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83 comments on Drumbeat, July 27, 2009

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WNC Observer on July 27, 2009 - 12:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Lots of tradespeople still can make a good living, and community college (which has largely taken over from the "trade schools") is a very good and very affordable option. Most mediocre students should probably be heading there rather than to a four year program. They can find out during the first two years whether they really have what it takes to do the higher level work that the last two years of college requires. If they can't cut it, at least they'll still end up with a Associate's Degree or a certificate, and will have spared themselves a lot of expense (and probably a lot of debt).

The truth of the matter is that the US economy as it is now and is likely to be in the future probably doesn't need more than about 10-15% of its adult population to have a Bachelor's degree, at most. It would be good if we had a majority of our population attaining more than just 12 years of HS. This suggests to me that at least 35-40% of our students should be going to community college. Most instead are going to 4-year colleges and either not finishing at all, or finishing with a worthless degree, and in either case loaded down with a heavy debt burden.

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darwinsdog on July 27, 2009 - 12:57pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

...and community college... is a very good and very affordable option.

To put it bluntly, the quality of education offered by community colleges sucks.

From direct experience I know that the vast majority of students in community college can't do simple arithmetic, don't understand the metric system, and can't write a coherent sentence let alone multi-paragraph essay. They are ignorant of history and geography and are clueless of basic biology. They sit in class (if they bother to show up for class at all) texting on their cell phones or socializing on Facebook on their laptops. They miss labs & quizzes then expect the instructor to bend over backwards to accommodate their irresponsibility. Every grade is disputed, and instructors will get complaints lodged against them to the dean of student affairs if they don't cave in to grade inflation. Consider an "A" in a course given at a community college the equivalent to a "C" given at a reputable institution of higher education. Consider the student's GPA inflated by at least two full integers.

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jokuhl on July 27, 2009 - 4:31pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Surprise, surprise. Another broadside against a whole category.

Sorry you had a bad experience, DD, but would you consider adopting the humility to admit you can't speak for the whole lot of them?

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darwinsdog on July 27, 2009 - 5:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I draw my experience from New York to Illinois to New Mexico & Arizona. There may be exceptions to the rule but I doubt it. There is simply no academic rigor at the community college level. They're all about ensuring "student success," which is jargon for never giving a failing grade, regardless of lack of student aptitude or effort. Compare any junior or community college with a top notch state research institution. Actually, there is no comparison.

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RBM on July 27, 2009 - 6:17pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I graduated in Dec '08 from a tech school which had joined the local community college system. This tech had been freestanding with an
excellent reputation for years prior to joining the CC system.

The pressure to relent to business issues over education issues was lamented by more than one instructor.

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jokuhl on July 27, 2009 - 6:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Of course there's a comparison, and part of it starts with comparing the respective jobs they are set up to do, and the resources they are able to corral to do it with.

For all your apparent education, it's funny that your spectral range still consists of just black and white.

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oldfarmermac on July 27, 2009 - 6:11pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

JOhjul,
Unfortunately,dog is right.

Even at major uviversities thes days,all the kids are above average.If you don't believe me,just tour some professors office doors the last day of any semester,and you will find that posted grades are eighty percent OR MORE As and Bs only.

There are only two programs at my local community college that ever flunk out any significant number of students-nursing and information technology-and damn few in it.

The other departments have virtually no standards at all.Show up,you graduate.

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jokuhl on July 28, 2009 - 8:25am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I'm sorry, but you can't make an across the board slam like that.

The problems you two are talking about ARE real problems, but there are good schools and colleges, and there are good programs and exceptional people working in poorer schools, too.

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oldfarmermac on July 28, 2009 - 9:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Of course there are still lots of good schools ,even at the elementary school level.

I should have composed my comment more carefully.

But lots of schools have turned into businesses,and standards have declined enormously.If students are not graduating,they are not paying tuition.

A high school diploma is worthless these days except as a preliminary screening device.

This situation has arisen because of the enormous pressure brought to bear on schools to graduate every student.

.Well,you are not allowed to hit them ,or even cuss them,and you can't fire them,but they can get you fired if you try too hard to make them actually work in class.Cause untenured teachers are replaceable but students are a fact.

The only real way you can ENFORCE a standard is send a kid to the office.Nothing happens to him that matters to him ,but if you send a lot,they get rid of you.And tenured teachers learn to go with the flow and not raise too much fuss.

But each school not in a ghetto has at least one teacher in every grade and subject who can set and up hold standards.The other teachers kids,the lawyers kids,school board members kids,business opwners kids,are in this teachers classes. And she can assign homework,and it gets done..

Google grade inflation.

Or talk to some employers about how much or little new graduates know these days.

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r4ndom on July 28, 2009 - 10:34pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Kids these days...

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Tonu on July 28, 2009 - 1:33am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Once you get remedial English as a prerequisite to advanced remedial English you must start to understand there is a problem. My wife wrote two college textbooks -- everything was geared down to 10th grade reading comprehension ... maybe acceptable until one considers that the entry level high school graduates, at mean, were reading below 8th grade comprehension.

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jokuhl on July 28, 2009 - 8:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Yes, there is a problem. But the poor literacy rates of kids entering colleges these days is a fully societal problem, and something the Colleges can only try to remediate.. sadly, it corrodes what these schools will be able to accomplish with their students as well.

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r4ndom on July 28, 2009 - 10:04am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Admissions standards fix this problem at private colleges, why not at public ones?

Demonstrate basic competence in reading, writing, and math or you just don't get in.

Private tutoring or self-learning is available for anyone who discovers they lack the necessary skills and really wants to be there.

Just because public colleges and universities need to be open to anyone, doesn't mean they need to be open to everyone.

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83 comments on Drumbeat, July 27, 2009

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