OK, so the Climate bill passed the House.

Next question: Will the Senate version correct all the mistakes? I can't comment, since the only version I've seen so far was the second one, which was reported out of committee. I still think that rationing of transport fuels would be the best option, especially given that most prople will see things as price increases with no direct connection to reductions in CO2 emissions.

E. Swanson

Yes, I have such mixed feelings about this bill. It is great that a major climate bill has passed at least house of congress, but handing over the future of the planet the the investment bankers that gave us last year's global financial meltdown seems...reckless to say the least.

I'm all for "cap," but "trade" no longer has the bright, promising ring it did just a few months ago. We have all seen the "magic of the market" become the dark sorcery of destruction on a massive global scale. Does anyone anymore really think that systemic greed is likely to save the planet?

Put down that broad brush, step back from the wall, and take a deep breath.

Just because we've seen some spectacular examples of greed-driven stupidity in recent years--and anyone who thinks we haven't is dumber than a sack of rocks--does not mean that any program that relies on market-based mechanism is doomed to failure.

One could use the same approach to condemn all government actions, all educational institutions, all gun ownership, any organized religion, etc.

We have to choose the best possible ways to address the quickly growing problems of climate chaos and peak oil. That means not just picking the right mechanism and walking away, but remaining diligent, and flexible, about how those mechanisms are implemented.

I really hate how much the current bill was watered down, but it's so much better than doing nothing or relying on Bush-era "voluntary compliance" that had I been a member of the House I would have voted for it--and immediately made plans with my colleagues to strengthen it.

That is not at all accurate-reclassifying fraud and neglect of fiduciary responsibility as "stupidity" is the current Party Line but it is a lie. Excluding a few exceptions such as Madoff, pretty well every "stupid" person involved in hurting the USA economy at a high level has done very very well indeed (and continue to thrive). Fuld, Greenspan, Bernanke, Geithner, Paulson, etc. etc.-the list is a very long one. You could label both Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan as "stupid" organizations as they needed taxpayer money to continue operations, but the players are thriving nonetheless.

Not really. Just as in every recession, GINI falls and the number of billionaires dwindle.

Also, in response to the first commenter, I would like to mention that rationing of gasoline would be stupid for real. We have a mechanism to optimize resource allocation - it's called "price". Btw - cap and trade is also somewhat daft - simple taxes creates the same effect but with far less beaurocracy. It's a pity you yanks can't stomach carbon taxes.

"cap and trade is also somewhat daft - simple taxes creates the same effect but with far less beaurocracy. It's a pity you yanks can't stomach carbon taxes."

We can certainly agree here. But note that by endorsing taxes that you are admitting that freemarket price alone has not been an adequate "mechanism to optimize resource allocation."

Rationing should still be in the mix. If you don't think the current crisis is every bit as pressing as WWII, you haven't been paying attention.

A National (FIT) Feed in tariff really makes sense to encourage alternatives to coal - even if at market rates. Hard to corrupt a power meter, Infrastructure for trade already exists. Without a FIT (or to a limited extent -net metering), you have little choice in your role as polluting grid-sucker.

A 200w PV panel with a Gridtie Inverter is under $1000 now and falling. Given a choice, many will (and are) investing to new power technologies on the personal and most important on the business level, Summary of FITs here:
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/feed_laws.html

The problem with rationing is that there are too many ways to game the system. Really that's a potential problem with all systems, so part of the trick is to come up with something that minimizes the opportunities for cheating..

That's right. Companies are going to comply by shutting their US plants, which are relatively clean, and open new ones in the BRICs which zero pollution controls.

And as a special bonus, they can fire all those pesky over-paid Americans AND pay fewer taxes. Sounds like a plan businesses can really rally around.

I'm surpised companies aren't begging for tighter US emissions rules.

This isn't a new phenomena. From the time the very first emission rules were promolgated in California putting rules on manufacturers while permitting the import of the same products from locations without rules condemns the local manufacturers.

I find it difficult to tell if all the world's legislatures are filled with blithering idiots or they are simply bought and paid for. Maybe both.

The Climate Bill (H.R. 2454) includes allocations for products which are imported, as I understand it. There is also mention of exemption for exported products. This is a very big bill and I don't claim to have complete grasp of it yet.

But, I was trying to focus only on transport fuels, which are most often consumed by individuals or small companies, who would not be directly covered by the cap-and-trade system in the climate bill, in which the allocations are only issued to entities which produce electricity or with produce emissions in excess of 25,000 tons per year. One needs to study the definitions under SEC. 312, which modifies Sec 700 in Title VII of the Clean Air Act, especially sub paragraph (13), COVERED ENTITY.

The direct allocation of transport fuels thru rationing would be difficult to game. This would be especially true if the allocations had a limited lifetime. There would thus be no way to accumulate the allocations. The Cap-and-Trade proposal allows banking of allocations. The rationing system would need a white market to smooth out the bumps in the allocations and would be a place for excess allocations after the expiration period. Again, it would be difficult to game such a system, as the official trading system would provide a floor on the value of allocations and the allocations would go directly to individual consumers.

As for the long term effectiveness of this Act, I think that the resulting consumer revolt would allow the Repugs to repeatedly pound in the notion that all the increases in cost of living over the next 4 years are the result of Cap-and-trade. The Repugs could blame the inflation from the Fed and Treasury's efforts to re-inflate the debit bubble on this, since the average 'Merican won't be able to see the difference. I think this could push the Democrats out of control after the next Presidential Election cycle...

E. Swanson

If you are going to call Republicans, Repugs it seems only fair to call Democrats, Damnocrats. I would prefer neither since it reflects poorly on the Oildrum.

Actually, I would rather call the Republicans of the Lush Numbrain/Darth Cheney faction something like "ReThugs", for their insistence that military bullying is the best approach to handling our relations with the rest of the world. You know, these guys label anyone that tries to fight us "terrorists", while calling our invading military forces "patriots". RePugs is a bit less inflammatory, but gets my feelings across too.

The sad thing is that the "Kill 'em all, let doG sort them out" solution may turn out to be the only way to deal with the fundamentalist fanatics...

E. Swanson

Does name-calling improve your logic?

I need all the help I can get. Got any logic to offer?

E. Swanson

Black Dog is being quite gentle.

I personally think that all those responsible for electin--then reelecting!--that national and global catastrophe GWB should be at the very least disqualified from ever voting again as they have shown themselves to be incapable of making rational judgments.