World Energy and Population: Trends to 2100
Posted by Stoneleigh on October 17, 2007 - 12:30pm in The Oil Drum: Canada
Topic: Environment/Sustainability
Tags: carrying capacity, energy, environment, original, overshoot, population, sustainability [list all tags]
This is a guest post by GliderGuider. It is also available on the author's own website.
Throughout history, the expansion of human population has been supported by a steady growth in our use of high-quality exosomatic energy. The operation of our present industrial civilization is wholly dependent on access to a very large amount of energy of various types. If the availability of this energy were to decline significantly it could have serious repercussions for civilization and the human population it supports.
This paper constructs production models for the various energy sources we use and projects their likely supply evolution out to the year 2100. The full energy picture that emerges is then translated into a population model based on an estimate of changing average per-capita energy consumption over the century. Finally, the impact of ecological damage is added to the model to arrive at a final population estimate.
This model, known as the "World Energy and Population" model, or WEAP, suggests that the world's population will decline significantly over the course of the century.
Introduction
During the historically recent period of global industrialization, the level of human population has been closely related to the amount of energy we have used. Over the last forty years, the per capita energy consumption has averaged about 1.5 tonnes of oil equivalent (toe) per person per year. As industrialization has progressed, the amount of per capita energy used has also increased, rising from a global average of 1.2 toe per person in 1966 to 1.7 toe per person in 2006. As the global energy supply tripled over that time, the population has doubled.
Figure 1 shows the close relationship between global energy consumption,
world GDP and global population and implies that an overall increase in the energy supply has supported the increase in population. Can we assume that there would be negative consequences for the human population if our energy supplies should start to diminish? In this paper I shall present my estimate of the world energy situation over the next century, and tie that to a projection of the human population from now to 2100.

Figure 1: World Energy, GDP and Population, 1965 to 2003
Methodology
The analysis in this paper is supported by a model of trends in energy production. The model is based on historical data of actual energy production, connected to projections that are drawn from the thinking of various expert energy analysts as well as my own interpretation of future directions.
The current global energy mix consists of oil (36%), natural gas (24%), coal (28%), nuclear (6%), hydro (6%) and renewable energy such as wind and solar (about 1%). Historical production in each category (except for renewable energy) has been taken from the BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2007. In order to permit comparison between categories I use a standard measure called the tonne of oil equivalent (toe). Using this measure, well-known conversion factors permit the energy obtained from different sources to be easily compared. While this approach doesn't take into account the varying efficiencies of different sources like oil and hydroelectricity, it does provide a well accepted standard for general comparison.
We will first examine each of the energy categories separately, applying the development parameters that seem most appropriate to each. For each component I will define as clearly as possible the factors and parameters I have considered in building its scenario. This will allow you to decide for yourself whether my assumptions seem plausible. We will then combine them into a single global energy projection.
Once the energy picture has been established we will explore the effect the projected changes in energy supply may have on the world population. Once that baseline has been developed, we will incorporate the probable effects of ongoing ecological damage to arrive at a final projection of human numbers over the next century.
Notes
The WEAP model was developed as a simple Excel spreadsheet. The timing of significant energy-related events and rates of increase or decrease of supply were chosen through careful study of the available literature. In some cases different authors had diverging opinions on these matters. To resolve those situations I have relied on my own analysis and judgment.
As a result the model has remained open to the influence of my personal biases. I make no apology for this; such scenarios always reflect the opinions of their authors, and it is best to be clear about that from the start. Nevertheless, I have made deliberate efforts throughout to be objective in my choices, to base my projections on observed trends in the present and recent past, and to refrain from wishful thinking at all times.
The WEAP model presents a global aggregation of the effects of energy and ecological factors on world population. Although there is some discussion of regional or national differences (which would be expected to have a profound impact on the course of events in those places), the model does not directly incorporate such influences. While you may see this lack of granularity as a shortcoming, the paper is intended to give a higher level view. Its purpose is to establish a broad conceptual framework within which such regional disparities may be understood.
This paper will not present any prescriptive measures. The analysis is intended solely to clarify a "most likely" future scenario, based purely on the situation as it now exists and will probably unfold. You will not find any specific suggestions for what we ought to do, or any proposals based on the assumption that we can radically alter the behaviour of people or institutions over the short term. While the probability of such changes will increase if the global situation shifts dramatically, such considerations would introduce a level of uncertainty into the analysis that would make it conceptually intractable. The same constraint holds true for new technologies. You will not find any discussion of fusion or hydrogen power, for example.
Energy Component Models
Oil
The analysis of our oil supply starts from the recognition that it is finite, non-renewable, and subject to effects which will result in a declining production rate in the near future. This situation is popularly known as Peak Oil. The key concept of Peak Oil is that after we have extracted about half the total amount of oil in place the rate of extraction will reach a peak and then begin an irreversible decline.
This happens both for individual oil fields and for larger regions like countries, but for different reasons. In individual oil fields this phenomenon is caused by geological factors inherent to the structure of the oil reservoir. At the national or global level it is caused by logistical factors. When we start producing oil from a region, we usually find and develop the biggest, most accessible oil fields first. As they go into decline and we try to replace the lost production, the available new fields tend to be smaller with lower production rates that don't compensate for the decline of the large fields they are replacing.
Oil fields follow a size distribution consisting of a very few large fields and a great many smaller ones. This distribution is illustrated by the fact that 60% of the world's oil supply is extracted from only 1% of the world's active oil fields. As one of these very large fields plays out it can require the development of hundreds of small fields to replace its production.
The theory behind Peak Oil is widely available on the Internet, and some introductory references are given here, here and here.
Timing
There is much debate over when we should expect global oil production to peak and what the subsequent rate of decline might be. While the rate of decline is still hotly contested, the timing of the peak has become less controversial. Recently a number of very well informed people have declared that the peak has arrived. This brave band includes such people as billionaire investor T. Boone Pickens, energy investment banker Matthew Simmons (author of the book "Twilight in the Desert" that deconstructs the state of the Saudi Arabian oil reserves), retired geologist Ken Deffeyes (a colleague of Peak Oil legend M. King Hubbert) and Dr. Samsam Bakhtiari (a former senior scientist with the National Iranian Oil Company).
My position is in agreement with the luminaries mentioned above, that the peak is happening as I write this (in late 2007). I have confirmed this to my own satisfaction by examining the pattern of oil production and oil prices over the last three years. I discovered in the process that crude oil production peaked in May 2005 and has shown no growth since then despite a doubling in price and a dramatic surge in exploration activity.
Decline Rate
The post-peak decline rate is another question. The best guides we have are the performances of oil fields and countries that are known to be already in decline. Unfortunately, those decline rates vary all over the map. The United States, for instance, has been in decline since 1971 and has lost two thirds of its capacity since then, for a decline rate of about 3% per year. On the other hand, the North Sea basin is showing an annual decline around 10%, and the giant Cantarell field in Mexico is losing production at rates approaching 20%
per year.
In order to create a realistic decline model for the world's oil, I have chosen to follow the approach of Dr. Bakhtiari in his WOCAP model. He assumes a gradually increasing decline rate over time, starting off very gently and ramping up as the years go by. WOCAP has proven to be fairly accurate so far, and I have adopted a variant of it.
The main difference is that my model is a little less aggressive.
Where WOCAP predicts that production will fall from 4000 million tonnes of oil per year (Mtoe/yr) now to 2750 Mtoe/yr in 2020, my model doesn't reach that point until 2030. The WEAP model increases from a decline rate of 1% per year in 2015 to a constant rate of 5% per year after 2040. Even such a relatively conservative decline model gives astonishing results over the course of the century, as shown in Figure 2.

Figure 2: Global Oil Production, 1965 to 2100
The Net Export Problem
Before we leave the subject of oil, some comments about oil exports are in order. The graph in Figure 2 shows the aggregate oil production for the world. However, the world is not a uniform place of oil production and consumption. Some countries are net exporters of oil, while some are net importers who buy the exporters' oil on the international market.
In most countries the demand for oil is constantly increasing. This applies especially to oil exporting nations, where rising oil prices have stimulated economic growth. This additional growth has in turn resulted in a higher domestic demand for oil which is satisfied out of their surplus before it is made available for export. While the nation's oil production is increasing this does not pose much of a problem. When the exporting nation's production peaks and begins to decline however, something ominous happens: the amount of oil available for export declines at a faster rate than the production decline. This has become known as the "net oil export problem".
Consider this example. Say an exporting country produces one million barrels per day, and its citizens consume 500,000 barrels per day. This leaves 500,000 barrels for export. Then production declines by 5% per year. After one year their production is 950,000 barrels per day. At the same time, their economy is booming, resulting in an increased demand of 5%. This leads to a consumption of 525,000 barrels per day. That leaves only 425,000 barrels for export, for a 15% decline in exports. A graph over a number of years demonstrates the consequences:

Figure 3: Net Export Example
At the end of 8 years, although the country is still producing over 700,000 barrels per day its exports have dropped to zero. This pattern has already been seen in Indonesia, the UK and the USA, each of whom was once a major oil exporter but is now a net importer.
This effect is already visible on the world oil market. Figure 4 shows a graph of total world exports over the last 5 years. An overlaid trend line (a second order polynomial for those who are interested) shows the pattern an imminent, rapid drop in the world's net oil exports.

Figure 4: World Net Oil Exports 2002 to 2013
Such changes in exports are very worrisome for importing nations. The USA, for instance, imports about two thirds of its oil requirements. If the oil export market should suddenly begin to dry up as Figure 4 suggests it could, the US would be forced to make some very hard choices. These could include accepting a drastic reduction in industrial activity, GDP and lifestyle, abandoning the international oil market and enter into long-term supply contracts with producing nations, or even military action to secure foreign oil supplies (as may have already been attempted in Iraq).
I am indebted to the work of Jeffrey Brown and his Export Land Model for these insights.
Natural Gas
The supply situation with natural gas is very similar to that of oil. This makes sense because oil and gas come from the same biological source and tend to be found in similar geological formations. Gas and oil wells are drilled using very similar equipment. The differences between them have everything to do with the fact that oil is a viscous liquid while natural gas is, well, a gas.
While oil and gas will both exhibit a production peak, the slope of the post-peak decline for gas will be significantly steeper due to its lower viscosity. To help understand why, imagine two identical balloons, one filled with water and the other with air. If you set them down and let go of their necks, the air-filled balloon will empty much faster than the one filled with water. A gas reservoir works much the same way. When it is pierced by the well, the gas flows out under its own pressure. As the reservoir empties the flow can be kept relatively constant until the gas is gone, then it will suddenly stop.
Gas reservoirs show the same size distribution as oil reservoirs. As with oil, we found and drilled the big ones first. The reservoirs that are coming on-line now are getting progressively smaller, requiring a larger number of wells to be drilled to recover the same volume of gas. For example, the number of gas wells drilled in Canada between 1998 and 2004 went up by 400% (from 4,000 wells in 1998 to 16,000 wells in 2004), while the annual production stayed constant. All this means that the natural gas supply will exhibit a similar bell-shaped curve to what we saw for oil.
One other difference between oil and gas is the nature of their global export markets. Compared to oil, the gas market is quite small. This is due to the difficulty in transporting a gas as opposed to a liquid. While oil can be simply pumped into tankers and back out again, natural gas must first be liquefied (which takes substantial energy), transported in special tankers at low temperature and high pressure, then re-gasified at the destination which requires yet more energy. As a result most of the world's natural gas is shipped by pipeline. This pretty well limits gas to national and continental markets. That has an important implication: if a continent's gas supply runs low it is very difficult to supplement it with gas from somewhere else that is still well-supplied.
The peak of world gas production may not occur until 2025, but two things are sure: we will have even less warning than we had for Peak Oil, and the subsequent decline rates may be shockingly high. For the gas model I have chosen as the peak a plateau from 2025 to 2030. This is followed by a rapid increase in decline to 8% per year by 2050, remaining at a constant 8% per year for the following 50 years. This gives the production curve shown in Figure 5.

Figure 5: Global Natural Gas Production, 1965 to 2100
Coal
Coal is the ugly stepsister of fossil fuels. It has a terrible environmental reputation, going back to its first widespread use in Britain in the 1700s. London's coal-fired "peasoup" fogs were notorious, and damaged the health of hundreds of thousands of people. Nowadays the concern is less about soot and ash than about the carbon dioxide that results from burning coal. Weight for weight, coal produces more CO2 than either oil or gas. From an energy production standpoint coal has the advantage of very great abundance. Of course this abundance is a huge negative when considered from the perspective of global warming.
Most coal today is used to generate electricity. As economies grow, so does their demand for electricity, and if electricity is used to replace some of the energy lost due to the decline of oil and natural gas, this will put yet more upward pressure on the demand for coal. At the moment China is installing two to three new coal-fired power plants per week, and has plans to continue at this pace for at least the next decade.
Just as we saw with oil and gas, coal will exhibit an energy peak and decline. One factor in this is that we have in the past concentrated on finding and using the highest grade of coal, anthracite. Much of what remains consists of lower grade bituminous and lignite. These grades of coal produce less energy when burned, and require the mining of ever more coal to get the same amount of energy.
The Energy Watch Group has conducted an extensive analysis of coal use over the next century, and I have adopted their "best case" conclusions as a starting point for this model. The model projects a continued rise in the use of coal out to a peak in 2025. As global warming begins to have serious effects there will be mounting pressure to reduce coal use, resulting in a slightly more aggressive decline slope than the one projected by the Energy Watch Group.
Unfortunately, due to its abundance and our need to replace some of the energy lost from the depletion of oil and gas, the decline in coal use will not be as dramatic as seen with those fossil fuels. The model has the annual decline in coal use increasing evenly from 0% in 2025 to a steady 5% annual decline in 2100. These assumptions give the curve shown in Figure 6.

Figure 6: Global Coal Production, 1965 to 2100
Of course this use of coal carries with it the threat of increased global warming due to the continued production of CO2. Many hopeful words have been written about the possibility of alleviating this worry by implementing Carbon Capture and Storage. CCS usually involves the capture and compression of CO2 from power plant exhaust, which is then pumped into played-out gas fields for long term storage.
This technology is still in the experimental stage, and there is much skepticism surrounding the security of storing such enormous quantities of CO2 in porous rock strata. Such plans play little part in this analysis, although later when we discuss the intersection of ecological degradation with declining energy I will assume that little has been done compared to the scale of global CO2 generation.
Nuclear
The graph in Figure 7 is the result of a data synthesis and a bit of projection. I started with a table of reactor ages from the IAEA (reprinted in a presentation to the Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas), the table of historical nuclear power production numbers from the BP Statistical Review of World Energy 200 and a table from the Uranium Information Centre showing the number of reactors that are installed, under construction, planned or proposed worldwide.
The interesting thing about the table of reactor ages is that it shows that the vast majority of them (361 out of 439 or 82% to be precise) are between 17 and 40 years old. The number of reactors at each age varies of course, but the average number of reactors in each year is about 17. The number actually goes over 30 in a couple of years.
Two realizations form the basis for my model of nuclear power. The first is that since reactors have a finite lifespan averaging around 40 years, a lot of the world's reactors are rapidly approaching the end of their useful life. The second is that the replacement rate inferred from the UIC planning table is only about three to four reactors per year for at least the next ten years, and probably the next twenty.
These two facts mean that within the next twenty years we will have retired over 300 reactors, but will have built only 60. So by 2030 we will have seen a net loss of 240 or more reactors: over half the present stock. Since these reactors are all broadly similar in size (a bit less than 1 GW on average) that means we can calculate the approximate world generating capacity at any moment in time, with reasonable accuracy out to 2030 or so.
The model takes a generous interpretation of the available data. It assumes we will build 3 GW of nuclear capacity per year for the next ten years (about what is under construction now), 4.5 GW per year for the subsequent ten years (these are the reactors in the planning stages that will probably end up being built), and 6 GW/year for the 20 years following that from the reactors that have been proposed. It assumes a rising construction profile because I think we will start to get desperate for power in about 20 years - this is the reason reactor completions double over that period compared to today.

Figure 7: Global Nuclear Production, 1965 to 2100
The drop in capacity between now and 2030 is the result of new construction not keeping pace with the rapid decommissioning of large numbers of old reactors. The rise after 2030 comes from my prediction that we will double the pace of reactor construction in about 2025 when the energy situation starts to become visibly desperate and we realize that most of the reactors from the 1970-1990 building boom are out of service. The final decline after 2060 comes from my expectation that we will start losing global industrial capacity in a big way in a few decades due to the decline in oil and natural gas. As a result, by 2060 we won't have the capability we would need to replace all our aging nuclear reactors.
The argument for a peak in nuclear capacity in 2010 and the subsequent drop is very similar to the logistical considerations behind Peak Oil - the big pool of reactors is about to be exhausted, and we're not building enough replacements. In fact, to stay even with the rate of decommissioning of our current reactor base we would need to build 17 new reactors a year (more than 5 times the number that are now on the books) forever. That seems very unlikely given the capital, regulatory and public relations environments that the nuclear industry is now operating in.
As an aside, the drop in generating capacity after 2010 means that any concerns about outstripping the supply of mined uranium (currently about 50,000 tonnes per year worldwide) are avoided altogether.
Hydro
If coal is the ugly stepsister, hydro is one of the fairy godmothers of the energy story. Environmentally speaking it's relatively clean, if perhaps not quite as clean as once thought. It has the ability to supply large amounts of electricity quite consistently. The technology is well understood, universally available and not too technically demanding (at least compared to nuclear power). Dams and generators last a long time.
It has its share of problems, though they tend to be quite localized. Destruction of habitat due to flooding, the release of CO2 and methane from flooded vegetation, and the disruption of river flows are the primary issues. In terms of further development the main obstacle is that in many places the best hydro sites are already being used.
Nevertheless, it is an attractive energy source. Development will probably continue in the future at a similar pace as in the past, at least until loss of technological capacity or demand makes further development moot.
In order to project the growth rate of hydro power, I used a second order polynomial curve fitted to the production history of the past 40 years. Using such a projection assumes that future development will look very much like the past, at least until an external influence alters the course of events. The projection is shown in Figure 8. One thing that gives confidence in the reliability of the projection is the high correlation of the chosen curve to the actual data, as shown in the R-squared value of .994 (the closer to 1.0 the better the fit).

Figure 8: Projected Hydro Production
The model for hydro power shown in Figure 9 has capacity growing to about double its current level by 2060. It then declines back to the current level by 2100. The decline in the second half of the century is ascribed to a general loss of global industrial capacity and a reduction in water flows due to global warming. These are the external influences mentioned above.

Figure 9: Global Hydro Production, 1965 to 2100
Renewable Energy
Renewable energy includes such sources as wind, photovoltaic and thermal solar, tidal and wave power etc. Assessing their probable contribution to the future energy mix is one of the more difficult balancing acts encountered in the construction of this model. The whole renewable energy industry is still in its infancy. At the moment, therefore, it shows little impact but enormous promise. While the global contribution is still minor (at the moment renewable technologies supply less than 1% of the world's total energy needs) its growth rate is exceptional. Wind power, for example, has experienced annual growth rates of 30% over the last decade.
Proponents of renewable energy point to the enormous amount of research being conducted and to the vast range of approaches being explored. They also point out correctly that the incentive is enormous: the development of renewable alternatives is crucial for the sustainability of human civilization. All this awareness, work, and promise give the nascent industry an aura of strength verging on invincibility. That in turn supports a conviction among its promoters that all things are possible.
Of course, the real world is full of unexpected constraints and unwarranted optimism. One such constraint has shown up in the field of biofuels, where a realization of the conflict between food and fuel has recently broken through into public consciousness. One can also see excessive optimism at work in the same field, where dreams of replacing the world's gasoline with ethanol and biodiesel are now struggling against the limits of low net energy in biological processes.
The key questions in developing a believable model are, what is the probable long-term growth rate of renewable energy going to be over the next 50 years, and what amount of energy will it ultimately contribute?
While I do not subscribe to the pessimistic notion that renewables will make little significant contribution, it's equally unrealistic to expect that they will achieve a dominant position in the energy marketplace. This is primarily because of their late start relative to the imminent decline of oil, gas and nuclear power, as well as their continued economic disadvantage relative to coal.
In order to project a realistic growth rate for renewable energy I have used the same approach as with hydro above. Data on the global production of renewable energy from 1980 to 2005, collected by the Energy Information Agency , was used as the starting point for the projection shown in Figure 10. As in the earlier use of this technique for the projection of hydro production, the closeness of the fit (again a second order polynomial giving an R-squared value of .994) gives a high degree of confidence in the projection.

Figure 10: Projected Renewable Production
This technique has a couple of shortcomings. First, it aggregates all renewable energy sources: geothermal, solar, wind, biomass etc. Because some of these sources are still in their infancy, it is possible that they may exhibit higher growth rates in the future, thus making the projection too conservative. Balancing this of course is the possibility that they may run into unexpected constraints, skewing the outcome in the other direction. The second problem is that due to the youth of the industry large discontinuities in production from year to year may render the curve fit unreliable.
These objections have been addressed by using only the most recent 15 years of data as the basis for the projection. This encompasses the years of highest growth in the wind and solar industries, and as we see from the high correlation of the fit, the yearly variation from the curve is quite low. On balance, the projection seems suitable as a basis for the model.
I have placed the peak contribution in 2070. Production declines following the peak because many renewable energy sources (e.g. wind turbines and photovoltaic solar panels) are dependent on a high level of technology and manufacturing capacity. Still, the model foresees renewables contributing more to the energy picture at the end of the century than any other source except for hydro.

Figure 11: Global Renewable Energy Production, 1965 to 2100
Putting the Energy Sources in Perspective

Figure 12: Energy Use by Source, 1965 to 2100
Figure 12 shows all the above curves on a single graph. This gives a sense of the relative timing of the various production peaks, as well as showing the contribution of each energy source relative to the others over time.
As you can see, fossil fuels are by far the most important contributors to the world's current energy mix, but all three are in rapid decline by the second half of the century. Hydro and renewables are making respectable contributions by mid-century, while nuclear power plays a constant role. By the end of the century, oil and natural gas have dropped out of the picture almost entirely, while the dominant players are hydro, renewable sources , coal and nuclear power, in that order.

Figure 13: Total Energy Use, 1965 to 2100
Figure 13 has all the energy curves added together to show the overall shape of total world energy consumption. This graph aggregates all the rises, peaks and declines to give a sense of the complete energy picture out to 2100. The graph shows a strong peak in about 2020, with a steepening decline out to 2100. The main reason for the decline is the loss of oil, gas, and (to a lesser extent) coal. The decline is cushioned by an increase in hydro and renewables over the middle of the century, and averages out to a little less than 3% per year.
Unfortunately, the loss of the enormous contribution of fossil fuels means that the total amount of energy available to humanity by the end of the century may be less than one fifth of the amount we use now, and less than one sixth the amount we will use at our energy peak a decade or so from now. This shortfall contains an ominous message for our future. That message is the subject of the remainder of this paper.
The Effect of Energy Decline on Population
As I said in the introduction, human population growth has been enabled by the growth in our energy supply. It is now time to examine this relationship a little more closely, and to think about the implications of the global energy model we have just assembled.
The Historical and Current Situation
According to an analysis of historical human energy use published by Western Oregon University, while per our capita food energy consumption has remained relatively constant (within a range of 3:1 over most of human history), the energy we each use for the rest of our activities has grown almost thirty times from our early agricultural days to the consumption we now see in developed countries. The world's population has increased by a similar amount in that time, from 200 million in 1 CE to 6.6 billion today.
One of the more significant results from the WOU study is the non-food energy consumption of an "advanced agricultural man" from northern Europe in the 1400s. When that number of 20,000 kilo-calories per day is converted to our standard measure of tonnes of oil equivalent, it turns out to be 0.75 toe per year. The consumption of an "early industrial man" in 1875 was estimated to be 2.5 toe per year. For comparison, the global average per capita non-food energy consumption in 1965 was only 1.2 toe per year.
There is of course a great disparity in global energy consumption. The combined populations of China, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (2.7 billion) today use an average of just 0.8 toe per person per year, compared to the global average of 1.7 and the American consumption of about 8.0.
It is reasonable to expect that a declining world energy supply would affect countries at opposite ends of the consumption spectrum quite differently. The picture will be further complicated by the effects of declining net oil exports on oil importing nations, and whether those nations are rich or poor. While a rigorous analysis of these effects is beyond the scope of this paper, we will look at some of the probable short and medium term impacts. This will be in addition to our examination of the overall effect of energy decline on global population that is the main objective of the paper.
Long-Term and Aggregate Effects
As shown in the example of the "agricultural man" above, human beings need a significant amount of energy to sustain even a relatively poor quality of life. This implies that as energy supplies decline and per capita energy falls, the quality of life of those on the bottom end of the consumption scale will be drastically affected. The degree of the effect will depend on how close they are to a bare subsistence level of consumption.
In our civilization, scarce goods are allocated by price: the scarcer a necessary good is, the higher its price will go. Those who can afford to pay can acquire it at the expense of those who cannot. Those who are out-bid have to reduce their consumption or even do without. This applies as much to energy as an aggregate commodity as it does to any other good.
The extent to which someone can survive a drop in energy supplies and the resulting rise in energy prices depends primarily on whether they have other consumption they can forego to allow them to pay for the energy they need. Those at the bottom of the economic ladder have no ability to reallocate their discretionary spending for this purpose, because they have no discretionary spending. As a result, they will be out-bid and will have to do without some amount of fuel or electricity. If their consumption is already so low that it barely sustains them, such an occurrence would obviously be catastrophic.
Over 4.5 billion of the world's 6.6 billion occupants live in countries that have per capita energy consumptions under 2.0 toe per year. As energy supplies decline, these countries are at risk of vast increases in mortality as they are out-bid in the global energy marketplace and their populations begin to fall below the minimum energy level required for sustaining life.
Short Term and Regional Effects
These effects will result primarily from Peak Oil and the coming net export crisis. As the effects of declining exports are felt, the market price of oil will escalate very rapidly.
Some oil producing countries will choose to sell much of their product on the international market for the money it will bring. Such actions may result in a deprived and discontented population, giving rise to fuel riots and even the threat of revolution. Other producers may decide to keep their oil at home to preferentially supply their own citizens' needs. This will result in a wave of nationalization of oil resources so that governments can direct its distribution and control the local price.
Oil importing nations will face a choice similar to the poor nations described in the previous section. They will need to reallocate their discretionary money toward the purchase of oil. If that cannot buy enough to satisfy their needs they will be forced to reduce their consumption. If they are unwilling to do either, and have the means available, they may decide to secure their oil supply by force of arms. Nearby producing nations that are keeping (or thought to be keeping) their oil off the world market will be at special risk of becoming targets in a resource war. Some aspects of this geopolitical energy calculus may have already come into play in the American invasion of Iraq.
The net oil export crisis may well be the defining geopolitical event of the next decade.
The Population Model
The population model is based mainly on the long-term aggregate effects of energy decline. The mechanisms of the population decline it projects are not specified. However, it is likely that they will include such things as major regional food shortages, a spread of diseases due to a loss of urban medical and sanitation services and an increase in deaths due to exposure to heat and cold.
The main interaction in the model is between the energy available at any point in time (shown in Figure 13) and an estimate of average global per capita consumption. Current global consumption is about 1.7 toe per person per year, and in the model that declines evenly to a consumption of 1.0 toe per person per year by 2100. To put that in perspective, the world average in 1965 was 1.2, so the model is not predicting a huge decline below that level of consumption. An increase in the disparity between rich and poor nations is also likely, but that effect is masked by this approach.
Under those assumptions, the world population would rise to about 7.5 billion in 2025 before starting an inexorable decline to 1.8 billion by 2100.

Figure 14: World Population with Declining Energy, 1965 to 2100
Effects of Ecological Damage
In order to complete the picture of human population over the next century it is necessary to bring some ecological insights to bear.
According to Wikipedia:
Ecology is the scientific study of the distribution and abundance of living organisms and how the distribution and abundance are affected by interactions between the organisms and their environment.
There are two ecological concepts that are the keys to understanding humanity's situation on our planet today. The first is Carrying Capacity, the second is Overshoot.
Carrying Capacity
The carrying capacity of an environment is established by the quantity of resources available to the population that inhabits it. The usual limiting resource is assumed to be the food supply. For plants and animals this definition is easily applied. The fluctuations in predator-prey relationships (e.g. wolves and deer or foxes and rabbits), or the number of buffalo that can live on a given area of prairie grassland are classic examples.
When we try to apply this definition to human beings we run into problems. In the animal world if a population is below the carrying capacity of its environment it will expand, and when it reaches the carrying capacity its numbers will stabilize. In the case of human beings, however, our numbers have been growing for a very long time, and in fact are still growing, though more slowly. Does this mean that we have not yet reached the carrying capacity of the Earth, or are other factors at work?
The missing consideration is, of course, the type of resource consumption by the individuals in the population.
In the animal world the main resource consumed is food, which is a fairly constant requirement. It may fluctuate somewhat due to such factors as growth or seasonal energy needs, but on average the amount of food that any organism needs to live is relatively stable. Since animals have few resource needs outside food and water it is relatively easy (at least conceptually) to establish the carrying capacity of a given environment for a particular species.
Even for humans, as we saw earlier, the amount of food we require to survive varies within only a small range – say 2000 to 5000 kilocalories per day, depending on our level of activity. What is variable, makes us distinct from other animals and makes the question of human carrying capacity more complicated is of course the level of non-food resources that humans consume. This can and does vary all over the map. In the previous sections we have been using energy as a proxy for all these resources.
My preferred definition of carrying capacity is:
The carrying capacity of a given environment is the maximum number of individuals that the environment can support sustainably at a given level of activity.
Sustainability is defined as follows:
A sustainable process or state is one that can be maintained at a certain level indefinitely. A sustainable process or state should provide optimal conditions for all organisms affected by it. A sustainable process or state must not threaten, directly or indirectly, the viability of any of the organisms affected by it.
Given these definitions it is intuitively obvious that the current level of human activity is not sustainable. The fact that it has been possible at all is mainly because of the use of fossil fuel, a non-renewable resource. That use is by definition unsustainable, and Peak Oil is graphic evidence of that fact.
Overshoot
A species is said to be in overshoot if its numbers (or more properly, its aggregate level of consumption) has exceeded the carrying capacity of its environment.
When a population rises beyond the carrying capacity of its environment, the existing population cannot be supported and must eventually decline to match or fall below the carrying capacity. A population usually cannot stay in overshoot for long. The rapidity and extent of the decline depend on the degree of overshoot and whether the carrying capacity is eroded during the overshoot, as shown in Figure 15. William Catton's book "Overshoot" is recommended for a full treatment of the subject.
There are two ways a population in overshoot can regain its balance with the carrying capacity of its environment. If the population stays constant or continues rising, its activity (expressed in terms of per capita resource consumption and waste production) must fall. If per capita consumption stays constant, population numbers must decline.
Populations in serious overshoot always decline. This is seen in wine vats when the yeast cells die after consuming all the sugar from the grapes and bathing themselves in their own poisonous alcoholic wastes. It's seen in predator-prey relations in the animal world, where the depletion of the prey species results in a reduction in the number of predators. This population reduction is known as a crash or a die-off, and can be very rapid.

Figure 15: Overshoot
It is an axiom of ecology that overshoots degrade the carrying capacity of the environment. This is illustrated in the declining "Carrying Capacity" curve in Figure 15. In the case of humanity, our use of oil has allowed us to perform prodigious feats of resource extraction and waste production that would simply have been inconceivable without the one-time gift of oil. Fossil fuels in general and oil in particular have made it possible for humanity to stay in a state of overshoot for a long time.
At the same time, the use of fossil fuel and other high-intensity energy has allowed us to mask the underlying degradation of the Earth's carrying capacity. For instance, the loss of arable land and topsoil fertility (estimated at 30% or more since World War II) has been masked by the use of artificial fertilizers made largely from natural gas. Another example is the death of the oceans, where 90% of all large fish species are now at risk, and most fish species will be at riskwithin 40 years.
This situation would be calamitous for nations that depend on the oceans for food, except that the use of fossil fuels allow them to fish ever farther from their home waters or import non-oceanic food to make up for the shortage of fish. Depleted water tables can be supplemented by water pumped from deeper wells; air pollution can be avoided by the use of air conditioners, etc. All of these indicate that ecological decline is being conveniently masked by our use of energy.
As our supply of energy (and especially that one-time gift of fossil fuels) begins to decline, this mask will be gradually peeled away to reveal the true extent of our ecological depredations. As we have to rely more and more on the unassisted bounty of nature, the consequences of our actions will begin to affect us all.
It is impossible to say with certainty how deep into overshoot humanity is at the moment. Some calculations point to an overshoot of 25%, others hint that it may be much greater than that. No matter what that number "really" is, there is no question of the damage we have done to the natural systems of air, land and water that supported us before the advent of coal, oil, and natural gas.
In order to complete the population model, I have factored in a gradually increasing effect from the unmasking of the world's loss of carrying capacity. The effect increases over time for two reasons. The first is simply that with less energy we won't be able to hide the existing ecological losses as well. The second is more insidious: as our energy supply declines we will do ever greater damage to the ecosphere in our attempt to forestall the inevitable. One major example of this is the increase in Global Warming that will come from the extra CO2 produced by the coal we will burn to try and replace the energy lost from declining oil and gas.
As in other aspects of this model, aggregation has been used to make the calculations more straightforward. In this case I have used a single numerical expression for "ecological damage" that rolls up all the possible sources of damage into a single mathematical term. The damage is assumed to come from a large variety of sources: climate change (e.g. droughts, flooding and other extreme weather events), loss of soil fertility, loss of fresh water supplies, the death of the oceans, chemical pollution of land and water, and the loss of biodiversity due to extinctions, habitat loss and monoculture food production. Such an aggregation necessarily results in a loss of precision, and may overstate or understate the actual situation. The chosen values represent my best estimate of the current state of the global ecology.
The model assumes that the impact of diminished carrying capacity will start now, and will reach about 40% by 2100. This 40% number represents the extent to which carrying capacity has been diminished and can no longer be masked by energy use. This impact is applied directly to the population numbers from Figure 14: an impact of 40% is taken to mean that the world will be able to support 40% fewer people than it might without the effect.
This affects the scenario in a three ways. First, the maximum population is slightly lower than it was in Figure 12. Second, the decline curve is a bit steeper. Most importantly the ultimate population in 2100 is no longer 1.8 billion, but just 1 billion people. Figure 15 shows the final population curve.

Figure 16: World Population with Declining Energy and Carrying Capacity, 1965 to 2100
Discussion
The scenario developed in this paper is fearsome indeed, and most people have an instinctive aversion to discussions of overpopulation or die-off. In my opinion, however, an awareness of the possibilities described here is essential if we are to make correct decisions on actions and policy at both the personal and government levels. An understanding of the problems of scale relating to energy sources is fundamental to this awareness.
The immediate objection to any worries about overpopulation is that population is declining naturally anyway, and will soon stabilize at a manageable number. The proper objective is therefore to hasten the fall of fertility rates, usually through the education and empowerment of women. Others claim that birth rates will fall naturally as poor nations industrialize, through the behaviour described by the Demographic Transition Model. We will examine each argument on its merits.
The education and empowerment approach has much to recommend it. It is humane, provides major benefits to societies where it occurs, and costs very little in either economic or energy terms. It is a valuable tool that must be promoted at every opportunity. Even in a resource-depleted world of one billion people, communities where such principles are in action will be much better off than those that hew strictly to the dominant "masculine" principles of our civilization (e.g. competition, domination and exploitation). Empowering women improves the diversity of values and makes more room for alternative social organizations, expanded conflict resolution approaches and a better understanding of humanity's relationship to our environment.
What we should not expect is that this approach will make a significant contribution to resolving the population problem in the time we have left. Education and empowerment take time, and there is far too little time remaining before the first wave of impacts is upon us. Where it will help is during the population decline. That decline will be going on for many years, possibly for two or three generations.
During that time, any birth that is humanely avoided adds one less person to the pool of those who are at horrifying risk of war, disease, starvation and death. Under such circumstances I would expect birth rates to fall dramatically anyway, but if we concentrate on educating and empowering women we will make fertility reduction more likely, along with improving the lot of those whose task it will be to keep civilization running.
Proponents of the Demographic Transition Model have a more difficult time. That model proposes that as a society industrializes it goes through two phases, the first consisting of rising life expectancies, the second characterized by a drop in fertility. The society transitions from a demographic situation of high birth and death rates through one of high birth and low death rates, to one of low birth and death rates.
I have published a study examining the energy that might be required to bring the world to a stable or declining population by this method. The result of that study was that it would take over five times the energy we use today to accomplish this, which is clearly an unrealistic expectation.
This leads naturally to the question, "Well, what if we come up with a new source that will give us the energy we need? What about fusion power or some even more exotic source? Wouldn't that take care of it?" My response is to suggest that the questioner take a hard look at what we've done with the energy we do have. Using it we have strip-mined the topsoil, drained the aquifers, destroyed the oceans, melted the glaciers, changed the very temperature of the planet, and exterminated untold other species in the process. Would more energy change that behaviour? There isn't a chance in (what's left of) the world.
In any event, if the conclusions of this model are anywhere close to correct all these arguments are moot. Energy constraints will trigger a reduction in population starting within 20 years, and the impact of those constraints will far exceed anything that such humanitarian measures could accomplish. In fact, if the model is correct, there will be no ongoing overpopulation problem at all, as natural processes intervene to bring our numbers back in line with our resource base.
This leaves the question of what such a population decline would look and feel like. The details of such a profound experience are impossible to predict, but it's safe to say it will be catastrophic far beyond anything humanity has experienced. The loss of life alone beggars belief. In the most serious part of the decline, during the two or three decades spanning the middle of this century, even with a net birth rate of zero we might expect death rates between 100 million and 150 million per year.
To put this in perspective, World War II caused 10 million excess deaths per year, and lasted a scant 6 years. This could be 50 times worse. Of course, a raw statement of excess deaths doesn't speak to the risk this will pose to the fabric of civilization itself. If it is true that the Inuit have a dozen words for "snow", we will need to invent a hundred for "hard times".
Conclusion
All the research I have done for this paper has convinced me that the human race is now out of time. We are staring at hard limits on our activities and numbers, imposed by energy constraints and ecological damage. There is no time left to mitigate the situation, and no way to bargain or engineer our way out of it. It is what it is, and neither Mother Nature nor the Laws of Physics are open to negotiation.
We have come to this point so suddenly that most of us have not yet realized it. While it may take another twenty years for the full effects to sink in, the first impacts from oil depletion (the net oil export crisis) will be felt within five years. Given the size of our civilization and the extent to which we rely on energy in all its myriad forms, five years is far too short a time to accomplish any of the unraveling or re-engineering it would take to back away from the precipice. At this point we are committed to going over the edge into a major population reduction.
However, this does not mean that we should adopt a fatalistic stance and assume there is nothing to be done. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. The need for action is more urgent now than ever. Humanity is not going to go extinct. There are going to be massive and ever-growing numbers of people in dire need for the foreseeable future. We need to start now to put systems, structures and attitudes in place that will help them cope with the difficulties, find happiness where it exists and thrive as best they can.
We need to develop new ways of seeing the world, new ways of seeing each other, new values and ethics. We need to do this with the aim of minimizing the misery and ensuring that as many healthy, happy people as possible emerge from this long trauma with the skills and knowledge needed to build the next cycle of civilization.



Thanks for this well-presented and researched report on the population dilemma.
In the "Not adopting a fatalistic stance" department, I think many population-based calculations overlook the impact of the consumption multiplier that the billion of us that comprise the global middle class bring to the calculation.
If a Human Consumption Unit (HCU) is the reasonable amount of food and 'stuff' that a human needs to live a minimal full life (As opposed to what Ted Honderich refers to as the half- and quarter- lives that at least 2 billion of us lead currently) Then the global middle class is living about 10 HCU-equivalents. I expect that if you average the under-HCU population with the obscenely over-HCU population, the planet is currently support something like 15-20 billion HCUs.
These excess HCUs are the fat in the system that gives us a window to act.
A controlled and intentional crash of global middle-class consumption, combined with the increase in death rates and reduction in birth rate that will accompany reduced middle class consumption (Think post-soviet Russia), gives us a much more humane way to negotiate the downslope to a sustainable population than the apocalyptic dreams of some of the more extreme overshoot fans.
When it comes to downsizing HCUs, I think it is far better to focus first and foremost on reducing the global "C"s, while encouraging the global "H"s to decline more gradually to carrying capacity.
You get to the same place demographically, but the trip is far more pleasant.
A future earth with 1 billion humans each enjoying a full HCU, is a far more just, stable, and humane world than our current highly polarized one.
This sort of what I was referring to when I wrote about rich individuals and nations reallocating their discretionary spending towards the purchase of energy (or other essentials such as food). The problem is with the nations and individuals who don't have the discretionary spending power. The current economic system gives them virtually no chance. There is no mechanism for the just distribution of wealth, and those who presently hold it are not likely to opt for one.
The middle class will tighten their belts, but it won't keep the Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Africans, South East Asians and South Americans from falling into the abyss.
It's a nice dream, but the future reality is much more likely to involve a widening of the gulf of inequity rather than its narrowing.
Good point Glider Guider. I do find it fortunate that the US is an oil importing country. We have the most fat that can be reallocated to preparing for the future and we will be forced to face reality faster than if we were a net exporter. Because the net export model suggests that our imports will decline much faster than actual depletion, we will have the incentive and technology to improve efficiency while many poor exporting countries avoid collapse. The US/Europe still has the excess capital to improve our infrastructure and the incentive to encourage leapfrogging to avoid global warming and keep the costs of fossil fuels down. Making this happen is our responsibility as citizens.
Does anyone have any information on the effect the Iraq war had on American oil supplies? If it decreased oil supply and was a failure on that front (which I think it was) there will be less incentive to repeat the debacle. War is very oil intensive; I'm sure we've burned more than we've gotten, but I have no data to back that up. Any references would be most appreciated.
Very well written/thought out article. I repeat your plea to reject fatalism. We must not let perfection be the enemy of good. Any action to reduce overshoot must be pursued, perhaps a cost analyses of effective overshoot reduction strategies might be in order? And not just of energy supplies; all limiting factors (food, land, water etc). Perhaps some guest posts?
Thanks
Any solution to peak oil, global warming and poverty will depend on wide or universal access to contraception.
I=PAT
Impact = Population x Affluence x Technology (from Ehrlich)
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
That should be Impact = Population X Affluence / Technology.
Concentrating solar can reduce natural gas consumption for peaking power within a timespan of months. Solar energy could be 25% of our power production in one years time, since our hundreds of megawatts of production would turn into hundreds of gigawatts at 1000 sun levels. More practically, we will just go to 100 sun levels and only produce an additional 25 gigawatts a year each year, substituting for gas at first, then for coal, then for nuclear, as we go from photovoltaic to thermal generation while our manufacturing capacity ramps up.
Concentrating solar ramps up within months, concentrating thermal takes years. Say, ten years to ramp up to the point of replacing all natural gas, and another ten years to replacing all coal.
Superb article. Thank you. With the press release from Accenture about their study around the world interviewing people's perceptions: http://newsroom.accenture.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4601 perhaps getting this work passed around will encourage the average Joes to wake up to what's coming. It will be on the Weekend Link List Friday at http://newenergyandfuel.com/ with a very strong recommendation. I doubt that we're too late though. Rather we could be looking for policy leadership to mitigate the harm to those who most likely will be harmed. No where near enough attention and investment is being leveled at getting all the alternatives into working productive shape. But until 10s of millions of Joes catch on, well . . .
It's the leadership that inflicts the harm. To get out of that spiral, you need a completely new system of politics. The problem with that is that the current leaders have their fingers on all the important triggers and buttons and printing presses, and they're not planning on giving that up easily.
I agree - But what to use in place of it? A communist party as in China, soft dictatorship/democracy as in Russia or a hard dictatorship? The corporate business model doesn't have the cahones to put the money up nor should it put the investment, management, and labor at such risk. A government is a poor choice, too, as you note. Can a public corporate model be made to work or will it quickly be a bureaucratic sinkhole? Other than that Joe and Jane public has to become aware, educated, motivated and complaining about it. That means these articles are important. So . . . Pass it Around!
Like this: http://newenergyandfuel.com/
Maybe take a look at Jay Hanson's conclusions about Humans and Politics.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/killer_ape-peak_oil/messages/1?l=1
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/pdf/sixteen-two/xvi-2-93.pdf
Mr. Hanson's "killer_ape-peak_oil" group is private to members and apparently closed to anyone wishing to join at this time, as I cannot get Yahoo to give me any options about joining the group.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone
GZ
go to warsocialism.com
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WarSocialism/
I don't agree with the attempt to blame our current standard of living for the predicament we are facing. Regardless of the structure of society, overshoot would have come anyway. China and India are examples, and they swamp any “excessive” HCU we have here by their sheer numbers.
I watched a show the other day where the Chinese Ambassador to Canada said that their country is so polluted and so over populated that within 10 years they will have 150 MILLION environmental refugees that will have to be “relocated”. Is that a warning that they will have to emigrate to other countries??? That’s 40% of the US population. Where would they all go?
We require the high level of HCU to run this society. A society whose science and medicine has actually caused the over population in other countries to occur with the aid and technology we send them. http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/fore-e/rep-e/rep... is a prime example of where billions of aid to Africa has only made more poorer people.
If anything, advanced societies have a much better track record on the environment than less advanced societies. Soviet Russia, Africa, Indonesia, China and many others who live in advancement only because we export from our society, were/are environmental disasters. Yes, a lot of that is supporting our advanced society, no question, but even before that environment took second fiddle to humans, and in many places humans took second fiddle to “the motherland”.
Thus we should not feel ashamed, nor feel guilty at our high consumptive lifestyle. It was a great effort while it lasted. People of the future will marvel at us, and wonder what kind of wonderful life people today must have had, and wish they had lived in our times. But they will also realize that our high technological society had a lifespan of its own. Maybe they will learn a lesson from that.
As with any population of any organism, they eventually reach the carrying capacity, or have the carrying capacity pulled out from under it. Humans are no different, and we would have gotten here anyway. If anything we should be proud of what we have achieved as a species. We have achieved so much in science and technology, that absolutely must be preserved for future peoples, even thousands of years from now.
We will crash, maybe to a small fraction of our current population. There may be some modest recovery in 100 or 200 years. Though we have essentially raped the planet of all non-renewable resources save what those people in the future can mine from our buildings and garbage dumps, if there is one positive thing we can leave behind it’s our knowledge of science and technology. Of all things it would be a great shame to see that all evaporate and return to an age where people think the world is flat, we are at center of the universe and create all sorts of gods to explain how their world works.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
Your conclusions are dire and your charts are very useful, thanks.
Research into solar, wave, wind and geothermal alternative energy supplies is not guaranteed to be the solution to global warming or the fossil fuels crisis.
And that is definite if we don’t even try. Funding for the alternative energy field is intentionally neglected. What we get is the War on Terror® instead.
Thank you GliderGuider for this assessment of a topic that is hard to bear, but bear it we must.
Wendell Berry has written that our "moral predicament as that of a steward. To live we must daily break the body and shed the blood of Creation. When we do this lovingly, knowingly, skillfully, reverently, it is a sacrament. When we do it greedily, clumsily, ignorantly, destructively, it is a desecration."
Combining this thought with your concluding ones:
And in reply to this population decline dilemma as was raised in yesterday's drumbeat, I offered what I hope might be seen as a fairly considered reflection on this whole question and how we might see fit to cope with it. I'm mentioning it here not to toot my own horn but to ask that we might treat this subject with a degree of respect it deserves and that I think GliderGuider is asking us to give it our consideration as well.
I'd be disappointed if we rehashed this topic in the way it usually occurs, of which the latest example IMO was in Robert Rapier's most recent post, and in which I thought contained a lot of heat but not much light to guide us by.
May some light of decency prevail here even in contemplation of the ultimate darkness. My linked to thoughts are far from perfect or anywhere near the be all and end all on this subject, but for me they were a start, and that is why I mention it.
http://reddit.com/info/5yig3/comments/
thank you for your support.
This is a keeper.
Caveat: 1-Food/Calories are given short shrift here.
Australia has had almost zero rain (20 mm) in the last three weeks.
An Ozzie said (from an FT article) that if no rain is received in three weeks, then disaster.
Right now the wheat forecast is 13.5 million tons, and you have to hunt ABARE to find that figure.
We're looking at less than seven. Australia needs
5 for domestic consumption.
The International Grain Council hasn't factored in
the Ozzie drop to 15.5 million tons yet.
PEAK OIL, TOTAL COLLAPSE, AND THE ROAD TO THE OLDUVAI
a commentary by Perry Arnett – 18 April 2007
A New Zealander factoring in Non Linear.
http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/arnett05.htm
Thanx again for all of your fine work.
Sincerely yours,
James
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
I agree about food. I wanted to focus primarily on the energy linkage, so I aggregated the decline in food supply into the 40% "ecological damage" term I applied at the end. A complete analysis would entail breaking out that term into its components as I did with energy, but I think the whole ecological goatrope is still too hazy and chaotic for quantifiable projections.
Actually mcg I live in a part of Australia that has had 500 millimetres (20") of rain in the past 3 weeks, some places more. However so certain is middle Australia that things will 'work out' that they won't move from their familiar suburbs. Social and economic inertia is a powerful force.
They'll just have to start raising rice in the north instead of wheat in the middle, I guess. Australian farmers will have to follow the rain if they want to stay in the farming business.
Glider: Great post. One point: you say that Chindia is currently using .8 per person yet in your population assumptions you use 1.0. It would appear that the minimum necessary energy per capita to grow population is somewhat below .8 (IMO quite a bit below). Why 1.0?
I actually project a declining per capita energy consumption over the century, dropping from 1.7 toe/yr now to 1.0 in 2100. I settled on 1.0 as a target because I think the main impact to the global consumption profile is going to come from increasing inequality, where consumption goes even more strongly bimodal than it is today. I think the people in the upper consumption band are going to have the economic and military power to maintain their consumption (at least relative to the overall decline) while more people at the bottom fall off the cliff than would if the distribution were more equitable. The net effect IMO is for the per capita consumption to stay higher than it otherwise would.
I also wanted to avoid being accused of wanting to send the world back to the 1400s, which is what a reduction to the average consumption level of an "advanced agricultural man" (0.75) might have implied.
.
GliderGuider, IMO Europeans in the 1400's had an already unsustainable level of industrialization. Here's a quote from William Reid's "Weapons Throught the Ages" p 73:
"The quantity production of metal - along with men and food, the main raw material of war - is centered on a large degree on the development of a crushing mill to break down the mined metallic ores. A sketch of c. 1430 by a Hussite engineer illustates an engine that was probably designed for this purpose, although it wasa no more than another member of the trip-hammer family....The ore-crushing machine made an important contribution to the development of both offensive and defensive arms."
He goes on to talk of waterwheels powering bellows for tree-charcoal fired blast furnaces and for sharpening grinders.
I mention this because I think it's worth noting the industrial age had really started before the steam engine, and that the main inpetus for investment seems to have been advantage in warfare. America's disproportionate expenditures for military researearch is merely a continuation of this long-running trend. This doesn't bode well for a post-overshoot society based on European 1400 CE technology!
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami
If history had been a little different...
I think it's quite possible that the invasion of N.America and elsewhere by Europeans enabled them (unknowingly albeit) to forstall social failure from "Peak Wood" or some such.
If the First Nations peoples had done what was clearly in their interest (unknowingly) at the time and slaughtered them on the beaches, or at least prior to them getting back home with the good news of all the goodies to be found in the "New World" then things would have been much different I think
Slaughtering them on the beaches would have changed nothing. The vast majority of native American casualties came from disease, disease introduced by Europeans who had been exposed for generations to these same diseases (which were a direct outgrowth of our ability to domesticate large varieties of wild animals) and who were therefore largely immune to these diseases or at least had been naturally selected against that factor.
The course of modern history was probably largely dictated by the fortuitous circumstances described by Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel - that the Middle East happened to be home to the largest number of domesticable plants and animals and that this "agricultural package" is what made the civilizations that sprang from Middle Eastern heritage (Europe and Asia) so strong. Diamond argues that the lack of domesticable plants and animals in North America greatly hampered the spread of civilization here. As Diamond notes, North and South America only had a couple of domesticable animal species and Africa had none, leaving them poorer than their neighbors in the race for power. That shortcoming created the discrepancies that we find still in play even today. So slaughtering them would not have changed much at all. Massive casualties still would have occurred as smallpox and other diseases rapidly spread outwards from first contact locations. (Some estimates place the casualty rate from disease as high as 90%.)
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone
Others have said that human activity became unsustainable when we developed agriculture 10,000 years ago. I wouldn't go quite that far but I agree with the underlying point - that any human activity that permits any degree of long-term growth in numbers and per-capita consumption is inherently unsustainable.
Have you considered different high low case scenarios at all the branches in your thinking?
for instance is it not possible that the military power effect may shrink the number of nations capable of maintaining a high consumption level and the countries falling into the gorge may be larger in number. winner takes all scenario
also if geopolitical maneuvering causes a distortion in distribution.. and I think most of us would agree it already does... does this distortion suppress or increase consumption compared to some unknownable base case?
I'm in two minds about that myself..
since these are highly subjective issues is it possible to re-gig the analysis for different what if options?
did you calculate the analysis through with a die off result as a priori or just assume some starting conditions, rates of change etc and calculate the result?
well structured post by the way....
Boris
London
OH RLY? I mean, if this is considered a "great post", then I have to reconsider the respectability of this site.
This is not just a Great Post, it is one of the Greatest. How many people have the guts to tell it like it is. We are deep into overshoot and there is only one way out, down.
But for those looking to play the blame game, I think most of you are looking in the wrong place. There is no blame other than the evolutionary success of our species.
Ron Patterson
"We are deep into overshoot"
On a linear graph with linear thinking,
we are into overshoot.
Since humans tend to think linearly, you MIGHT be right.
"The sun will come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow
There'll be sun..."
This is fearsome indeed. In ecological impacts that you have factored in, have you fully taken account of the latest predictions of James Hansen on the stability and possible melt rate of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets? If the oil, gas and (especially) coal resources you have shown are mostly burnt without carbon capture - the most likely outcome if there is the "energy panic" you predict in 10-15 years time, we can expect irreversible and rapid melting of at least Greenland and probably West Antartic to begin by the third decade of this century. That could put 5-10m on sea levels by the end of the century.
Even 1/3rd of that by 2050 would mean extensive flooding and saline contamination of some of the world's most productive cropland and major coastal cities, with inevitable major economic impacts. This in itself might be enough to stimulate industrial collapse.
Several posters here (including Gail) have talked about the ending of the perpetual growth paradigm - which would be obvious by 2020 - as signalling a collapse of world economic systems which would itself accelerate societal collapse.
Sorry to be so doomish, as if the scenario is not bad enough as it is. On a practical note, I'd encourage all who take this seriously to undertake westexas's ELP strategy as a crash programme for themselves and families. Also, consider moving to (or even helping to create), a resilient community such a small town where a reasonable number of people still have or can develop the varied, "old-style" skills which will be essential to survival in such a situation.
I think you discussed in more detail a few months ago the scale of excess deaths the scenario implies. While most of these will affect "developing" countries, it is clear that no nation will escape. I think JM Greer recently wrote in his Archdruid Report that for the future you need to heed the advice given at the start of commercial airline flights - "secure your own oxygen mask before trying to help others" - i.e. ensure that you yourself have a range of skills that will be relevant to your own survival in the world to come.
In ecological impacts that you have factored in, have you fully taken account of the latest predictions of James Hansen on the stability and possible melt rate of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets? If the oil, gas and (especially) coal resources you have shown are mostly burnt without carbon capture - the most likely outcome if there is the "energy panic" you predict in 10-15 years time, we can expect irreversible and rapid melting of at least Greenland and probably West Antartic to begin by the third decade of this century. That could put 5-10m on sea levels by the end of the century.
The last time Greenland was ice free was 110,000 years ago. There have been periods in that time since were Greenland was as much as 15C warmer for hundreds of years, and it did not all melt. In fact ice there continued to accumulate, which is why there is even a record in those cores of those events. (BTW, ice accumulation in Greenland is still occuring at a faster rate than the melting).
The volume of ice, and the latent heat required to melt it all is emormous, taking thousands of years to melt it all.
Some predictions claim that the start of the melt will put so much fresh water into the North Atlantic as to force a shut down of the Gulf Stream which would start a cooling effect in the Arctic and possibly trigger a new ice age.
The climate is so complex, has so many factors, is so unknown, that any predictions in the near, let alone the far future, is highly suspect.
Besides, I'm voting for a much warmer future. Bring it on as I'm not looking forward to try to keep us warm in the winter. Global warming may be a life saver for many after and during the crash.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
"Bring it on". Be careful what you wish for.
Current ice accumulation in Greenland is not occurring faster than the melt. Total melt versus ice formation yields a loss of total ice and it is accelerating.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone
Then how come the accumulation in the centre has been going up the past several decades? It's snowing more. Doesn't matter, the volume of ice would take a 1000 years to melt. We wont last that long as this society.
Yea, I'm wishing for warmer times due to GW if it means survival for us in Canada from not having to heat our homes as much vs people in another far off country who are grossly over population living on shore lines getting flooded. Yea, no brainer. Callous? Heartless? No realistic. I have 4 children and 4 grandchildren and they are my duty to protect. Better get used to it, hard choices are coming.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
What makes you think warmer weather will necessarily be better?
Hi jrwakefield
Global warming does not mean just warmer world temperatures, it also means chaos and unpredictable temperatures. We have had relatively stable weather in Canada for all our history; with global warming weather is becoming unstable and this may not be good for your 4 children and 4 grandchildren.
Might get sucked up in a tornado,eh?:)
From what I've read warmer average temperatures will mean more moderated temps, less swings. With warmier Arctic means fewer cold fronts (that cause your tornados) hence LESS severe storms. That's not from me, that's from climatologists I've read.
If temperatures are warmer on averge does not mean the world will get hotter. If the swing between high and low is changed only with the low getting warmer, but the high staying put, then the average temp increase. But with more moderate temps over all.
This appears to be the case when the world was warmer before this last round of ice ages 110,000 years ago (when Greenland was more or less free of ice) and 55 million years ago when the average temp was 8C warmer than now.
The bottom line for me, from what I've read, is the alarmism is way over blown (a number of scientists on the IPCC panel have said that not me) and highly politizied. This whole worry about CC is irrelevant anyway. This current version of society isn't going to be around when issues from that take hold. The population may very well be in the midst of a crash anyway, and quite frankly those trying to survive buy growing their own food are not going to give a rats ass for anyone who is being flooded out elsewhere.
In my view AGW has hijacked where PO should be in the public's mind. It's a much sooner and world wide threat than GW ever will be. It's almost like AGW is a distraction, but that would mean a conspiricy theory, which I don't subscribe to.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
The world had different temperature ranges in the geologic past because the thermohaline circulation was vastly different due to different continental placement. Just a few million years ago, there was no "central America" and the Atlantic flowed freely into the Pacific. Global circulation patterns were very different. Likewise, not too many million years ago, there was clear circulation from the Atlantic through the Mediterranean into the Indian Ocean. These changes are massive and attempting to equate the climate of several million years past with today's climate without also attempting to account for these serious differences leads to improbable conclusions.
Unlike your wholly speculative position, the global warming community has developed extensive models that continue to be refined as more data becomes available. These models include factors like the thermohaline circulation, and many other factors as well. The truth is that as our climate becomes warmer, more volatility is predicted by the models and that is indeed what we have seen thus far. Your assertion that the highs "stay put" is already disproven by the available data to date. Rather than speculating from a preconceived position, you should study the data with an open mind.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone
Yes, I'm well versed in geological history, so I understand those past events and what it means. My point about CC is two fold. 1) predictions from climate models are highly suspect (I write software for a living) and vary by orders of magnitude. Hence predictions based on them cannot be trusted. 2) Yes, climate changes happen, and has happened in the geological past. It doesn't even matter we are causing it as there is no way we have the time nor resouces to change it, assuming CC is changable. The reduction in CO2 everyone wants, some calling for more than 80%, is simply unrealistic to expect civilization to voluntarily do that. With the continued inclusion into the argument that North Americans consume 10 times the energy than someone in Nigeria, means to me that much of the action demanded is nothing but a highly leftist plot to kill off our society (I'm not a far right BTW, but in the middle, where most of the public is).
Besides, and I'll say it again, CC is not the threat it's made out to be, because resource depletion, the purpose of this threat to start with, will be the CO2 reducer you are looking for by crashing our civilization.
If we are serious about doing something to save future peoples, and hopefully ourselves, then we should just forget trying to change climate change, take it as a given, and get to work preparing for a lifestyle that is far more local, far less energy insensive and sustainable for the lower population that's to come. There's a lot to do in order to do that, and there is precious little being done, and even less time to do it in. That's what our focus should be.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
.
I don't know. 40% of British Columbia's pine forest is dead due to climate change, and the rest is likely to go by 2013.
Doesn't sound good for Canada.
That's not climate change, that's pine beetles. Even in a worst-case scenario, those areas get logged and replanted, either with pine or with some other native tree - there's no major threat to human habitability involved.
"That's not climate change, that's pine beetles. "
It's pine beetles, able to live in a new environment due to the lack of killing frosts, due to climate change.
It's not a killer threat to humans, but it's a very good example of an unexpected and large harm to Canada, a northern country, due to CC.
My point is, it's a big mistake to assume that any country will benefit from climate change, just because it's farther north. It's not "warming", it's "change", and usually not for the better.
"Mountain pine beetle (MPB) has been present in British Columbia's forests for millenia."
That's not entirely clear. As these animations of infestation areas over the last 40 years show, there was a pretty bad infestation in the early 80s, suggesting severe infestations are not a new occurrence.
.
Yes it is climate change, Pitt. The Pine Beetle normally dies off in very large numbers after laying its eggs. This die off occurs even though the adult beetles burrow in an effort to survive the winter. But the temperatures would kill them. As temperatures have risen in the north, the winter no longer gets sufficiently cold to kill off as many adults. Thus, these adults join the newly hatched young the following spring, increasing the size of the swarm. This has been clearly established by those researching the issue. You may wish to further familiarize yourself with this topic. This is exactly the sort of unanticipated side effects from global warming that will cause serious harm to our environment.
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone
But this begs the question. How did the pine trees survive that last warming before the last ice age? There were several 1000's of years of very warm times then and there must have been something that allowed the trees to outwit, or live with these beetles.
This is my beef with the alarmism. It may indeed be bad for many humans (but so too is PO and the coming collapse), but that does not mean that GW is the end of the world or life. This is normal for populations to go through these highs and lows.
If humans were never here, this would quite likely happen anyway with the pine beetle. The issue is because our society has become dependant upon clear cutting forests. The threat to the trees is not the beetle per se, but what we are doing to the forests that make them more suseptable to the beetles. We are thining out trees that have the potential to deal with the beetle and it's fungus that stops the tree's defence mechanism. The fewer the indiviuals in a population the more suseptable it is to selection pressures.
That's the problem, and will soon be solved once the population crashes.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
In past climate change, the trees migrated. Now, trees migrate by propagating rather than by packing their suitcases, but with gradual climate change, that is no big deal. A tree and it's children can live out their lives where they are rooted. Kids to the north or south may have a little more relative success with their kids depending on the direction of climate change. Trees are adapted to that sort of thing. They don't attempt to live forever on the assumption of climate stability. They reproduce. But, they do take some time to mature. Now, if you are a tree, and packing the suitcase is not an option, what are you suppose to make of what the tree news is reporting over at ArborDay.org?
Guess you try to figure out how to bribe the squirrels to run your acorns 200 miles north and hope that will work.
Rapid climate change is not so good for trees. They are not adapted to it.
Chris
BC's timber problems is more than just climate change. I'm not denying climate is changing, I'm skeptical it is enterly bad. Some of the bad is our own making. The pine beatle is an example.
"During early stages of an outbreak, attacks are limited largely to trees under stress from injury, poor site conditions, fire damage, overcrowding, root disease or old age. As beetle populations increase, the beetles attack most large trees in the outbreak area."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_beetle
The clear cutting is also contributing to the problem. To me the pine beetle problem is just another in a long series of human caused problems that is going to hit our society hard.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
"Some of the bad is our own making."
Climate change is just that:
Change.
No "good" or "bad". Just is.
Millions might die because of floods, for instance.
Malaria might become a plague.
The (southern) Sahara might get a rainy season again.
Since AGW took root about 6-8TYears ago, probably resulting from agriculture, the earth has probable never had a more stable climate:
Click for full graph.
Notice how volatile temperature before the past couple millenia were. Now for the past 12TYears:
Click for full graph.
Please refer to: http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature_Rev_png
As we see, temperatures have been falling/stable the past 8TY. Many think that without man, we would already be moving into a new glaciation period.
Recent years suggest that we are breaking out of this, into higher terrain - Now AGW seems to be going into overdrive. Things are *beginning* to change.
There will be benefitters and losers, profit and strife.
Humans have destroyed local environments many times in the past, usually by ruining the soil.
This change will be epic (If I have any predictive abilities). There will be dying populations and migrant populations. Miami/NO and co might go under. Many will want into Canada...
But I agree with Richard: GW is linear change which humanity is used to dealing with. Cities are built and abandon. Others are build. Ur falls into the annals of history.
PO, on the other hand, challenges the basic system which has been put together over hundreds / thousands of years.
Cheers, Dom
This is a good analysis of long term trends, based on best estimates of remaining resources, extraction, infrastructure, and decline rates. Of course the real world rarely develops along such smooth trajectories. One area which would benefit from further consideration is the effect of short term discontinuities. The robustness/diversity of supply sources and infrastructure, and the risks of short-term
supply interruptions to a country's abilities to provide food, water, warmth and security for their populations. In the case of the UK with its 10 or so days of natural gas storage, and probably a similar petrol/diesel storage, plus limited food storage, the effects on domestic heating,
supermarket shelves, and electricity generation of a cut in supplies, would become critical within just a few weeks, as in 2000. Such a risk, from a US/European/Isreali attack to disarm Iran's nuclear ambitions, is real and present. The short term loss of supply of Middle-East oil, potentially compounded by Russian Iranian support, expressed through supply constriction, would test the JIT supply chains supporting developed countries populations to the limit.
Records
I disagree with one of the fundamental premises of this article:
GliderGuider accurately describes the energy situation, something well known to people on this forum. He also accurately describes the population growth situation, again a topic that is well known. However, the existence of two similar trends does not imply causality. One could just as well show that the population growth rate is similar to the growth rate of the number of NFL football games played per year.
Places like the state of Uttar Pradesh in India have experienced a population boom in the last 100 years, but almost all of their population has no access to fossil fuels, even indirectly. On the other hand, places like Europe, with heavy energy usage, have seen their population growth rates flatten out, and these growth rates will begin to decline soon regardless of what happens with energy.
Japan in 1850 had a population of 23 million, a higher population density than the earth's overall population density today. (Here is a link giving Japanese population figures from 1872: http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/chouki/02.htm). I think this gives evidence that a high density population can be maintained without fossil fuels.
Don't get me wrong; I am not saying that peak oil will bring pleasant consequences or anything like that. I'm also not saying that the planet will support infinite population growth. I am only saying that there is little causality between energy growth and population growth.
NG,
A bit of an old argument, I think.
There is no doubt that the energy embedded in the Green Revolution, both in its fertilizer/herbicide- and in its transport aspect, has greatly impacted world population. Uttar Pradesh without food aid would be a whole different place today.
Uh - you realized that Uttar Pradesh is the largest producer of food grains in India, and has a food surplus, yes?
Why did you assert something without bothering to check your facts? How are we supposed to take any assertions you make seriously if you have this demonstrated tendency to make things up to support your arguments?
That an argument is old doesn't invalidate it. In fact, that an argument is old and hasn't been invalidated tends to suggest that whatever it's arguing against probably needs serious revision.
Perhaps one needs to remember that the Green Revolution also entailed the massive irrigation projects now having so many problems in U.P.: lack of water, intermittent distribution, and where there is enough blue gold... salinity is killing production.
U.P. is THE exception in that it lies at the foothills of the Himalayas and thus is swimming in free silt and water (or should be!). When U.P. is starting to have problems, which it most definitely, let's just say the hotter, drier states of India are going to suffer much more dramatically.
Gary
And your evidence for any of this is?...
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the last guy to make evidence-free assertions about Uttar Pradesh was wrong, so history suggests a certain amount of skepticism is in order.
Some questions please.
Does Pradesh have closed borders?
How much of a population boom in 100 years?
Do people in Pradesh use birth control as in Europe?
What do you mean by "ALMOST all of their population has no access to fossil fuels".
Do you subscribe to the assertion that the population of the world would have jumped from 1 billion to the current 6.5 billion without oil, gas and the internal combustion engine?
How is Japan's population density in 1872 relate to the earth's overall density now? Are you including Antarctica, Greenland, Australia and Canada in your calculations, for "earth's overall population density"?
No - it's an Indian state, and India is more-or-less a Western-style democracy. The state saw large migrations during the partition of India and Pakistan, for example.
AS I thought 90% bulldust.
Immigration, no figures given for anything concerning the reason for the population explosion.
Stated population boom was cited over 100 years now changed by you to 50.
So no birth control, yet population increase was compared with Europe.
"so it's not like nobody there has access to oil"
High yield crop varieties, hybrids. Where do they come from?
From a proudly declared "story" which you backed up I get several "probably's" now and still no hard data.
If you have evidence that contradicts the cites I've given, please provide it. Otherwise, your assertions are little more than your opinion, and are not credible.
It doesn't matter; they're there now, and don't require continuous oil inputs to maintain.
Sorry, but what are you talking about? That bears no relation to anything I've written, and appears to have no relevant point. What are you trying to say?
Not to mention, of course, that you're wrong - the link I provided gives population information for both 50 and 100 years ago.
What is your point? Are you even trying to make one? I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean.
If you have some point you're trying to make, you're going to have to write a whole lot more clearly to make it understandable.
Pitt you are the one who made all the declarations, with not one piece of evidence.
Now you want evidence for my requesting evidence.
I'll state it bluntly.......
Prove to me that the large population increase in Uttar Pradesh was not due in any part to the use of oil.
This is what has happened.
To show that a population explosion can occur without the use of oil, an example is given of Utter Pradesh.
I say Bulldust.
You say prove it.
Now I say bulldust AGAIN.
Do not answer unless YOU provide evidence. So far I've been questioning a fairy tale.
You see those words that are different colours than the other ones? That are called links, and if you click on them with your mouse pointer, they'll take you to another website. Those other websites will give you evidence backing up what I've said, which is why I linked to them.
Nonsensical demand - nothing can be proven (outside of math and logic), meaning that you could always complain that any level of evidence I provide is not enough. Demanding that someone prove a negative is particularly absurd - it's like demanding you prove nobody lives in the Horsehead Nebula.
As it stands now, though, I've provided evidence and you've provided nothing. The ball ain't in my court.
Read the links yourself. They prove my point.
Do you want a few long links to read from me, they are easy to find with google?
Use Google Earth and have a look at Lucknow, Varanisi or Kanpur and tell me oil had nothing to do with it.
Not once anywhere have I read that any population increase is due in no part to oil or industrialization. If I have missed it please show it to me.
They have trains, cars and trucks, like anywhere else in India.
They don't practice birth control and Uttar Pradesh has immigration and migration.
They don't have closed borders, it is a part of India, so simple to understand.
You speak like it was some huge experiment to prove the fact that populations explode without oil and industrialization.
For you to tell me the increase of 250% is due in no part to oil is BS. I need proof or STFU.
"It was in the Uttar Pradesh (The period between 1857-58) that the first struggle for liberation from the British yoke was unleashed. The revolt was suppressed and from then till independence it remained under British dominance. In 1950 the state was organised and named as Uttar Pradesh".
I getting from you 100 years of population increase.
Can you show me the population explosion from 1900 to 1950.
You also haven't read it from me, so I'm really not sure what you're complaining about.
You're right - it's BS that I told you that. I've never said any such thing.
No I don't. You asked some questions, I answered them, and then you started getting abusive.
You're assuming I'm saying all kinds of things that I've never said, and then complaining about them. You could have this argument all by yourself, since you seem to be making up most of the things you claim I'm saying.
Yep get out now while you are behind.
You are the one with all the links. You were acting like Clarence Darrow.
You said them all because you defended the original fairy tale. You thought it was true.
How consistent to you think your report is with the report today in the WSJ that 44% of proposed new generation is renewable? Taking wind as providing 20% of new generation in 2006, your figure 11 does not seem to be consistent with an annual or biannual doubling of renewable energy capacity.
Chris
That has to be 44% of new CAPACITY.
Apply real world capacity factors, and one can expect only 19% of future POWER from these additions to come from renewables.
Not nearly as rosy a picture.
"Apply real world capacity factors, and one can expect only 19% of future POWER from these additions to come from renewables."
What capacity factors are you using? About 90 of the 326GW was gas, and only 56 was coal and only 36 was nuclear. A lot of gas plants have a capacity factor of less than 20%. If you assume 73% for coal (per NEI) and oil, 90% for nuclear and 40% for gas, you get 28% coming from renewables.
It was indeed 20% in 2006, per NEI, so that's 40% growth year over year. Not bad.
Alternatives cannot be scaled up. It's easy to calculate that the number of wind turbines the US would need to replace just automobile gasoline is some 2 million turbines. We don't have the fossil fuels left to build 10,000 turbines let alone 2 million of them.
Alternatives may be great on small scale, may even be a god-send for peoples 100 years from now (if they can keep them running), but alternatives will never substitute for fossil fuels to keep this society going as is.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
And your evidence for this is?...
15,000MW of wind generation capacity was installed last year. With an average per-turbine generation capacity of about 1MW, that means more than 10,000 turbines were installed last year alone.
i.e., you have no idea what you're talking about.
"Alternatives cannot be scaled up."
Sure, they can. The US organization of utility System Operators has received interconnection requests for about 120GW of renewables. Only about 330GW of wind would be needed to replace gasoline (see below).
"It's easy to calculate that the number of wind turbines the US would need to replace just automobile gasoline is some 2 million turbines. "
Could you show your calculations? Here are mine: about 112,000 3GW wind turbines would be needed, based on 3GW wind turbines @30% capacity factor, 210K light vehicles, 12k miles per vehicle, and .35 KWH per mile.
Don't confuse capacity with actual output of a wind turbine. The actual physical output is 20% of capacty for the simple reason that the wind rarely blows at maximum (50-55km/hr), and the actual output is the cube of the windspeed. Cut the windspeed in half and you get 1/8th the output (20%).
As for turbines replacing gasoline, do it in joules per hour. I've posted already here for ontatio's gasoline consumption of 15 billion litrs per year (6x10^13 joules per hour) then divide by the capacity of a turbine then mulitply by 5 (the 20% actual) and you get 66,000 turbines. Since the US is 30 times the size of Ontario at least, that's 2 million turbines.
How many have actually been built in the US so far, I can't seem to find a definative number, but ontario is about 50-60 of them done, and as many on the board. (they take 2 years each to build, doing about 20-25 at a time).
That's my justification. Show where it is wrong.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
If you're going to try that, you'd better factor in the relative efficiencies of ICE and electric motors. An EV only uses about 0.1 to 0.2 KWh/km. An ICE at .07 l/km (7 l per 100 km) uses about 0.6 KWh/km, so EVs are 4 times as efficient.
If you're just looking at the thermal content of the gasoline you're going to get criticized. Trust me, I know :-)
" An ICE at .07 l/km (7 l per 100 km) uses about 0.6 KWh/km, so EVs are 4 times as efficient."
Well, that assumes a vehicle reasonably close to European efficiency. US efficiency is closer to .11 l/lkm.
"If you're just looking at the thermal content of the gasoline you're going to get criticized. Trust me, I know :-)"
Yeah :~)
So is it 4 times or 6 times, the difference? 4 times is what I've seen, albeit under ideal conditions (new batteries for example, older batteries require more charge and run less, and colder batteries require more charge and we get mighty cold here some winters). As time goes on for these vehicles then the required power will be more. Thus any production would have to take that into account. So even at 4 times efficiency, that's 1/4 of 66,000 1.5MW turbines. That's still a lot and still require decades to build. And does not include the output required to heat homes for example.
This is all academic. I only brought this up to expose the scale of the problem, so dithering about a few times the numbers is not going to change the premise of my basic argument. Which is we do not have the time, nor the resources to go on a WWII like campaign to build alternatives in an attempt to keep our high consumptive society running as is. That's the point. People bring out these alternatives as though they will save our bacon. They can't. They can't be scaled up in time even if they are scalable.
Now that does not mean we should not build them. I think we should get as many built as possible now, including ethanol and biodiesel plants. The problem is not the technology per se because the technology works. The scale problem is our shere numbers.
Once the crash happens, what ever smaller society emerges will thank us for building all this capacity for them to use and have at least some confort and ability to feed themselves.
That's why I also think we need to build railways, like we used to have them in the early 1900's, and build them damn fast. People in 100 years will need them and quite likely be unable to build them to the scale they need for a very long time. What we do now will shape the course of the next civilization.
It's also one of the reasons why I oppose trying to stop global warming. Money and time that will be wasted that could be used for the above mentioned.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
"People bring out these alternatives as though they will save our bacon. They can't. They can't be scaled up in time even if they are scalable."
Well, that's the basic point in contention here, isn't it?
I've provided a great deal of data to show that wind/solar can scale up, and are on the way to doing so very quickly. Do you have more specific, quantitative info?
Except that efficiency would not include the following:
The cars would have to be heated in winter driving, that will drain the batteries faster.
In the winter we have long nights, so the lights of the car would be on longer, draining the batteries faster.
There will also be loss in the conversion from AC to DC to recharge the batteries. And even new batteries take more energy to charge than they give back.
So even the 4:1 ratio will start to drop, especially in colder climates thus the capacity would need to be there to overcome those losses. Meaning more turbines.
Then there is the issue of storage. On hot muggy days when there is little to no wind for weeks on end, where would the power come from to charge the cars?
I still maintain that these alternatives have severe limitations that the public generally are not told.
The issue is still academic, we wont make it there.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
Oops - I just clobbered a lengthy rebuttal to this. The gist was:
1) Headlights consume about 100W, which represents less than 1% of the power consumption of an EV driving at 60km/h @ 150Wh/km.
2) Heating similarly requires less than 1% (50,000l of air can be heated by 30C using the energy required to drive 1km and a heat pump, and that represents roughly an hour of running the heat vents).
3) Canada's electricity mostly comes from hydro power, meaning it has tons of pumped storage already available, and has no storage concerns.
4) Wind turbines are ~100m tall, and wind is both stronger and more reliable the farther one gets away from the ground. Accordingly, concerns about lack of wind are largely overblown.
Also, battery charging efficiency is already taken into account - that's what "station to wheel" means.
Ok, for the moment, I'll conceed that your numbers are correct, and the US only needs to build 110,000 3MW turbines as someone suggested. So let's see if that is doable. If you could build 3 a day and that's from nothing, then manufacturing the components, transporting, then erecting the turbine and have it fulling functioning in just 3 days, it would still take 100 years to build that 110,000 turbines. Even if we could embark on something like the WWII effort and crank them out as fast as we can, there would be a huge lag time before it could get started. People would have to be trained, factories built to make the turbines and hundreds of cranes built to erect them. There is no way that may turbines can be built even in 20 years. We dont have 20 years!
Thus I maintain that even if it is theoretically possible for an alterntative to be scaled up, it can't be scaled up in time to meet the demand we have now and keep this party going. If we wanted to be serious about alternatives, we should have planned and built them 50 years ago.
But as I did say before, get as many built as we can now, as people generations now will kiss our tombstones that we did.
BTW, Ontario has to import electricity during high demand days from the US because our population is beyond our current production.
And 2, I once took a balloon ride and at 2,000 ft the wind was barely 20km/h and I asked the pilot and he said that is normal. In fact, it dropped to less than 10 at one point and he had to go down near the ground to get it at the 20 again. I've checked the maps of windspeed published for Ontario and it averages 20-22km per hour. On the hot summer days when a high pressure ridge comes through there is virtually no wind at all, even at the tops of turbines, which can last days and even weeks.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
Wind power, grid-installed, is about $1500/kW (nameplate), translating into $4.5M per turbine, or $495B for the set.
The US manufactured $1600B worth of goods last year, or over three times that amount.
I doubt it could be done in a single year, but 3% of manufacturing capacity each year for 10 years is by no means a stretch.
How do you know what the wind is doing 100m up?
Not to mention that turbines get placed in the most favourable areas, since long-distance power transfer is so efficient. I'm really not at all convinced that you're correct in asserting Ontario would see little or no power from wind for weeks on end.
I believe that Nuclear power can be scaled up faster than wind. But wind power is doing quite well and will be significant. Do not use back of the envelop guesses when you can look at actual build rates and actual projects. ie Building 3 a day blah blah. Multiple countries, multiple builders per country working at the same time. Can one builder make 2 million homes in one year ? No, but that was the actual US completion rate because you have a lot of people building homes.
73,904 MW total installations as of 2006
Which is equal to about 25GW of nuclear installation because of operating load.
Germany has over 18,000 turbines with avg size of a little over 1MW. the latest installations are 5MW and 6MW units.
By 2010, the World Wind Energy Association expects 160GW of capacity to be installed worldwide.
The 20GW build rate of the next 4 years would produce 330Gw additional in 15 years. After 2010 the size of new wind turbines will be 7.5-10MW and probably still getting bigger. The kitegen system could radically improve the situation. Winds are stronger and steadier at 800meter and up. Building on mountains and hills would provide access to even stronger and steadier winds.
Wind past and predicted by industry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power
MW of installed capacity
2005 2006 latest 1 Germany 18,415 20,622 21,283 2 Spain 10,028 11,615 12,801 3 United States 9,149 11,603 12,634 4 India 4,430 6,270 7,231 5 Denmark 3,136 3,140 6 China 1,260 2,604 2,956 7 Italy 1,718 2,123 8 United Kingdom 1,332 1,963 2,191 9 Portugal 1,022 1,716 1,874 10 Canada 683 1,459 1,670 11 France 757 1,567 12 Netherlands 1,219 1,560 13 Japan 1,061 1,394 14 Austria 819 965 15 Australia 708 817=========
http://advancednano.blogspot.com
The US is building about 3.5GW of wind in 2007, and that's about 40% more than 2006.
A 40% rate of manufacturing ramp-up is pretty sustainable for some years. If we kept that going for just 10 years we'd be at about 100GW per year!
Realistically, I think we'll stop at about 25GW per year (which would take about 6 years, at that rate), and maintain that for several years, and then taper off some. Solar will scale up by that time, and start to take over the lead. Nuclear will start growing again in about 10 years.
Logistic functions are often used to model the adoption of new technologies (e.g., link1 , link2), so I took the data on wind power capacity from 1997-2010 and fit it to a logistic (sigmoid) curve that assumed at most 5% of the world's current manufacturing capacity would be devoted to turbines.
A sigmoid turns out to be a very good fit to the data - the predicted capacity additions over that period differ from the input data by only 0.01%. It predicts capacity addition of 61GW in 2015, by which time total installed capacity should be 390GW, or about 10% of world electricity (including capacity factors and consumption growth). At that point the growth rate will have fallen to 16%, from 21%.
Fitting a sigmoid is very robust to changes in the assumed maximum rate. Changing the maximum to 2.5% of manufacturing (125GW) gives a result of 375GW installed in 2015, or 4% lower, whereas changing to 10% of manufacturing (500GW) gives 399GW, or 2% higher. Capping the maximum at 1% of world manufacturing, which is lower than the amount currently devoted to building power generation, results in 334GW installed, or 14% lower. Of these alternative maximums, the 5% maximum gives the lowest fitting error with the input data points (0.011%), 10% gives the next best (0.012%), then 2.5% (0.12%), and 1% (0.84% fitting error).
Based on that, the available data strongly points towards continued rapid growth in wind power under a business-as-usual scenario, with wind reaching 10% of the total installed power base by 2015, and 20% by 2020. Jerome a Paris had an article a while back arguing that electrical grids could take up to 20% of their power from wind with no changes, so beyond that is somewhat more speculative.
For what that's worth.
I consider this to be a fairly realistic model, given the assumption that no massive economic shocks occur, since it's based on fitting a standard model of technology adoption to the real-world data (with enough data points to make a good fit), and the results are very stable to changes in the parameters. Something like this would be an appropriate estimate for models of the future, although it may need to be modified if severe economic dislocation is indicated by the data or (more likely) assumed by the modeller.
The best-fit equation ended up being 250/(1 + e^(0.191524*(2020.883-Y))), which gives the number of GW of nameplate wind capacity added in year Y. e.g., plugging in 2010 for Y gives 27.7GW, as compared to the 28GW added in the original data.
Pitt,
I like your curve fitting and the idea about share of manufacturing capacity as a roof. There's just one detail, which I don't think affects the general argument, but puts things off few years.
390 GW of wind would produce close to 1000 TWh (conservative rule of thumb: multiply wind capacity by 2500 full load hours). World total electricity production was around 17 350 TWh in 2005, so it would be less than 5% of world total when consumption growth is accounted for.
Can you run the calculation again, I'm very interested in the results? I mean when we would get to 10% and 20%. And there's no 20% limit. There's just increasingly more integration costs, which at some point will start to include more intermediate-peak capacity besides costs from operating the power system in more variable mode.
Apparently my estimate of consumption was wrong, then - thanks for the correction.
You can easily calculate the amount of capacity added in any year just by plugging in the year to the above formula, so the amount installed by a certain year is just the sum of years before it. Advancing from 2015 to 2030 gives ~2600GW of installed capacity, which is 6,500 TWh; assuming 2% consumption growth, that'd be about 23%. 10% is hit in 2021, 20% in 2028, 1/3 in 2037, and 50% in 2066.
By then the assumption that at most 250GW is added per year is really a limiting factor. More sensible would be to put the maximum at 5% of current manufacturing capacity, rather than 5% of 2007 capacity, which would lead to faster growth. Slotting that change into the formula above results in 20% by 2024, 1/3 in 2029, and 50% in 2034. That's an estimate, though, since I haven't re-fit the curve (don't have the spreadsheet here).
It might make more sense to fit a curve to the installed capacity rather than to the yearly change of capacity, though, and if I remember I'll do that tomorrow. That would have a very natural maximum for the logistic - the current rate of electricity consumption - and so should give an interesting result.
Another alternative would be to fit a logistic to the proportion results - i.e., what percentage of electricity was generated by wind in that year. That's closer to the "technology adoption rate" paradigm that the references used logistic curves for, so might also be good. Either would be better than what I actually did. Oops.
Doing this yields the following equation for the fraction of electricity generated by solar in a given year: 1/(1+e^(0.17968*(2031.58-year))). I used 2500 hrs/yr to convert between kW and kWh (~28.5% capacity factor), and 3% annual growth in electricity consumption (based on EIA data).
It predicts 10% of electricity generation will be wind-powered between 2019 and 2020, 20% in 2024, 1/3 in 2028, and 50% in 2032.
Capacity added in 2032 is predicted to be 900GW, which would cost ~$1.35T today (~15-20% of current manufacturing). With an estimated 3% annual growth in manufacturing capacity (2/3 of recent GDP growth rate), that would represent 8-10% of manufacturing capacity, which IMHO is probably too much - I think it's about 2-3 times the level of manufacturing currently assigned to building generating capacity. Per EIA data, ~100GW nameplate capacity was added in 2005; at ~$2000/kW, that would be $200B, or 2.7% (based on my estimate of world manufacturing capacity of ~$7.5T), so my personal opinion is we wouldn't see much more than 5% of manufacturing used to build generating capacity in a business-as-usual setting.
Of course, I think it's very unlikely that a model as simple as this one would be at all reliable that far out, or that high into the buildout. A model like this is probably a reasonable indicator of where the trends are pointing maybe 10 years out, provided the current economic environment remains the same (which, of course, it won't).
Fitting a logistic to either the capacity-added-per-year data or the fraction-of-total-generated data gives ~2020 for reaching 10% of overall generating capacity, though, so I'm guessing that's a reasonable estimate, at least based on current trends. That'd represent wind generating ~2,700TWh, which would require (nameplate) capacity of ~1TW, as compared to capacity of 0.16TW in the last year for which we have an official estimate (2010). Doesn't seem unreasonable as a default assumption.
Thanks for trying it another way. My thinking would be to ask would US manufacuring grow substantially through technology export, wind or solar, owing to a favorable climate for industrial growth? If the US is exporting 30 or 50% of its domestic production, the fraction of total manufacturing would not be all that important. We have shifted so much of the economy to service, there is quite a lot of room for industrial growth. Rosie the Riveter is now Irene the Insurance Clerk, but a bit of single payer makes for lots of potential workers and a more competitive stance on exports.
Chris
I think wind industry won't be able to keep up the growth rate that GWEA has predicted up till 2010. After that they can do grow faster again when new factories are scheduled to come online, but until then there are too strict supply chain constraints, especially with bearings and gearboxes. Furthermore, the industry itself would like to take the growth more easy, due to the bad experience with failed gearboxes in the last few years (oh well, the gearboxes might have been ok, but they were put into more rough use they were designed to take). If you grow really fast, then you have more risk if your design has problems. Wind turbine manufacturers would also like to make money in a market that's not getting enough turbines... On the other hand, most of the players don't want to lose market share.
I think that you want to apply the sigmoid to the cumulative installed capacity. Applying it to the annual installation would yield, at the end, a costant rate of rapid addition of capacity. If there is a maximum need for electricity, then we should stop adding more capacity once that is reached. So the values you are fitting (annual additions) should go to zero. From your equation, it looks like it goes to 250. Seems to me you want to fit the time deriviative of your function or else fit to cumulative capacity. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you did?
Chris
"Don't confuse capacity with actual output of a wind turbine."
I didn't. All of my calculations take "capacity factor" into account.
"The actual physical output is 20% of capacty "
Not in the US. It's pretty much 30%.
"As for turbines replacing gasoline, do it in joules per hour. "
That's not the right way to do it. Gasoline engines are about 15% efficient on average: the average US engine uses 6x as much energy, in joules per kilometer, as does an electric vehicle.
"How many have actually been built in the US so far, I can't seem to find a definative number, "
The US has about 13GW in capacity right now. Many of them are older, smaller turbines, so the number of WT's would be misleading, as no one will install small WT's in a wind farm these days.
OTOH, wind is growing fast. 20% of 2006 new US generation capacity was wind. At this point the US organization of utility System Operators has received interconnection requests for about 120GW of renewables (almost entirely wind). Again, only about 110K WT's, or 330GW of wind would be needed to replace gasoline in the US (3GW wind turbines @30% capacity factor, 210K light vehicles, 12k miles per vehicle, and .35 KWH per mile)....
For some context,that 330GW is 4x as large as the currently-installed amount of wind power (globally) and about 20x as large as the amount added (globally) in 2006, and the typical size of turbines (at least in Germany) is just over 1kW, although models up to at least 5kW exist.
Accordingly, the idea of building that many turbines is not at all ridiculous - indeed, 25% of that capacity is projected to be installed (world-wide) in the next four years alone, even in a business-as-usual setting. Were people to believe that wind power was an economic priority, one would imagine the construction rate would increase substantially.
(As an aside: Nick, do you mean 210M light vehicles? That's the current US fleet, and IMHO would take much longer to replace than the generation capacity needed to power them.)
"the typical size of turbines (at least in Germany) is just over 1kW"
Of new WT's? For new installations I would have expected 1.6MW mostly, with 3MW starting to arrive.
"do you mean 210M light vehicles? "
oops. Yes!
" would take much longer to replace than the generation capacity needed to power them.)"
Well, yes, in their entirety - there's always a long tail. What's really more useful is the median figure: 50% of miles travelled come from vehicles less than 6 years old.
OTOH, yes, I agree, I think the transition to PHEV/EV's is a more difficult problem than the electricity to supply them.
No, no - I'm just dividing the 20,000MW capacity by the 18,000 turbines already installed. You're doubtless right that the newer ones average larger.
Not to mention that 50% of miles travelled are almost certainly unnecessary. At least.
But, yeah - using the US vehicle manufacturing capacity, it'd take only about a year to build the wind turbines necessary to power those 210M EVs, but 10-15 years to build the EVs themselves, so energy availability isn't likely to be the problem.
As I noted in some of the links that I have already provided. The current largest WT that are being installed are 6MW and 5MW (GE makes one of them). 3MW have been installed for a few years.
10MW superconducting prototype should be ready in 30 months.
There is a 7.5MW development based on refinement of current technology.
There are radically different projects like kitegen which could achieve 20 times lower cost, 8 times less land area and 8 times less material. Would tap the 800-1200 meter wind which is about twice as fast and has 4 times the energy content per square meter and is more consistent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany
More than 18,000 wind turbines are located in the German federal area and the country has plans to build more wind turbines. Germany is the world's largest user of wind power with an installed capacity of 20,621 MW in 2006. So the average size is a little over 1 MW.
Germany plans to add 15GW more wind power by 2020.
http://www.ewea.org/index.php?id=60&no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=42...
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http://advancednano.blogspot.com
Nick,
Just a back o' the envelope calc. The point being that renewables have much lower output than their nameplate ratings suggest, say 25% of possible. Baseload plants like big coal and nukes have outputs approaching 90% of possible.
I think I used 25% for renewables and 80 or 90% for the rest. You are correct that lots of gas-fired generation has lower capacity factors because they are peakers or intermediate loaded.
Yes, the government is throwing lots of money at renewables through tax incentives and sweetheart deals. Developers are responding to the financial incentives. I think it is mostly a waste. In a freer market, very little of it would get built.
"renewables have much lower output than their nameplate ratings suggest, say 25% of possible. Baseload plants like big coal and nukes have outputs approaching 90% of possible."
Yes, but it's not that important. What is important is the $/KWH, E-ROI, and scalability, all of which are just fine for wind, and getting better quickly. FYI, the Nuclear Energy Institute gives 29% for wind, 73% for coal, 90% for nuclear.
"Yes, the government is throwing lots of money at renewables through tax incentives and sweetheart deals. Developers are responding to the financial incentives. I think it is mostly a waste."
Joseph, I understand your enthusiasm for nuclear, but given the latest incentives (and Price-Anderson) for nuclear, isn't that a bit of kettle, pot & black?
"In a freer market, very little of it would get built."
In a truly free market, with carbon priced in, no coal would be built at all. We'd have lots of renewables, and some gas. We'd have no nuclear, unless we decided to continue Price-Anderson. I hate to say that, because I don't want to start an argument, but, really nuclear is dependent on government - maybe PA is a good idea (if you feel nuclear is essential, than PA is necessary to prevent "freezing in the dark"), but you have to acknowledge it's importance.
More importantly, wind is now cheaper than natural gas generation, even without subsidies. That's part of the reason it's exploding.
Its good work and a good model, though I would love to see it as dynamic and be allowed to play with it.
One point, you are making the assumption in the population aspects that there would be even greater differentiation into have and have nots. Much of that comes down to your assumption of 'price'.
First, do you think 'price' will remain the arbiter of distribution?
Second, what is 'price' and 'value' in the world you paint?
Third, do you think those scheduled for 'population reduction' will take the news quietly? What price 'price' as the arbiter?
1. Yes, I think price will stay as the arbiter for much of the energy market, although some parts of it (like the world oil market under the influence of a net export crisis) could move to other mechanisms, such as F-18s and smart bombs.
2. I think "price" comes down in some sense to the reallocation of discretionary consumption as well as a traditional monetary definition. Value is tougher, as it varies from situation to situation. I'd say that the value of a commodity changes depending on how important it is to you, how much or little of it you have, and whether you can pay the "price" as defined above. Take the value of fresh water to a man on foot in the Sahara vs. a man on a canoe in Northern Ontario...
3. Of course those on the pointy end of the stick are going to object violently. I don't think it will make that much difference to the big picture because we don't have the technical means at our disposal to rival the effects of starvation and disease. And that includes thermonuclear weapons. A die-off like the one this model projects could not be accomplished by warfare - we don't have enough bullets. Warfare could trigger social breakdowns that would release the real killers, but I have my doubts whether even that would have a truly global effect.
Consider what might be called the 'non negotiable' model of population and energy development.
As we coast down the slope of oil supply, each country considers it standard of living and growth to be sacrosanct. Those with exports favour internal demand first, and even reduce exports to extend supply. Those with high tech military look to take control of producers. Those with numbers look to take control by medieval means. Others offer protection in exchange for oil. Still others seek other means such as aggressive development of alternatives, or more hidden approaches.
The end result is a swift stage of the game, as alliances form and are destroyed. We've got to assume some supply is destroyed here as well, making things even worse.
A stalemate is reached.
Governments turn inward and seek to reduce unnecessary usage at home - where unnecessary doesn't mean what those here would think. People are confined to their area, usage is cut and redirected. People are regimented.
People revolt, rerunning their own game of non negotiable with similar results. Regions fragment, scale decreases, a stalemate is reached.
At no point has 'price' in conventional sense been an issue. People have reacted to the change in circumstance by redistributing wealth (energy) in disregard to the 'market'. The movement from a high energy intensity to a low one has happened not in a smooth curve, but in a step. With that lower intensity, the future usage is curtailed, timescales lengthened and the opportunity given for something very new to grow.
It comes down to my problem with predictions that inherently expect 'business as usual' in some form or other - when the game changes ALL the rules can change. The least likely outcome is that the situation will stay the same as we know it. Social forces are more important than 'price'.
I agree that all of what you propose will occur in one form or another in one place or another. the problem with trying to make a quantitative projection based on such considerations is that they are all opinions. While they are interesting to read and think about, it's not possible to have any sort of objection based on analysis - objections all become some variation of "I don't f'ing think so!
This time I wanted to have a bit of fun with numbers and see if by using quantitative BAU as the foundation of the projection whether the outcome would pass a qualitative sniff test.
Don't be silly, that's not even true now. Just off the top of my head, Switzerland and Germany have substantial energy-conservation movements that are trying to convince people to adapt their lifestyles to lower levels of consumption. Plus the "buy local food" folks all over the place.
Bush Sr.'s "the American way of life is not negotiable" was in reference to a specific set of negotiations, and is not an overall mantra for the country. Without that level of intransigence, your apocalyptic fantasy falls apart.
Apocolyptic fantasy seems apt. I remember scolding an earlier post on this same kind of modeling. But, let's look at this plot:
We see a doubling behaviour over roughly 10 years between 2000 and 2010 but look at the time it takes to double from 2024: 16 years! If other sources of energy are declining, how can this possibly be right? In fact we are seeing doubling every couple of years in developed economies and this is likely to carry over to developing economies as scale brings prices down further. Renewables in this model never rise above the maximum nuclear capacity but this is clearly wrong because they'll achieve that is under 20 years at the present rate of growth, that is the line should already be off the scale by 2030, and there is little to slow them down until they reach three times that level. The added blue line is slightly less than 30% annual growth.
Remembering that the pyramids were built with somatic energy, and man tend to keep his tools, this study seems rigged to give an unrealistically dismal outlook.
Chris
Interesting the fact that I've posted here a repply that was censored. I imagine people are getting tired of my rants.
A pity.
When people splash nonsense with "gentlemantish" manners they get to have "guest posts", when people call for reason in not so stylish a manner, people are censored in comments.
I guess people enjoy more good-manners than the truth.
I'm this close to call this site a lost-to-cultists site.
I very rarely delete a comment, but you may have noticed there are several of yours missing. Abusive rants will simply not be tolerated. As you have already been warned, but continued to make highly inappropriate comments, and stated your intention to continue doing so, your account has been temporarily blocked.
It's usually unwise to project exponential growth too far into the future, since there's a maximum reasonable rate of construction.
That rate is pretty high, though. The US produced about 11 million cars in 2006, or somewhere in the neighbourhood of $200B of car manufacturing (@ ~$20k ea). Compare that to the roughly $20B spent on adding new electrical generating capacity in the US (@ ~$1500/kW), and it does seem like the manufacturing capacity exists for rapidly adding large amounts of wind power.
Careful - anything that is "clear" is more often a belief than a derived conclusion. In particular, extending current growth trends out 20 years is very speculative.
That being said, I don't see any reason why that level of growth could not happen - the manufacturing capacity is certainly there - so if there's a need for it, it'll likely happen.
I think the numbers of manufactoring that you present are very interesting and pretty much close to what I thought.
I believe the main constraints are political and bureucratic. The countries that resolve themselves faster will have a good advantage.
Yes of course Pitt but don't you see, people don't wish to ride to work on windmills:)
Think about it, they don't even want to wear sensible shoes.And again:)
LOL, but they surely will fight the windmills-:)
I would add that Morgan Stanley is much more in line with the blue line I added to fig. 11 than with the black line. Reading past a typo, they also stick their neck out to predict $1.60/W installed for solar by 2030. At 5 h peak equivilent of sun per day, on a 25 year warranty, that is $0.035/kWh delivered. Much lower than the current price of delivered electricity. If you decide to keep on using the panels for a century instead of a quarter centrury, you can expect 66 years of equivilent new use so your price is $0.013/kWh. The term "too cheap to meter" has been abused but you can surely see why the abuser is demading $25 billion in loan guarantees. They know their new plants will not be competitive and so they want to stick us with the construction cost without producing anything. These are bridge to nowhere projects.
Chris
At 5h/day, each watt will generate 5x365=1.8kWh per year, or 45 kWh over a 25-year lifespan. $1.60 / 45 = $0.035, but that doesn't take into account the cost of financing.
$1.60 now is worth about $11 in 25 years @ 8% rate of return. Using the earned income to reduce the accumulated debt, and assuming that electricity prices rise with inflation (2%), there will be the equivalent of 156kWh of earnings, meaning that each kWh needs to sell for $11 / 156 = $0.070 (in first-year dollars). Taking into account other costs such as grid infrastructure, that's likely to mean electricity prices in the range of $0.11/kWh.
That's still pretty good - the cost to generate is $0.044/kWh in today's dollars (2% inflation, 2030 start), plus grid and other costs. That's pretty competitive with conventional sources, and much better if externalities are considered, but it's not super-cheap. Even extending the lifespan to 100 years pushes the generation cost down only to $0.054/kWh in 2030 dollars.
The situation doesn't change an enormous amount with different rates of return on investment. 7% return only shifts the payback up by one year (@ $0.070/kWh), and 10% return pushes it back a year.
Do you really think people are going to finance $8000 for a 5 kWp system? Maybe, but I'd guess they would lend to themselves our of retirement savings which means they keep the the interest they pay. I'm pretty sure Morgan Stanley is working in today's dollars so you'd want to avoid projecting inflation onto the grid cost. But, I think you also want to compare the cost of delivered electricity rather than wholesale.
I think your point about taking into account the cost of grid infrastructure needs to be thought out fairly carefully. Currently this is done using connection fees; around $8/month for residential self-generators. As the fraction of self-generators moves to 30% the model for this may have to change because the benefits of self-generation in reducing the utilities' need to expand their own peak capacity and trunk transmission probably begin to be saturated at this point. It seems to me that there are a few choices. Self-generators might sweeten the deal by providing utilities access to onsite storage. Self-generators may simply leave the grid by relying on onsite storage. Or, large investments is coast-to-coast very high voltage transmission increase the value of self-generator sources and uitlities make more on sales of self-generator supplied electricity. Increased equatorial utility-scale generation may develop this transmission method along north-south lines by that point so that this will be the most efficient method. KSA is certainly investing in this direction. The big unknown here is the ultimate cost of storage relative to transmission. Very cheap storage eliminates the need for the grid where very cheap available power does not, I think. The latter simply changes the grid arbitrage model.
Chris
But they lose the investment income they would have earned. It works out to be exactly the same thing.
I guess you could count it that way, but then, if solar power beats all other investments why worry? If grid power costs you $0.10/kWh and solar $0.035, your rate of return is pretty high. So, it would be hard to find a foregone investment that compares. I think this kind of dithering applies more to current costs.
Chris
There's a much simpler way to calculate this: just calculate the payment required to pay off a $1.60 loan over 30 years at 8% interest (If you want to assume electrical price inflation of 2%, then I would think the simple approach would be to reduce that by 2%). Now, divide that by the number of kilowatts generated per year (5*365/1,000).
That works out to $.065 per kwh, so that's the cost of your PV electricity.
Now, compare that to the current average retail price of electricity of $.10-11, and it's clear that PV at that price (fully installed) would be a bargain.
In fact, PV below $2.60 a watt would be cheaper than average retail power, and could be expected to explode. Add in peak pricing of $.15/kwh, and the break-even is $3.70, which I believe Mdsolar's has claimed is achievable now.
If it's not now, it's mighty close.
It's simpler, but it doesn't give the same answer.
$1.60 @ 6% interest over 25 years is $6.87. Generated kWh is 1.825 per year, or 45.625 over those 25 years. $6.87/45.625 = $0.15/kWh.
The problem with that approach is it assesses compound interest on the money borrowed, but not on the money earned, so it'll overstate the cost substantially.
Perhaps I'm slow today, because it's not clear to me what you're doing.
Let's say we take out a loan for a kilowatt of PV, for $1,600, to be repaid over 25 years, at 6% interest. The loan payment (principal & interest) will be $125 per year: that's your annual cost. Now, you'll generate 1,825 Kwh's each year. Divide $125 annual cost by 1,825 annual production, and you get cost per KWH of $.069.
Does that make sense to you?
Okay, that makes more sense. It's basically the same as what I was doing, but with everything rolled into a flat loan payment.
Working from first principles, it was easier for me to do it with debits and credits accumulating, but if you have a loan payment calculator, your way's probably easier. Even if there are minor differences, such as from inflation, this is all back-of-the-envelope enough that they're functionally the same.
"if you have a loan payment calculator, your way's probably easier"
I just use a "pmt" spreadsheet formula :)
Hi Nick,
We claim to be profitable at $0.07/kWh, but remember that we are a startup so we could be wrong. It'll be much nicer to have money coming in on systems like that and be able to say that other systems are not subsidizing those. But for that you need a factory which is not built yet. Remember also that solar is subsidized with a 30% federal tax credit and it has accelerated depreciation as well. I think we have to do better than $4/Watt. Franchises will be opening is some markets in Q1 08 and will do some installations using panels from the market rather than from the factory. These will be used to exercise the monitoring software and workflow. They are in markets where some state insentives are available but the approach is cautious because there is concern that we could exhaust those an make things difficult for other installers who depend on them.
When we are talking about $1.60/Watt installed, I just don't see the point of financing over 25 years. Wouldn't you set payments equal to what the grid would cost you and pay it off quicker? I suppose if you bought a home with the equipment in place you might go for 30 years just to avoid the hassle of seperating the thing out but really, we are only talking about the cost of a high end stove and a fridge. I doubt you'd borrow more than three years for these with the first year interest free. I think the comparison with long term financing makes sense when solar is dicey compared to the cost of grid electricity, (can the payments equal the electric bill?) but when it costs no more than a sort of usable used car, why would financing be a big issue? A lot of items like that are bought for cash.
Chris
"When we are talking about $1.60/Watt installed, I just don't see the point of financing over 25 years. "
The use of a loan framework is just for analysis purposes. In order to evaluate the $/KWH (or, indirectly, the $-ROI), you have to set the term of the analysis to equal the life of the investment, in this case the panels.
Now, they will probably last longer than 25 years - I used that because Pitt The Elder used that. I would use 30, as I think that's a good balance between performance deterioration and the overall much longer life of PV.
" I think we have to do better than $4/Watt."
So you expect to beat $4/watt, fully installed?
That is my calculation of what is needed for me to get paid on a $0.07/kWh rate system. The company has stated that each system will be profitable, not aggregates and that is our floor price. The estimated at the gate cost of the panels is $1.53/Watt so you have to do 16% sales, labor, inverters, and franchise overhead with what is left. Inverters should be in good shape because Rob Wills has a lot of experience there. The main trick is getting the labor to flow well. The modular design should help along with labor saving equipment that is hard to justify in lower volume operations. When I estimate all that it looks feasable but very tight. But it is important to make market penetration as broad as possible because reducing the panel cost needs a big factory that runs all the time.
The first installs are not going to make this limit. There will be a high cost for panels and learning curve issues but the initial markets are selected to compensate for this.
Again, I think that the loan framework makes sense when solar is a close call (as here) but once it is a complete nobrainer I think that framework gets in the way of understanding what actually happens. If solar is THE cheapest option, you'll only go with something else if solar is not an option for you.
So, knock on wood. I think this is going to be an interesting ride.
Chris
Sorry, but two things:
1) Don't confuse a green movement for substantial change in energy consumption. If anything it's the mix that's changing, not the level. Also don't forget the gas imports from Russia - turning off that tap would freeze many countries in one winter. In general I think the EU game plan is less confrontational than most, but even so the breaking point is much closer than you seem to assume.
2) You make the mistake of ignoring human nature and assuming people will accept significant decline, even imminent death, with a fatalistic shrug. Its not intransigence, its survival. If they break today to keep their SUVs, or tomorrow to keep their heat, at some point they do break and they do reorientate power structures to a stalemate balance condition.
It's simply not credible to assume oil export X will continue as it has before while oil importer Y collapses and millions die. The pain gets spread around, no fantasy there.
The movements I mentioned were explicitly about reduced consumption.
Even if true - which is doubtful at best - what does that have to do with what I was talking about? Are you suggesting Russia would cut off Europe's gas in the middle of winter, and the Europe would go to war over it?
Why on earth would Russia want to do that? And do you really think Europe would go to war rather than put on sweaters and share apartments? Do you have any evidence to back up your speculations?
Uh, no.
My contention is that people won't go to war over minor shortages - those seen during war-time rationing, for example. By contrast, you seem to be assuming they'll go to war - which entails voluntarily accepting substantial suffering - to avoid any reduction in their lifestyle, no matter how trivial. Choosing great suffering to avoid trivial suffering seems remarkably counter-productive, and I have yet to see any evidence that people would do such a thing in this context.
In other words, I'm not "ignoring" human nature; I just don't think you know what it is.
You're quite right - your assumptions about collapse and dieoff are indeed not credible.
Conservation only goes so far. Just wait and see how the German population likes having the lights go out as their leftist government shuts down all their nuke plants.
Once things become uncomfortable or worse, unlivable, due to conservation and belt tightening, the public will revolt.
Besides the "buy local food" is highly limited. In places where there is only one short growing season the population is supported only by massive importation of food from tropical regions. Places like Southern Ontario, where I live, simply cannot grow enough food in the summer to support the current population here. Nor would the population take too kindly to eating only stored and preserved foods for 10 months of the year.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
First off, thank you for this painful and unvarnished look at our current trends. You're putting yourself out there for some cheap shots by making huge extrapolations about renewables, etc., but somebody has to get the SWAG ball rolling.
For me, this is the story:
"The net oil export crisis may well be the defining geopolitical event of the next decade."
We should hope with all our might that this statement is true, because otherwise it means that some even more apocalyptic event has shoved PO off center stage.
Two points:
Warfare can most certainly kill off people by the billions, if need be. The tools are pneumonic Plague and pulmonary anthrax. It hasn't been necessary in recent wars, so the toll on the IP's (indigenous population) has been declining since the Thirty Years' War. But when food and water become more dear than slave labor, the function and purpose of warfare can swing back overnight.
And I don't want to quibble about such a large-grain view of energy, but where is (nonrenewable) biomass? Doesn't much of the dollar-a-day world depend on hand-gathered brush for cooking and heat? Surely that resource must have already peaked in India, for example.
On future food
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/07/aquaculture-meat-factories-and-...
Aquaculture - fish farms are already huge.
High rise greenhouses/urban aeroponics
Roughly 150 such thirty story buildings, Despommier estimates, could feed the entire city of New York for a year.
The promoters of vertical farming were noting that there were enough abandoned buildings which could be converted to the purpose of food supply.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21154137/
Cloned meat would guarantee the copying of the highest productivity animals. Those that are most efficient at turning feed into meat or milk
Stem cell meat factories, Cultured meat isn't natural, but neither is yogurt
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2006/06/other-tech-test-tube-meat-event...
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http://advancednano.blogspot.com
GliderGuider, I hate to keep getting Medieval on you, but I wanted to comment on
"A die-off like the one this model projects could not be accomplished by warfare - we don't have enough bullets."
At the battle of Marignano on Sept 12, 1515, 18,000 men, mostly Swiss pikemen, were killed in a single day by crushing and cutting weapons. My point is, while disease will kill more humans, a lack of bullets won't slow some traditionsl techniques for population control.
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami
In Rwanda 800,000 were killed in 100 days with machetes. Warfare is a lousy tool for reducing population directly, though. Just to bring our net birth rate of 75,000,000 per year down to zero through warfare would require 100 Rwanda-equivalents per year. And that would just stabilize the population.
The real population-reducing effects of a modern non-biological war would come from the disruption of electrical supplies and food distribution networks. This could be done through hitting transportation nexuses and electrical distribution points.
Of course as others have pointed out, if you really want to reduce population through warfare you go biological.
Are you proposing to do such a thing?
Did this happened during the Great Depression?
Where are your sources on this?
Past references? (spare me on Rome)
...
Exactly.
"we don't have enough bullets"
Yep. The average number of bullets for a single kill in most modern warfare is somwhere around 40,000. That's 40,000 rounds fired to get one kill. We need less Miniguns, not more.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
With the prospect of 150 million deaths per year can anyone seriously believe that taking up arms will be overlooked? That is only one of the motives for war like human behavior that this article illuminates.
First thought: I'm glad I don't have kids. At least I don't need to worry about what they would have had to go through. Furthermore, I feel that I am at least a little less to blame for causing this horrific mess.
Second thought, and a selfish one, please forgive me: I'm glad that I'm looking at a remaining lifespan of only 2-3 decades at most. It looks like I'll be gone before I see the worst of it.
Third thought: With regards to renewables (and I would include hydro with those), given the dire prospects we are facing, rather than just projecting the trend lines forward, wouldn't a better approach be to determine what is the maximum possible level we might have any reasonable hope at all of reaching, and work backwards from there? I am certain that we are not going to be able to replace fossil fuels on a 1:1 basis, but neither do I believe that it is necessary to do so. Cut out all of the waste and junk that we can do without, and get more efficient with what we absolutely still need, and the amount of activity that needs to be supplied with energy drops to a fraction of present levels - a fraction that we might feasibly be able to supply with renewables. While it is important "reality therapy" to confront people with the stark future that we may be facing, it is also important to show what positive actions are within the realm of possibility.
Fourth thought: The only problem I have with the population modeling is that human beings - both individually and collectively - have a way of behaving in unpredictable ways that cannot be modeled. For example, what model in the 1950s or even mid 1960s could have anticipated China's one-child policy? Can we be sure that similar policies will not be adopted by other nations in the future? Furthermore, given the amount of wastefulness inherent in our energy use (not just in terms of inefficiency, but also in terms of use for things that do nothing needful for the support of human life), I would not be so sure that a decline in energy supply will inevitably translate into an immediate and proportionate population decline.
Ultimately, humankind must adapt to a sustainable economy. It is quite doubtful that a sustainable economy can support a population of 6 billion, 7 billion, or more. We will most likely have to transition down to a lower population level. I don't pretend to know how low that ultimate population level will be, or how long it will take to get there. It may still be just possible to make the decline a little slower and a little less drastic.
Regarding the modeling of renewables, I started out using the approach you suggest for both hydro and other renewables, but I was uncomfortable with how indefensible that approach was. It starts from an opinion, and works backward through more opinion. I felt that there was enough opinion in the piece already, and I wanted to use a quantifiable basis for projection wherever I could. Besides, I was seduced by those nice tight R-squared values...
Ultimately, neither approach changed the outcome by much.
In other words, "why assume 'business as usual' for renewables, even in the face of massive crisis?"
There seemed to be no effort to replace lost energy in the model, like it was about a hypothetical humanity that didn't even care whether it lived or died. Without explicitly considering replacements and other mitigation efforts, the model's results can't be taken as at all realistic.
A similar study was posted in September at Energy Bulletin and The Oil Drum:
Global peak energy:
Implications for future human populations
by Chris Clugston
The conclusions appear to be similar:
...The maximum supportable worldwide human population level will peak between the years 2025 and 2030 as well, and decline continuously thereafter—assuming the continuation following global peak energy of the historic relationship between the total amount of energy consumed by human populations and corresponding population levels and material living standards.
Energy Bulletin / The Oil Drum
The discussion that followed at The Oil Drum is probably relevant to this paper as well.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
Yes, Chris and I have exchanged emails. There have been a few TOD articles on this theme over the last year.
GliderGuider -
I was struck by how closely your peak dates match - similar assumptions?
It might be useful to add links to other similar studies. One study is easily dismissed; multiple studies pointing in the same direction are not.
Bart / EB
Nuclear energy
You do not take into account powerplant operating extensions, power uprating and looking at the historical build rate which peaked in the USA at 12 reactors in one year in 1972. Worldwide the number of nuclear plants completing previously peaked at 24 in one year.
In the USA nearly 50 reactors have been granted licence renewals which extend their operating lives from the original 40 out to 60 years, and operators of most others are expected to apply for similar extensions. In Japan, plant lifetimes up to 70 years re envisaged.
Worldwide 8-10 reactors will be completed in 2010-2013. The rate of completion is increasing. New reactors are increasing in size to 1.3-1.6 gigawatts each.
Power uprating up to 20% of existing rated power is standard. There is technology from MIT (donut shaped fuel, nanoparticle additives to the water) which can allow 50% power uprate to existing and new reactors.
The current orders have not fully considered new climate change bills like the one before congress which will increase the cost of coal plants. The EIA projects that nuclear and renewables could triple by 2030 in the USA with the adoption of one of the climate bills. You use EIA data so why not the EIA study ?
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/csia/index.html
Latest on climate change bill in the USA
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/09/coal-compared-to-green-measures...
The EIA projection analysis of the McCain/Lieberman bill which is similar to the Lieberman/WArner bill which is the current reference bill
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/08/more-on-mccainlieberman-climate...
Why are you looking at made up guesses when you can look at actual projects.
The global nuclear reactors that are expected to be completed by 2013 have names, locations and are being worked on right now.
http://www.uic.com.au/nip19.htm
Power uprating for the US nuclear power plants over the next 5 years have reactor names, percentage amounts. The Completion of Watts Bar 2 is on a 5 year timeline.
The information hydro work in China is known by location and amounts.
========================
http://advancednano.blogspot.com
One thing I did factor in (but didn't mention in the article) is rolling 10-year life extensions for ten percent of the installed reactor base.
I'll look at adding in power uprating, thanks.
As I indicated 50% and increasing with extensions to 60 years already.
http://www.uic.com.au/reactors.htm
The EIA projection for the McCain/Lieberman bill (a climate bill is pretty much a slam dunk by 2009)
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/csia/execsummary.html
Projections for 2020 and 2030.
On the renewables side
Kitegen project, up to 5 gigawatt wind generators, order of magnitude lower cost and land usage and 8 times less material (concrete, steel)
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/10/kitegen-follow-up.html
10 MW superconducting wind generator (30 month project) Largest existing generators are 6MW.
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/10/american-superconductor-develop...
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http://advancednano.blogspot.com
So with extensions to 60 years and 70 years for most reactors. Then only 10% of the reactors which are smaller and inefficient nuclear reactors get decommissioned. The reduction in capacity is offset by power uprating. Then the new plants add to the capacity. So there is no dropoff in nuclear generation and with climate change bills the growth in nuclear and renewable power accelerates.
Up to 3700 billion kwh (nuclear and renewable in the EIA projection, S280 no international) for 2030 out of a total of 5300 billion kwh.
The uranium reactor component production is being increased. Areva and others are setting up other suppliers for reactor vessels.
100% funding of loan guarantees up 80% of any carbon reducing power source (nuclear and renewables)
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/10/pro-nuclear-ruling-in-usa.html
thermoelectronics could increase overall efficiency
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/10/thermoelectronics-for-cars-truc...
Massive adoption of electric bikes and scooters in Asia will reduce demand for cars while maintaining efficient mobility especially with folding bikes combined with transit
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/08/clean-vehicles-in-india-and-chi...
Constructing a lot of nuclear power plants is not constrained by material
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/2007/07/constructing-lot-of-nuclear-pow...
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http://advancednano.blogspot.com
advancednano, thank you for quantifying everything. My intuition is that these numbers are correct. I'll spend some time verifying them.
GilderGuider, while your projections for Oil and Natural Gas, are likely correct, I'm by no means convinced your projections for Nuclear and Rewnewables are right.
There are a variety of advanced solar projects that could maintain the 50% year-on-year growth we've seen in solar until the penetration rate gets to 10% at least.
Political opposition to nuclear is limited to Western Economies that have other alternatives and if these don't pan out, nuclear will be (re)developed there.
For example, France will maintain it's nuclear investment. If Germany finds itself with blackouts in 2020, the people there will either build nuclear (or reopen their prematurely closed ones) or migrate to France.
I think the predominance of political opposition to nuclear power in the West will turn around before 2010. All the momentum that advancednano has documented is building before there is a widespread understanding that we are peaking in all fossil fuels. All the Republican presidential candidates in the US are now for a significant nuclear buildup.
Once the majority of people in the west really appreciate the crisis we are facing, they will favor massive building of all sources that can really address the problem, well beyond the most aggressive cases documented above. Today this means nuclear, wind and solar. I do recognize that there will still be vociferous opponents.
Or just buy from France, like Italy is doing.
--
Just remember the Golden Years, all you at the top!
advancednano,
Sure, FPL has started the application process to add two more reactors at Turkey Point in Southeast Florida, so I'm sure it's now on the happy-face list.
Turkey Point is sited to use seawater cooling. A 5 meter rise in sea level will put it under water. I wonder who the hell is gonna decomission that hot piece of $#it when the ecomony is rapidly contracting and waves are battering the containment building. There is s cold hand on my heart, accompanied by a feeling that part of the human legacy will be a bunch of nuclear plants being knocked apart by waves and earthquakes while being scavenged for metals by descendents who don't even know what the hell it is (was).
Whom the Gods would destroy, they first make insane.
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami
I'm not anti-nuke, but I am anti-poorly-sited nuke.
We need to have a tougher set of siting criteria before we get going on this ramp-up of nuclear capacity that everyone knows is inevitable. For a start, I would suggest at a minimum:
Rule 1: Just because a utility wants a nuke doesn't mean it automatically gets one within its service area. It only gets one within its service area if there is an acceptable site within its service area.
Rule 2: All new nukes must be built far enough away from active fault lines, volcanoes, coastlines, and other hazard areas to assure that they will not be damaged by any natural disasters. Distance from coastlines will be calculated in terms of worst case global warming sea level rise projections, plus an allowance of at least an extra 100-250 ft in elevation to allow for storm surges and tsunamis.
Rule 3: All new nukes will be built well DOWNWIND and DOWNRIVER of any major population center.
Rule 4: No nuke will be built at a location that is too close to a natural "bottleneck" for land or maritime transport.
Rule 5: No nuke will be built at a location that puts its water supply needs in excessive competition with the water supply needs of area agriculture, industry and residential populations.
To build ANY nukes in locations that violate one or more of the above criteria is shear insanity. There must be plenty of potential sites that DO meet the above requirements, so there is no excuse to not limit new nukes to those locations only.
I would propose two refinements to your model.
First, most nuclear capacity has a 60 year useful life and maybe longer. Small prototype plants (say, 60 MWe) have been shut as uneconomical but commercial, full sized plants routinely have their initial 40 year licenses extended to 60 years. New plants are being designed and licensed for 60 years. We might even do better given the motivation.
This won't change the conclusions, just mitigate them a tad.
I'd also appreciate an idea of what ramp-up rate for nuclear would really make a difference. From that, I could estimate the resource requirements to support it.
My second point is that alternatives to oil exist as described in the SAIC report we all were discussion a couple of years ago. I did some rough estimates that suggested we could stabilize oil production with a 4% field depletion rate by investing at about double the rate of current global E&P efforts. That would require maybe $500 billion a year on SAIC's alternatives.
Of course, I will continue to argue that almost all alternative "renewable" energy sources are closer to energy sinks than real productive assets.
"just mitigate them a tad."
On the other hand, I think it is reasonable to suppose that operating licenses on all major nuclear power plants will, after a great deal of hand wringing, be extended and re-extended until after the great collapse. The effect of regulatory relief to distressed electrical generator companies will be the aggrevate the problem.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSSHA31210120071016
Uranium prices
http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_Prices.aspx
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/28/business/uranium.php
Looking out to 2100
4 billion tons of Uranium in seawater. 1 kilogram from a japanese trial collected.
http://jolisfukyu.tokai-sc.jaea.go.jp/fukyu/mirai-en/4_5.html
Out to 2100 look for complete burn through plants, increase usage from 0.5-2% of fuel to 100%. Molten salt reactors etc...
http://www.google.com/search?q=uranium+seawater+japan&sourceid=ie7&rls=c...
==============
http://advancednano.blogspot.com
Very impressive contributions to the debate.
Glider:
Please clarify your reasoning on the population in 2100. I see how you estimate the carrying capacity of Earth to be 40% less than what it would have been had there not been an overshoot. But where do you get a defensible number for the unperturbed carrying capacity? You seem to equate it to the population that would have existed in 2100 had there been no perturbation. Why? Or is there another reason?
www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html contains a useful table of historical estimates of total world population. Linear interpolation in this table indicates that world population was 1 billion around 1830. How this relates to the current situation is not clear. Surely advances in human knowledge would justify estimating the carrying capacity as vastly greater than the actual population in 1830.
Or maybe use for comparison, 1915 when world population was ~1.8 billion (equivalent to unperturbed estimate for year 2100). Based on reasoning in your presentation, could one reasonably suppose that, after an undershoot to 1billion, world population might stablize at around 1.8billion as the ecological damage heals?
The population baseline shown in Figure 14 is comes from a simple division of the total energy available over time by a SWAG of the average per-capita energy consumption at that time. The 2100 value for p-c consumption is 1.0 toe/yr.
The growth in human knowledge would enable a larger population, but the underlying ecological damage would more than counterbalance that, IMO.
Regarding the healing of that ecological damage, how long might it take for the oceans to repopulate, extinct species to reappear, topsoil to regain its lost fertility, the aquifers to refill, the glaciers and icecaps to re-form and the global temperature to drop enough to alleviate the droughts and flooding? That's a forlorn hope in any realistic time frame, I'm afraid.
I've been here at TOD for quite some time, but believe me when I say this, I've never seen such big BULLSHIT sprayed so thin in here for so many words such as in this "essay".
Spare me with this Die-Off rethoric A L R E A D Y ! !
It's a bit late in here, so I'll have to postpone my pick on pick analysis, but it won't be polite.
Like some scientists would like to say:
It's not even wrong.
One of the reasons I tried to lay out my assumptions as clearly as I could was to give those with differing views an opportunity for substantive and reasoned rebuttal. I'll look forward to reading your detailed commentary.
A reasoned rebuttal would require a reasoned post. As this one is absurd, you should allow others to respond in a manner befitting the post instead of deleting comments.
If the situation is hopeless as you portray, then why bother to write about it? If you really believed what you wrote, then you wouldn't even bother to write it.
Maybe you would stand by and do nothing while the world fell apart around you, but luckily, there are many people who won't. Once you understand this, you will understand why your post is worthless.
GliderGuider didn't delete your previous comment - I did, as Editor, because it fell well below the acceptable standard of discourse for this site. Please comment in a respectful manner.
Writers who point out that we are facing very significant challenges in this century are not cheerleading for the downfall of humanity, nor wallowing in hopelessness.
Sensibleenergy, I suspect if anyone is standing around doing nothing about the situation it is people like you. How does cheerleading about possible technical fixes help solve the problem unless you yourself is in active research? Even if you did want to actively help humanity how would you do it? Become politically active? That sure works in a society where a person such as Bush gets elected, fundamentalist senators thrive, and even mainstream candidates cannot openly talk about our future problems without fear of becoming unelectable because the “marching morons“ cannot comprehend the message and want to hear good news. Is it any wonder the founders of the US had a great fear of the “masses”? Better read your history and discover the iron fisted tyrant is not an anomaly; in fact peaceful functioning democracies are much more rare. It is trying times such as the ones we will see that will make these tyrant monsters more commonplace. What is ironic is that it is the doomers that are making preparations, albeit for themselves and not for the benefit of others who would derail their preparations or make them extremely difficult. So go ahead, shout your “solutions” on this board and others hoping that the deaf ears of most society will hear them, enact them, and stop their wasteful ways; I’ll just continue farming my land with organic methods and low usage energy and just maybe be able to preserve something worth saving the parts of humanity that haven’t caused this problem in the first place.
I don't think I cheerled any technical fixes. I don't have any vested interest in any energy source, although I do help provide one. Yes those of us who actually provide energy will continue to do so. But providing energy won't fix the problem, will it? Because energy is the problem, right? People using energy, lots of people using lots energy. Oh the horror.
Hi SensibleEnergy,
I'm having a problem understanding you. Do you accept no limit to the production and use of energy?
Of course there are limits, but we are nowhere near them. It is an easy exercise to show this. It has been done repeatedly on this site, but everyday the doomers pretend like they have never seen it before. While the doomers believe that the worlds population needs to fall drastically to have enough energy, I believe that the world needs lots of energy to become stable. By lots, I mean about half the American per capita energy usage for the entire world. I agree with a lot of the solutions proposed on this site, but this doomer post is absurd.
Hi again,
In about a hundred years we have used resources like there was no tomorrow. Many of our mineral resources (see current article on TOD) are peaking, our forests destroyed and it looks like if we want to eat fish in the future we'd better can some now. Our agricultural base has been badly eroded and we have been fighting over the remaining oil. All more energy will do in the quantities you suggest is to continue as we have been doing. I do not think that 'doomers' think in terms of: the population needs to fall, merely that it will fall. The world has an economy of its own and looking at the world I think we have reached its limit.
What I think you and I should be doing is to move ourselves and those about us to a lower energy lifestyle now, in order to preserve our resources for current and future generations . I think there will be a future if we do not use everything up now in one big glorious party. We have a fire burning up our resources and throwing gasoline on it will not help. That's my opinion, maybe somewhere in between yours and mine we will be both right, eh?:)
"Many of our mineral resources (see current article on TOD) are peaking,"
Actually, if you read the comments, it becomes clear that almost all of them, like mercury & lead, peaked because better substitutes became available.
Okay, will do, blame it on paper conservation, I just copy the articles to read at night. Can I amend that, for the moment to 'one day all that stuff will run out due to problems at the pump'?. Meantime I think I am on fairly Solid Ground with the fishes:)
" I think I am on fairly Solid Ground with the fishes:)"
Yes, I think so, especially because of acidification of the oceans. Loss of food from the ocean will be a big problem.
OTOH, can't we reduce our need for "primary" food production by about 90% just by becoming vegetarian and swearing off various cash crops like tobacco, coffee, coca...?
Hi Nick it looks like that 'discussion' comments of yours and mine have gone missing but I thought I would get back to you anyway to say that I found a couple of population figures.
Bombay runs about 20.1 births per thousand while the country as a whole is 22.69 per thousand. I couldn't find anything that would separate the urban from countryside.
This would indicate to me that it is not even prosperity but a need for security that could be the prime driving factor in population decrease.
_____________
Stoneleigh if you have deleted comments between Nick and me, would you let mew know the reason, if not then I guess it was a glitch in the system? Thank you.
hhmmm.
Well, urban areas in India are more prosperous than the countryside.
You may be right but here is something on Bombay (Mumbai) and if this is prosperous I would hate to see the countryside. I would imagine that the countryside is where lot of Bombay hailed from?
http://www.megacitiesproject.org/network_mumbai.asp
I think that while Socialism a la the Soviet union has come undone or failed as some would say, it was our last best chance. It failed not only from within but largely because it was feared by way of its ideas of the communal rights trumping individual rights and so was fought by the capitalist west from it's inception, well before Stalin and his lot.
It also was handicapped by its losses during WWII of 20 million citizens as well as much infrastructural loss. Its major antagonist the USA came away relatively unscathed and richer for that war experience. Oops sorry Nick got sort of carried away there, but I guess you get my drift? That if we look after each other and share the food pot it might be possible to reduce the population? Violins enter, choir sings ..."to dream the impossible dream...."
"An estimated 55% of the city population live in slums"
My understanding is that about 25% of the population of india are considered middle class or better. The rest are living pretty hard lives...
.
Bombay's slums are pretty notorious, even among Indians. By contrast, consider Madras:
"The city has the fourth highest population of slum dwellers among major cities in India, with about 820,000 people (18.6% of its population) living in slum conditions."
i.e., a city with pretty bad slums has a proportion only 1/3 as high as Bombay. The article indicates that the total slum population of India is ~16M, meaning Bombay - where about 40% of India's slum-dwellers live - isn't a representative example.
If the entire world used half the American per capita uses then the population would continue to climb. The whole point of the orginal article is that the planet is over populated now, not ten or even twenty years from now. It's over populated now and the only thing keeping us afloat is the energy and resources we consume at an ever increasing rate.
To claim that there is no problem now, and that we can just keep finding and refining energy usage to more people, begs the most important question of all. How far up does the population have to go before you agree we are now over populated? 9Billion? 12Billion? 24Billion? In 100 years it could very well be 24billion.
Those of us "doomers" as you call us, see that the current trend is unsustainable, let alone having more in the future. Because we see the other issues, not just energy, that have a hatchet over our heads. Soil depletion, fresh water deplesion, deforestation, depletion of the fish stocks, unsustainable debt economics, and for those who want to include it, climate change.
What is coming is the "perfect storm" scenario when a bunch of problems come together to magnify themselves to the breaking point. As many have noted, all species go through this over shoot. But what has not been explained is how that often gets triggered. In most biological systems the population can take some of the environmental changes for some time. Bend with the wind as it were. But at some point, there is a breaking point where the population crashes, often hard to a very small number of remaining individuals (when speciation happens). The biological term for this is Punctuated Equilibrium.
We will follow the same path. We will soon be hit with some trigger that will start the punctuated event. One scenario I see is a very prolonged cold winter and part way through natural gas supply runs low. This would freeze tens of millions. The economy would collapse without natural gas. Each winter so far have been warm enough to stave off such depletions, but from what I've read we've come close a couple times.
So you can continue to deny and take a wait and see, or we can participate in some form of either personal action, or trying to get a national action program going.
I fully agree with Darwinian. The worst thing that could happen, in the long run, is no peak oil.
Richard Wakefield
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
All serious population projections (e.g., UN, US Census) predict that the population will level off at around 9B sometime this century, and then will decline gradually from that level.
So, basically, your fundamental assumption here is wrong.
"see that the current trend is unsustainable"
I think most trends are. Saying a trend is unsustainable is not the same as saying that the current system is unsustainable. There are two kinds of inifinity
You can continue a series as long as you like.
or
You must continue the series forever.
Whenever doomers talk about trends they invoke the second kind.
So what do you see as the limiting factor that would prevent a population of 9 billion using 1/2 American per capita energy use ?
That's unfair. Even though I disagree with almost all of his assumptions and conclusions, his article was reasoned. It's much more useful to calmly point out the flaws in it than to be insulting.
21 weeks is not all that long.
YNTFABOSAWYMO..get it?
In 2006, the US produced 53% as much oil as at its all-time peak in 1970, and in 2007 is running 15m bbl ahead of its 2006 production through July, so I don't see how you're saying it's lost 2/3 of its production capacity.
Also, that decline rate - 47% over 35 years - is 1.8%, not 3%.
It's possible you're referring to the lower 48 states of the US rather than the US as a whole, but then that should be stated clearly.
As shown in the example of China - which consumed 0.75toe per capita in 2001 - the claims of 15th-century agriculturalists using 0.75toe are either dubious or not comparable.
Even in 2001, China was an industrial powerhouse, with a burgeoning high-tech industry and hundreds of millions of relatively-affluent urban residents. While one certainly can't discount the hundreds of millions of poor farmers, China in 2001 is an existence proof that the level of energy consumption cited for "agricultural man" is enough for modern industry.
So, in particular, there's no indication that energy consumption below 1.0toe will lead to the massive dieoff you predict. Chad, for example, has consumed only 0.01toe per person for the last 12 years, but has seen its population increase by 50% in that time. Accordingly, it is a known fact that large populations can survive on vastly lower energy consumption levels than 1.0toe.
Your first link on topsoil depletion claims this, but USDA data shows that per-hectare farm output in the US has been steadily increasing, and climbed about 30% in the 15 years leading up to 2004.
Neither of your topsoil links are good about citing sources for their claims, and some of their claims contradict available evidence; accordingly, they're not reliable sources. The sole source for your second link, though - http://home.alltel.net/bsundquist1/se0.html - does provide a substantial number of references, and would be a much more reasonable source to cite.
If you start with the belief that modern civilization is inherently destructive, of course you're going to get the conclusion that it's doomed. It won't be a very useful reasoning process to anyone who doesn't share your initial assumptions, though.
No, we're staring at the results of your personal assumptions.
If they're not correct - and I haven't found your arguments convincing that they are, given your under-counting of non-thermal energy sources (10toe of electricity = ~25toe of coal), your drastic over-estimate of the energy needed to survive (75x more for 15th-century men than Chadians?), your reliance on pessimistic sources with dubious credentials (e.g., the previously-discussed coal report), and your model's apparent lack of any serious effort by humanity to replace its dwindling energy supply with alternative sources such as nuclear/wind/solar/conservation - then all of your conclusions fall away.
That doesn't mean life will be all happy roses forever, of course, but it does mean your massive dieoff is unlikely to come to pass.
Pitt, I thank you sincerely for your comments. And I'm sure Roger Connor does too :) Please keep up the good work!
Regarding Chad:
Where do you get the 0.01 TOE energy number from?
WIKI facts:
Population is 10 million, only 2% have access to electricity, only 45% have access to safe potable water, most are subsistance farmers that are being affected by the persistant droughts (look at Lake Chad's size decreasing by over 70%) and the main energy for most of the population is from wood and dung, and nearly all of the oil that is produced is exported. Without imports of food, would the ten million population be reached in 2005? Probably not.
Note average lifespan is 47 years in Chad, the fifth poorest country in the world.
Mark in St Louis, USA
EIA per capita energy consumption data. Their per capita table is in million btu, so divide by 40 to get toe.
Food imports provide 4% of food consumption in Chad.
I'm not saying it's a fun place to live; I'm saying that they're alive, notwithstanding their consumption of 50-100 times less energy than that assumed for a 15th-century European agricultural man.
Accordingly, I'm saying that the minimum energy required to support large populations is much smaller than has been assumed. Heck, India consumes less than half as much energy per capita as that theoretical "agricultural man", but it supports a powerful high-tech and manufacturing industry, complete with a space program.
I don't know where these numbers come from, but this is plain utterly silly.
What did the French peasant in 1450 do with all that energy?
The article you're commenting on right now.
My question exactly.
The only thing I can imagine is the fact that France/Europe is in what we call a "temperate" zone - meaning it can get very cold there. Someone living in France needs much more energy to live than someone in Chad.
Middle Europeans used horses to pull heavy deap plows. (2x more efficient than the ox.) Horses were fed Oats (biofuels!-). Plows needed the smith. Every village had a smith (input = wood) AND a mill (usually water/hydro, but also wind). European agriculture was *very* energy intense.
Sorry, don't have the numbers to support this.
Hello,
I am normally respectful of my Elders. Mr Pitt, I am sure many would agree, is quite the learned person. However when he types
"If you start with the belief that modern civilization is inherently destructive,of course you're going to get the conclusion that it's doomed."
Are you for real? Have you just arrived from a Galaxy far far away? All your bluster and ridicule of this mans work. Please, oh Please, could you post one of your seminal works? Or are ridicule and pettiness your forte? From much of what I have read I expect so.
f3
"If you start with the belief that modern civilization is inherently destructive,of course you're going to get the conclusion that it's doomed."
Is this statement wrong? Conclusions usually follow one's givens. Wrong givens, wrong conclusion. Implied in Pit's statement is that he does not see modern civilization as inherently destructive.
Do YOU?
Cheers, Dom
I'm looking for wriggle room that might allow for a slightly less drastic die off. What fraction of your renewables estimate is due to biomass? It seems to me that this energy source has two features:
1. it is not necessarily dependent on high level technology.
2. it has the possibility of actually mitigating global warming (without demanding high technology)
But honestly, I can't see how these two effects really change things much.
Also, what is 'SWAG'? (used in your response to my earlier post)
I think we will use a whole lot of biomass. As in, "Cut down every tree in sight and burn it." That may mitigate one problem, but creates a host of others. Similar considerations apply to using purpose-grown biomass. That amounts to mining the soil for energy, and eventually entropy bites you in the ass. Terra preta is a great idea for carbon sequestration, but using biomass for fuel strikes me as being an EROEI and ecological loser from the git-go.
SWAG is a "Scientific Wild-Ass Guess".
"Cut down every tree in sight and burn it."
This is what happened on Easter Island according to Diamond in a recent article in Science. But I was thinking of the possibility of a more rational and measured response, like maybe creating more pasture land and growing horses and oxen, etc. And then thinking about how much good effect each plausible response might have.
The broad outline of your argument seems surely correct. Carrying capacity is a valid ecological concept. Applied to homo s., it surely implies a world population less that the current 6.6 billion and more than world population that existed some time in the distant historical past. So we are currently in a state of overshoot.
This unproven assertion is repeated in doomer die off threads more often than I can count. Its total garbage.
OK, I haven't proven it. Its just a guess that I thought might further the discussion. I was trying to get at some discussion of what might be the effect of changes in the input numbers to the model. Glider argues for 1 billion. I think some of his reasoning about renewables might be improved upon. Renewables is small enough in his estimation that getting it lower hardly matters to the conclusion. Only if its larger will the conclusions change.
Of course if you can develop a good argument that carrying capacity is really greater than, say, 60 billion, well more power to you! That would really change the outlook for the future! But remember, we're talking about carrying capacity after the oil is pretty much gone.
There's no reason to assume nuclear power alone can't be expanded to meet the energy demand of all of industrial civilization for the next several millinea. The only reason to assume it wont is because something (wind, solar, fusion, whatever) will do it better.
This has been explored in several essays, notably "How many people can the earth support." by Joel Cohen. The question has different answers depending on the choices you make and the technology avaliable. I would assume that the population supportable by subsistance farming is at the very least 2 billion, given that's what it approached in 1900 before mechanization of the global crop farming. With high technology climate controlled hydroponic greenhouses you could easily support hundreds of billions of vegetarians. The notion that we're periliously close to collapse is ever popular but not particularly likely in my view and we have no reason to believe it. That its taken as a forgone conclusion as a premise in an argument speaks a little about the credibility of such arguments.
Dezakin,
The agricultural technology in the US in 1900 was not sustainable long-term:
Whale oil, which had already peaked and crashed, was replaced by petroleum, which will....
A huge amount of steel (produced with coal and high-grade ore) was already in use for horse-drawn rakes and harvestors, coal-powered trains and rails, and steam tractors
Yields were already being goosed by guano (thousands of years accumulation run through in a century) and potash (from burning off Northeastern forests)
Despite the above techniques to increase production, Americans still ate Passenger Pigeons to extinction, wiped out the bison, and started the process of overfishing cod
If the world could have supported two billion with 500 CE technology, the world population would have been two billion in 500 CE !
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami
"...no reason to believe it?"
None?
Spent much time in South Asia?
and
This sort of statements always makes me slighty dizzy - has everybody else than you missed something? Even the Joel Cohen you quote seems to say that 5 billion is just possible sustainably.
And your assertions about nuclear are outright ridiculous. I think even the nuclear industry wouldn't make such claims sincerely. What facts are they based on?
Davidyson
Me, it used to make me laugh, but it wears out pretty quickly.
Both the things you quote are so infinitely braindead, it's hard to come up with an answer. But not to worry, people like Dezakin offer no proof for their statements anyway. It's easier that way, or so I hear.
That is one of the emptiest things I've ever seen. You tap a skull and ask if anyone's home. But, as I said, no proof, not even any kind of reasoning, just a big hole.
And the sweetheart tops it off with hydroponics. He has no idea what that is. Feeding billions with no soil.
We have this noise factor here at TOD:Canada, loonies who leave the closet to be here. It's striking that there's a handful that used to show up in other threads, and after a long pause decided to honor us with their presence.
No, really, look:
He can't poissibly be talking about us, that's clear.
Dezakin is looking ahead towards our conquest of Mars
He simply has a different view on Uranium, based on facts and not assumptions. Current stocks and resources are some 10 Mtonnes, but only considering for a price. If price doubles, (which already has) it has been proven that uranium will probably be tenfold. This has yet to be proven, but it is not a wild card at all.
We are passing through a bottleneck though, and not an easy one.
Well, there are other views on uranium supply, based on facts and not assumptions, like the Energy Watch Group study on this topic.
(http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Uraniumreport_1...)
Also, Uranium supply is not the only issue, as you know but choose to ignore. There's proliferation, safety issues in the whole supply chain, nuclear waste "management", and the net energy question.
Cheers,
Davidyson
Cut the crap. Are we really choosing between total mayhem in our energy industry and "safety issues"? If total mayhem happens, you'll have your safety issues all bend over.
Now this would almost make sense if you had adressed all the other issues, too.
If the choice were simply between nuclear and mayhem, I would support nuclear, sure.
But I think it isn't. I think it's a choice between mayhem, nuclear mayhem (which likely means immediate mayhem just in the developing countries and possibly later mayhem in the developed world, as reserves peak) and controlled reduction of energy use, mainly in the western world.
One thing I do not understand is how you can talk about peak oil being solved by nuclear ignoring completely that a huge number of countries just doesn't have the industrial base to support anything like nuclear technology. Look at Iran. They have some of the smartest people in the world. They have lots of money from their oil production. Still, they don't have nuclear (yet), the Busheer reactor has been built by the Russians!
So for whom could (very theoretically) nuclear be the 'solution'?
Cheers,
Davidyson
Hah. The primary data comes from the infamous storm/smith report. Funny funny.
You know, where they got their results from uranium resources by using pseudo-scientific mathematical models that were in direct opposition to the university of melbourne analysis which actually made measurements of mines and plants in operation. Facts, not assumptions huh?
Well, you can discuss about aspects of these studies.
But it really strikes me that some people with the best intentions come to the conclusion that uranium will peak in 50-80 years at today's consumption level while others assert it will last for centuries at almost any rate of nuclear buildup.
Something's dead wrong here.
Given that there are similar claims about oil from both sides (imminent peak vs. oil will last forever), and I know which predictions I