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354 comments on IEA Economist Warns about World Oil Supply
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This could very well be a breakthrough, which could bring price raises in the coming weeks. The more the public know about why they're losing their jobs, the less likely we'll be to see another "drill baby drill" campaign. Now we just need people to move out of suburbs into sustainable farming.... Is there anyway an 18 year old such as myself can get involved educating? Where's the grass roots movement at?
This is your Vietnam War to oppose. YOU have to get involved with those that YOU know and make the positive choice to FIGHT for YOUR future.
YOUR future is in the trash can and soon that trash can will be on fire. YOUR children and your children's children will have NO FUTURE AT ALL and be living at the hands of blind fate and worse luck.
It takes YOU convincing ONE FRIEND and they ONE MORE and so on in a chain reaction. Only you can do this only the younger people. My Vietnam was ... Vietnam. The older generations can only understand the status quo, they have lost their idealism. It is young people like yourself who have the chance to remake the world into something that all life has a place in. You must fight or die ...
The establishment will be against you, you will be hated and attacked, you will be arrested and harassed, you will be assaulted and hurt. In the end, winning will not be what it has been. It will be less. This makes the task at hand that much harder.
Good luck to you. You have taken the first step. The second and third will reveal themselves. Be patient - but not too patient. Use the time to find that one friend.
Steve, I think you are too dismissive of older people there. They will anyway be stereotypically witch-hunted as supposedly those who caused the problems. Many older are indeed incapable of unthinking their assumptions sufficiently, but some, including some obvious names here, are clearly ahead of the curve instead. Young people are inevitably lacking in experience and length of view, and no less importantly, knowledge of the pre-corporate ways of doing things. Youth has no great substitute for these. So the generations need to combine together their differing assets.
I'd recommend avoiding getting into the whole "children" (and hence "children's children") thing altogether if you haven't already. Overpopulation is becoming a big issue, but there seems to be a general disconnect between the issue and how people see it being resolved, even here among the enlightened.
i enjoy your thoughtful comments, steve -- but i disagree with your notion of any political movement successfully piggybacking on peak oil. i agree 100% with technozombie that it's "game over." it's just a question of 'when', not 'if'.
there may be different individual 'solutions' for different people -- some in certain big cities, some in the country. for me, i've decided to stay where i'm at for now -- manhattan, new york city.
i've been lurking on TOD for about 3 years now and, having familiarized myself with the works of catton, tainter, hardin, kunstler, greer and explored such sites as die-off, etc. -- i'm definitely in the doomer camp.
the only reason i discuss peak oil with friends and family is to alert them of possibilities to help ensure their own survival in what's to come, and that it's important to have some terra firma on world outlook that allows real discussion. without such basic agreement on what makes the world tick from one's comrades it's easy to go insane in one's own intellectual isolation.
but i don't see any political upside to telling people about TEOTWAWKI. i do see the drudge link to such an expert and huge sphere of influence as fatih birol as significant, however. drudge has become the essential daily read for the journalistic profession: most mainstream journalists (whether or not they admit it) click on drudge several times a day. and over the past year or so -- despite the huge head fake of collapsing oil prices since the $147/b one year ago -- indicate that peak oil has become an increasingly significant meme -- to the degree that more and more journalists know about peak oil, but are simply censored from writing about it seriously.
similarly, the birol article uses that favorite "in 10 years..." because that is a sufficiently distant horizon for most people to put any real panic back in the box rather than panic.
what's most frightening about the drudge link are the comments that accompany the article. notice the RAGE that peak oil inspires. there's good reason to be scared sh**less that a right wing 'drill baby drill' nutcase (i.e., sarah palin) will be elected at some point in the future, probably not 2012, but all too likely in 2016.
similarly, i see as much denial about peak oil on the left, because peak oil means that all the wonderful cradle-to-grave fantasies of leftwingers are effectually made impossible and revealed for what they are -- fantasies -- by peak oil.
so, fasten your seatbelts and enjoy the ride down while doing what you can to ensure your own survival.
not a pretty picture. but an accurate one, as far as i can tell.
the corporate interests that run the big show will NEVER willingly acknowledge a post-peak oil as long as they can avoid doing so. as one corporate master said, it's simply more profitable to keep driving the truck of civilization into the wall -- over and over and over again. there's just no money to be made in 'contraction'. as they (and TODers) know, the need for incessant growth is baked into the cake of civilization: not only are we hard wired for 'more, more, more', and to seek constantly greater relative status, as nate hagens recently pointed out in his excellent presentation, but because the ever increasing debt requires growth just to pay interest on that debt. we must run faster and faster just to remain in place.
the only kind of 'managed contraction' (hat tip to kunstler) we're going to see is the attempted nonreporting of signal events -- famines, electrical grid failures, etc, as the inevitable die-off proceeds.
so, the most important questions are: 1)how messy will it all be; 2) how long will it take; 3) what kind of civilization will remain; and 4) how will it affect me and my loved ones.
i realize this must be almost impossible for most people with children and especially young people (like our 18-year old friend above) with their full lives and hopes and dreams ahead of them to wrap their heads around.
i'm very glad i've found TOD!
sas,
Your reflection on the 'Comments' section of the article are spot-on. If the member of TOD really want to see what we're up against, they need to read every single one of those comments. The people who write them use tones that range from dismissive to belligerent, citing statistics and 'facts' that are dubious at best and blatantly false at worst. I, for one, understand the desire to stick your head in the sand when things start to go bad.
In an answer to your questions you raised, I think the following:
1.) How messy? Very. If everything was perfect from this day forth, we would have a hell of a time. But, of course, we know that everything is not perfect; so we are going to have to live with the hand we are dealt. The indicators that I am looking at as the final few signs that the excrement is finally hitting the proverbial rotary air-movement device will be the decoupling of oil from the market. When oil continues to rise when the market heads south this time, it will probably be for good. That decoupling will be followed, in my opinion, by the decoupling of the dollar as the currency of preference for oil. It is at this point in time that we need to be ready to rock and roll, as the saying goes.
2.) How long will it take? Who the hell knows! This, of course, will depend on the aforementioned circumstances and how quickly and drastically they set things. What I can tell you is that regardless of the length of time it takes, we are going to be emerging into a completely different world afterwards. Which brings me to . . .
3.) What kind of civilization will remain? With caution, expedience, and true order, we can expect things to simply draw down, with a few major problems in the most populated urban areas. Take away the above things, and it's game on. Remember we live in a country where there are more guns than people. Also remember that a supermajority of our population have no earthly idea how to survive without electricity and fossil fuels. Tack onto that the fact that EVERYTHING, even our water treatment and basic sanitation, runs on oil, and being in a large city during a crash scenario is just about the scariest f'in thing I can imagine. Places that will be safe, in my opinion, is any place that is more than 3 days walking distance from a major metropolitan area (assuming walking distance at 10 miles per day). The further away from NY, LA, SF, CHI, DC, BOS, and HOU (among others) you are, the better off you'll be.
Finally, 4.) The better prepared you are, the less dramatically you and your loved ones will be affected. Pay attention to the news (especially on NPR and sites like TOD and Energybulletin.net) and when you see things coming, get the hell out of dodge (especially if you live somewhere like Manhattan).
Hope this is a decent post and conversation piece for you.
those commenters' rage, who are mostly from the sticks themselves, scare me more than any local blackout. if the grid in the northeast u.s.a goes out, then of course, you are correct -- we're done within a few months, at best. i'm thinking mid-term, when there may be chaos in many places on earth and in the u.s.a, but the lights are still on in new york metropolitan area. after all, lots of rich people here (who, presumably, the police will be paid to protect), and because it is an island, it is very easy for the police to actually seal off manhattan and control who comes and goes.
generally speaking, most out-of-towners don't realize that manhattan is an extremely safe place to be -- as long as the police force is still operating.
even if the grid does go down in nyc, my own immediate survival strategy is to stock up on at least a year's worth of nonperishable foods and provision water. i live on the ground floor, so no worry about elevators, etc. i'm also going to be preparing a good survivor's pack that allows me to hike out of town if the need arises. not sure where i'd go, though!
at my stage in life, it's just unrealistic to be trying to build/find a fortress out in the boonies at this point.
and, legally speaking, owning guns is simply out of the question in nyc.
in the long term -- except for the committed survivalists with plenty of fire power -- we're all fooked.
We do not need to panic. The solution is simulated reality. We could connect everyone to a virtual reality computer system such that a lavish, or otherwise desirable, lifestyle could be experienced without real resources (apart from minimum amounts of simple foods) needing to be consumed.
Current virtual reality systems are quite basic, but at an exponential (Moore's law) rate of technological development it is not out of the question for large scale and believable simulated reality systems to be in place within 25 years. This would be an achievable and sustainable solution to our resource constraints. It would also be a lifestlye improvement for the vast majority of people.
This should not be viewed negatively as the manner in which simulated reality was shown in the movie 'The Matrix'. Instead everyone would be aware that they are living in a simulated environment and would be free to live outside it if they wished.
We are already living a large portion of our life interacting with a low form of simulated reality: the internet. We just need to bring it to the next level whereby we can live larger portions of our lives in a more complete simulated reality offering higher quality of life experiences and lower resource consumption than our "real world".
We could use simulated reality to replace almost all resource consuming activities and not just leisure activities: commuting to and from the office/school, attending work/classes, shopping for the latest disposable fashions and gadgets. We could log out of the simulation for some "real time", but that would soon become as arcane as writing and mailing a physical letter to thousands of people instead of a comment on theoildrum.
you will have to pedal your bicycle generator awful fast and hard to keep the internet -- the sine qua non of virtual reality -- going, dontcha think? nice response, though!
Of course. I forgot to mention that maybe we reached peak oil a hundred years ago and are simply re-running the experience via simulated reality at the moment in order to see if we can come up with another solution other than simulated reality.
My legs sure are getting tired pedaling this bicycle generator.
Well, humor is good -- but perhaps April 1 would have been a better day for this post.
If by humor, you mean the absurdist farce and delirium theoildrum descends into on days such as this. Then yes, humor is good.
Theoildrum debate, while most often enlightening, is unfortunately also occasionally like watching an online version of Waiting for Godot:
Sas,
If the grid goes down and the police seal off Manhattan ,how are you going to take a crap?
And if you have no gun,how are you going to keep the body builder on the third floor from just wringing your neck like a chicken?
If I were in your shoes and happy and elderly,etc, I would probably stay put as you intend to do.
But you nede to create a few strategic alliances if you can find them with like minded people.
And get a gun.If you need it and don't have it,the consequences are much worse than the small chance of getting prosecuted for having it if you are discreet.
all great points! i have followed your informed comments for several months now and always look forward to reading you, farmer mac. some form of 'community' -- good friends and local allies -- will likely be the most essential resource when TSHTF. i am very fortunate to live in a building of about a dozen closely associated, highly invested neighbors with whom my close and mutually supportive relations go back 30+ years, and a couple of good friends as well. it was a slum when i first moved in, but both the building and nabe (near columbia university) are quite sound.
i'm in my 50s -- not quite elderly. and i'm right on a park and the river. i could hightail it for at least a few days, in a pinch.
i certainly ponder the gun issue. your point is well taken.
i have a huge (but mostly shady) garden with a compost heap. believe it or not, i have to spread my cat litter just to keep the raccoons at bay.
yes, we have raccoons in manhattan.
my diggs in manhattan is almost like a country estate (fought for with blood, sweat, toil, broken bones ... and time - so much f*&^*&^*& wasted time!). i feel like both a property owner -- and a caretaker, since it seems i am constantly fixing things. i'm probably the only manhattan resident with a 24-foot ladder and a bow saw. and a wall of tools sufficient to build a house.
a thoughtful response!
5) the population will be 4-5 times the last time we lived in a world powered by hand (150 years ago -- h/t kunstler) with an environment that has been seriously defiled, depleted and degraded since that time i'm not sure about "NPR" as anything but a voice of the PTB. [that said, i listen to npr almost continuously.]
ugh!
This is not very well thought out.
The grid is not going down anytime soon. We have plenty of coal and gas to power it. US oil production is still robust enough to keep the necessary machines oiled (though this would even be possible without it) to keep producing gas and mining coal. Grain production can be nationalized.
You may expect to see mobs of unemployed in the next few years. But the inability to power the US grid, for the next few decades at least, is the real fantasy.
i certainly hope you are right. i can see the grid remaining intact for another 10 or 15 years -- absent one or more black swann events, of course. and it will likely break down somewhere else in the undeveloped world -- africa, pakistan, mexico -- before in the u.s.
but those black swans are increasing in number by the day (see kunstler's rant, today "hunky dory"). (i wonder: what is richard duncan's latest olduvai projection, timewise, to major regional grid failure.)
hopefully you are right that the reasonably predicted future would be a gradual descent into a state like many latin american countries, with a highly concentrated wealthy few, with bodyguards, more and more gated communities, kidnappings, and a gradual breakdown in order -- while the lights remain on.
that's the optimistic scenario, of course. 20 years? given the population and environmental pressures building, i just don't see much more than that before huge regions collapse, due to grid failure or water shortages or ... whatever.
The grid in places like NYC will be among the last things to go down in a general collapse and while it is possible that things will get that bad, my opinion is that the odds are pretty high that they won't,at least in the next few years-barring a war.
In war all bets are off because war,like all most other large scale organized activities has evolved.
Asymetric warfare is the new buzz word,and globalzation and modern communications are what make it possible.
There may very well be a war in the cards,and there might very well be enough sleeper agents in this country to create some real problems.
You can't get very close to a big bank or office building with a truck without cops being on to you pdq but I would not be suprised if you couldn't easily drive a truck bomb to some place without being stopped that it could create a blackout.
And a half dozen special forces soldiers can burn down an unsuspecting city with a back pack load each of incedinary grenades.
Such grenades have timers, and they just start down a street and place one in a good spot every couple of hundred yards,each man heading in a dfferent direction.If they get stopped they just whip out a pistol and shoot a decent hard working cop who has probably never ever pulled his gun out of it's holster except to practice at a firing range.An officerdown,if he gets off an sos, would gaurantee that every cop in town would converge on the area-making the rest of the fire bombers jobs easy as pie.
six athletic men, fifty two pound fire bombs each,a couple of hours fast walk or a faster bike ride at three am,at five am three hundred fires scattered all over town.If the wind is up,and the weather is dry,it's all over for that town.The fire trucks couldn't even get to most of them as most towns don't have that kind of manpower.
I bought a training manual once that was full of such stuff,at a second hand bookstore.And even though I personally have zero training in such things,I believe I could buy everything I need to build the grenades at Radio Shack and Wal mart,with a stop somewhere along the way for a pint of gasolene for each one.
When I aked a relative who at the time was in the service about it,he got visibly upset-even more so than usual when he saw me in tose days- and wanted me to give it to him but at that time I wearing a chain around my neck and my hair long and running with shall we say an antiestablishment crowd.I told him I had read it and traded it back to the bookstore,which was true,more than likely,as that was my usual habit in the Vietnam days.
It seems so long ago now that it's just not REAL anymore.
I am no fan of Bush and company or the Patriot Act but such scenarios are militarily realistic and it's foolish to ignore reality simply because it's unpleasant.
I very much doubt that the grid is going to just suddenly shut off for good. But I do very much expect that it is going to become considerably and progressively more unreliable in the years ahead. Where I live, we already have power outages quite frequently (maybe once a month or so); we also had an extended, widespread outage after the remnants of Ivan passed through, leaving most of us without power for several days. Our society is now entering an era which could be called "chronic breakdown" or "catabolic collapse". More and more things are going to be working less and less well. In the case of electricity, I expect to see the outages become more and more frequent, and go on longer and longer in duration. There are third world countries where the electricity is on only a few hours each day - if you are lucky; some days it isn't on at all. Yes, their grid is still "up" - barely. I don't know if it will get that bad in my lifetime or not, but it might.
great post, SP! especially, "look for oil price decoupling from the market" as inflection point/precursor to TSHTF!
"but i disagree with your notion of any political movement successfully piggybacking on peak oil."
But in Britain this is what the far right BNP are trying to do. They have a page on their website about peak oil and energy independence for the country. The right have played on peoples fear before and it has got them seats.
"energy independence for the country...".
yes, of course sarah palin represents that constituency in the u.s. but for whatever reason, the far right wing (or any other wing, IMO) in the u.s. has not latched onto or even indicated they are aware of the reality of peak oil. most probably the leaders are aware of it, but have decided it is just not a "sale" item for the successful dissemination of their ideology.
ergo -- my original point.
i have seen on youtube a video of your bnp candidate discussing peak oil! and i had the same thought at the time as i mentioned above.
Oh, the USA will become energy-independent, all right, and it won't be thanks to any loony politician. The end of oil exports will take care of that quite nicely.
Of course, that isn't exactly what they mean when they talk about "energy independence". They want to have their cake AND eat it too. Reality is that the inevitable, soon-to-come energy independence will mean learning to live with LESS energy. That is all there is to it, and it will happen whether anyone likes it or not.
duplicate
Distasteful as it is, there no choice but to build a political movement, and there's no choice about its putting its arms around peak oil. All the millions of jobs being lost are just a down payment. When will these people return to the workforce? Never. Millions more will be joining them.
There are tent cities springing up around the country. These tent cities need to be converted, and given help to convert to places where people can live, grow their own food, build communities, share facilities, learn to use their hands and minds to build a new way of life.
Steve is a hundred per cent right about this -- the gov't is totally hostile to all this -- it wants to warehouse people at best, not help them rebuild their lives outside the global market economy.
So in order to get the space and support for return-to-the-soil communities there will have to be a fight with the gov't and the corporate interests it represents. And that fight has to be political. Now of course there already exist middle-class experiments in this kind of thing. But people totally without assets can't do this without some initial support and help. It's far beyond criminal that trillions are committed to bailing out financial institution while not even the thought is entertained of giving ANY support such movements -- which could rescue the lives of tens of millions, and ultimately all of us.
What choice is there? Just wait for the whole thing to collapse? But it won't without an alternative. All of this is very hard to get our heads around, very hard to explain to friends and family. Those that weren't thinking about this last year, are now. Those that aren't now, will next year. I totally agree with Steve's general direction. There's got to be hope, and there is hope, but it can realistically only be in one general direction. Growth is over -- there can be no replay of the 40s and 50s that followed the 30s.
Will it be easy or soon? No. But that's irrelevant as things continue to disintegrate. There's just no choice.
great comment, davebygolly! i'd prefer to think you are right, although as matt savinar recently mentioned (in a video presentation), the expense of starting communities and maintaining them until they actually become essential to survival (and thus revenue neutral?) is exorbitant, and a great discouragement to their success.
are you suggesting that government will subsidize such communities? it sounds too sensible to work, frankly. and it represents a threat to those who want to keep driving the train into the wall. somehow i can't see the gov't helping such post-peak oil communities as long as there is reality tv and real estate inventory to sell.
I'm suggesting that the gov't OUGHT to, not that it will -- it will not. That's why a political movement that embraces a realistic view of the future is needed. The gov't can only be challenged and forced to do things it opposes by a political movement.
All of your points, and then some, about the difficulties ahead are entirely valid.
The American people are at present almost totally unrepresented in the halls of power. They'll get nothing, not even survival, without a political movement based a realistic view of the world. When there's no choice, things are very simple, despite all the complications and difficulties. The problem is getting everyone to see that there is no choice. But it's also important to stress that comfortable survival is ultimately possible and attainable, even though it won't be at all like middle class life for the last 100 years.
It depends which game you speak of. The old consumption game is running down. A new game is starting and nobody has a clue of what kind of game it will be.
People always have some choices, and can find ways to work together. Right now there is no activism because there is no clear way seen ... to 'piggy-back political movement onto peak oil'. That doesn't mean there isn't a way, it's just that way isn't visible right now.
The call to the young is because they have the social engine. Social engines go along with youth, discovering new people is part of the adventure of life. Only the young people can come together both in numbers and in force ... to amplify the required changes. They voted - and worked - for Obama because they believed he would do something real - to measure up to their idealism.
They were duped, but they could not have known this because Obama was so new. Being duped gives them a reason to change their minds. Activism must come before enlightenment, for there is no other way to find enlightenment in our compromised electron environment! The next step of activism is to make Obama represent - to do his job, to actually reach the level of action that he himself promised. If he cannot do this then he and his cohort must step aside; like Nixon did and Johnson before him. This is the parallel with Vietnam; it wasn't the war itself that mattered as much as the activism that surrounded it.
Our American culture changed, the people as a whole changed ... then the establishment changed in order to keep up. Once the war was ended, the reason to act disappeared. Now ... organizing ourselves to gain control of the institutions that serve us cannot be short- circuited by anything ... there is nothing to end, only an impossible dream of four or five Saudi Arabias. From this perspective, activism is inevitable, even inescapable. Activism is the only reorganizing force capable of countering the ongoing entropy of the political system. Activism is the only means to change the system because all other alternatives = system failure.
Right now, too many Americans feel they have too much (left) to lose; they wait and hope with upturned hearts. Another year and this may not be so and more will feel desperate enough to become activists as well. Yes, the fascists are trying to mobilize, but they have nothing to sell -or piggyback from - the flip side of peak oil. Drilling is a lie. Depletion and deflation are the truth; the fascists cannot control the tides any more than can a King Canute ... or Obama.
'New' fascists cannot sell 'stuff' any more than the fascists who are in charge now! As far as it goes, that part of the new game is visible.
There is not much point in trying to build a political movement around "peak oil". By the time you've convinced a majority of people that "oil really has peaked, by golly!", we will be so far past the peak that it will be blatantly obvious and beyond dispute, political party or no political party. Pretty much the same thing applies with GCC.
No, what we need to do is think beyond that, to the next step: What are we going to do about it? To make things perfectly clear, I am not talking about reversing or deferring the inevitable, but rather about coping with its consequences. Any political political movement worth the effort needs to be focused around an action agenda of coping strategies that really will make a positive difference for people.
The advantage of thinking in terms of a coping strategy agenda is that it then becomes possible to somewhat cloak the motives behind it on the one hand, and to appeal to other constituencies that can support the agenda for other reasons, thus broadening your support base.
What are some of the things that should be in this agenda?
Obviously, one crucial element must be the promotion and build out of as much renewable energy production capacity as possible. This was one thing that Obama did include in his agenda, but he has been rather timid and half-hearted in following through on it since taking office; it needs to be a much higher priority, and much more is needed. Note, however, how he did bring in the "new economy, green jobs" angle in order to broaden its appeal. That is an example of the type of approach I am talking about.
Energy efficiency is another key area, and transportation policy especially is crucial. We've talked a lot about that here, so I need only to repeat in summary: we need to get as many people as possible out of their cars and on to public transport, or maybe even on to bicycles or into walking shoes. To the extent that the cars are still needed, we need to transition to energy-efficient EVs. We need to move freight from trucks on to trains and barges. The essential public service, agricultural, and local haulage vehicles need to transition from gasoline and petrodiesel to biodiesel, which is the only biofuel application for which cropland can justifiably be spared. Ultimately, we do not just need to build out a different transport infrastructure and vehicles to move upon it, but we will also need to evolve the built environment into one that is more pedestrian and bicycle friendly, and that provides more people with nearby access to a public transport node. Where are the opportunities to broaden the appeal? Getting people out of their cars and into walking or bicycling will also make them healthier, which is good for its own sake; it also has a positive impact on health care costs, something people are especially concerned about right now. Many people have criticized the whole "American way of life", suburban sprawl, the automobile culture, etc. There are social and aesthetic reasons to support the agenda.
I could go on, talking about food and agriculture, for example, but this is already a long post and you should get my drift.
steve from virginia, "The American people are at present almost totally unrepresented in the halls of power."
it's certainly true that nonunion joe sixpack and small business have no seat at the table. and that huge segment of the populace represents 99% of the rage that is likely to be unleashed and unlikely to be successfully directed toward constructive action, imo.
WNC, your proposed coping strategy of QUICKLY, EFFECTIVELY and DRAMATICALLY reducing u.s. residential and commercial transportion gasoline is precisely on the mark.
the most efficient way to achieve such reductions would be to place a hefty $2 ... or $5! floor tax under every gallon of gasoline.
sadly, political realities have made that impossible. thus the current/recent soggy pretzel legislation to up cafe standards a few mpg by 2016 ... blah blah blah.
but the tax would do the job in a jiffy.
and its impossible for the same reason you won't have much success attracting activists: nobody's going to attend a rally to raise gasoline taxes!
but sooner or later the market is gonna get around to $6, $8 ... $20 gas! and then there will be "change you can believe in." but i'm a bit nervous about what form that "change" that will take.
Lets look at it from an engineer's perspective. When given a task the first thing and engineer see is whether it can be done. If it can't be done there is no need of going any step further. There is a hell lots of things impossible for humans. Looking at the peak oil scenario ok we all can live in a much lower life standard, we let go the electricity, the auto mobiles, the plastic, the nylon, the tv, the computer, the internet, we start working by hand. Ofcourse it would be hard and need may be years to fully adjust but the love of life should make us adapt. Now, what about the food? World food production was 5 times in 2000 than 1950, the reason was fossil fuels. Once the fossil fuels start getting really short, should not be right after peak or even cliff, there would be prioritization of fossil fuels usage at first allocating a higher and higher proportion of them to food production but then may be 10 or 15 or 20 years from now a time would come when per person food consumption have to be affected. First the meat consumption is reduced and then something big has to be happened to reduce world population. It could be a disease or a war. A large percentage of people today live on medicines they can't survive without, think for example diabetics patients who need refrigerated insulin twice daily. Long before the food production get affected the electricity for home users would be gone, resulting in lack of medicines which need cooling which means death for many people. This would be the natural selection. Only the young, strong and adaptive would survive. A lots of deaths have to be in children as they are the most weak and have to suffer most without early medicines and due to rapid shiftings of families. Today more than half of the world population live in cities, not due to lack of food but due to lack of jobs and businesses they have to shift near to farm. This has to happen. There is no way around. We can't live on fish alone, caught by city dwellers. There has to be atleast one and more likely many epidemics to reduce world population. This would be in addition of a war. May be, no major (world war like) war happen because of lack of resources and internal chaos in each country. There may be civil wars, agricultural provinces suddenly knowing their importance breaking themselves from national orders stopping external immigrations, may be even drawing physical walls. Nuclear war is very unlikely because there would be supposedly nothing left to fight for, only a depressed president may press the nuclear button but given humanity's fear for nukes that right may be taken away from the presidents early in the game. There could be medium and low level stealing, spreading of nukes from weapons' stockpile and power plants that may altogether result in 100 hiroshima like explosions killing may be 150 million but that would be negligible if an all-out nuclear war is avoided.
I would like to add to Steve's exlellent commemts that if you are a young person with plenty of hormones and energy that life as an activist can be a very good life,probably the best life of all.
What you miss in terms of material goods is far more than compensated by the sense of community that comes from being part of such a movement,and when you are old,you will realize that the best days of your lives were spent at some crowded low rent apartment or decrepit old farm house talking and smoking and listening to the music and actually MAKING history the next day and maybe getting a whiff of tear gas or two for your troubles.
And although some can't see it my way ,I say simply that you are free as long as you have a weapon and continue the fight.Right upon until the minute you either die or become a prisoner.
Even in jail you can remain free if you have read Thoreau and taken his work to heart.
If your are not a liberal when you are young,you have no heart.If you are not a conservative when you are old you have no brain.
The only problem with this is that old people are generally comfortable enough with the status quo that they pack thier brain away along with their memories of thier youth.
Making love ONCE with a woman (man) you truly love and who loves you in return is the most sublime experience possible,excepting only the love of your children.
One night with a woman I loved and who loved me was worth more than all the casual sex I ever managed to experinence-not that there is NECESSARILY anything WRONG with casual sex-every farm boy knows that there are only two kinds of sex.Good! and BETTER!
If you become an activist,you will experience real life,as opposed to casual life.
Or you can find a place and a way to live outside the rat race and enjoy a real life-unless you get steam rollered by "progress".
Fully agree, except I'd advise codgers to be activist as well. There's less energy, true, but also less wasted energy.
A large part of present and future problems is that your item 4) does not include the entire population of the world. Read some philosophers, there was a good one teaching back about 2000 years ago. A guy from Nazareth.
"Read some philosophers, there was a good one teaching back about 2000 years ago. A guy from Nazareth."
your premise makes for a good country tune, but i'm not sure gw bush's favorite 'philosopher' is the be-all and end-all of how to survive what's coming. sure, there'll be plenty of room for kindness to strangers. but there'll also be plenty of sarah-palin rage-filled abiotic oil worshiping, gun toting marauders -- opposite the save-the-planet altruistic "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine, too" types -- all citing jesus's greatness and leadership.
as they say, "the devil knows scripture like the back of his hand."
personally, i'll vote for the honest atheist if i have a choice. not saying there aren't plenty of great philosophers to learn from.
but in general ... how about aristotle? "a is always unequal to b."
Sas,
Isn't it amazing how many people fail to realize that "a" CANNOT equal "b".
FOR THE OVER EDUCATED,this simply means a IS b and we mistake one thing for two.
ermyers,
The end of oil will probably spell the end of ICE vehicles, but I would be surprised if people don't continue to live in suburbs, using electric power from renewable energy, traveling in EV's. The movement from agriculture to urban and suburban living took 100 years these types of changes take generations. You only have to ask 18 year old women/men where they want to live if they decide to have a family. Not many are going to choose sustainable farming or urban high rises unless I am totally out of touch with the younger generation.
I am retired so I can live almost anywhere, I actually like the suburbs( without snow) and am waiting to be able to buy a PHEV, when the price drops below $50,000. I figure I will still be able to get small amounts of ethanol or gasoline for the next 30 years, but use electricity for most traveling.
We are clearly producing more suburban housing and less walkable urban housing than personal preferences on their own would result in, since we have to rely on cross-subsidies, development subsidies, and zoning restrictions to generate the current quantity of suburban car-only housing, and declines in property values in new outer suburban developments dropped more precipitously than property values in walkable urban neighborhoods.
That is not to say that the personal preferences for suburban style residences will vanish if we put it on a level playing field with walkable suburban villages centered on a dedicated transport corridor ... but since half of our housing stock is in suburban sprawl, a decline of demand from the level created by subsidies and zoning toward actual personal preference distributions could leave us without any need for substantial new construction in suburban housing for a decade or more.
yup; suburbia is STILL the american dream. and, in reality, if you have an acre or so in suburbia (only the most exclusive communities), to the degree that you are able to escape the grid with wind/solar, and plant a garden and have access to water -- you'll probably be ok. plenty of 'ifs', i guess, but at this point in time, plumbing the absolute advantages/disadvantages of ANYWHERE -- city, suburbs, boondocks -- is really just a guess until TS really HTF.
there are still too many unknowns about how things will play out, IMO. there will likely be established some types of feudal heirarchies in all of these settings, determined by wealth (i.e., firepower, food, provisions and access/control over remaining energy and other essential resources. one can certainly hope for some types of evolving local community governmental structures to prevail. but it's not a given by any means.
sas,
to the degree that you are able to escape the grid with wind/solar, and plant a garden and have access to water -- you'll probably be ok.
Why would we want to escape the grid, that's already linking up to hydro,nuclear , wind and solar, a lot cheaper than building your own in poor solar or poor wind locations. Where I live, the city is supplied by gravity fed water with a small amount of desal back-up ( using wind power). That seems secure to me, perhaps not enough to water lawns but plenty for washing, drinking, and watering a small vegie garden. Not much oil used for these services.
of course you are right! i'm talking about preparing for a grid that eventually goes down. i am gambling that the grid is most likely to be maintained for the longest period in the northeast, which includes 'prime' suburbia. nyc also has gravity fed water, a major plus. not sure about the suburbs, though.
Readers should refer back to Airdale's comments on the icestorm that his area suffered. Such an event in the North East region could result in millions of deaths.
It seems likely that this amendment of the IEA's position re: the timing of peak oil will set off alarm bells across the globe. They are acknowledging what most here have long expected, the Age of Oil is fast drawing to an end. Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call to governments and concentrate attention on how we can prepare for the inevitable. However, I fear that most governments, particularly members of the OECD, will waste time trying to downplay the possible ramifications of declining oil production and to assure the public that everything is under control. I also fear that we will waste precious time trying to figure out how to maintain economic growth. Growth is not the answer - it is the problem!
"This could very well be a breakthrough"
I very much doubt it. FB doesn't even set out the facts frankly. He suggests a peak 12 yrs ahead while just about everyone who's clued-up sees the end of the growth curve is already 4 years in the past.
And a key point to understand is that being informed of the facts is a long way short of having any understanding of what they mean. The doubters of Copernicus, of Wegener's continental drift theory, and so on, had exactly the same information at their disposal. The concept that economics and politics are the kings of subjects, commanding the obedience of lower-class subjects such as mere physics and chemistry, is hardwired into the brains of the "leaders". That's why none of them chose to be physicists! The idea that "growth is a good thing and it can always be restarted" can only be thrown out via a paradigm shift to a new perspective such as only happens "when its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it".
Within a few weeks most media voices will be back to the b.a.u. chants about when the recovery comes, after the recovery comes, when we successfully restore growth, blah. The peak oil ~theory~ will have been last month's story.
As for a grass-roots movement to join, I'm in the UK, but the situation is international and you are welcome to collaborate over there in my own beginning efforts at http://energyark.blogspot.com and www.energyark.net. I believe there's some "transition towns"-type thinking going on in Portland OR, but you'll see I am far from persuaded thereby.
Wow. Nice post. I like your way of weaving words.
How about the following word weaving? Anagram of "IEA Fatih Birol":
Oil Habit Afire
A Rife Oil Habit
is even better IMHO. ;-)
Yes (for ermyers), there is a Transition Town initiative in Portland. See transitionpdx.org, and transitionus.org for more info on the movement in general. We have just been going for about a year and will be having an Open Space day on Saturday Sept 26 which will be an opportunity for anyone to propose a topic they want to discuss and is expected to result in several new subgroups including one on food security. (I can explain more about all this, and what we have been up to, if you want to email me at lizbryant at yahoo dot com. I can get you on our email list if you don't see where to do it on the website.) There will be a keynote speaker, not yet confirmed, the night before. The local Transition initiative was started by people active in Portland Peak Oil, including one who was on the City's Peak Oil Task Force.
Also google Portland Permaculture Guild for permaculture education efforts and getting on their email list.
I haven't read up on RobinPC's concerns about Transition, nor what he is starting up in the UK, but I don't think it will do you much good to join up with folks over there when there is a lot going on in Portland on many fronts. I I hope you will check us out. It will help you link up with whatever else you are interested in in Portland, as Transition folks have many other connections.
My own son is 23 and he and his girlfriend are here in Portland and tuned into these issues. So I am very empathetic with your generation's concerns. Hope to meet you one of these days!
Liz Bryant
But I suggest that you should, as these concepts apply worldwide, and others have been joining in on the original TTers' website with some of the same heavy critiques I advanced, e.g.:
http://transitionculture.org/2009/07/03/responding-to-sharon-astyk-on-pe...
http://transitionculture.org/2009/02/23/a-farm-for-the-future-essential-...
http://transitionculture.org/2009/05/27/to-plan-for-emergency-or-not-hei...
Just about all the pages on my (recently started) sites http://energyark.blogspot.com and www.energyark.net are by definition relevant to the TT debate.
I am getting more convinced that the UK government is aware of the peak oil problem but do not want to make the public aware or make markets react by making public their concerns. They will be well aware of the North Seas declining output and some of the policy announcements in the last year seems to be aiming towards reducing dependency:
1) Electric car subsidies for consumers announced in last years government budget
2) Small car hydrid engines to be produced by Toyota in Deeside engine plant, of course with some government money.
3) Electric cars to be produced by Nissan in Sunderland again with government support
4) Electrification of rail line from London to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea and Manchester to Liverpool line.
Most of these announcements are reported as reducing CO2 emissions and fighting climate change, which of course they also do but a pattern does emerge.
Hey ER;
Guess I'll join the chorus of advisers here for my two bits..
As Robin says, it can be a tough message to sell.. and given Steve from Virginia's intense version of it, you surely know just how even a well-intended message can go offtrack and probably lose more ears than it gains..
My approach has been to be very visible in my various projects for solving my energy needs, and just to make people know that this is one of MY beliefs and interests. I have a fairly UGLY homebuilt box and tower on my roof in a small Maine City, and I've told many neighbors about the Solar Hot Air Box, Solar Panels, Lighting and other house retrofits that are whittling away at my 'Imported Energy Habit'
I have "PEAK OIL! - coming soon to a highway near you. Got Options?" bumper sticker on our car, FWIW, and I don't approach it like I'm resigned to have people despise and shun me over it. I'm making preps for my family, and people who ask me about it, I'll explain to them that 'We're extremely vulnerable in our energy dependencies, and I'm looking for alternatives and retrofits' Many agree that there's a problem, some think it's overblown, but after supporting my position a bit, I don't insist on 'winning the argument', I agree to disagree without backing down and I just keep visibly doing what I can to devise retrofits and toss them into conversation and onto the roof when possible. They know who in the neighborhood to come to if they want to do more about it.
I think the most radical stuff you can do is get off the juice itself, and be visible and audible with your successes. There are places for yelling, but there's so much fear and anger blasting around right now, I think those messages will largely be ignored and avoided.
There are people out there who DO want to change, even if they're stuck in the cart-tracks right now. Help figure out ways they can wedge their wheels away from the ride. It might be like the Martial Arts idea of using the power of the opponent against itself, instead of thinking you can just butt up against it and beat it with your own muscle.
Courage!
Bob
jokuhl, Your enterprise of persuasion-by-actually-doing-things principle has the potential to be (mis?!-)interpreted by neighbours as that you are just a nutcase too pigheaded to listen to the reason of others.
All this potentially comes over as "I know better than you" (even though that may be true). Maybe you should instead express an interest in the perspectives of the doubters, ask them what they think, what their reasoning and so-on is. This makes them seem like equally respected partners in learning, and while you may learn something from them yourself, just as likely they may come to see the weakness of their own assumptions in the process. You can't disprove a question!
That's a good suggestion, while I think I do that already. By 'Agreeing to disagree', I will generally hear their thoughts and acknowledge them, but say that for Prudence sake, I'd rather have a somewhat more diversified supply. For heating a home in Maine, people seem pretty ready to let you take care of business however you see fit.. and they'll take notes to see if they can't tag along when a good proposal shows up.
I probably abbreviated my communications too much above. I meant to emphasize simply that I'm not drawing a line in the sand with 'disbelievers' .. Steve's equation with Vietnam Opposition reminds me that this struggle will really fall hard if it's made into repeated us/them iterations..
Even friends who think that the 'Oil Situation' is all Saudi Manipulation or Government Control or something have had no problem with my getting some free heat from some clever rooftop rigs. I haven't heard anyone suggest I'm getting imperious or arrogant, which has decidedly been my tack. They'll say 'How well's it work?', and I tell them that when it was 5 degrees F last February, it was blowing 120 degree air into the house most of the day, every day.. and this year, I'll add another one, etc, etc.. They hear that, no matter what they think is behind oil prices or the current economy.
I think I only get into stubborn spats when people are being obnoxious and cruel to each other.. still something I could stand to improve some.
Bob
Both ordinary people and power elites will change their minds once an iron bar called "reality" hits them over the head, and not a minute before. You will just burn yourself out in a futile effort to speed that along any sooner, so don't even try.
The things that could make a real difference for your (and everyone's) future are mass transit, inter-city passenger rail, and renewable energy. The more of these that we can build out, and the more quickly it can be done, the better your future is likely to be. I suggest that you focus your efforts on these. It is not necessary to convince everyone that the worst is coming in order to get support for these things; you just need to be clever and skillful enough to convince enough people - the right people - that it is in their interest to move forward on these things. It doesn't have to be a massive national program, either. Every little movement forward on these things in every little place does make a difference. It is a lot more feasible for the little people like us to achieve little things than it is to accomplish big things.
Best, most-thoughtful comment of the lot. I wholeheartedly agree.
constructive incrementalism is assuredly always the best way forward in an imperfect world -- if there is time for such incremental efforts to outrun catastrophe. and that 'if' seems to be essential nugget of debate among peak oilers. it's a race against time for every issue under discussion. no?
There is a reason in nature why everyone cannot be convinced. Given the long term carrying capacity of earth which is less than one-third of world population now, a lot of people alive today have to face a tragedic death. It could either be through a war or an epidemic or both or a series of them. This is the most logical outcome. This is why most people would not listen or understand what we at tod talk about. There have to be those kinds of people because there have to be reduction in population. Its like there have to be stupid and lazy deers in a herd to be eaten by the lion, since lion has to get its food all the herd cannot be intelligent and active. Existence of the many ignorants make survival easy for the few knowledge-ables.
""Is there anyway an 18 year old such as myself can get involved educating? Where's the grass roots movement at?""
The real answer to your question, and something not many here will say to your face, is.....
It's already too late.
Find a place to survive as best you can. Get away from the cities ASAP, find a small community that will keep you alive for as long as you can. Enjoy the ride to the bottom for all it's worth.
Well, I didn't say that lot above here but on the pages I linked to I certainly did!
The location of the grass roots movement depends on your location. Are you in U. S. A. or U. K.? Transition Towns is growing fast in my area (Colorado). ASPO-USA is also strong in Colorado, so we are fortunate in that regard. Good luck wherever you are.
I think that everybody is still educating themselves; this is a complex issue. It is hard enough to see the problem. But what is really hard is to find viable approaches. Even among the educated, there's only the most general ideas about a general direction for appropriate responses. Look at TOD: we've seem some posts by Herman Daly and some others, but there is nothing even close to a consensus on which direction we should take. It's hard to build a movement when you can't answer the question, "well, what should we do?" with more than a vague response. It's the end of the growth economy, but what will replace it? And what policies will the movement advocate? And then when you have these policies, how do you popularize them?
I know, this isn't that helpful: more questions than answers. But the problem is that even among the well informed, there are real questions for which we don't have answers. I'm working on it!
Keith
"I know, this isn't that helpful: more questions than answers."
This is actually something of a plus. Telling people that there is an enormous problem and they can have a role in forming solutions is a bit more inviting than just saying, "This is what you should be doing."
It depends on the urgency of the situation. When there is urgency, most people just want to be told what to do, in my experience. I'm not saying that is the best course of action or the only course of action, merely that that seems to be be how most people are wired. YMMV.
ER -- You will get a lot of advice, including sensible advice that is completely contradictory. In the spirit of Yogi Berra I would say: heed all of it. I have some thoughts:
Be careful here. Daily price ticks have little to do with supply pronouncements from shops like IEA. Oil is up pretty big today, for instance, but it is driven by the weakening dollar and the domestic financials-buzzed DJIA. I would not get too hooked on what prices do in the near term -- you can find posts on this site literally calling for $20/bbl and $200/bbl by the end of the year. Both are possible and neither is welcome.
Absolutely, take a position on oil supplies that you are comfortable defending based on strong evidence and let people know your beliefs. They will be impressed by your knowledge but expect a lot of pushback, including an insistence that 'drill baby drill' is indeed the answer. Make your case firmly and calmly. You may not convince your particular antagonist, but others around you will start to think....
At 18, your prime learning years are very much ahead of you. In addition to research, set aside a good chunk of time doing practical work. There are a great many skills that will be needed in the future, more than you can be expected to master, so pick what seems most at hand and attack it. These skills mostly relate to determining the best ways to manage food, water, and energy closer to the source.
This is an interesting question. Awareness of the troubling signs ahead is broad but not at all deep. I'll bet you can find a committed group of activists nearby. But the emphasis these days on taking local action works a bit against national scale organization. I also happen to believe people, young people especially, are more alienated from national politics than in past times, as they sense, correctly, very little difference in the governing parties. The time is right to get involved locally, but I wouldn't expect a mass movement a la the Vietnam era in the near future.
Ermyers, I am a part of the grassroots movement of sustainable farming. I am saddened to see all of these disheartened people who dwell in the downtrodden mind, and now thrive on negativity. Statements like "your life is f*cked, it's all over, there's no hope" are unlikely to help anyone.
The sustainable farming movement is called Permaculture, which is a term I'm sure is familiar to many readers on this forum, and is important because it has the potential to feed people without farm machinery. Permaculture practices can be completely independent of the fossil fuel/economic system, and there are many examples of this all over the world. In fact it's so successful that many permaculture farms are overwhelmed with abundance. It yields such results in the best of conditions, but it also has proven to yield impressive crops in an area of Jordan that was previously considered a blasted unfarmable wasteland.
I see that you live in Portland; I myself live in Eugene, and have started a permaculture farm here on my 20 acres, with the intention of enlivening the community here. You see, Permaculture is more than just a system of farming, it is about generating your OWN economy, so you don't need the doomed national one. Portland is fortunate to have a very large permaculture following. You can take intensive permaculture training courses which will arm you with the core principles and a diversity of practical and design skills. What's more, you do not need a 20 acre farm to practice it on. Even a suburban yard can be made useful with conversion to an Edible Forest Garden.
If you have not already done so, I recommend that you partake of some of the Permaculture instruction available here in Oregon. You will meet people who I believe are the kind of activists for which you seek, because they are willing to face the paradigm shift with positive personal action, and not just lament the loss of their flying car that folds into a briefcase. Putting your foot forward as an example to others in your community as one who practices a new cultural form that is materially frugal yet totally rewarding socially, will do more good than any amount of howling at a moribund bureaucracy or delusional captains of industry.
If you have any questions, I will do my best to answer them to the best of my knowledge.
Oooh--Perhaps: One sort of sustainable farming movement is called Permaculture. It's been the subject of quite a bit of debate but apparently little or no systematic research. And you won't want to base your survival on unsystematic non-research.
Before educating others, start educating yourself.
Here's a start:
- the global spare capacity for oil production is currently about 8mbd
- OPEC is running at about 70% of capacity
- the OIl storage (SPR, Cushing, Rotterdam, China's SPR) is full to the brim
- additional oil and oil product had to be stored on ships, about 100mb in total
- IEA has no clue what's the real global depletion rate...they admit they were off by more then 80% on their previous estimate only 2 years ago...the truth is, they have no clue...the concept of "depletion" is a complicated one...OPEC's data is a heavily guarded secret.
- despite IEA's "depletion"- whatever the number might be- world production capacity actually INCREASED since 2007!
- the world has huge and cheap reserves of Natural Gas. We just scratched the surface here in North America and we already have so much nat gas now, soon OIL WELLS will have to be shut down, as we'll soon have no place left to store the gas and flaring associated gas will not be allowed. Gas will soon replace oil in many of its applications.
- in the last few years the production of NGL (Natural Gas Liquids) increased considerably (OPEC alone 3mbd increase). NGL replaces oil in many applications, gasoline production included.
But to an extent so relatively negligible that it would be more accurate to say that it did not increase--as a continuation of the 2005-8 "bumpy plateau" that some were forecasting.
Yeap...you're so much smarter than me...I didn't think of it that way.
Let's go one negligible step farther...what bout we say the extent of the increase was "so relatively negligible", that it would be more accurate to say that it had actually decreased a bit...ROFTLMAO
The key datum was that the rate of growth had markedly fallen, precipitating a crisis of the credit/finance system that depends on that growth.
PS--not I'm smart, just been studying it all here and elsewhere for past zxy3 months.
Wait a minute. I recall in one of your previous posts you claimed the IQ of a genius.