May I just inject that there might be a question in future of what kinds of road surfaces these electric cars will be driving upon? Something other than asphalt, I presume?

Yes, I imagine they'll be driving on concrete.

Perhaps something low CO2, like this: http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2009/01/cement-that-eats-carbon-dioxide.html

Well Nick, I wonder about that. Cement roads are very costly compared with asphalt, and we seem to be moving into a world where communities and states, someday perhaps even the feds, have less to spend on maintaining roads, etc. Also, your linked article mentions that the CO2-absorbing magnesium silicate-based cement may have structural limitations compared with limestone-based portland cement, as well as requiring heat to make, although less than that necessary for portland cement. Then there's magnesium silicate availability, although common, not nearly so much as your friendly limestone mountain just outside of town.

OTOH, cement roads are rather permanent, so perhaps we do indeed need to make more of them before society can no longer afford to build and maintain them. Maybe they can be our pyramids. Every once-great civilization needs iconic structures to be remembered by, how much moron fitting for ours than our vast network of concrete freeways, overpasses and boulevards?

Cement roads are very costly compared with asphalt

Their upfront costs are higher, but they last longer and have lower maintenance, so their lifecycle costs are the same.

Highway engineers like them just fine.

Concrete is a major source of CO2 emissions (3% ? from memory).

Highway engineers like them just fine.

Actually not. Fine for first construction, in some places, but a bitch to repair and needs asphalt for an overlay.

In areas with unstable ground, concrete is a poor choice as it tilts and breaks.

I prefer cobblestones (such as Felicity Street two blocks from me). Longer lasting, no CO2 emissions, easier to maintain.

Alan

A bit bumpy, though, and labor intensive to install (though this could be a plus as millions fill the ranks of the unemployed).

Don't we really think that most roads will revert to gravel and dirt (=mud in the wet seasons)?

Dohboi,

Your comment brings up an interesting question-will it be cheaper -even though perhaps exteremely expensive -to maintain paved roads than to pay the price of conducting business -particularly essential business -on dirt and gravel roads?

Native gravel (stone suitable for roadway use with only minor processing) is not very common and while manufactured gravel-crushed stone- is still pretty cheap the future price is anybodys guess The mining,and hauling are highly ff dependent.Sfaik,nearly all the crushing is now done electrically,at least in places with an adequate grid.

My guess is that heavily traveled existing paved roads can be maintained for much less than the extra costs of trying to run vehicles of any kind on unpaved roads.A heavily traveled unpaved road
quickly becomes impasssable in most cases if there is a lot of rain and every vehicle on it will use substantially more fuel per mile traveled or ton hauled,wet or dry.Tire wear and other vehicle maintainence and repair expenses also go up sharply.

Areas with little essential traffic can probably get by with stone and gravel roads.

Lightly traveled roads will almost certainly revert to dirt with a little gravel applied occasionally.

Farm "roads"(really just vehicle pathways on private property) are commonly "maintained" by dumping whatever is handy in the worst ruts and mudholes-usually stones removed from fields and pastures in my nieghborhood,but also broken brick and block from demolition work if available.

People living on residential streets will find themselves doing the same thing eventually.

I do think that lots of Toto's superlight railroads will be built unless things go downhill too fast.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily the most rational thing, but short term expense is going to be the dominant concern, IMO. Many localities will find asphalt prices too high for anything but repair of the most crucial routes.

Deteriorating roads may actually be another way to discourage car use. As fewer and fewer people drive, there will be more and more pressure for car and truck drivers to bear the full cost of road and bridge building and repair. This could hasten the demise of well maintained roadways.

I would love to see a movement toward active de-pavement--tearing up much existing asphalt and concrete infrastructure and turning them into gardens and parks. I live a couple blocks away from a two-block stretch of city street where they did just that--tore up the street and planted trees, gardens, and lawns. It is a showpiece for the city, but oddly has not been replicated yet in many other neighborhoods.

I lived in Georgia for a while, and many older people there can clearly remember the first paved road that was made in their county. Somehow people lived for centuries in these counties without any paved roads for centuries. I'm not saying it was easy. But many of the same people also note some of the negatives that came with the network of paved roads--it was easier to get to the small towns, but also easier to leave them or drive through or around them, so most towns suffered economically and in other ways.

Many localities will find asphalt prices too high for anything but repair of the most crucial routes.

It's highly unlikely that asphalt prices will go that high. Oil prices are unlikely to ever stay above $200 in a sustained fashion: there are too many substitutes, and it would put too heavy a burden on the economies of oil importers.

Don't forget, asphalt currently only uses 400,000 barrels per day in the US - that's only 2 % of overall oil consumption. Given that even 100 years from now oil production will be 10-20M B/day (if there's the demand for it), asphalt paving can continue for a long time.

If there develops a consensus that paving maintenance costs are excessive, the obvious solution is to charge those costs to the long-haul trucks (especially over-weight trucks) that cause 90% of the damage. This will move freight to trains, where it belongs, and make roads last much longer.

In the short-term road maintenance will out-bid other uses for asphalt, and in the long-term gradually move to alternatives, chiefly concrete.

As we are discovering, nominal cost in US dollars is not as important as ability to pay. States and municipalities are out of money. Cut backs in every direction are now underway. Long-haul trucks should have been paying the lion's share of repair on roads on which they travel. But they haven't, by and large, and they probably won't.

Yeah, but cobblestones really suck if you are on a bicycle. Besides being hard to ride on in good conditions, they are treacherous in the rain.

The tires chosen have a significant impact.

And bicycle only "streets"/paths should last almost forever if well built.

Alan

And bicycle only "streets"/paths should last almost forever if well built.

Amen. If some virsus caused all humans to become violently ill in the presence of ICE vehicles and if we then used Human Powered Vehicles (HPV) for local, personal transport - we could save oil for building and maintaining asphalt bike paths.

On the other hand, cobble stone and washboard gravel roads significantly reduce the efficiency of HPVs. I remember when most of Norther Minnesota had gravel roads - washboard roads - what a pain they were.

cobblestone is not so bad for bicycles. Lower speed for more comfort & control (8 to 10 mph say) but quite bikeable..

Best Hopes,

Alan

Fine for first construction, in some places, but a bitch to repair and needs asphalt for an overlay.

Literature says that concrete life cycle cost is comparable to asphalt, and highway engineers tell me that asphalt isn't needed for repair. If you have sources/links for further info I'd be pleased to look at them.

Concrete highways are more cost effective. Repair: They last a long time. One can repair them with concrete. It costs more to do. But then the repairs last a long time too.