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Drumbeat: October 7, 2010
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Drumbeat: October 7, 2010
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A critique of Chapter “XVII” of the new book by Hirsch, Bezdek, and Wendling.
It’s a scandal to the peak oil movement (if there is such a thing). It’s destined to be divisive. I suspect it will go a long way toward discrediting peak oilers as part of an oil company conspiracy to both raise the price of oil and destroy the planet in the process. They attempt to create doubt about AGW in order to advance their own thesis about how to best mitigate declining oil production, which may be phrased as follows: BURN EVERYTHING.
I regard their claim to agnosticism at the outset to be a ruse. Theirs is by no means an even-handed look at both sides of an argument. It's boilerplate denialism. It’s clear by the end of the chapter that they don’t believe in human-caused climate change:
What do I “believe” about this issue? Not much. It’s not something I follow. I do believe that, regardless whether or not AGW is true, human beings are incapable of implementing the mass changes that would be necessary if it were true.
Reading the chapter in question, I was struck—even shocked—by the contradictions, absurdities, and selective quoting of their critique. One need only be a critical reader, not necessarily an AGW proponent, to see that their arguments are deceptive and inconsistent—a shotgun blast of everything they can muster. They seem to think the more "arguments," the better, but there is no singular, logical line of reasoning here.
I decided to spend just a couple of hours researching some of their claims—I try to have some semblance of a life—but it didn’t take long to find that Hirsch, et al. are misleading readers in Chapter “XVII” of their book.
Global temperature rise. “Temperatures have been flat or slightly declining over the past decade.” Just look at the charts here and judge for yourself what the trend looks like. The last ten years look like a fly speck on a mountain to me. Near the top of the page it even says that 2010 has been the warmest year in 131 years. Even if we grant the authors’ claim, it doesn’t mean that the preceding 125 years of warming (coinciding neatly with the oil age) didn’t happen because of carbon emissions. Need I add that oil production and therefore consumption has been “flat or slightly declining” for six years of “the past decade”? Might this have something to do with it?
Inconsistencies and inaccuracies regarding various earthly changes. I’d rather call it “inconsistencies and inaccuracies with which Hirsch, et al. represent these various so-called inconsistencies and inaccuracies.” Just a couple: They argue on the one hand that “remarkable weather events” (Hurricane Katrina, floods, etc.) are no basis on which to decide whether human emissions are causing climate change. Point granted. Then, on page 221, one finds this:
Point granted. I saw it myself: I was in Washington D. C. on February 18th, walking through snow drifts that were more like what we experience here in Maine.
However, you cannot argue out of one side of your mouth that extreme weather events are not evidence of human-caused global warming, then argue out of the other side of your mouth that extreme weather events are evidence that human-caused global warming is unfounded. You shouldn’t be using extreme weather event arguments, period. Besides, according to NASA Earth Observatory:
Hirsch,et al. conveniently forget to mention that winter ended abruptly in late February. I saw that myself, too. In Maine, the snow was gone by March, and leaves were coming out in late April—unprecedented in my experience. To our shock and dismay, our apple orchard began blooming three weeks early, and we lost 95% of our crop due to a May frost. The local newspapers ignorantly reported that an unusual frost killed the apple crop, but the frost was right on time. It was the early bloom that caused the disaster.
Another inconsistency: The authors argue that data of retreating ice caps are insufficient to establish a case for global warming because “ice coverage data are only available back to the last 1970s.” Compare that to their previous argument that a mere ten years of temperature data ARE sufficient to claim that the global warming trend has stopped.
The politicization of the science. The authors lament, “the next time you see a statement regarding the so-called scientific consensus about human causation, you might question the knowledge and objectivity of the source.” They then proceed—unbelievably—to present cases for “Climategate” and the “Oregon Petititon Project”!
Compare with:
Hirsch, et al.'s sources: Right-wing blogs such as Big Government and American Thinker.
My source: Wikipedia, which cites The Seattle Times and The New York Times.
Compare
with
and
No politics there!
Hirsch, et al. quote the Oregon Petition Project.
I quote Wikipedia and Skeptic magazine. (That's "Skeptic" as in "rational discourse," not "skeptic" as in "deny everything.")
I’d had enough at this point.
It’s a dismal experience watching the credibility of peak oil advocates go up in flames. I remember when you could only get the so-called Hirsch report from a high school website. I remember reading the 90-page document twice. But like Matt Simmons, who completely lost his mind over the Deepwater Horizon blowout, and Mike Ruppert, who went ga-ga with 9/11 conspiracies, Hirsch and co. have just self-immolated.
I'll close with a quotation of theirs that should depress our friends here on TOD who frequently comment on AGW:
What's amazing is how the more vocal advocates (I'd suppose you would call them that I don't know what else to call them) of peak oil and its implications seem to start out strong, make sense hit one of the park (in terms of writing), and then quickly degrade. The first is Pimental and Bidzek (don't remember the last name right off the bat) was showing how futile ethanol was then went on to try and curve fit coal production which was shown to be wrong, wrong, wrong. The other one I've remembered just go 180 is Jay Hansen of War Socialism who seems to think the elite want to change the system in a positive manner to see us through the century of decline. I think we overestimate peoples rationality just because they 'Get It'. We all have irrationalities and the more we talk the more obvious they become. However, I do not forgive Hirsch for this, if he wants to say peak oil is a bigger deal fine, but as you point out (well done btw) he whistling past the graveyard on climate change being not such a BFD.
P.S. If I am wrong on what I said above in reference to the individuals mentioned then please shoot me down on it. I'm more of a 'gleaner' which isn't nearly as good as reading full sources to get info, but its easier to do.
An old Art Robinson response to petition slander
http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1834.htm
As you may know, the so-called "Oregon Petition" was pure BS. Here's a description of the events from wikipedia. It all started with a letter sent by Seitz and an article which appeared to have been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, but was not. This obvious distortion back in 1997 resulted in a statement from the NAS saying:
The whole thing was pure denialist propaganda from a Creationist oriented organization...
E. Swanson
From the above link:
"The review article sent with the petition could not possibly have been mistaken for a PNAS reprint. I have published many research papers in PNAS. I am very familiar with reprint formats.
The PNAS claim originated because Frederick Seitz - past president of the National Academy and past president of Rockefeller University signed a letter that was circulated with the petition. (Dr. Seitz, like everyone else who has actively opposed the "enviro warmers" has been smeared with many false claims.) Also, the first signers of the petition were several rather famous members of the National Academy."
Do you understand the physics which says that there is a Greenhouse Effect which warms the Earth to a higher temperature than would otherwise be the situation? If so, why do you think that increasing the concentration of the gas which causes that Greenhouse Effect will some how NOT result in a stronger Greenhouse Effect? The result is called Global Warming, or, more generally, Climate Change. You are going to experience it if you live a few more decades, like it or not...
E. Swanson
Yes, I was once a physics major before changing my career path to radiology. I have been interested in what is now called peak oil for more than 50 years. Except for having lived at sea level for 40+ years and observed a few Pacific storms and ultra high tides, I have been less interested in climate and claim no expertise. I agree with other posters on this string that it is a near certainty that China, the US and other countries will continue to burn petroleum, coal and biomass as long as it is available. I find the repeated use of holocaust metaphors and other extreme tactics distasteful. Preaching climate change over the past two decades has been an exercise in futility. Nor do I expect this to change over the next two decades except as perhaps influenced by economic collapse, the price mechanism, rationing or absolute unavailability of imported oil say from blockade of the Strait of Hormuz.
Hi MikeB. I think it depends on what Hirsch means by "effectively mitigate" when he says,
"To effectively mitigate the enormous oil shortage problem while also trying to reduce world carbon dioxide emissions is impossible in our judgment."
The fact is there is not a way to "mitigate" the shortages with or without trying to reduce carbon dioxide emmissions.
The history shows there was no way to get the world to agree to reduce carbon emmissions heading into The Peak of oil production - there are too many countries with self interests to do otherwise.
The history shows there is no way to get the world to agree to reduce carbon emmissions now that we are at the peak - although the world leaders did put on a good dog-and-pony show pretending to try.
There will be no way in hell any countries will care about carbon emmissions on the Down Slope of energy scarcity - they didn't do it when we could afford it, they will certainly not do it when their populace is getting hungry and cold.
National and international "Mitigation" strategies for peak oil are a DELUSION. A Myth we still desperately cling too.
Mitigation strategies are for people with one foot left in Denial and one foot in Bargaining.
The financial collapse of industrial civilization is the last, best card we have to decrease carbon dioxide emmissions and to decrease demand for oil.
Maybe we should Thank Mother Nature our financial system is in the process of collapse.
Hello Snarlin,
re: "I think it depends on what Hirsch means by "effectively mitigate" when he says,"
Exactly so.
My recall is that Hirsch's idea is a "transition" to other LTF sources, such as coal-to-liquids.
OTOH, there is also the question of 1) "Is it possible to put into place a global industrial economy powered with an electrical-based infrastructure, powered by so-called 'renewables'?"
2) "If so, what is required?"
AFAIK, and occasionally try to bring up, there has not been any scientific approach to this question, in the sense of a "top-level" analysis.
It's also a possibility, I suppose, that using the remaining oil to achieve Part 2 (electrical-based infrastructure, with a somehow steady-state economy) - may or may not increase global warming further than it would increase otherwise. (italics needed.)
Keeping all the coal in the ground might help.
Still, there are a lot of things we could do.
I agree, although I think we should all do what we can to reduce our impact. Nonetheless I think only peak oil and economic collapse have the ability to force effective limits on human's ability to screw up the climate and ecosystems. Eventually the much smaller population of people will live in very different climates, with many species missing and many invasive ones established in almost every region.
In that light, reports such as this one mean very, very little. They can only effect what changes people would chose to make, but significant change will be forced, not chosen.
I find AGW more scary than peak oil right now. Im 22 years old (young) so there is a chance i will live long enough to se the end of oil and the worst of climate change.
Well, its just another way to die, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwELajFteTo&feature=channel
That is a good understanding of the situation.
Once "we" start shifting back to coal to cover the oil production shortfall, "we" will be accelerating the AGW machine even faster towards the cliff.
(I put "we" in quotes cause I'm an older geezer and will probably not be witness to the dark future you are seeing for yourself. Then again, one never knows how one's fortunes may turn out. You can predict all you want, but you are not in full control of your destiny --despite what the Tooth and Tea Fairy party goers proclaim.)
huh - someone say something? Like we are all full of it?
"shrug"
Either would be impossible in my judgment. Therefore I see nothing wrong with that statement. Of course what they are saying is that we should put all our energy and resources into trying to mitigate the oil shortage. Perhaps, but it will simply make no difference because there will be very little effort expended in trying to mitigate either.
That is, should we spend a pittance on trying to to mitigate the enormous oil shortage and another pittance in trying to reduce carbon emissions. Or should we instead spend two pittances in trying to mitigate the enormous oil shortage.
Really?
Ron P.
Oh, I agree, absolutely. In fact, it's the most insightful statement in the whole chapter...
...and revealing. I think it reveals their terror at the prospects for the future.
I can't believe they wrote the chapter out of incompetence.
I can't believe they wrote it out of connivance.
I believe Hirsch, et al., are simply appalled by our prospects. I read it this way: "AGW has to be wrong, because if it isn't wrong, we are intercoursed, absolutely."
The interview with Hirsch is very interesting to read. He is clearly very concerned about peoples welfare and does feel they really will suffer when oil starts to decline. (Energy bulletin has a link). But ignoring climate change is really a question of when do people suffer? Do they suffer soon, because of peak oil, or later, when the whole State of Florida is under water? Or the midwest corn and wheat belts are devestated? It is really about how long term a view do you have.
On the other hand, I find it just as frustrating how most climate change advocates refuse to study resource depletion.
I really like Bryn Davidson's Dynamic Cities site because of the way he deals with both at the same time: http://dynamiccities.squarespace.com/
For those of you out there trying to mitigate both, I have noticed that there is quite a bit of city money available for storm water remediation which could be repurposed into preparing for lack of city water and climate change droughts.
I think a lot of people are already suffering from climate change. As that Oxfam article points out, there were a record number of disasters this year that seem climate-linked. Drought in Africa causing starvation, the floods in Pakistan, the wildfires in Russia.
I don't think it's safe to assume that peak oil will cause massive suffering before climate change does.
Mike, I appreciate your extensive analysis of the climate change portion of the Hirsch book. That said, let me offer a perspective from the viewpoint of someone not as receptive to AGW and other components of climate change theory, yet still very concerned with peak oil. My current employment is with a large consulting engineering firm. Probably 90 percent of the engineers there and elsewhere in my professional circles express at best great skepticism and at worse total derision regarding global warming. These are highly educated professionals, usually with graduate degrees in engineering or the sciences. Some consider the whole climate change movement to be a secular religion with Al Gore as the high priest. Any presentation that linked peak oil and global warming would be a non-starter.
What I appreciated about the Hirsch book was that it maintained sufficient distance from climate change to allow a broader audience to hear the peak oil issues without the left-wing agenda that often seems to get attached. The book even gives a nod to the concept of global cooling and recommends research in that regard. It is a book I can offer to a audience that is not going to make it through The Party's Over or The Long Emergency, important as each book is.
We have reached a critical decision point, here in the USA at least, that finds us politically polarized and financially bankrupt. In that environment we have to find agreement to invest in passenger rail, in new urbanism and sustainable development, in localized food sources, while at the same time telling people that the party really is over and that we are entering an emergency period that will not end in our lifetimes. We cannot address two known crises, our financial condition and our energy dilemma, while also fully committing to an issue that still has major unknown elements. That may not be what my friends on the left want to hear, but in listening to both sides that is the reality that we as a society share.
Speaking as a "highly educated engineer with graduate degree" I would have to say that anyone in that catagory who looks into the AGW science and into the skeptical utterances either sees global climate change as a real potential threat or has a really bad cultural bias whic nullifies his education when that subject comes up. The left-right aspects of it amaze me until I accept that there is apparently a left-right issue with evolution. What does that tell you?
Also a model that encompasses both oil depletion and CO2 concentration growth will convince even the skeptical
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/04/fat-tail-in-co2-persistence.html
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-shock-model-analysis-relate...
You really can't have one without the other. That's what people seem to miss and Hirsch really missed it by a mile.
Yes. I would guess Tobacco's experience is because he lives in a "red" state. I'm an engineer, too, and don't think I've ever met an engineer who denied AGW. A lot of them don't have strong feelings about it - being engineers, they think they'll be able to fix it - but they don't deny the science.
All people have an irrational cranial organ (the brain) that was fashioned by the unintelligent design of Mother Nature and further molded by the unintelligent forces of surrounding culture.
Your AGW-denying engineers have a certain set of worldview models running in their heads.
AGW theory threatens the survival/continuance of those models.
This is why it must be denied --at all costs.
Same thing with Peak Oil.
Your PO-denying engineers have a certain set of worldview models running in their heads whose survival/continuance would be threatened by PO theory. This is why it too must be denied --at all costs.
Cutting carbon and becoming less dependent upon oil and other fossil fuels are perfectly compatible. Stipulating that 90 per cent of the engineers where you work are skeptical and express derision does not mean that there is any validity whatsoever in their views. I know engineers who believe in creationism. So an engineering degree does not necessarily result in an objective understanding of evolution or climate science.
Warming is measurable and is measured. Dispensing of Al Gore and others who believe in AGW by implying they are part of some sort of religious cult is a cop out. Challenge the science head on. Simply alleging that this is some sort of religious movement is an intellectually lazy cop out.
+10
Bingo.
You've seen through the fog of brainwash war.
Degree =! Wisdom
GW Bush had a degree from Harvard (and from Yale).
Shouldn't that be enough to falsify the hypothesis that having a degree means you understand something? (anything?)
My favourite example in my field is Dr. Behe, an accomplished biochemist and well published. It's too bad he doesn't believe in evolution and invented the irreducible complexity fallacy. Ph.D. at the end of the name and stupidity/bias are not mutually exclusive.
Very succinctly put! This is exactly what Hirsch, et al., fail to do. They don't say a thing about data. It's all about petitions, emails, politics, etc.
DFT,
Allow me to offer perspective from someone who works in the dark art of persuasion.
The above boils down to the rhetorical technique known as Appeal to Authority.
It is logically unsupportable and yet very effective.
Another rhetorical technique is Insertion of FUD factor (fear, uncertainty and doubt).
It too is logically unsupportable and yet very effective.
If you look hard enough, you might spot some FUDdy duddy stuff going on even in the midst of our own supposedly logical discussions.
p.s. I too work with these people.
Let me add to your observation that not only do they reject AGW immediately and without further consideration, but most also reject Peak Oil theory on the same basis.
That's why I keep my mouth shut at work.
I need to hold onto my day job.
You are not the only one!
Comments like this really turn me off. It's very revealing of the ignorance of people who utter it.
What if someone said:
I have no love for Al Gore. In fact, after the passive way he let GWB screw him after that election debacle, I sorta loathe him.
AGW was around long before AG came on the scene, and it will be around a long time after.
On another note, you say:
This is implying that our "financial condition" and "energy dilemma" do NOT have any "major unknown elements."
Hilarious!
I don't think we're really going to do anything about climate change, peak oil or no peak oil.
But we should still be very concerned about the effects of climate change. I was watching that History Channel documentary about our failing infrastructure the other day, and it mentioned that the biggest concern among engineers as far as infrastructure goes is climate change. Rising sea levels, more frequent flooding, droughts, etc. - it will have a huge impact on infrastructure not built to withstand it.
Should we build railways along coasts that might be inundated? Water-guzzling ethanol plants in areas that are likely to suffer severe drought?
The drought in the plains/southwest a few years ago was a taste of the effects climate change can have on infrastructure. Power plants were left high and dry, their intake pipes above the water line. Coal barges couldn't pass through waterways, because the water level was too low.
The financial situation only makes it worse, because we may not be able to afford to fix things if we get it wrong.
If we're going nuclear, floating plants would be the best bet. Good luck building them on the coast or near rivers when one is rising, the other is depleting.
Good thing we've got a lot of experience building floating nuclear plants.
Not sure if that is a tongue in cheek comment or not, but we DO have a lot of experience building floating nuclear plants - it's just that most of them have a huge deck of aircraft sitting on top, or are in tube shaped ships designed to "sink"
The Navy have been building them for decades, and they have an outstanding operation record. It would not be very difficult to optimise them purely for electricity production instead of ship propulsion.
Yep. The US has built more floating nuclear reactors than landbound ones.
GE and Westinghouse in particular have quite a stable of designs to choose from, suitable for mass production.
How I wish Hirsch, et al., had had the cojones to say just that! All their circumambulating around the specious, denialist camp just makes the situation WORSE.
Yeah. I could see simply ignoring the climate change issue, if you want to reach those who would otherwise dismiss you. But to actually jump on board with the camp who thinks Phil Jones is masterminding a huge global conspiracy in order to secure more funding...oy. That alienates a whole lot more people.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that peak oil will never be accepted by the mainstream. Partly because the price drop since $150/barrel has "discredited" the theory, partly because we don't have a spokesman even as respectable as Al Gore. Now that Matt Simmons has passed away, it looks like the public face of peak oil is going to be Mike Ruppert.
If oil depletion is widely accepted by the mainstream, it will be under a name other than "peak oil."
I do think that if "the public face of peak oil is going to be Mike Ruppert", then, "peak oil will never be accepted by the mainstream."
Fortunately I don't think the first condition will be met and the second won't occur.
Peak oil* is a lot closer to being accepted by the public and it has many faces.
* Depending on what exactly you mean by this, of course.
I have to wonder though, Jack, if the public (or the media) will make the distinction between proximate causes and ultimate cause.
For example, under constrained oil production conditions, the slightest disruption can wreak havoc on the markets--some event in the Strait of Hormuz, say--and so that disruption will catch all the blame, become the "reason" for the shortage/high prices.
Or that charming catch-all, "lack of investment." "We wouldn't have this decline if it weren't for a lack of investment in X."
Or oil that is "kept off-limits." "We wouldn't have this shortage if environmentalists hadn't kept all that oil in X off-limits."
And so it goes.
"I'm becoming more and more convinced that peak oil will never be accepted by the mainstream."
Atlas shrugged. He knew Peak Oil had a marvelous shrink, & didn't care if (s)he was accepted or not.