I certainly agree that we (global society) need a new future. Unfortunately I simply don't see it happening in a rational way but only as a result of collapse and die off. But, who knows how that might play out.

There are too many vested interests for all of them to reach a consensus as to the "good" society. To take my own beliefs on one issue -population density, i.e. a low density, rural, agriculturally based society vs those who posit that the answer is high density cities. I'm simply not willing to compromise on this. I don't have time to go into detail on this although I have mentioned many of the reasons in past posts.

There are those of us who live close to the future you foresee but I don't see people flocking to our doors seeking advice as to how they too could live like we do.

Todd

Life in a big city when times were very bad.

This was my and my brothers experience back then. During WWII when for a brief time(maybe 4 of 5 months) my mother came back to the country from St. Louis and took me and my brother back to St. Louis with her. The depression was ending and times were tough everywhere. On the farm though we knew nothing of this.

She had earlier abandoned us at her brothers farm and hauled away for St. Louis, leaving two young tearful children in the dust. But years later she thought that the war was ending soon and came to get us for she felt surely that the father would want to know where his two sons were.

We lived down around Chouteau and 12th street or close to it in a very bad area at the time. All around were buildings that had been demolished and it looked like a wasteland. Huge stretches of fallen bricks,trashed blocks of lots and empty spaces full of junk and places it was not wise to go to.

As she returned to her bars and other men we had to learn to steal from the corner grocery store to eat or else stand by someones back screen door until they took pity and gave us something. She never cooked. We had to survive on our own.

My brother was sitting on the curb on Chouteau with a friend when a car careened nearby,,hooking the clothing of his friend and dragging him down the street. He was then dead. My brother watched it all.

Later my brother had fallen out of a two story window and landed on concrete. As he was later dying of cancer back around 2001 he informed me that our mother had pushed him out that window as he sat on the window ledge. She also pushed him into a hot heating stove.

This life was such that later on I realized I was then going into the first stages of insanity and mental disease. We had to go outside as our bed was being used as a love nest by her and her drunken boy friend/s.

This woman had serious problems. Many women did and acted the same way during that long war. Men likewise.

We never went to the school. We just hid and ran and stole and begged. Once I took a bite out of one slice of white bread and then said I didn't want it. She slapped me to the ground for that.

So I hid her paycheck in the icebox. She went ballistic.

Only a Jewish woman who lived alone with her daughter(our age)would sometimes invite us to her apt and let us eat with them. I never forgot that woman's kindness. To this day I revere Jewish people for that kind act of mercy.

My brother took the worst of that life with him forever and never married or was able to deal with many situations the rest of his life. For 25 years he disappeared off the face of the earth until I finally ran him down,,then he died of cancer soon after. He had become a millionaire but died penniless. He wrote most of the bios code for the Sun Microsystem Workstations when they were in startup.

My father finally came home from the war. We were already back in the country and living more decently by that time. He then abandoned us once more and had divorced my mother. We preferred to live with our kinfolks on the farms and hated the ugly dirty city after that. It was a ugly time. It was very hard on children who had to endure the city life. I remember the cops would beat you for almost nothing.

So due to the war and hard times I never hardly knew my parents until I was 12 years old. I was happy on the farm even though we had to do lots of chores.

I will never ever live in a city. I have for very short periods of time when I was working but always lived on a farm or in the suburbs. The suburbs as little as possible.

When I recall the vast destroyed ugly landscape of that city back then I thought later how much like the ghettos it must have been like for me and my little brother.

Cities for the poor are trashheaps. IMO. And my experiences.

As things cycle down in the near future I don't see how it could be any different than it was back then for me in that terrible place and during hard times. Those are scars I carry of it. I will not ever return to such a possibility. It is not IMO a good place to raise children. Children are the only thing ultimately that will save this civilization. They need to breath clean air and live well.

One last note. I observed many other children that we mixed with and associated with. Their lots were about the same as ours. We would have eventually become thieves and gangsters or hoods. South St. Louis was later full of them.

Airdale

Aha Airdale,

Now we have traveled Westwardly back to Eden, to your roots.
To your Berraishit Borah. No wonder you have a fascination with the Hebraic version of the Bible. Tim'shell.

Thanks for sharing.

But oh forget thee not that, Jerusalem, it is a city. Kids grew up there too. Young Solomon for example, son of David.

From your writings it appears that another Solomon had his roots in St. Louis.

To further refine what I was trying to convey but perhaps missed, in the above comment I offer this.

"Hopefully some will be able to wake up in time, leave the intoxicating dreams behind and face reality, however grim. Because then they'll be able to devise a New Future. A Better Future. A Future founded on the real physical entities that run through our Economy, not in abstract, growth dependent, illusions. A Future where each man and woman have their place and are not enslaved by a spiral of virtual accumulation and spending."

Directly above is a quote from the essay. Note the 'intoxicating dreams'. Note 'where each man and woman have their place'...and 'are not enslaved'....note this.

And realize that in a high density city you are not FREE. You are controlled. You MUST rely on the food markets or distribution systems. On the water you do not control. On the sewage systems you have no control over. On who is living right next to you and what is he possibly up to?

This is very different from a rural setting.
I rest my case.

Cities will entrap one. Open farmland will not. Even quite small towns where trademen can barter and serve a useful purpose and everyone knows everybody, are worthy.

I have seen all of these and the worse was the cities. Blighted, crime ridden, wasteful and full of danger and very little one could do about any of it.

So at least to me the path is very very clear. Do you wish to control yourself or let others dictate?

Airdale

Airdale,

I always enjoy reading your post. This thought occured to me a few months ago actually. Freedom is not a result of the country you live in or the laws in your area, but almost completely a result of your population density.

Moyers: What happens to the idea of the dignity of the human species if population growth continues at its present rate?

Asimov: It will be completely destroyed. I will use what I call my bathroom metaphor. Two people live in an apartment and there are two bathrooms, then both have the freedom of the bathroom. You can go to the bathroom anytime you want, and stay as long as you want, for whatever you need. Everyone believes in the freedom of the bathroom. It should be right there in the Constitution. But if you have 20 people in the apartment and two bathrooms, no matter how much every person believes in the freedom of the bathroom, there is no such thing. You have to set up times for each person, you have to bang at the door, "Aren't you through yet?" and so on. The same way democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it. Convenience and decency cannot survive it. As you put more and more people into the world, the value of life not only declines, it disappears. It doesn't matter if someone dies. The more people there are the less one individual matters.

If you lived in Canada's Yukon or northwest territories or the plains of Mongolia, no one can tell you what to do, because there is no one around to tell you to do it. People are always bound by constraints either from nature or from other people, this is, the ones from people are the only ones you can avoid.

what ho Airdale I think you speak my thoughts: that for a thing to be sustainable it must be worth sustaining. We have, for a moment, bought the potage and have sold the simple joys of making, doing and being with each other. That potage - the corporations and governments that offer a false sense of security in return for a servile life filled with commuting, mechanized meals, structured days and virtual human contact are not sustainable for other than the docile or slavish.

.......................... Are we not men?

Well I don't say that the return to sustainable society will be easy, but on the way it is becoming interesting!

Hey Ignatz,

In the above I gave two examples of life. This was in an era of very much difficulty and very hard times EXCEPT that I didn't know that living on the farm. Hadn't a clue.

But when whisked to the big city? It was overpowerin. No more sitting out in the lawn at dusk and listening to the hoot owls. Slow talk by my uncles,aunts and grandparents,winding down the day until full dark and bedtime.

I attempted to show others how it was in both lifestyles for a young child. And my younger brother.

So to me there is no decision on this. My past settled that before I even considered it hard. No decision. I aleady had been living this way for some years. Many years even though I traveled extensively working on mainframe systems. The farm was always my touchstone.

Any way...to each his own..this is my way.

Airdale-peace be upon you