-of-1-per-watt...

But since the manufacturer and reseller still make a significant profit and are not interested in selling small volumes, it might take a while until you can actually buy modules for this price.

How do you end up with 2 kW?

Remember that only around one-third of electricity use is for domestic purposes. The other two-thirds is factories, streetlights, food processing, heart-lung machines, computers in libraries, and so on.

Presumably we'll want something beyond our own homes. Assuming all our energy use is renewable, and assuming we seek out efficiencies wherever we can find them, 2kW may be enough for a decent lifestyle.

You should have a good look at all the things which use electricity today, and all the things which use fossil fuels, and then imagine making all the fossil fuel use into renewable energy instead - it's a big deal.

Doable, but not easy.

a good quality of life, too. That turns out to happen with around 2kW of electricity per person.

For context, 2kW is roughly 18,000kWh/yr, which is about 50% more than current US electricity consumption, around 3x the consumption of older EU members (UK, etc.), and around 6x the consumption of newer EU members (e.g., Poland).

Germany consumes 180Mbtu/person, or 52,000kWh/yr, which is 6kW. However, of their 14.5 quads of primary energy consumption, 3.5 quads are coal, 3.5 quads natural gas, and 5.5 quads oil. Coal/NG are predominantly used for electricity at ~3:1 efficiency, or for heating (for which electric heat pumps are about 3x more efficient), meaning that they're equivalent to 1.2 quads of electricity each. Oil is mostly used for transportation, for which electric cars are ~6x more efficient and for which electric rail is 3x more efficient (than diesel rail, >10x more than trucks). Accordingly, those 5.5 quads of energy are equivalent to roughly 1-1.5 quads of electricity (assuming electric vehicles).

Hence, Germany is using the electricity-equivalent of about 6.5 quads of energy, or about 2.5kW per capita. Based on that, it seems like 2kW is likely to be an overestimate of what's needed for a good quality of life.

It seems like you're using a 2:1 factor to convert from primary energy to electricity; however, a more typical factor is 3:1 (that's a typical power plant efficiency, and the factor BP uses in their analyses), suggesting a figure of about 1.5kW. That's before any kinds of efficiency improvements other than converting to electricity, though, suggesting the actual value is likely to be lower still. Moreover, you don't seem to be taking into account at all the fact that roughly half of world primary energy consumption (most coal and natural gas, plus a significant amount of oil) is burned at about 30% efficiency to make electricity.

So 2kW is not a terrible figure, but it's very likely too high. If you're going to assume quite a few efficiency increases - and you seem to - then 1kW is probably a better estimate, and 2kW represents a luxurious lifestyle. Electricity is astonishingly more useful than thermal energy.

Yes, it's more electricity use than most countries currently have. But bear in mind that it's also electricity in place of other energies. Worldwide, we use 15.5TW of energy generally, but only 2TW of that is electrical. So in fact I'm suggesting a decline in overall energy use to 2kW per person, and a large increase in electricity use. That's worldwide; the picture for individual countries will of course be different.

I'm using no arbitrary ratios, as you'll see from the original articles I referred to above. I know some people don't like clicking links and reading articles off a particular site, but it seems better to link and then assume people read the article than to reproduce the entire article in full in a comment.

Of course there's a lot of room to move in these sorts of estimates. I've no doubt that if 2,000kW were available to people, they'd find ways to use it up; likewise, if we had 0.5kW, we'd manage to live tolerable lives. However, what's clear is that if we want to have an entirely renewable society, that's going to be a big build-out and take some time. We'll need more renewables than we have all electricity now, and we'll need lots of other things built, too - railways and so on.

The expense doesn't worry me, because we build things all the time. Often in these discussions the billions for renewables or rail or whatever are presented on their own, so they look very expensive. But we're always tearing up old power stations and roads and power lines and so on, and building new ones in their place. To take examples from Australia, it could be $55 million/km highways to carry 2,000 people an hour (EastLink), or $13 million/km railways to carry 20,000 people an hour (Perth).

Look at $13 million/km on its own, it looks terrible. Compared with $55 million/km, not so bad. Add in that it carries ten times as many people, and it looks really good. But someone who wanted to ensure no railways were built would focus on the $13 million/km. This is the sort of thing Gail has done here with wind turbines, focusing on the costs without comparing them to other costly things, and without considering the relative benefits.

So the question is not whether we'll build things, but what we'll build.

Is wind power more expensive than coal or gas? Sometimes yes, sometimes no - let's say it's more expensive. But wind power will still have "fuel" for itself twenty years from now, coal and gas, maybe not. So then the extra you pay for the wind looks not so bad. But wind is intermittent? Well, that's why we have a grid, and why we have solar, geothermal and so on.

If you want to make a thing look bad, talk about its cost, talk about it in isolation, and never speak of its benefits. You can do this with wind, coal, nuclear, solar, whatever. It's more honest and decent to look for a more balanced overview of things.

We can build all these renewables, but we have to decide to do it, and keep the resolve across many countries and through changes of government in each of those countries. It'll never be perfect. But then, the current fossil fuel system isn't perfect, either. Large chunks of the world population are without powered transport or electricity. Luckily, it doesn't have to be perfect, just overall in the right direction.

And that's another trick played by those against something - point out it can never be perfect, hold it to higher standards than anything they support is held to, and once it's shown it's imperfect, condemn it utterly.

My kudos

Look at $13 million/km on its own, it looks terrible. Compared with $55 million/km, not so bad. Add in that it carries ten times as many people, and it looks really good. But someone who wanted to ensure no railways were built would focus on the $13 million/km. This is the sort of thing Gail has done here with wind turbines, focusing on the costs without comparing them to other costly things, and without considering the relative benefits.

So the question is not whether we'll build things, but what we'll build.

Best Hopes for Realistic POVs,

Alan

So 2kW is not a terrible figure, but it's very likely too high. If you're going to assume quite a few efficiency increases - and you seem to - then 1kW is probably a better estimate, and 2kW represents a luxurious lifestyle. Electricity is astonishingly more useful than thermal energy.

Going from 0kw to 1kw certainly improves one's lot more than going from 1kw to 2kw.