Hi Nate,

The monopoly position of China regarding rare earth oxides (REO) production can be broken by countries like the US and Australia by developing exploitation of other deposits on their own territories. The question is at what cost as compared to importing REO from China (if China even exports the quantities needed by us).

I do not have information on the energy share in REO mining cost or the energy share in rare earth metals refinery, and neither on development of these cost over time. Good question. It's of the utmost importance when analyzing energy input in metals mining and refinery that ALL energy input is being taken into consideration, not just explicit use of diesel fuel, electricity and so on. To give an extreme and odd but striking example: years ago some guy gave a presentation on the US Airborne Laser (based on public information), stating that the energy content of each shot (designated to shoot down a ballistic missile in its boost phase) would cost only a couple of dollarcents worth of electricity. That's because the power is huge, but the duration of the laser shot is extremely short. Wow, how cheap! But taking into consideration that at the time of the presentation, the construction cost alone of 5 ABL's would cost 7 billion USD (lasting how many shots? maintenance cost? fuel cost of flying the Boeing 747 ABL platform?) and that with each shot the huge chemical laser would consume about one metric ton of chemicals (to be dumped in the air after each shot), you'll understand that the real implicit energy and total cost per shot is very much larger.

The danger is that singleminded proponents of renewable energy, claiming this to be a 1 to 1 solution to replace fossil fuels, make the same incomplete assumptions on energy input in metals mining and metals refinery, making a similar shorcut as in the extreme example above to "justify" that the energy share in total cost is of no real concern. In the ABL example, this logic would dictate that even an increase in electric energy cost of a factor of one million would be of no consequence to the viability of using ABL's.

Andre,
Surely you can give an estimate of the energy required for mining and refining all metals except the "metals of hope"( which use perhaps 5-10% of the worlds energy consumption)OR a figure for all metals?

As far as renewable energy( as electricity) replacing oil, we can estimate that it will be better than 1:1, in other words the 160-200MJ used to refine and present in 1gallon(or 4litres)of gasoline can be replaced by 10kWh(36MJ) of electrical energy used in a similar sized vehicle such as the Toyota RAV4( ICE;31mpg ) compared with the RAV4_EV(0.2kWh/mile). This is about X5 less energy. In fact each gallon of gasoline uses about 5kWh of energy just in refining from crude oil.

Hi Neil,

I have an even better question for you: surely you can give an estimate of the energy required for producing oil and gas? I'm sure you know the answer, tracking back the vast amount of reactions on various themes from you on this blog.

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If the answer would be just a few percent, does this than undermine the credibility of Peak Oil?
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By the way, your example in the lower part of your question/remark from July 10/11:44am reminds me of the airborne laser example I gave earlier: you just calculate with gasoline and electricity. You conveniently forget the embedded energy contained in the hardware. Also there might be constraints with cost and availability of primary goods required to realize the hardware, especially in case of mass production.

Andre,
I don't know for natural gas, but refining oil takes about 10% of its energy content so for the US that would be about 4% of total US energy use. If you add in refining losses and the cost of distribution, building refineries and service stations its probably another 15% for a total of 10% of the entire US energy budget, and would guess that its about the same for the rest of the world. I would say that's a significant energy use, considering its only delivering 30% of total energy. Hydro and wind energy probably have the lowest embedded energy costs of renewable energy(1-5%).

Now you are presenting an article about mineral availability so you should present some numbers about energy use, especially those critical metals such as copper, neodymium, tin, uranium, nickel,......

The comparison of an electric vehicle(RAV4EV) and an ICE(RAV4) is comparing almost identical vehicles so the infrastructure for manufacturing is almost identical. There may be constrains in availability of Lithium, Nickel, Copper, not present in an ICE vehicle .. but unless we have a number for energy used to produce these metals its hard to know what the constrains will be.