Well, my theory of self-organization would be a long post, and is kind of "backwards"... My theory is that complex systems are physical things that are observable and explorable, but not definable. I use math as a diagnostic tool to help me ask better questions about physical systems as if they were "models of themselves", rather than to represent systems with my own constructs.

The way they work as a whole as if they have ESP is by having E.S.P (Equal Stress Principle) in having loops of relationships that share their strains and surplusses. It's something like collective insurance policies and makes the self-forgiving. That said, that is something one can only observe, and can't makes a machine to duplicate because natural systems rely on the cooperation of uncontrolled parts, not controlled parts. So... you can see it gets you exploring a lot of new territory to go into it.

My theory is a learning process, not a way to construct models. I use models for raising questions, not defining answers. The first farily compelling question for anything one observes growing is what is the network of relationships that is doing it, and second, how will it alter the conditions of its own environment to bring itself to an end. Generally, that happens one of two ways, distinguishing between self-maintaining and self-destabalizing sytems. They either switch from growth by beginning their maturation or their decline. fyi Try finding things of interest on one of my web sites www.synapse9.com or www.synapse9.com/blog or www.Connection.metdot.net

Well, here it goes 710 (or OIL) and pfhenshaw... Nate probably thinks I'm a little nuts, but empirical evidence can bear this out. Furthermore, I am pursuing this as a collective effort according to one of the central tenets of the theory.

It starts like this, Einstein theorized energy and mass are transformable and arrived at E=mc^2. Or, he started in some relevant direction and ended with this rather simple and economical formula. The concept and ramifications have been monumental in their impacts, needless to say.

Similarly, I arrived at the theory that energy and consciousness are transformable. I haven't come close to any formula, but I have come up with a few governing principles:

- complexity of the system is necessary for higher levels of energy to consciousness transformation and modulation. As an example, a nebula cloud of primordial matter incorporates massive amounts more mass than either a human being or the earth, but is not that wholly complex and contains very low consciousness density; whereas, the human body and brain system is one of the most complex systems we know of and has the ability to modulate consciousness. Furthermore, the human body's ability to modulate consciousness is not just within the cranial cavity, but throughout the entire organic system. Consciousness density is governed by complexity.

- we partake in the energy/consciousness transform nearly continuously, but because it is all encompassing in our biological existence we are not aware. I came up with "Does a fish know of water?" only to find out its been used before. But, did gravity exist prior to Newton quantifying and describing its behavior? Of course it did. We are involved in the E/C transform by the very act of this message. Just add up the physical systems, (me and you included), involved in this interchange of ideas and their energy usage to start to put together a simple model of E/C physical definitions.

- emotions are a high level E/C modulation mechanism, as is music.

- fully understanding the mathematical and physical characteristics as manifested in equations is beyond our capability at this time. We can get a good start, but I believe the communicable descriptions will progress as all technology has, it will evolve with knowledge.

- systems of like consciousness tend to self organize into more complex systems. This speaks to 710's query on emergent self-organization. This may provide the starting point for better quantifying the theory.

- having a higher ability to modulate the E/C transform will significantly alter our understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. As I like to say, the cup can be unbroken. There will still be adherence to the 1st Law since conservation still applies in the universe, but there will be the appearance of Entropy reversal employing E/C modulation. The Zeroth Law still definitely applies!

- got thinking on this, probably contemplating Hawkin's "Arrow of Time" from A Brief History. This is a humdinger, but I'll put it out there. The perceived direction of time could be dependent on the direction of the E/C transform. Our predominant current perceived direction is caused by mostly energy > consciousness. A reversed direction (premonition) could be the result of consciousness > energy (think of a film playing backwards as in the point about the cup becoming upbroken). This could provide a sound foundation for understanding premonition and otherwise physic phenomena.

That's it for now. But here are a few more points; we will not be able to engage in any appreciable space travel until we understand this principle of the universe. The Internet has evolved as a tool for a higher level of self organization for our species. How far it will take us is yet to be determined. If this seems all so simple and obvious, maybe that's because it is supposed to appear that way. C'mon, how tough is F=ma now that we have been told?

The really way out there final point to make is I've had some validation of the correct direction of this theory.

Hello Cherenkov,

As usual, I enjoy your postings. I hope you are making progress on that book you are writing based upon my postings [Recall your comment in my blog]. I fully hope you understand Asimov and 'Dune', plus the postPeak implications for Optimal Overshoot Decline. I will be glad to do a 'Nectar of the Gods' Yeasty Peakoil Shoutout upon its publication. Please don't forget Harry Chapin's "Remember when the Music.." and "Wildfire Reloaded" on Youtube. It will be outside-the-box thinking for the downslope ahead, and I think you and most TODers are brighter than Me. Thx[S]

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

Dave,
How indeed?

I have an intelligent right wing radical friend who understands the world very well,but he is quite comfortable with his philosophy,maintaining that wars,famines,ecological catastrophes natural or manmade,emergent diseases,and so forth are facts that cannot be avoided.He sees the eventual cultural and physical survival of his intellectual band of companions as the likely outcome of an eventual third world war.

One of his favorite remarks is that the ecologically conscious(He uses stronger language.Self imposed physical and cultural genocide is one variation.) folks who refrain from having children are so clueless that they don't even need nature to weed the gene pool on thier behalf,as they're taking care of it personally.

Now this is a very scary way to think to most people,but he is internally consistent.

Intellectual honesty requires that the possible truth of his arguments be evaluated seperately from the desirability of adopting his philosophy.

The more I study in the fields of biology and history,the more I conclude,reluctantly,that he may be right.Most visitors here are probably familiar with the the dictum that accurate quantom measurements are an impossibility because the very act of measuring changes the outcome.

I haven't figured out a graceful way of saying so but I think a very large part of the confusion about our so called shortcomings and failures are nothing more than the result of "us trying to understand us",which may be somewhat analogous to the physics measurement problem.

We try to look at Homo Sapiens as a biologist should-impassively,w/o injecting our prejudices and preconcieved notions into our observations,but we fail miserably because we insist on injecting our values-which are ephemeral cultural artifacts-into the examination of the problem at an inapropproiate(too early )stage.

As I see it life and evolution are emergent properties of complex but purely physical(in the sense that physicists use the term) phenomena.The properties of life result in a second round or generation of emergent phenomena exponentially more complex.(Anybody interested in pursueing this line of thought should start with Darwin and work his way up to EO Wilson if you are like me and have little money but abundant time and curiousity.Books are cheap.Specially used on the net.)

Any impartial and intellectually disinterested biologist from some other dimension would probably write a paper eventually resulting in something as follows:

Synopsis of the biological survey expedition report.planet III,gstar cat 666-131313

The dominant organisms have evolved such that thier fundamental behaviors are determined almost solely by thier lower brain centers which evolved in the earlier stages of thier lineage.

Food, sex,and status(power)are the most immediate first level drivers of thier behavior,with secondary drivers including kin selection and remarkably rapid Lamarckian cultural evolution.

As in all technologically evolved species so far encountered,randomly generated but self sustaining cultural and technological memes have caused the planetary population to coalesce into various factions that view all others as threats in general but allies of convenience.This species is one that has evolved thru a hunter stage and a territorial defense stage,and as such thier current status is consistent with the work of the socioboilogy school of thought which has guided our progress in the biological sciences for the last thousand orbits of our home planet.

There is of course a slight chance that a cooperative meme will come to dominate culturally and that they will therefore continue to remain numerous and potentially capable of defensive measures,but this is statistically highly unlikely.

It is reasonable to expectthat these organisms will burn thru the fixed resources of thier planet and either become extinct or techonlogically impoverished and few in number well before the scheduled expansion into this sector.

Entered this 237 day of the 2167 th Year of the Empire in the Master Budget Plan.
The full report may be accessed upon entering your security code.

MS Barf Battle Axe
MOS G9 Statistician

Back in the days when I used to read a lot of sci fi,my friends and I speculated that deliberately broadcasting high energy radio messages would be the best possible way to gain the attention of any space going predators and hand them our address on a silver platter.

It may be that we are DESIGNED(SUCH an unfortunate word,but none other fits as well,despite the erroneous implications)in such a way that we can only function within the "Us versus Them" paradigm.

Nature doesn't give a rats ass either way.

We make it.

Or we don't.

Go outside.
Climb a mountian.
Watch the sun rise.
Watch the sun set.FROM THE MOUNTIAN TOP.
Sit up there on a still quiet clear night and watch the stars do the dance of the neverending circle.
It will be very good if you can see the cemetery where your forebearers rest.
You will be able to accept reality if you do this as needed.
No prescription necessary.
No known cases of developed tolerance resulting in loss of Efficacy.

Either way. An astronomer can count ten thousand galaxies looking thru the window formed by the cup of the Little Dipper.All the "billions and billions"(Sagan fan here too!) of stars in each of those galaxies will continue to burn,and planets to rotate around a good portion of them,and life to arise on some of them,and to evolve intelligence on at least a small portion of those,which is still a lot.

"No such thing as a happy ending,Grandpa(?)"

"No child.No such thing as an ending."

That reminds me ,I need to go back and hunt up the title and get that book ordered.

As for all of you with no taste for this sort of metaphysics(?),I would snidely remind you that my pig doesn't care either.He's been squealing for his dinner for the last fifteen minutes,and he knows to the minute what time it is because he knows that certain cars pass at a certain time every day,and fifteen minutes is a long time to wait,when you have nothing to look forward to but your dinner and another nap.

If you ever overimbibe of reality altering substances and cannot decide if you are a figment of your own imagination,take off your shoes and go outside and kick a tree or something,hard,toes first.You will get Saul on the road message back in about a tenth of a second.

Gotta feed that pig before the busy body who moved into the nieghborhood lately calls PETA.

I believe I may kick over her beehive by inviting her over on the day we butcher.There's nothing like fresh hand raised pork tenderloin on a grill,even though the corn will be out of the freezer.

Airdale,

You said it a lot better than I could.