Book Review: World Made by Hand

World Made by Hand by James Howard Kunstler

When I read James Howard Kunstler's (JHK) book The Long Emergency, it had a profound impact on me. I had been aware for many years that "running out of oil" was a serious matter. After all, I took on the challenge of peak oil in my graduate thesis in 1995. But my focus was more on finding a source that could replace oil as it ran out. Reading The Long Emergency was the first time it really hit me that I was missing a lot of key pieces of the picture.

The impact of The Long Emergency wasn't necessarily because I thought JHK's vision of the future was correct, but it made me think about possibilities. It caused me to look at the suburbs in a new light, and to really appreciate how vulnerable the U.S. is to oil shocks. It made me realize that problems will start to crop up – not when we run out of oil – but simply when supplies can't meet demand. In the U.S., we built a society based on cheap oil, in which one can live 40 miles from work and drive a gas guzzler to and from work each day. As I read his book, it sank in that this model was likely to come to an end sooner rather than later. And just as soon as I finished reading it, I got a copy of Matt Simmons' Twilight in the Desert and read it. Those two books helped me decide that I needed to start trying to educate people about energy issues.

In JHK's latest book – World Made by Hand – he shares his vision of life after oil. It's a far cry from the future I imagined as a child; a future in which man was conquering the galaxy and we were all flying around like the Jetsons. The future JHK evokes resembles the Wild West of 150 years ago – except with a few modern touches surviving.

The book is set in upstate New York (JHK's home state) in the fictional town of Union Grove. In this world, life is very hard. There are no cars, electricity is rarely on, wars have wiped out major U.S. cities (Washington D.C. was wiped out on my birthday, 12/21), religion has made a resurgence, warlords carve out territory, and lawlessness is rampant. But communities are much tighter, the food is healthier, neighbors lend a helping hand, and people have to be a lot more self sufficient. I believe these latter aspects of the future world represents a future that JHK would like to see.

As with his previous book, this one caused me to think about possibilities I had not previously considered. I spent a lot of my time pausing to evaluate whether I felt like a particular scenario was likely. I think if you accept the key premise – that no more oil is available – then the future he envisions is probably pretty close to the mark. Oil provides all kinds of conveniences that we take for granted, and I doubt the average person realizes how different their world would be if the taps dried up. Yet that is the world that JHK has produced in this novel.

But that's not the way I think things will play out. If you read between the lines, the book is set no more than 15 years into the future. The date is never given, but there is a mention of a woman in her 90's who was a nurse in WWII. Assuming 20 as a minimum age, then the setting of the book is some time between now and maybe 2025 at the latest. I simply don't believe we will lose our mechanized transport options in that time frame.

On my recent trip to India, I saw a lot of people who were using very little fuel, but were still getting around by motorized transport. We have such a tremendous amount of fat that we can cut from our fuel consumption. It may be that by 2020 we do have a lot less oil available, but oil will still be available. And some countries – Brazil for instance – are not likely to run into supply issues for many years. It is hard to envision a world in which the U.S. has no more access to oil, but Brazil is motoring happily along. Even though there isn't much mention about the rest of the world in the book – mainly because there is little communication with the rest of the world – I couldn't help but imagine that in JHK's world there were a lot of countries that would have been able to maintain their fuel supplies.

The book touched upon a lot of themes that I have thought about over the years. Long before I was involved in writing about energy, I was a student of evolutionary biology. One of the things that my studies made me appreciate is that modern medicine has allowed many genes to persist in the gene pool that centuries ago would have been cruelly weeded out by evolution. What that means is that most of us are carrying around genes that are only mildly deleterious in the age of modern medicine, but could quickly shorten our life spans without modern medicine. And in this book, JHK pulled modern medicine out from under the population. The result is as I would expect – vast numbers of people died out. I have speculated before that without modern medicine, more than 90% of the population would likely be dead within 10 years from conditions that today don't trouble us too much.

Consider your own health. Have you been hospitalized for appendicitis? How many times have you required antibiotics to treat something common like strep throat? Have you required surgery? These are all things that can kill without modern medicine. So I have a great appreciation for modern medicine. When I go to a developing country like India that's one of the first things I think about: Do the people have access to modern medicine? Without modern mecicine, I shudder to think about having a serious, painful injury or illness.

Another theme that I have thought a lot about – and that JHK tackled in the book – was mining of the municipal dumps. I have often thought about the amount of metals, useful plastics, and just various odds and ends that would be of enormous benefit in a resource-depleted world. I have no doubt that regardless of how the future plays out, there will come a time that we are mining the dumps regularly.

One thing that I haven't discussed yet is the story itself. I really didn't expect much from the story. The real story for me was what a world without oil might look like. But the underlying story was actually pretty good. The characters are really interesting, he makes the relationships interesting, and he throws a few surprises into the mix. I have to hand it to JHK – he tells a good tale. Some of the characters (and names) seemed a bit over the top, but otherwise I found myself wanting to know what was going to happen next. So I got a bonus in that aspect.

If you are like me, and you enjoy thinking about possibilities (good or bad), then this book is definitely food for thought. If you want to remain oblivious to the threat of peak oil, or are otherwise convinced that technology will enable the status quo to remain, then you probably won't care for it (although again the book is worth a read for the story itself).

Footnote: JHK responded to this review via e-mail. He thanked me for the review, said he felt that it was "goldurn fair", and added "Of course any thinking person can come up with alternate valid scenarios that differ from mine in particulars (of what the future may actually be like). I took some 'literary liberties'... Mainly I compressed the time scale of 'Long Emergency' conditions gaining traction....

In some sense, any projection into the future is a form of fiction, so this book seems like a useful exercise and one that could be usefully replicated by others.

We need to imagine a future without oil or at least one with considerably less oil so that we can also imagine a way to construct a viable world that is beset by scarcity.

Instead, most of us, including our politicians, are imagining, if they imagine at all, a world unconstrained by what will actually occur. Imagining this future that does not require real change will significantly increase the probability of disaster, hardship,misery, and pain. It is that shock, that unexpected blow to the head, coming out of left field, that will kill you.

While imaginings of a future world are useful, Kunstler's dark jeremiad is too pessimistic to help the cause of changing minds. People are repulsed at his insistence that we shall all be forced back into a world where central governments do not function at all, skyscrapers are abandoned, people flee cities and suburbs become derelict wastelands. Kunstler is a misanthropic curmudgeon whose bile has colored everything he writes. His education extends to an Arts degree in Drama, and boy, does he know how to be melodramatic! I've communicated privately with him about various issues, but stopped when he had a knee-jerk negative reaction to any possibility that technology would survive "the change" and that humanity would retain some post-medieval advantages. In many circles he is simply a laughing stock. Even his wife left him.

If an accurately imagined future is sought, the book "When Technology fails" (reviewed here by Richard Heinberg recently) is the book you want:

Thanks for the reference, Mamba.

It's been mentioned here before, but I'll mention it again: World Without Oil is a near-future look at the first shock of the arriving future. Eerily plausible...

Hi Robert. I read the book a couple months ago. I thought it was a good background of what we can expect, not it 15 years, but maybe 100 years, or 50 at best. I think we are going to be in a chaotic state for decades. I was also a bit put off by the supernatural suggestions, but that's just me.

I have something else you may be interested in if you like his book. Can you email me off list please? jrwakefield@mcswiz.com

A book published in 1982, Seven Tomorrows; Seven Scenarios For The Eighties And Nineties, written by Paul Hawken, James Ogilvy and Peter Schwartz is an admirable work in that it laid out a quarter of a century ago what our options were and the consequences of decisions deliberately made. Every few years I go back and reread it around Earth Day.

The Authors may have missed the timing by a decade but so much of what they wrote at that time is unfolding now. It feels to me like we are on the bubble with three of their potential scenarios as paths for the future; Apocalyptic Transformation; Beginnings of Sorrow; or Living Within Our Means.

It sounds like a World Made By Hand would be at home in Living Within Our Means. Apocalyptic Transformation (gets us to same place but with much greater friction) and Beginnings of Sorrow is not at all a future I would want for (if I had them) my grandchildren.

I am afraid we are, at this point whistling past the graveyard. Choices made 50 years ago have unwittingly created the future we will live/survive in for the next 50 years.

The headlines and underreported stories of the last five years (and in the last year particularly) continue the drumbeat of a world moving in the wrong direction on so many fronts it is difficult to be rational and optimistic at the same time.

My take on "Seven Tomorrows":

During the Carter administration, the US had started down the "Mature Calm" pathway.

"Apocalyptic Transformation" was kind of thrown in largely on the strength of the Evangelical revival then underway. In retrospect, it largely describes a path not taken, as that movement largely got captured and subverted by extreme right-wing elements. The evangelical movement was largely seduced into serving Mammon rather than God. This resulted in the evangelical movement being largely marginalized rather than being transformative, and thus reduced to not much more than a historical footnote.

With the Reagan, there was a very conscious and deliberate effort to move the US back on to the "Official Future" pathway.

We stayed on the "Official Future" pathway for about two decades. Then the Bush II administration came along, and 9/11, and the whole world started coming apart and becoming more dangerous. Welcome to "The Center Holds". This perfectly describes Dick Cheney's USA.

The center isn't going to hold, of course, we all know that. Even as I write, it is quite obvious now that we are moving rapidly into "Chronic Breakdown".

The next few years are going to be a massive struggle to try to at least keep it at the "Chronic Breakdown" stage, or maybe even turn things around. Sadly, "The Beginnings of Sorrow" describes what actually may be a slightly optimistic vision of our likely future.

The other path we won't be taking would have lead us to "Living within our means". That is the scenario that I suspect that a lot of us are hoping for. Unfortunately, I doubt that you can get there from here. If we had kept on the "Mature Calm" pathway, then "Living within our means" would have been the logical next step (assuming that "Apocalypic Transformation" was improbable). Since we reversed course and turned our backs on "Mature Calm", though, the preconditions have not been created that would be necessary for an evolution into "Living within our means".

Thus, "Chronic Breakdown" describes our immediate future about as well as any 25+ year old scenario could, and "Beginnings of Sorrow" comes close to describing what we have to look forward to in another decade or two.

Pretty bleak thought, I'm afraid.

There seems that there are quite a few who have looked at the same issue as JK with very interesting insights. I find JK's writing is hilarious though. Have you ever heard of the Plan B series?:

http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/PB3/index.htm

Yes, I have PB 2.0 in my shelf. I like it in that it presents somewhat realistic plans for solving many large-scale environmental problems, at a quite modest cost, especially comparing the cost of "saving the world" with the mind-boggling amounts the world spends on weaponry is an eye-opener.

OTOH the message of the book is quite depressing; even though the book itself is quite positive you just have to open the telly and look at what our great leaders are saying to realize that very little or none of the proposals in the books will be taken seriously until it's too late.

I was lucky enough to stumbel across Lester Brown's site about the time PB 3.0 was releasing and you could - then - download a pdf copy. Does not seem to be the case now.

I thought a review/post was going to be done on this book here at TOD.

If a TOD contributor/editor needs the pdf for this purpose ONLY then please email me at ptoemmes at bellsouth dot net

Pete

Edit: Looks like you can still download it. About 3MB

http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/PB3/Contents.htm

Teoc - Thank-you for the referral for Seven Tomorrows. That is now on my reading list.

I have tried to consider life as I have observed it in America from a personal perspective. Growing up in the 60's and 70's in a nation dominated by "car culture". I remember being a child seeing orchards and large open areas around LA that are now paved over as far as the eye can see. Until you witness the I-10 and I-405 Interchange at 4 p.m. on a Friday (24 lanes of traffic that have stopped moving) you can't fathom despair!

I think the notion of the U.S.A. getting a Marshall Plan together to herald our national might to the challenge is niave. When the Marshall Plan was put in place there were a fraction of the world's population and we were climbing up the Big Rock Candy Mountain (Peak Oil). The "Psycology of Previous Investment" will prevent us from acting either in a timely or effective fashion. As a society we are now so fragmented that consensus on anything is impossible. By the time the population at large "get it" I think it will be far too late and Kunstlers' notion of "The Long Emergency" will be playing out in a thousand different ways simultaneously.

I have experienced the 405—405 from 101 interchange and Sepulveda Pass south bound to LAX/Playa del Rey, three hours to go roughly 18 miles is common anytime after 3 p.m. and surface streets after you get through the pass into Santa Monica offers a 90 minute to 2 hour alternative.

Not a surprise. What is a surprise is that so many endure it day in and day out and think it—normal, tolerable, an endurable nuisance, just another day in the big city, fun, an adventure, good excuse for being late for a meeting—and not straight up insanity.

Insanity, now there is a word that, along with normalcy, has lost all meaning.

What we see unfolding was foretold—not in a oracle of delphi way, but in a Stanford Research Institute way—forty years ago in Seven Tomorrows. (come to think of it what was the Stanford Research Institute might very well have been a doppelganger for the oracle of delphi).

Half a century later and we are still in the same place confronting the same issues only now they are exponentially more urgent.

After all that we have seen and experienced denial trumps reality and we fill it up one more time cause you know it can't stay at $0.75; $1.22; $2.35; $3.43; $4.17; $5.85; $6.66 (a nod to Lucifer who makes an appearance further on in this thread) and I need the room for the kids, the dogs, the dirt bikes, the snowmobiles, the personal watercrafts, and the cases of food and paper products from Costco/Sam's Club.

And who are we to say the residents of the rest of the planet can't enjoy what we consider our birthright?

Besides science, technology and the free market will find a way through. I mean they have done such a bang up job to this point.

Orion Magazine reviewed "World Made by Hand" an issue or two back...

For post-meltdown scenarios a classic is "Lucifer's Hammer;" the Hammer being a bolide strike. Despite its Heinlein-esque Libby & technocopian nonsense, it's pretty exciting. The trebuchets firing mason jars filled with chemical munitions at the attacking Cannibal Army is exciting/hilarious, for instance.

Given that the Club of Rome gets some mention in "Lucifer's Hammer" (the technofairy is the key refutation to the COR thesis), I'm sometimes inclined to think of the story as a metaphor for the deleterious effects of fossil fuel scarcity. Just for the sake of literary exercise. :o)

After all, in "Lucifer's Hammer," people were aware of the approaching comet. There was plenty of disbelief in the possibility of a collision even up to the last moments before impact. And the available technology (even with people in orbit watching events unfold) was insufficient to prevent the outcome. Indeed, with a nuclear gift-exchange between China and the Soviet Union post-impact, certain kinds of technology made the situation worse. These details kind of mirror certain fears with regards to Peak Oil.

And thanks to Robert for the insightful review. I will pick up a copy of "World Made by Hand" and give the book a read.

-best,

Wolf in YVR BC

Lucifer's Hammer has provided a background of thinking for all these years. Of course events can never occur as foretold, but we can have a degree of certainty in the trends and behaviors. I recommended the book to the Vancouver Peak Oil Executive (VPOE) as a "backgrounder".

The most important lesson I got from the book, and one probably every TODer here knows, is don't count on your day job for survival and our technological society can be fleeting. Should things go bad rapidly (like RR, I don't think it will but its worth the mental exercise) we might find a way to maintain some form of our civilization. We will have a body of knowledge we can redeploy rapidly. Better or worse, who knows?

Why people feel obliged to slam a person because they had a disagreement is unprofessional and just plain rude. Denigrating because of one's education is also petty - after all, Toffler is just a journalist but he seemed to get a lot right. Besides, I like JHK. To steal a line from one of my favorite movies Tombstone, "I like Doc (JHK), he makes me laugh."

Hello

I have had some "World Made by Hand" moments in my life recently.

1. My sink was blocked up and I delayed calling a plummer (example of dependency on modern conveniences and professional services?).
2. I stopped shaving to keep it from getting worse (still drained a bit).
3. I started working on the farm more frequently (spring time) and thought hair would be a good protection of my skin (last year my face took a beating from exposure).
4. So I kept letting the hair grow and developed a beard for the first time in my life.
5. My wife stopped kissing me as much as I'd like because of the prickles so I shaved the parts around my mouth (my wife likes it now).
6. I now have an Abe Lincoln/Amish look about me and go by the moniker "Brother Jobe" which is ironic since in World Made by Hand Brother Jobe is a preacher character who brings shaving back to Union Grove where all the men have beards.

My copy is held up at Amazon waiting for another book I ordered. I'm looking forward to it.

I would just point out that if major cities were destroyed by war, it wouldn't be such a stretch to think that oil would not be as widely available as it is today. Wars require a great deal of fossil fuel and fuel supply lines are always among the first targets. JHK is simply putting together the ideas that we are already fighting wars over oil, if oil becomes less available we are likely to fight even more over it, and after such a war access won't be as great for the winners as it was when things were peaceful and plentiful. Presumably the US didn't win the war in the novel, so oil is even less available for the losing countries like the US.

John Michael Greer discusses linear thinking in his essay today. The idea that we'll progress smoothly from peak production to 10-15 years after peak is a form of linear thinking. It's much more likely that things will be fairly chaotic, and war is certainly a possibility. Given that we're already securing democracy in Iraq, it's a little hard to imagine there won't be more military adventures.

I tend to agree with JMG's catabolic collapse concept too. It matches what I see of reality, where I often notice that events seem to move both very rapidly and excruciatingly slow. So it makes sense that there will be step changes and times of relative calm. Some of those steps might be pretty big though.

My biggest reservation with the idea of catabolic collapse is that the use of fossil fuels has allowed us build up a much bigger population very rapidly, and that may mean the downside will also be more extreme. Especially when combined with the confluence of issues at hand.

Oh, and I would have died at 2wks of age, my teeth would be crooked (that is if I lived, which I wouldn't have), and my eyesight might have been a problem. I often wonder about eyesight - would it have been better without all the close up work? Is people's vision worse now than it was a couple of hundred years ago, or did they just deal with it? If I were an optometrist, I would learn how to grind lenses.

Conventional wars may require lots of oil, but nuclear war just requires someone to push the big red button. Perhaps in the oil wars of the future, if there is a serious shortage of oil for the military it would be tempting to use nukes to soften the opposition thus saving a lot of the oil used for conventional warfare.

I agree that your's is a fair review of the book. I was originally disappointed in the loosely-developed plot of the novel, but upon consideration realized that Kunstler's real effort was to use episodes to illustrate some of the possibilities that may arise in a post-oil, post-war future. I was left wanting more information about Brother Jobe and the queen bee woman, I was not sold on the state in which Albany was portrayed, and found it hard to agree with the regression of women's roles. But overall the book was entertaining and, certainly, thought-provoking.

Do you have any thoughts on the four main factions-- town/community, "practical" religious sect, trailer park-dwelling wolfpack, and plantation barony?

Do you have any thoughts on the four main factions-- town/community, "practical" religious sect, trailer park-dwelling wolfpack, and plantation barony?

I think if you accept the premise, then all of those factions are probable. People turn to religion in times of uncertainty. There are lots of warlords out there even today, and I think we would see this sort of thing spring up without modern law enforcement. Towns and communities would definitely have to pull together as depicted in the book.

And the plantation barony? Lord, I am counting on that. Otherwise, how will I take care of my plantation. :-)

TONIGHT on the Colbert Report: James Kunstler, author of World Made By Hand

Comedy Channel, 11:30 pm eastern, 10:30 pm central

I will definitely check that out. Hopefully he is familiar with Colbert. I have seen more than one guest caught off guard by Colbert's style.

James Kunstler seemed a little caught off guard by the Cobert's snark about his Y2K predictions.

Maybe Kunstler missed an opportunity to reel in his Y2K statements.

But mostly he did well, said things that needed to said, and was funny too.

Comedy Channel? so PO is just a joke after all then so i can relax and go buy a gas guzzler.

Yeah, it is the Comedy channel, but it isn't that kind of show. Colbert and Stewart are really doing political satire. Colbert's persona is a parody of a conservative blowhard, but for things like the Kunstler interview he dials it back a bit. Both shows get a lot of book authors, political figures, and media (particularly political media) types coming through as guests.

I think it's important for readers unfamiliar with Kunstler's approach to realize that 1) Kunstler knows very little about alternatives to oil in particular or fossil fuels in general, and just assumes that they are inadequate (which they aren't), 2) Kunstler is an urban planner who decided that suburbs were terrible long before he know about peak oil, and the demise of suburbs due to peak oil is wishful thinking on his part, and 3) Kunstler always assumes the worst, as demonstrated by his unequivocal, unqualified predictions of disaster from Y2K.

Sure, it's conceivable that resource wars will devastate civilization. OTOH, it's worth noting that the US government had to lie shamelessly, to hide this aspect of the war, to get the permission of the US people to go to war. It's quite clear that resource wars would be stupid and destructive to all concerned. The Iraq war does demonstrate that it's possible, OTOH it's lessons have made additional such wars much less likely.

Sure, we're going to have a painful transition to alternatives to oil in particular or fossil fuels in general. The political resistance to change from people who would be hurt (and they are real people, and their pain does deserve compassion) is our main problem. If we had started 30 years ago we'd be in great shape. Now, we're going to have some real pain - we're likely to have substantial recession or stagnation, and the US is likely to go deeply in debt to exporting nations.

But, should we ever decide to get moving the technical solutions are straightforward. For instance, carpooling could reduce overall US oil consumption by 25+% in 6 months (almost 50% of US oil consumption is light vehicles, with an average occupancy of only 1.15 people per vehicle), with little disruption to the economy (people would get to work). Hybrids like the Prius reduce fuel consumption by 50% over the average US vehicle, and plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt reduce consumption by 80-99%. Cars less than 6 years old account for 50% of miles driven, so a transition would take less than Hirsch assumed. The current grid (with no expansion) could power enough EV's and plug-ins to replace 85% of light vehicle miles driven. Renewable electricity (not bio-fuels) have high E-ROI (as we saw in a recent post), are scalable, and are technically feasible and practical.

But, should we ever decide to get moving the technical solutions are straightforward.

Can you explain how this "solves" the problem of peak oil? In other words, are you suggesting that these measures would somehow mean that the rate of oil production would not ever peak? Or is that you think we can reduce our consumption fast enough that it won't matter?

Note: you added to your comment before my response.

"are you suggesting that these measures would somehow mean that the rate of oil production would not ever peak"

No. I think oil needs replacement, primarily through electrification of transportation - hybrids, plug-in hybrids, EV's, and mass transit.

"is that you think we can reduce our consumption fast enough that it won't matter?"

Technically, we could with relatively little disruption. Unfortunately, we're not moving quickly enough to prevent substantial pain in the transition, especially to developing countries.

After WWII started, Roosevelt called in the major car makers and told them roughly the following: "Yesterday you made cars. Today you make tanks.". We need something similar to deal with climate change, which is a worse problem than peak oil, but needs roughly the same solutions (with the exception of expanded coal useage, of course).

Yes, Twilight asks a valid question.

Precisely what are the "solutions" to declining oil in the timeframe we have available to us?

For instance, according to Hirsch the time required to turn over the fleet of passenger cars is 17 years during a robust economy. For heavy trucks and busses it's 28 years.

What would be useful is if you laid out what you propose along a timeline rather than just saying what could be done. In my experience speaking in public with people about peak oil, they have a vanishingly tenuous grasp of time when they come up with their proposals. It's always "just do this, this and this" with no appreciation for how long things take.

The other thing they almost always miss is the condition of the economy. Many people seem to expect the turnover time (if they think of it at all) as staying the same rather than increasing. I don't recall who mentioned it here, but a writer pointed out that during the Great Depression the mines were all intact, so were the factories and buildings and shops. But they were all idle because this nebulous thing called "the economy" had disappeared around them. Is there any reason to think we won't experience something similar, if not exactly that?

In my view, we are largely going to enter Energy Descent with the infrastructure we have now.

But I'm open to seeing you lay out a plan, with dates and milestones, that is grounded in reality and shows me what I could be missing. It wouldn't hurt to attach expected cost figures to each section of the plan, too, just as if you were running a project in a business.

Adding dates and costs makes for something that can be discussed. Otherwise, I think I am justified in thinking your ideas as fantasy.

Best,
Andre'

"Precisely what are the "solutions" to declining oil in the timeframe we have available to us?"

Well, I outlined some. If we're going to have that discussion (and it's a very, very long discussion) it would be helpful if you responded to the specifics I outlined. Now you did respond a little to what I said about cars, but I think you didn't really process it, because I already responded to Hirsch's estimates. Here's what I said: "Cars less than 6 years old account for 50% of miles driven, so a transition would take less than Hirsch assumed."

OTOH, that's not really necessary to my point, which is that Kunstler doesn't know about alternatives, and doesn't explore them in any way. He just assumes they're inadequate. Have you read what he says about alternatives in his books? I have, and it's clear he knows very, very little about them.

"What would be useful is if you laid out what you propose along a timeline rather than just saying what could be done." I did so, in a very, very preliminary and summarized way. What did you think of my specifics? The business proposal you request is a lot of work, and puts all of the burden of proof on me - are you ready to contribute to the effort of analyzing these questions? It seems to me that you should respond in at least as much detail as I did, and then we can go back and forth like that, if you want.

"The other thing they almost always miss is the condition of the economy. "

That's a problem, and it could be a long and useful discussion, but it's several steps later than the technical feasibility of alternatives, which is where Kunstler fails.

Nick: This talk about a successful transition toward renewable energy has been going on for approximately 30 years. You take great pains not to mention what % of North American energy is currently coming from fossil fuels (it is very similar to the % in 1978). There is no sense of urgency IMO because the persons that have the most influence do not feel there is a looming problem. Again IMO I think most Americans (like yourself) have no conception of how far down the hole the USA would have to slide until the persons with the most influence perceive a "problem". They are doing quite well thanks to Globalization and as long as they are doing well IMO very little will be done to secure the USA's energy future.

"I think most Americans (like yourself) have no conception of how far down the hole the USA would have to slide until the persons with the most influence perceive a "problem". "

Sadly, I'm very aware of how complacent many people are about PO. Carter dealt with energy pretty well, but resistance from oil, gas & car industries has been pretty relentless ever since. Fortunately, we seem to be somewhat better able to take action to deal with AGW - this seems fairly hopeful to me.

OTOH, I think you're underestimating people a bit. PO isn't an easy thing to analyze or predict, and it's been fairly clear for only a couple of years.

Nick, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. I don't discredit your point of view as I have the same thoughts on optimistic days. I also don't think matters will go to hell in a hand basket unless the government does something really stupid to exacerbate the problem (i.e. Iran).

I believe your point is simple, (and I don't know why the others don't get it), is we can't do much about PO but we can certainly change our consumption patterns. The only Achilles heel in the plan is the idealism. Or, to put it another way, it just makes too much sense.

What will motivate the American public at large? I have one idea and I don't mind riling this beast. Make is unequivocally clear that the U.S. is beholden to Canada and them lousy Canucks are calling the tune. You would bring about the ire, pride and cooperative effort Americans have been known for at a grassroots level. Then we might see some WWII level of mobilization and industry.

Lets call it a kick in the pants.

Nick, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. I don't discredit your point of view as I have the same thoughts on optimistic days. I also don't think matters will go to hell in a hand basket unless the government does something really stupid to exacerbate the problem (i.e. Iran).

I believe your point is simple, (and I don't know why the others don't get it), is we can't do much about PO but we can certainly change our consumption patterns. The only Achilles heel in the plan is the idealism. Or, to put it another way, it just makes too much sense.

What will motivate the American public at large? I have one idea and I don't mind riling this beast. Make is unequivocally clear that the U.S. is beholden to Canada and them lousy Canucks are calling the tune. You would bring about the ire, pride and cooperative effort Americans have been known for at a grassroots level. Then we might see some WWII level of mobilization and industry.

Nick, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. I don't discredit your point of view as I have the same thoughts on optimistic days. I also don't think matters will go to hell in a hand basket unless the government does something really stupid to exacerbate the problem (i.e. Iran).

I believe your point is simple, (and I don't know why the others don't get it), is we can't do much about PO but we can certainly change our consumption patterns. The only Achilles heel in the plan is the idealism. Or, to put it another way, it just makes too much sense.

What will motivate the American public at large? I have one idea and I don't mind riling this beast. Make is unequivocally clear that the U.S. is beholden to Canada and them lousy Canucks are calling the tune. You would bring about the ire, pride and cooperative effort Americans have been known for at a grassroots level. Then we might see some WWII level of mobilization and industry.

You're gonna have to get a new keyboard if you keep bashing the ENTER key like that. Take a breath; everythings under control, just a bit slow.

PO isn't an easy thing to analyze or predict, and it's been fairly clear for only a couple of years.

Clear to you maybe for a couple of years (and i also) but There have been at nearly 40 years since Hubberts prediction of the L48 was confirmed as correct and many other exmaples since so I don' think PO is difficult to analyze at all. matthew Simmons doesn't either. He reckons that if we could get accurate reserve data, then it would take about a week to analyze it and predict with a fair degree of accuracy, (+/- 10 years would be near enough for me) the date of world peak oil.

Anthropological Global Waming on the ohter hand is extremely difficult to measure track and predict so I think you have your arguments ass up my friend.

Hi, Nick.

As for Kunstler's knowledge of alternatives, I'm happy for the moment to say that he doesn't know them well. No need to spend time on that.

I'm much more interested in peer-reviewed papers that have a commitment to look at the whole picture, or at least as best as possible given the biases and foibles of human beings.

In my public presentations, I use peer-reviewed data almost exclusively. When I don't, I clearly label it and say so. I also use my own calculations from time to time when I am reasonably confident of the both the resulting numbers and the context in which I generate them.

So I'm afraid I'm not really interested in going back and forth discussing bits and pieces of your logic. I have a business to run and a county and moderately-sized city to get ready (San Francisco). (It also reminds me of the endless debates with climate change skeptics and I have no interest in using my time in that way.)

However, when you or someone else has put together a cogent, comprehensive plan that accounts for the factors that Hirsch does, I am absolutely willing and eager to examine it. It's not that much work, I think you could certainly do it inside of 200 man-hours. But it's a worthwhile endeavor, no?

So yes, I would say the burden of proof is certainly on you. Although I might quibble with Hirsch on the likelihood of CTL solutions being implemented, etc., I think his corpus of reports present a thorough and compelling case:

  • Peaking Of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation, & Risk Management, Feb 2005
  • Economic Impacts Of Liquid Fuel Mitigation Options, Feb 2006
  • Mitigation of maximum world oil production: Shortage scenarios, Energy Policy Volume 36, 2008

These first two are available easily with just a quick google or two or at the main PO/energy websites. The last report might require a $30 investment to obtain.

Best,
Andre'

"As for Kunstler's knowledge of alternatives, I'm happy for the moment to say that he doesn't know them well. No need to spend time on that."

Thanks. That was my main point. That was the subject of the Original Post, after all.

"So I'm afraid I'm not really interested in going back and forth discussing bits and pieces of your logic. I have a business to run and a county and moderately-sized city to get ready (San Francisco)."

Well, I have other work to do as well. You seem to be saying that you can criticise, but don't have to contribute. I'm puzzled.

"It also reminds me of the endless debates with climate change skeptics and I have no interest in using my time in that way."

When you can point me to anything like the IPCC that says that Kunstler's point of view is correct, or to a consensus of professionals (like that of climatologists relative to climate change), I'll understand. The fact is that there is nothing at all that supports Kunstler's predictions of certain disaster.

"However, when you or someone else has put together a cogent, comprehensive plan that accounts for the factors that Hirsch does, I am absolutely willing and eager to examine it. It's not that much work, I think you could certainly do it inside of 200 man-hours. But it's a worthwhile endeavor, no? - So yes, I would say the burden of proof is certainly on you."

Regarding what? First, Hirsch agrees that technical solutions exist to PO - his analysis is primarily about timing (that's an interesting and lengthy discussion, for which neither of us has the time at present), and the fact that we would be much better off if we had started earlier (with which I agree). Do you agree with Hirsch that technical solutions exist to PO?

2nd, his analysis was way too narrow - it didn't even include hybrids/PHEVs/EVs/rail. Would you agree that this a significant omission?

It doesn't appear that you have read Hirsch's last report recently published in Energy Policy.

Best,
Andre'

Yes, I didn't have that 3rd report in mind.

Update: Well, now I've re-looked at the 1st two reports, and summaries for the 3rd.

The first two are clearly designed for a BAU world: for instance, he assumes a minor reduction in fuel consumption per mile for light vehicles of 33% (and a resulting reduction of US oil consumption, assuming constant VMT, of about 15%), over 20 years. This is out of date in the world he's describing in the 3rd report. Electrification of light vehicles could reduce fuel consumption by 70% by then(and give a resulting reduction of US oil consumption, assuming constant VMT, of about 35%). It also doesn't deal with similar electrification of oil applications elsewhere in the economy, which would certainly happen in a very high-oil-cost world. It also has significant mistakes about light vehicle and truck turnover.

You would agree that the lack of inclusion of electrification is a major flaw, right?

Now the most recent study that he assumes that GDP would contract in precise proportion to oil supplies. Now I remember, we've discussed this before.

Now, let me ask a question. Why assume Hirsch is right, when Ayres clearly breaks the link of direct correlation/causation between oil and GDP, as well as the link BTU's and GDP? Ayres tells us that energy is important, not oil, and that exergy (applied energy) is the important thing, not BTU's. IOW, oil per GDP and energy intensity (energy BTU's per GDP) can change over time.

Doesn't that argue against Hirsch's 1:1 correlation between oil and GDP?

Not true about the turn over in Trucks. Don't know where you got the info, but I have worked in the industry for over 20 years and you would be hard pressed to find many over 8 years running the highway. They are turned over, and sold out of the country, after the depreciation schedule allowed by our wonderful and all knowing IRS say's it's OK. About 5 years, sometimes less.

A great many are off to Mexico and South America.
BZ

"The Iraq war does demonstrate that it's possible, OTOH it's lessons have made additional such wars much less likely."

Doesn't that depend on whether McCain gets elected?

""The Iraq war does demonstrate that it's possible, OTOH it's lessons have made additional such wars much less likely." Doesn't that depend on whether McCain gets elected?"

Sure. OTOH, I think that's unlikely, in large part due to the national rejection of the Iraq war, and I think McCain would have a great deal of difficulty starting anything else that was similar. Look at how the Iran adventure got shut down.

Your comments about Y2K are a bit short-sighted. My late father was a computer programmer and analysist, doing unix systems. He spent four years of his life correcting and/or re-writing computer systems of various companies to head off the Y2K problem at the pass - as did thousands of other programmers. I wrote a blog about it re 9-11 a couple of years ago, and here's the Y2K relevant part:

...Now, let me tell you a parable of Y2K. Remember Y2K? A few years before the turn of the century, unix and dos programmers noticed that there was no way to enter the year 2000 into programs that had only a two digit way of calculating the year. When you put in zero-zero for the year, and tried to do basic calculations such as "how much interest has your account earned since last month," and "what amount of electricity needs to be generated today based on the average use for last month," and so on and so on, that the computers malfunctioned. After all, you can't take away 99 from 00. That's an illegal mathematical operation. The programmers were concerned. Just how many banks, utilities, stock brokerages, communications, and business computers out there only used two digits in their year calculations?

Well, class, the answer was, almost all of them.

Oops. So the programmers worked furiously for almost four years to update, rewrite, recompile, and re-test nearly every computer program running every major computer in the entire United States. The deadline was looming. But guess what?

They did it! Every major system was updated on time. And as a result, there was no major malfunctions in the computer backbone of our country's life. And you know what happened then?

People said there was never a problem in the first place. It was just hype.

"WHAT?" The programmers said. "We worked our butts off for years to make sure the problem was fixed and no major disruptions occurred - how can you say the problem never existed?"

For the record, there was one program of mine that I didn't replace. It was my favorite fax-modem program. In it was saved all my important faxes. And sure enough, when I tried to use it after January 1st, 2000, it kept saying I was sending a fax from the year 1739. Why that year, I'll never know. But since faxes need an accurate date/time stamp, I had to reluctantly part with my favorite program. That was my experience with Y2K, because hundreds of programmers had worked themselves countless hours to make sure nothing worse than that happened...

Y2K was a real problem that was solved by several years of hard work by people who knew what the solution was and could implement it - all that was necessary was time and dedication. Peak Oil is different - no amount of tinkering with oil fields is going to make them refill themselves. Technology and energy are not the same thing - and there is no other substance out there that has sufficient BTUs to move your 5000 car and yourself with as much efficiency as petroleum products. Even electric cars are not really an option because the electric grid is already maxed out - the head of economic development of our state happens to be a friend of myself and my husband, and he says that industries have turned away from our state or been unable to expand simply because there was insufficient electricity capacity available for them to do so. That's real and it's right now - much less adding millions of cars to the grid. It just can't be done in any reasonable amount of time or for the funding currently available to do it - and funding will tank along with tax revenues. By the time it could be done, it will be far past "too late." There is no urban-county government out there willing to completely abandon road construction in favor of electric trolleys and streetcars and electric busses - which is what they will have to do RIGHT NOW to have everything in place in the years ahead when they will be unavoidably necessary. They won't do anything until it is too late - we all know it. Pretending otherwise is wishful thinking.

And even after that, government has to have gasoline and diesel - HAS to have it: ambulances, firetrucks, police, military, border patrol, emergency food distribution... They will confiscate available resources or outlaw personal automobiles to cause demand destruction long before anybody actually "runs out" of gas or diesel, and long before it becomes completely unaffordable for govt to pay for out of available funds. You have no right to drive - and government will see you don't have opportunity, either. A "permit" for a personal automobile will only be available to the excruciatingly wealthy and politically connected. I'm guessing that excludes you (it certainly excludes me).

He spent four years of his life correcting and/or re-writing computer systems of various companies to head off the Y2K problem at the pass - as did thousands of other programmers.

Yes, I was one of them on an IBM AS/400. Alot of effort by a LOT of programmers.

It could have turned out differently.

Hear! Hear!

I've been programming since 1965, and had a hand in designing those systems with two-digit years. We really did escape by the skin of our teeth.

As late as the 1980's, I had to fight with my colleagues to expand the date fields from six to eight digits (YYYYMMDD).

See this for anecdotal description:

http://www.kyber.biz/rants/year2000.htm

"As late as the 1980's, I had to fight with my colleagues to expand the date fields from six to eight digits (YYYYMMDD)."

Heck, I knew a guy in the 70's who had a decade problem - just 1 digit for year!!! He had to fight hard to be allowed to expand to 2 digits....

Back when saving one byte per just a few thousand records MATTERED :-)

COBOL and just two digits PIC 99

We might have even packed them!

Pete

"People said there was never a problem in the first place. It was just hype."

That's not what I said. I said: "Kunstler always assumes the worst, as demonstrated by his unequivocal, unqualified predictions of disaster from Y2K."

I didn't say there was no problem: I said that Kunstler was flat wrong when he assumed that a Y2K disaster was inevitable. Kunstler never qualified his prediction of disaster by saying that an enormous programming effort could prevent the problem.

"Technology and energy are not the same thing - and there is no other substance out there that has sufficient BTUs to move your 5000 car and yourself with as much efficiency as petroleum products."

Not true. Electric motors work just fine, which is why it's the engine of choice for trains.

"Even electric cars are not really an option because the electric grid is already maxed out"

Not at night. The grid only operates at about 25% capacity at night.

"the head of economic development of our state happens to be a friend of myself and my husband, and he says that industries have turned away from our state or been unable to expand simply because there was insufficient electricity capacity available for them to do so."

These industries operate during the daytime, when there are capacity problems. EV's would charge at night. Furthermore, that's not a technical problem, that's a choice: your state (it sounds like California) has chosen not to expand generation.

"government has to have gasoline and diesel - HAS to have it: ambulances, firetrucks, police, military, border patrol, emergency food distribution"

These things can be electrified just fine, with the exception of military planes (aircraft carriers already are propelled by electric motors), which will run just fine on CTL (which the Air Force is moving to asap, for better or worse (for AGW)).

I've never even been to California - I'm talking about the EAST coast.

You say "those things can be electrified just fine..." but fail to comprehend that the billions of dollars needed to do so just aren't there and aren't going to be. Nobody can afford to do this - they already have budget shortfalls due to tanking property values and declining business receipts. Where are you imagining this giant windfall is going to come from? Fall from the sky? Magically appear?

"I've never even been to California - I'm talking about the EAST coast. "

Ah. Perhaps New England? Yes, they hate new generation plants in their backyard.

"billions of dollars needed to do so just aren't there and aren't going to be"

Sure, we have economic problems. Light vehicle sales have dropped from 17M at peak to about 15.5M, and they probably will drop more. The drop has come almost entirely from light trucks - that actually seems encouraging to me.

Sure, if the economy collapses an energy transition will pretty difficult - who can argue with that? It doesn't really help us predict whether the economy will collapse. There's nothing about PO that says that it will, though it certainly suggests a fair amount of economic pain in the transition.

"There's nothing about PO that says that it will, though it certainly suggests a fair amount of economic pain in the transition."

"Everything about PO" says that the economy you're imagining will solve these problems can no longer function - there's no way to realistically "transition" from not having any food for humans grown in an area to suddenly having a self-sustainable agricultural base - especially when sustainable/organic farming micro-environments take years to establish and food is starting to be rationed even as we speak. People who are living paycheck to paycheck can't buy an electric car, can't move to a new location (can't sell the house they've got and can't qualify for a mortgage on a new one, either), can't just go "get a new job," and can't walk to a grocery store that is miles away from where they live and then walk back home with their groceries (and not expect what they bought to be stolen along the way, either) - presuming they can afford food anyway after the transportation costs are added in. People are starting to be unable to afford gasoline/diesel NOW. RIGHT NOW. Not ten years from now, not in some far-away place where the city leaders rightly intuited 20 years ago that they'd need all-electric mass transit to every single neighborhood and subdivision and then dedicated all their resources toward that goal. There is no such place.

I'm glad you're so wealthy that this isn't a problem for you yet, but for hundreds of thousands of people in this country peak oil is ALREADY a problem.

And saying "nightime" has "excess capacity" presumes that average people can afford to pay for all new cars and equipment and the electricity itself when the the FUEL to run a plant 24/7 at full capacity is part of the escalating cost problem. Again, you are pricing a substantial percentage of Americans out of the market - that's your brilliant solution? Let them eat cake, eh?

And the fact that municipalities can't afford all new electronic vehicles and equipment has nothing whatsoever to do with an "economic collapse," it's a fact on the ground RIGHT NOW that your responses have continually ignored.

Gad, this is turning into a long discussion. I'll have to return later.

I'll try to answer a few easy points.

"there's no way to realistically "transition" from not having any food for humans grown in an area to suddenly having a self-sustainable agricultural base"

There's nothing about PO that requires food re-localization. Food can be transported by electric rail, short-range electric trucks, and low-fuel-consumption water shipping quite easily.

Yes, I agree that economic disruption will makes things harder. OTOH, carpooling works very well, and is very cheap.

"the FUEL to run a plant 24/7 at full capacity is part of the escalating cost problem."

Not really. In fact, higher capacity utilization would reduce the cost of coal electricity. Of course, I'm not excited about coal - wind would be better, and cheaper in the long run.

"There's nothing about PO that requires food re-localization."

Except for the fact that America imports just about all the fruits and vegetables we use for most of the year. We are not food self-sufficient at all, and most of the food we import is sent by container cargo ships which are never going to run on electricity. What we export is grain staples and some meats - what we import is pretty much everything else. Overall, our imports of fruits and vegetables and canned/boxed goods almost now equals our exports in grains and staples.

In order to have a healthy, sustainable, diet we are absolutely going to have to relocalize, not just with seasonal gardens but greenhouses and intensive agriculture for year-round production of produce. The fact that we are a "net food exporter" doesn't change the fact that what we grow are acres and acres of monoculture grain staples and very little of anything else. People don't live by wheat, soy and corn alone, to paraphrase a famous quote.

An article at http://www.ca.uky.edu/AGC/NEWS/2005/Feb/imports.htm:

...Food imports have been steadily rising for four years. There were a few months in 2004 when the United States imported more food than it exported.

“Of course this does not make the United States a net food importer – yet,” Infanger said. “But the trend on agricultural trade is clear if you look at the yearly summary data. The agricultural trade surplus – the difference between exports and imports – has deteriorated since 1996 when it was $20 billion. But with rising imports and roller coaster exports, the trade surplus next year is projected at only $2.5 billion.”

“With the changing tastes of the American consumer and an improving economy, you can understand why imported foods are the fastest growing section of the typical supermarket,” he said. “Our food stores are now stocked with fruits and vegetables year-round with the origin and source changing with the seasons. That’s why horticultural products are the largest component of agricultural imports.”

The steady increase in agricultural imports is a trend that Infanger said will not go away. Consumers expect a wide variety of foods from around the globe. He said exports will vary with production levels, global competition and the value of the dollar.

“It seems clear to me that unless the value of U.S. agricultural exports were to somehow set new records every year, the United States is likely to become a new food importer in 2008,” Infanger said.”

"most of the food we import is sent by container cargo ships which are never going to run on electricity"

First, they use very little fuel per pound of cargo - less than a small scale farmer taking his produce to a moderately distant farmer's market. 2nd, they certainly can run on electric motors - aircraft carriers do. 3rd, they could reduce their fuel consumption by 50% just by reducing speed by 25%. 4th, they could reduce fuel consumption by another 30% with wind kites, which are in use now. 5th, these large container ships have so much surface area, and are so efficient, that they could be powered by PV. 5th, they could easily carry batteries, if need be (though that might limit their range a bit, returning us to the age of coal, in which ships made many stops on their voyages).

Why hasn't this been done before? Because bunker fuel has been so incredibly cheap, until very, very recently.

"“It seems clear to me that unless the value of U.S. agricultural exports were to somehow set new records every year"

Well, for better or worse, recent sharply rising food prices have probably accomplished that (that quote was from 2005).

Ah you forgot to mention the NUCLEAR power plant in the aircraft carrier. Do you really think that that the worlds powers are going to allow the nuclearisation of the (unprotected) merchant shipping fleet?

"Ah you forgot to mention the NUCLEAR power plant in the aircraft carrier. "

Not at all - I referred to aircraft carriers as a proof of the power and practicality of "electric motors", and an electric drive train - the rest of the paragraph deals with fuel.

AFAIK all current nuclear aircraft carriers, including the USN Enterprise and Nimitz class, use steam for propulsion.

There are some plans that the next generation US nuclear carriers will have electrical propulsion motors (meaning that they have steam turbines driving generators), but those are still on the drawing board.

Thanks.

I understand that they're now replacing the continuously operating backup diesel generator (which is very wasteful) with a battery combined with a diesel generator which will be normally turned off, awaiting need.

Incremental steps to electrification.

sustainable/organic farming micro-environments take years to establish and food is starting to be rationed even as we speak.

That's why I've already got mine going. When shall you start.

It is feasable to approach food and energy sustainability for an individual houshold where I live (Perth West Oz) given availability of Photo Voltaics. Thats on one quarter acre. We need to stop trying to hold The Great Big Beastie together and concentrate on own own little patch and our immediate neighbours. The rest will then take care of itself.

It's the Great Big Beastie that uses most of the fossil fuel, and we all know the fate of The Great Big Beastie do we not?

This is way off. How much does a Cadillac Escalade cost vs. a Toyota Yaris? There is plenty of solar thermal energy to electrify things, and it will be a lot cheaper than importing LNG.

There's plenty of money around, it's just not being spent well.

You appear to be yet another person who automatically believes "can" means "will". Humanity has a very spotty record in this regard, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing when facing crises of varying dimensions. To automatically assume that because we "can" do something means we "will" do it, seems to me to be a very risky assumption indeed, especially in light of history itself.

I agree with you, Alan, and others who point out that electrification can solve many (not all) of our current problems, at least at current population levels. But as Alan is discovering, what we can do is not always what we will do. I admire Alan's efforts greatly but I fear they may be misplaced. Likewise, while I do not disagree with you about the underlying technology, I suggest you study homo sapiens a bit more closely. We are not rational. Indeed we are rationalizing, and that is a key difference between the assumptions of many and the reality that often unfolds.

"You appear to be yet another person who automatically believes "can" means "will". "

My main point was that Kunstler says "can't".

I didn't say "will". I would say "likely".

Hi Nick,

I appreciate your posts here, and would like to add to the discussion.

I appreciate Grey's distinction, and your reply with a similar distinction.

What *can* happen in the positive sense is what many people would like to focus on, though it's difficult, in a way that other topics here at TOD somehow are not so difficult. And, likewise, it's often too easy to assume what "cannot" happen - (or what *can* happen in the negative sense).

One example is the issue nuclear war/nuclear holocaust.

We know what "can" happen. In some ways, it's the easiest to describe. As in "cities wiped out".

At the same time, we have examples of what "can" happen, and has happened, as a result of people who work very hard to prevent nuclear war.

Here are two examples. Right now, today, people in these two organizations work long hours, with some creative ideas - and, yes, funding (though not always) - to prevent nuclear war.

The first is a program from Union of Concerned Scientists that has done outreach to young scientists around the world. They get to know each other, to understand the dangers - to work towards prevention.

For the second example, I'll just refer to the website.

http://www.ucsusa.org/
"... the Global Security Program identifies and trains young scientists from the United States, China, and other countries to conduct policy-relevant technical analysis on arms control and security issues, and helps to create an international community of these researchers."

http://www.lasg.org/index.htm
"Since 1989, the Los Alamos Study Group community—our staff and board, volunteers, interns, and supporters—has consistently provided leadership on nuclear disarmament and related issues in New Mexico."

My point with this post is to encourage positive effort. And, in a sense, to "un-encourage" dismissal of possibilities - and to promote what we might call "deep listening".

Thank you.

I am constantly put off by all the self-proclaimed "experts" who say there never was a Y2K problem. They didn't sit in Conoco's control center on New Year's eve holding their breath with a full staff just hoping that they didn't miss even one critical program. Nor did they sit with any other major oil company, electric utility, or other major infrastructure provider whose services depended upon real-time computer systems. I too spent a number of years working on that specific problem and in coding new solutions that had to be screened to ensure they were not recreating that problem. A massive amount of work under short time frames went into solving that "tiny" issue and we still barely made it.

Now we blithely go along like peak oil is nothing and the "free market" (do not even get me started about what an oxymoron that name is!!) will somehow save us. The crash from peak oil against the wall will be terrible to behold. And those who think this will entail a "little" pain that we will somehow magically muddle through and allow us to produce an even bigger, denser civilization are part of the problem. They've been born into an overshoot event and cannot seem to even recognize it as such. Many people are unaware that evidence suggested homo sapiens (and our domesticated plants and animals) consumed as much as 41% of the net primary production of earth's biosphere back in the mid-1980s. Think on that - one species out of several million consuming nearly half the entire ecosphere and growing exponentially, both via population and by "rising" standards of living. And they think this is "normal"!

The mind boggles!

"I am constantly put off by all the self-proclaimed "experts" who say there never was a Y2K problem. "

ummm...you're clear that I didn't say that, right??

You stated:

Kunstler always assumes the worst, as demonstrated by his unequivocal, unqualified predictions of disaster from Y2K.

That was a very dismissive statement, and (to me) appeared deliberately chosen to dismiss the potential problems that could have cropped up from Y2K. Further, you simply ignore that a massive diversion of IT resources away from "business as usual" was required to overcome the very problem that you so blithely dismiss. The net effect, whether you intended it or not, was one of simply dismissing Y2K's potential problems. Words like unequivocal and unqualified assist in painting that image.

If that is not the image you intended to portray, you surely chose very bad language. However, based upon your other posts here in this forum, I would bet that you did this deliberately, precisely to frame the debate in the manner that you did. I can't prove that but your other posts wreak of "unqualified" and "unequivocal" optimism never once bounded by statistical data or other real facts.

"That was a very dismissive statement"

Yes, but carefully written.

"(to me) appeared deliberately chosen to dismiss the potential problems that could have cropped up from Y2K"

Not at all. I didn't address that at all - I was talking about the accuracy of Kunstler's predictions.

"The net effect, whether you intended it or not, was one of simply dismissing Y2K's potential problems. Words like unequivocal and unqualified assist in painting that image."

You misunderstand me. My point was that Kunstler didn't qualify his predictions of doom in any way. Kunstler was unequivocal in his predictions of doom, and he didn't qualify them in any way. There is an enormous difference between saying "we're faced with disaster unless we act fast" and saying "disaster is inevitable". Kunstler said the latter.

"If that is not the image you intended to portray, you surely chose very bad language. "

No, you simply misunderstood me. I was talking about Kunstler's predictions, not Y2K.

" I would bet that you did this deliberately, precisely to frame the debate in the manner that you did."

I did it to frame Kunstler's predictions. I wanted people to realize that they shouldn't take this book seriously.

"your other posts wreak of "unqualified" and "unequivocal" optimism never once bounded by statistical data or other real facts."

No, as I demonstrated to you a few months ago when I showed, with detailed calculations, that the analysis of PHEV viability on your website was incorrect.

That's my point about Kunstler - his apocalypticism is untainted by the facts.

I will agree that you and I disagree about the likely outcomes of our energy problems, but I'd be delighted to deal with any specific, quantitative analysis of energy that you'd like to offer.

"his apocalypticism is untainted by the facts"

That seems to describe a lot of people around here. Any attempt to point out that there are constructive things we can do is met by an insistence that nothing will be done.

I would describe my position as "my apocalypticism is tempered by recognition of the human tendancy to jump to conclusions".

Assuming everything will be OK is stupid. Assuming nothing can be done is equally stupid.

Reality is messy.

There are people with their head in the sand who will deny the problem for as long as possible. There are other people, right now, working on solar thermal storage, thin film photovoltaics, and electric cars.

Between "there is no crisis" and "there is no hope" lies the middle ground where we stumble through damaged, broken and bloody, but do actually make it to the other side.

To put it more explicitly, you can have millions or billions of people die, and have entire continents collapse into chaos, without the world or human society or technology coming to an end. For example, the Black Death, or WWII.

A person who points out that we have alternatives isn't necessarily saying that everything is going to be OK, or that BAU is possible. They may simply be saying that there are things we can do get us through the coming apocalypse.

Yes.

I said "you surely chose very bad language."

You said "No, you simply misunderstood me."

I think you make my point for me. Your writing was not clear, hence the misunderstanding. And further, I will continue to believe, based upon your other posts, that you did this deliberately.

I thought I was reasonably clear: I objected to Kunstler saying that we were doomed due to Y2K, without qualification. That meant that I would have liked him to qualify it like this: "We are doomed unless we do something about it). OTOH, I could have elaborated, and sure, next time I will. Heck, I started this with the same objection to RR's Original Post. I suppose we all have the same problem: trying to write quickly and concisely, while still being clear. Well, I guess I should just say that we should all work hard to be clear, hope for the best, and listen to clarification.

While I'm on that subject, let me clarify that I didn't ask RR for clarification mostly because he's said in the past that he doesn't have the time to respond to comments to his posts on TOD.

hmm. Perhaps it would help to put a reminder at the end of a comment like this that that I don't think we're getting through a post-FF transition without a lot of pain, and that there small but real risks of much greater problems, like real depression due to shocks, like war in the Persian gulf? It seems a bit cumbersome, but maybe it would help.

I think the problem is that we sometimes assume that one issue is a proxy for others. IOW, that if someone argues strongly against one point of a discussion (say, dismissing EV's) that one is arguing implictly for a larger point (say, that we're heading into an easy, BAU future).

I don't know. It's possible that we disagree on enough things that it's simply difficult for us to agree on a "frame".

What do you think?

And even after that, government has to have gasoline and diesel - HAS to have it: ambulances, firetrucks, police, military, border patrol, emergency food distribution... They will confiscate available resources or outlaw personal automobiles to cause demand destruction long before anybody actually "runs out" of gas or diesel, and long before it becomes completely unaffordable for govt to pay for out of available funds. You have no right to drive - and government will see you don't have opportunity, either. A "permit" for a personal automobile will only be available to the excruciatingly wealthy and politically connected. I'm guessing that excludes you (it certainly excludes me).

More likely, I think we will eventually get rationing. It will be introduced much to late, but it will eventually happen - mainly to assure supplies to the high priority users you mention above. At first everyone will get a ration. It won't be quite enough for most people, but they'll adjust and learn to manage. Eventually and gradually, the rations will have to be cut, and cut again and again. Those with preferential classifications will not get cut much (if any), but most of us will continue to get cut until eventually we get no rations at all. It won't so much be a matter of needing a "permit" for a personal auto as of needing to be one of the very few in a preferential classification that still gets any rations at all.

Nobody really knows the future, but I doubt that we'll see rations prior to 2013; McCain definitely won't do it, and I doubt that Obama or Clinton would either. Whatever government we have not long after 2012 will soon find that it has no option left but to introduce rationing. I am basing my personal planning on the assumption that common people like myself will no longer be able to buy any auto fuel at all after about 2018-2020 or so (and it will get frightfully expensive long before that). That might be optimistic, or it might be pessimistic - who knows?

I hadn't given much thought to a timetable - right now I'd say it's hard to predict exactly when the price will be to a point that the then-government says, "enough." I think your 2012 guestimate fits pretty well with what Matt Simmons is predicting, but the very poor are being priced out of the market right now. Formal rationing will come later -but when? This economic rationing will continue to creep up the income scale, one question is how fast will this occur? It just depends, like someone said, on whether or not the then or now government does something stupid, or fails to do something smart. Most municipal governments and school districts are already starting to be in trouble due to gas and diesel prices - but the feds may just let the sink or swim for while, how long is anybody's guess. I'm doubting the fed will act until it starts to be a problem for them. I don't think they really care that much about state and local government problems. Or to the extent they do care, it might be their great idea to send in the military to "oversee" or control state and local government operations and "make sure" they get preference on available supplies. Wouldn't that be fun?

I have been employed in the transportaion field mostly (engineering) for the past 30 years. I have also done consulting work for an energy company and have studied energy supply/use for about that same amount of time. Your idea that huge amounts of oil could be saved while keeping the general populus transported in automobiles couldn't be more wrong.

First, automobile and light trucks use most of the gasoline and a amall amount of diesel, thus consuming about 50% of the oil. If each trip were by car or truck pooling then 25% of the oil could be saved. This is logistically impossible. Even when the US had shortages of gas in 1974 and 1979, only a small percentage of people car pooled. Certainly carpooling could be promoted, but it would take years to have the effect of even a 10% drop in oil usage.

Second, to think much of the population has the ability to soon buy a $25,000 car (Prius) to double their fuel economy is also wishfull thinking, unless you are counting on government hand outs to subsidize the purchases. As the economy declines fewer people will have the money or credit to make such purchases. Furthermore, should the US personal vehicle fleet be converted to run largely on electrical energy from power plants, the US rail system and probably the coal mining industry do not have the capacity to supply the additional coal. With natural gas production declining in the US and world demand for nat. gas growing (remember the new cartel being formed for gas producers, initiated by Iran, Qatar & others?), how likely can we quickly ramp up electrical power capacity? Not much in the next five or ten years.

With the oil situation in the US dictated not by world production, but by world export market, the US will face huge shortfalls in supply and greatly increased price. In 17 years the world export market is likely to decline by half (see Westexas's Export Land Model). This means that certain segments of the transportation system will contract, like personal auto travel and air travel, while energy efficient modes such as electrified rail will hopefully expand with government assistance and tax incentives.

The US economy will be hard pressed to find the capital to make these changes as foreign interests hold huge amounts of personal, business and government debt. Will these foreign interests make further loans to the US to allow these changes to more energy efficient transport, manufacturing and housing? If those holding this debt think the US is a bad risk, then not enough capital may be available. Remember nearly 25% of US treasuries are held by foreign governments, institution and individuals. And foreign interests also are gaining control of US personal debt as they buy equities in US banks and make loans to US banks. In essence the US may not direct its destiny as will be required in the energy limited future. More of JHK's World may come true than most would believe.

Well, you raise two issues, logistical/organizational and economic. I would note first that these are not technical issues, and would be easily amenable to a serious social effort. An effort comparable to WWII would easily allow such things as carpooling. Are you familiar with the central planning that was done at that time? Carpooling pales in comparison.

"carpooling...is logistically impossible. Even when the US had shortages of gas in 1974 and 1979, only a small percentage of people car pooled."

I don't think you're really thinking this through. First, we have telecommunications available today that makes such things much more practical - think zipcar.com, or match.com. 2nd, I'm talking about what's possible if it was mandated by law: we could easily require that non-emergency highway travel must be done with two people, or that driving above 20 MPH must be done with passengers, or some such. Think WWII. Actually, we could do much better than 25%, and faster, if we really wanted to.

"Certainly carpooling could be promoted, but it would take years to have the effect of even a 10% drop in oil usage."

I'm not talking about some kind of ineffective "promotion" (so beloved by the current administration, which prefers to do nothing). Of course no one will do carpooling until they are forced to by law or economic necessity - it's inconvenient.

Most of the rest of your discussion is economic, which is interesting (and has elements of truth, which is why I acknowledge that the transition ahead is going to be fairly painful), but irrelevant to my point, which is that Kunstler assumes that alternatives are technically imposssible - that they just won't physically work.

"the US rail system and probably the coal mining industry do not have the capacity to supply the additional coal."

The rail system can be easily expanded over 10 year time frame, which is the timeframe required to have serious demand from EV/PHEVs (at least until we get more serious about it). The mining industry can do it easily, though I rather we didn't go that way - wind could provide all of the power needed (about 15% more KWHs than current consumption).

Kunstler assumes that alternatives are technically imposssible - that they just won't physically work.

I don't think Kunstler assumes that at all. I think the Long Emergency was a well researched book where Kunstler examined the limitations of the alternatives even where he acknowledges that the technical aspects had been overcome. Take hydrogen for example. He dealt with both Fuel Cell and ICE implementation and then went on to describe the limitations of producing and distributing hydrogen as a fuel. My recollection is that he examined all the known alternatives with the same degree of balanced analysis.

Kunstler is also a strong advocate for passenger rail which is a valid alternative for personal and freight travel. Walking or cycling are also valid alternatives, just as telecommuting and working from home are.

Electrification of transport is probably going to happen to some degree, but we cannot expect that the transport systems of the future will look, feel and function exactly like the one we have today. Adpating to the new conditions is our cahllenge rather than trying to force conditions to stay the same.

"I think the Long Emergency was a well researched book...My recollection is that he examined all the known alternatives with the same degree of balanced analysis."

hmmm. I'll have to look again: my recollection is that he didn't examine wind, solar and PHEV/EVs in any significant detail. If you have the time, I'd appreciate quotes from the book showing how he reviewed these.

Hydrogen is a bad example. It's never been a viable transportation energy carrier, and was pushed by the car industry as a red herring to derail the efforts of the CARB, the PNGV program, and higher CAFE standards.

Rail is good, but it's consistent with Kunstler's very strong bias against cars.

Geez Nick, This would go a lot easier if you actually read what Kunstler wrote.

Try starting in The Long Emergency at page 121.

Basically he says that wind/solar/evs are by products of the fossil fuel age and it has yet to be demonstrated that these industries can function independently of cheap fossil fuels.

"The advanced industrial nations need to have all the necessary alternative infrastructure in place long before that background support disappears." p128

"Basically he says that ... has yet to be demonstrated that these industries can function independently of cheap fossil fuels. "

This is very superficial and general. There's no detail here, nothing that demonstrates any technical understanding.

It's also clearly wrong (which is why there's no detail, because there's nothing out there that supports it), but that's a different discussion.

"The advanced industrial nations need to have all the necessary alternative infrastructure in place long before that background support disappears." "

Yes, if aliens suddenly took away all of our fossil fuels, we'd be in very, very bad shape. If PO depletion rates are very high, the transition to alternatives will be very painful. No question about it. As it is, the transition will be fairly painful (relative to Business As Usual), but likely nothing at all like Kunstler's predictions.

Again, this is very superficial and general.

This is very superficial and general. There's no detail here, nothing that demonstrates any technical understanding.

Of course it is. I am summarizing what kunstler wrote, who was summarizing a whole body of work. Don't attack me, I'm just the messenger. Read the damn book yourself.

Yes, if aliens suddenly took away all of our fossil fuels, we'd be in very, very bad shape.

Well, that's a rational, well thought out argument.

Again, this is very superficial and general.

Why don't you do us all a favor and read the Long Emergency for yourself. Seriously. Its late here, and I need to go to bed. I'm tired of arguing with a guy about a book he's never read. This is ridiculous.

"I am summarizing what kunstler wrote, "

I just took another look at the book's discussion of wind and solar (pages 121-131), and I see what you mean. My apologies - you were indeed summarizing.

In fact, Kunstler does have somewhat extended discussions - on that my memory was wrong. Instead, he just gets the discussion wrong, and fails to provide detailed, quantitative support (which makes sense, because it doesn't exist).

As you note, his main argument is that wind and solar are complex technologies, and he doesn't think we'll be able to maintain them in a world whose economy has collapsed (and, as I have acknowledged before, if collapse were to happen I would agree we're in big trouble...). Of course, there's no credible reason to believe it will collapse in the first place, in part due to the fact that wind and solar do actually work.

He just assumes collapse - so far I've seen no support for the idea that there will exist energy shortages sufficient to do this. Certainly his simplistic idea that diesel is essential to such things as wind turbine construction and coal mining is unrealistic. I think it's perfectly clear that there isn't anything that can't operate without fossil fuels with the possible exception of long-distance, low-cost aviation.

Certainly his simplistic idea that diesel is essential to such things as wind turbine construction and coal mining is unrealistic. I think it's perfectly clear that there isn't anything that can't operate without fossil fuels

Read it again. He says "The advanced industrial nations need to have all the necessary alternative infrastructure in place long before that background support disappears."

He doesn't say you couldn't have an electric economy, just that you need it to be in place before you kick the legs off the stool.

Instead, he just gets the discussion wrong, and fails to provide detailed, quantitative support (which makes sense, because it doesn't exist).

I agree he lacks detailed, quantitative support. But not because it doesn't exist. But because his audience doesn't want it. He just didn't include his footnotes. Frustrating to people like you and me. But we are not his target audience.

"He doesn't say you couldn't have an electric economy, just that you need it to be in place before you kick the legs off the stool."

Yes, occasionally he says something very slightly encouraging, before he goes back to his very assertive, but ungrounded, speculation that renewables are impossible (I'll see if I can find a good quote for you, and try to add it later this afternoon, if no one has frozen this comment by replying). A bit like Lucy, Charley Brown, and the football.

In fact, though, as far as electrical generation goes, he's completely wrong: renewables can be phased in as necessary. Electrification of transportation is a different problem, but he doesn't begin to discuss that, except for a general, highly inaccurate discussion of EV's.

"I agree he lacks detailed, quantitative support. But not because it doesn't exist."

I disagree - I don't think it exists. Are you aware of anything authoritative that supports his contention that FF's can't be replaced?

"his audience doesn't want it. He just didn't include his footnotes. "

It's easy to include end note numbers in the text, and place the end notes at the end of the book. It doesn't interfere with the flow of the narrative at all. Serious people (who have them) include them.

Almost 5 GW of hydroelectric power (multiple turbines & generators to cannibalize for spares, 18 identical ones on NY side from memory) will remain at Niagara Falls, half on US side.

It is hard to see this resource going to waste. And if less water is diverted for tourists, more for regional power. 5 GW is a nearly constant 250 watts (day & night) for 20 million people.

Best Hopes,

Alan

The problem with carpooling in the 70s wasn't so much logistics as it was just having people find each other so that they could arrange to carpool. It wasn't so much of a problem with huge employers that had thousands of employees; people that worked for small employers had a much more difficult time finding other people with which to carpool.

Now we have the internet and dedicated websites set up just to overcome this problem by matching people up. I would expect better results with carpooling this time if the incentives become good enough.

The idea that "people won't carpool" assumes that there is no change in the incentive structure. One simply has to change the incentive structure until the point is reached where people are happy to carpool.

There are a variety of incentives that can be used. For example, back in Soviet Russia, if you wanted people to do something, you simply held a pistol to their head. If they thought you were bluffing, you took someone out to the courtyard and put a bullet in their brain.

People will carpool if you hold a gun to their head.

Of course we in the West are much more civilised. We would prefer to hand out $1000 fines to anyone driving alone during rush hour.

But even this is unnecesary. You can simply let the price of fuel rise until the idea of carpooling becomes attractive. Will you carpool at $5 a gallon? No? Howabout at $50 per gallon?

I know, I know, society will collapse before $50 a gallon, yada yada yada. Well I submit to you that carpooling will become attractive at a price point somewhat lower than that which will cause a societal collapse.

At some point people will simply not be able to afford to drive unless they have a passenger to share the fuel bills.

If it takes $500 per barrel oil to force people to modify their behaviour, then oil will go to $500.

But I expect political pressure will result in rationing or fines for "fuel hogs" before then.

See slug lines in DC as an innovative approach to anonymous car pooling.

http://www.slug-lines.com/

Fascinating social response to car pool incentives !

Best Hopes for Slug Lines,

Alan

That's great!

It looks like HOV lanes are the proof of concept for carpooling. If we want to expand carpooling, we should expand HOV lanes.

No need for such extremes -- Germany has had agencies to pair up drivers with passengers, even for single trips, since at least the late 80's -- pre-web.

Nick - "Kunstler...just assumes that they are inadequate (which they aren't)."

Oh really? You need to be careful about what web-sites you wander into Nick. You might pick up some bad habits like...Reality!

"Oh really? You need to be careful about what web-sites you wander into Nick. You might pick up some bad habits like...Reality!"

I'm well aware that what I'm saying conflicts with some people's fears and intuitions. You might want to be more specific...

More importantly, have you read Kunstler? Do you remember any detailed discussions of alternatives, and why they won't work?

Nick - Yes I've read Kunstler. But here are a couple of short clips that might be useful to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANmeC24QMto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulxe1ie-vEY

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1484635787266506285

Joe

Thanks. I'll have to watch them later.

2) Kunstler is an urban planner who decided that suburbs were terrible long before he know about peak oil,

Kunstler is not an urban planner and has never claimed to be an urban planner. Nor has he claimed to be an expert in the field, nor has he ever consulted as an urban planner. For more details, listen to KunstlerCast #9: Urban Planning

and the demise of suburbs due to peak oil is wishful thinking on his part, and

Distant suburbs have already begun their demise due in part to spiraling gas prices. See for instance the NPR story Home Prices Drop Most in Areas with Long Commute:

Economists say home prices are nowhere near hitting bottom. But even in regions that have taken a beating, some neighborhoods remain practically unscathed. And a pattern is emerging as to which neighborhoods those are.

The ones with short commutes are faring better than places with long drives into the city. Some analysts see a pause in what has long been inexorable — urban sprawl.

or the Atlantic magazine feature, The Next Slum:

But much of the future decline is likely to occur on the fringes, in towns far away from the central city, not served by rail transit, and lacking any real core. In other words, some of the worst problems are likely to be seen in some of the country’s more recently developed areas -- and not only those inhabited by subprime-mortgage borrowers. Many of these areas will become magnets for poverty, crime, and social dysfunction.

... Unfortunately, the next transformation, like the ones before it, will leave some places diminished. About 25 years ago, Escape From New York perfectly captured the zeitgeist of its moment. Two or three decades from now, the next Kurt Russell may find his breakout role in Escape From the Suburban Fringe.

"Kunstler is not an urban planner and has never claimed to be an urban planner. Nor has he claimed to be an expert in the field, nor has he ever consulted as an urban planner. "

Perhaps I used the wrong word. How would you describe him? Would you disagree that he hated suburbs long before he said anything about energy?

"Some analysts see a pause in what has long been inexorable — urban sprawl."

That's a far cry from Kunstler's point of view.

I've read the Atlantic article - it seemed to be long on anecdote and short on data. For instance, near the beginning the author discusses the fate of 10 areas hardest hit - this doesn't seem likely to yield a useful overall analysis, and indeed I couldn't find any data to put that part of the article into context.

I would describe Kunstler as a journalist, novelist and public speaker. He himself describes his speaking gigs as a "comedy act." So he should get along well with Colbert.

If you're interested in more detailed data supporting Leinberger's article, there are resources available:

- Leinberger's book, The Option of Urbanism

- his Brookings Institution page on Walkable Urbanism

- Arthur C. Nelson's research is listed on his CV page, and see specifically his JAPA article Leadership in a New Era

Jonathan Levine's research appears in his book Zoned Out

Closely related to Leinberger's thesis, but not explicitly cited in his "Next Slum" article, is Tomorrow's Cities, Tomorrow's Suburbs by Lucy and Phillips

"I would describe Kunstler as a journalist, novelist and public speaker. He himself describes his speaking gigs as a "comedy act.""

That doesn't sound like the description of an energy expert.

"detailed data supporting Leinberger's article, there are resources available:"

Thanks. Let me clarify that I agree that PO will encourage urbanism, and in fact I like and live in such a setup. I'm objecting to the idea that the apocalyptic view expressed in his book is at all likely.

In World Made by Hand, Kunstler imagines a series of catastrophes happening concurrently or sequentially: peak oil, nuclear war, global warming, and epidemics (not to mention some mysterious supernatural factor). The chance of exactly that scenario coming to pass is basically nil, IMHO.

Still, if we fail to get busy and address these global challenges, we could see conditions in the U.S. deteriorate to the level of Russia in the 1990s. That scenario is much more within the realm of possibility.

"if we fail to get busy and address these global challenges, we could see conditions in the U.S. deteriorate to the level of Russia in the 1990s."

It's conceivable, though I think it's unlikely - it would take some bad luck or very bad management (not that I haven't been surprised by the extraordinarily bad management of the Current Occupant of the White House). I certainly agree that we could face economic stagnation, or sustained recession pretty easily.

It would take something more serious than vanilla PO, like a revolution in KSA, or a general gulf war, to take us to the level of 90's Russia. Could those things happen? Sure, which is why the Current Occupant can only be described as recklessly negligent. If his administration hadn't killed the PNGV program, the US domestic car industry likely would have had hybrids similar to the Prius long before (the PNGV program kickstarted the Prius - the Japanese thought the US was serious...!).

Actually, if you're curious about my worst fears, I think climate change is much more difficult, more threatening, harder to fix than PO.

carpooling could reduce overall US oil consumption by 25+% in 6 months.....we could easily require that non-emergency highway travel be done with two people, or that driving above 20 MPH must be done with passengers, or some such

We could also mandate by law that no Mexicans come to America illegally, we could mandate by law that no one smoke pot, we could mandate by law that people not drink/drive, we could mandate by law that everyone drive the speed limit.

First, I'm not convinced that your "25% in 6 months" number is correct....do you have a source or a mathematical breakdown for that figure?(hint: it's a bit more complex than a X-Y=Z equation) but even assuming that is technically accurate - that doesn't mean it's realistic - which is the position that I think Kunstler argues from. If you ask Kunstler, he'd probably agree that it's technically possible to replace domestic air travel with high speed rail, but does he foresee this happening? No, because it's not realistic.

Second, it's almost as if you believe America is a dictatorship. Do you really believe that the President can just say: "Today you drive alone, tomorrow you'll drive with a passenger" No, he'll have to have congress sign on to it, which is laughably impossible. There is absolutely no way that such a law would be supported by the public, period. This is America, not Russia. Your comparison to the New Deal is fallacious - the whole thing was just a series of regulatory reforms and spending programs. Not draconian mandates on the public, and certainly not some kind of dictatorial coup constitution-burning party.

Kunstler may have an overly cynical view of the future, but that doesn't mean your overly rosy is anymore realistic. IMO, it's borderline delusional.

"We could also mandate by law that no Mexicans come to America illegally, we could mandate by law that no one smoke pot, we could mandate by law that people not drink/drive, we could mandate by law that everyone drive the speed limit. "

Sure, we'd have to enforce it. I would note that many places do a very good job of enforcing that people not drink/drive. We're really not very serious about enforcing the rest. Wouldn't you agree?

"I'm not convinced that your "25% in 6 months" number is correct"

More than 45% of US oil consumption is from light vehicles. We just have to slightly more than double the 1.15 average occupants per vehicle. This would slightly easier for commuting, which accounts for 50% of light vehicle VMT. We did far more in WWII - wouldn't you agree?

"If you ask Kunstler, he'd probably agree that it's technically possible to replace domestic air travel with high speed rail"

There's no sign of that in his writings. I think you're being overly generous. I'd be pleased to be proved wrong.

"Your comparison to the New Deal is fallacious "

I'm not comparing to the New Deal, I'm comparing to WWII. I'm talking about what we can do if PO is generally recognized as an emergency, roughly analogous to WWII.

"Kunstler may have an overly cynical view of the future"

uhmmm, his Mad Max vision is only "overly cynical"??

Kunstler, writing two weeks ago:

Blind Spot

In point of fact, these are exactly the kind of trips that would be better served by rail, anyway -- the towns that are less than five hundred miles apart. The travel time between trains and planes would be comparable, considering the two hours or so that you have to add to every airplane trip because of all the security crap, not to mention the delays. ...

It's imperative that this country gets serious about restoring the passenger rail system. We can't not talk about it for another year. We must demand that the candidates for president speak to this issue. If you who are reading this are active reporters or editors in the news media, you've got to raise your voices behind this issue.

Thanks. Well, that's encouraging. The previous poster said: "If you ask Kunstler, he'd probably agree that it's technically possible to replace domestic air travel with high speed rail, but does he foresee this happening? No, because it's not realistic."

I'm glad to see that the previous poster was incorrect - this article suggests that Kunstler feels that a large expansion of rail is possible. That's great. Now I'm curious - has he incorporated anything about hybrids/PHEVs/EVs into what he says?

Nick,

He talks about rail in just about everyone of his talks. He has many times in the past made the point that the US has a rail system that Bolivia would be ashamed of.

I think your attacks on Kunstler are way off base here.

"He talks about rail in just about everyone of his talks. He has many times in the past made the point that the US has a rail system that Bolivia would be ashamed of."

I'm glad to hear it. I would note that rail is only a small part of what we need.

"I think your attacks on Kunstler are way off base here."

I think people need to know not to take this book as a source of any useful info about our future. I was dismayed to see RR suggest that Kunstler had shaped his worldview, and I wanted to warn people not to make the same mistake.

I'm glad to hear it. I would note that rail is only a small part of what we need.

Have you ever read what Kunstler writes? Cause that's what he says too.

I was dismayed to see RR suggest that Kunstler had shaped his worldview, and I wanted to warn people not to make the same mistake.

This is what RR wrote:
"It caused me to look at the suburbs in a new light, and to really appreciate how vulnerable the U.S. is to oil shocks. It made me realize that problems will start to crop up – not when we run out of oil – but simply when supplies can't meet demand. In the U.S., we built a society based on cheap oil, in which one can live 40 miles from work and drive a gas guzzler to and from work each day. As I read his book, it sank in that this model was likely to come to an end sooner rather than later."

What do you object to in that?

I really think you are just attacking the deamons in your own head.

"What do you object to in that? I really think you are just attacking the deamons in your own head."

RR posted a reasonably positive book review of a mad max book, which as best I can tell provides no useful information about the future, how we should feel about it, or how we should shape our plans. That seems to me to be a fairly strong, implicit endorsement of Kunstler's views, and I felt people should have a good context in which to evaluate Kunstler's writings.

RR said: "It caused me to look at the suburbs in a new light". That suggests an endorsement of Kunstler's views that suburbs in general are unsustainable, something for which Kunstler provides no proof at all. Maybe RR meant something much milder than that, but he doesn't say so.

RR said "In the U.S., we built a society based on cheap oil, in which one can live 40 miles from work and drive a gas guzzler to and from work each day. As I read his book, it sank in that this model was likely to come to an end sooner rather than later."

Well, in a very narrow sense I would agree with that - I think gas guzzlers are unsustainable. But that's not what Kunstler says - Kunstler believes personal transportation is unsustainable, and again provides no proof. RR's comments (combined with his review of this apocalyptic book) suggest an endorsement of Kunstler's views.

RR goes much further than that: he discusses in detail the implication of social collapse so thorough that modern medicine is no longer available. That seemed to me a clear endorsement of Kunstler's apocalyptic vision.

RR said: "If you want to remain oblivious to the threat of peak oil, or are otherwise convinced that technology will enable the status quo to remain, then you probably won't care for it (although again the book is worth a read for the story itself)."

That certainly seems to be an endorsement of Kunstler's apocalyptic vision - it suggests that that if you aren't oblivious to PO, or believe that the status quo will change substantially (as I do), that you're likely to enjoy the book and learn from it - I strongly disagree with that.

Elsewhere RR talks about wanting to be on a farm if disaster strikes, so I don't think I'm off-base in these interpretations.

RR posted a reasonably positive book review of a mad max book, which as best I can tell provides no useful information about the future, how we should feel about it, or how we should shape our plans.

Fiction:
something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

Its fiction Nick. Good grief. He's been very clear he took some 'literary liberties' for the sake of the story.

Get a grip man.

As for what RR wrote, I'll let him speak for himself.

"Its fiction Nick. Good grief. He's been very clear he took some 'literary liberties' for the sake of the story."

TOD isn't a literary review, it's a serious energy journal. Posting a review of a fictional book about a future shaped by energy (or it's lack) suggests that we take the book seriously. RR's comments are consistent with that. Perhaps he didn't mean them to be...

Wow, I didn't see the announcement when they made you editor.

Congrats.

Wow, you disagree that TOD is, or wants to be, a serious energy journal??

Also, my understanding was that comments served a peer-review function. We don't want serious review and criticism of the posts??

Also, my understanding was that comments served a peer-review function. We don't want serious review and criticism of the posts??

If that was you goal, you were not very clear.

So far all you have done is

1. Attack a work of fiction as a something its clearly not.
2. Attack Kunstlers writing without having a clear understanding of what he wrote.

"Attack a work of fiction as a something its clearly not."

This isn't a literary review journal. Kunstler has in the past presented himself as having something serious to say about energy, and RR presented his review of Kunstler's book in TOD, which is devoted to with energy and generally related things. I feel this very likely misled some readers. If we're now all agreed that Kunstler isn't a serious commentator on energy, and this book has nothing to do with serious thinking about energy, then I'm happy.

"Attack Kunstlers writing without having a clear understanding of what he wrote."

Not at all. Kunstler does not provide realistic information about energy, and his treatment of alternative energy is superficial and inaccurate. I will admit that I forgot that he does spend a fair number of words on these subjects, before getting them wrong.

Nick,

This isn't a literary review journal.

this is exactly what I was pointing out in a different thread: who says that your conception of what The Oil Drum should be is the "correct" point of view?

Has it crossed your mind that the editors of TOD are guiding the growth of the blog with due care and like how it's turning out?

Speaking just for me, please refrain from filling the threads with your opinions on what should and should not be part of TOD. Please direct your comments to the editors who will, in all likelihood, engage you in at least some conversation to hear your concerns. If it became clear in that conversation that you were being righteous about your point of view, they likely also would stop speaking with you out of sheer frustration in dealing with your dogmatism, as I have done twice now.

Best,
Andre'

"who says that your conception of what The Oil Drum should be is the "correct" point of view?"

I could be wrong. Do you disagree that the editors of TOD want it to be a serious journal, and somewhat different from a personal blog?

"Has it crossed your mind that the editors of TOD are guiding the growth of the blog with due care and like how it's turning out?"

Of course. And, I think that they would say that RR is a serious contributor, and that in general he's doing fine. I suspect they are happy to give him a little leeway, and if he makes a minor mistake, like accidentally giving a flaky book too much credibility, they're not going to publicly make a big deal out of it.

OTOH, I think we're performing the peer-review function just fine. The fact is that RR and I have succeeded in largely clarifying what he meant, and that's the main thing.

Let me clarify why I spoke very strongly in my first post. First, consider how much effort RR put into cautioning people to not call peak prematurely - isn't something like this, where people might think that TOD is endorsing an apocalyptic view, just as important? More importantly, we hope that new people will come to TOD and learn from it. You referred to my " opinions on what should and should not be part of TOD" - but it's not what I think that matters here, it's what new readers expect TOD to be, and I think they expect something serious, with useful and accurate info (if they don't, it's my opinion that the editors of TOD would be disappointed - perhaps I'm wrong...). Unlike regulars, these people are still learning, still forming their views, and are unlikely to give feedback (as RR apparently expects). These people are, apparently, making life decisions like family size, career, and so on, based on the info here. I think we owe to them our highest efforts towards quality information. Does that make sense to you??

I'm listening carefully to what you, and others say, and replying thoughtfully. If you're frustrated that I don't agree with you, I understand, but please hear me when I say that it's not because I'm not answering you in a flexible and thoughtful way. If you have further specific thoughts, I'll reply to them.

It took me a great number of years to recognize my arrogance.

Best,
Andre'

hhhmm. Well, please see my recent discussion with Robert.

Nick is constantly "not clear." See my prior discussion with Nick on this. He deliberately obfuscates in order to "frame" the debate in the manner in which he wishes to drive it.

I don't think so.

Please see my other recent comment.

RR posted a reasonably positive book review of a mad max book, which as best I can tell provides no useful information about the future, how we should feel about it, or how we should shape our plans.

As others have pointed out, it's fiction. And as I pointed out, I don't think things will turn out like that. Somehow this has gotten turned into an endorsement of Kunstler's views. I will tell you that nobody else - to my knowledge - has come to those conclusions based on what I wrote.

Here's an example where I think you are hearing what you want to hear:

That suggests an endorsement of Kunstler's views that suburbs in general are unsustainable, something for which Kunstler provides no proof at all. Maybe RR meant something much milder than that, but he doesn't say so.

I didn't say either way, yet you jumped to a conclusion. Thinking about the suburbs in a new way means looking at them in a way I haven't looked at them before. It means understanding that the suburbs are a big reason for our high level of fossil fuel usage. Doesn't mean I think they are going to be abandoned. If you base your views on what I actually wrote - and don't try to fill in the gaps based on your own preconceptions - you should come away with a different opinion.

Elsewhere RR talks about wanting to be on a farm if disaster strikes, so I don't think I'm off-base in these interpretations.

I have said before, I have a foot in two worlds. I expect that we will muddle through what I believe will be a difficult time ahead of us. But I do have a handy back-up plan that didn't cost me anything. The analogy I use is that just because you have homeowner's insurance, that doesn't mean you expect your house to burn down. But if it does....

Well, that all makes sense - I hope you're right.

I really do think that there's a real danger that people will take what you wrote as an endorsement, to some degree. If you don't feel that this book adds anything substantive to an energy discussion, why review it here?

"Thinking about the suburbs in a new way means looking at them in a way I haven't looked at them before. It means understanding that the suburbs are a big reason for our high level of fossil fuel usage."

That's a pretty commonplace thing to learn from Kunstler - it doesn't fit with the idea that he jogged your perspective in a significant way. You can get the idea that suburbs are big fuel consumers many places, but Kunstler has a particular thing about suburbs, as we see repetitively from that Kunstler quote about suburbs in the uppper right corner of TOD. That you learned something uniquely Kunstlerian about suburbs (say, that they are A Bad Idea) from reading his work is a reasonable inference for the reader.

In any case, it would be useful to clarify this in your Original Post.

"I do have a handy back-up plan that didn't cost me anything. The analogy I use is that just because you have homeowner's insurance, that doesn't mean you expect your house to burn down. But if it does..."

Your house burning down has a less than 1000:1 chance. If you feel the risks of collapse are that low, it would help to say it.

You talked at length at about what it would be like to be without modern medicine. Doesn't this seem like a particularly Kunstlerian thing, that society would collapse and be unable to recover enough to support complex technology? You didn't say specifically that you gave it any credence, but it would help to say that you don't think it will happen.

Finally, I think part of the problem may be that your blog is a platform for your personal views, while TOD is energy related. To talk in the fashion you do about personal interests like medicine is perfectly appropriate on your own blog, but will have a different meaning here. Does that make sense?

If you don't feel that this book adds anything substantive to an energy discussion, why review it here?

That's not what I am saying at all. I read a lot of books:

http://r2books.blogspot.com/

I don't review many of them here. Kunstler's book portrays a society that many readers here think awaits us. I think it is very valuable to discuss that: Is it right, is it wrong, what pieces might be right, where did he get it wrong? Understanding the future that awaits is very important to me. Working through Kunstler's work has always provided me food for thought.

You can get the idea that suburbs are big fuel consumers many places,

Yes, I can, but I didn't. It was reading him that some ideas struck me for the first time. Certainly, I could have found bits and pieces everywhere. And when I read Emergency, there were scenarios that I found implausible. I asked my wife if she would read the book, and she did. The importance of that is that I felt like she would understand my desire to minimize our fossil fuel usage. And she did. But it also scared her, and I talked her through those parts. But now she understands why I feel the need to have a backup plan.

Your house burning down has a less than 1000:1 chance. If you feel the risks of collapse are that low, it would help to say it.

But the risk of something happening to your house - something that would require you to file an insurance claim, is quite a bit higher. Personally, I feel like the risk of societal collapse is 10% or less. There are others here who I am sure feel like the risk is 90%. But for that 10%, I have to have insurance.

You talked at length at about what it would be like to be without modern medicine. Doesn't this seem like a particularly Kunstlerian thing

I stated the reason I talked about that. I was thinking about that long before I ever read Kunstler. It used to be a focus of my evolutionary biology studies - why deleterious genes can persist. And there are a lot of places in the world where modern medicine is absent, and you will find that those people tend to be more genetically fit. They have to be; deleterious genes don't survive long.

Finally, I think part of the problem may be that your blog is a platform for your personal views, while TOD is energy related.

TOD is energy related, but there are lots of discussions here on sustainability, the environment, politics, etc. For instance, Nate has written a lot about the psychological and genetic reasons that we behave as we do. Where it says "Discussions about Energy and Our Future" at the top of the page, those discussions about "our future" cover a lot of the ground you appear to be objecting to.

Interesting. I'm not sure if our difference of opinion is about substance, or presentation.

"Kunstler's book portrays a society that many readers here think awaits us. I think it is very valuable to discuss that: Is it right, is it wrong, what pieces might be right, where did he get it wrong? "

I agree. In order to do this, I think you need to state very, very clearly which parts you agree with, and why. It seemed to me that that portion of the discussion needed to be substantially strengthened, which is in part why I commented.

Let me clarify that I have no objection to a wide-ranging discussion of the future, especially as it relates to energy and sustainability. I just wasn't clear if, for instance, you were talking about genetics because you thought that the permanent lack of medicine which the book portrays seemed like a plausible scenario (I was assuming not - if so, I would argue with you about the substance), or it was a personal interest that was sparked (free-association style) by thinking about the lack of medicine in this book, in which case it would seem potentially misleading to readers, who would might believe that you thought it was a plausible scenario, in the absence of a clear statement otherwise.

"Personally, I feel like the risk of societal collapse is 10% or less. "

Again, I think this is an area where this kind of specificity in the original post is helpful. Further, I think it would help greatly if you clarified what kind of collapse you meant. Kunstler appears to believe that collapse would be very deep (i.e., mad max style)permanent, and involve the permanent end of "high tech". I suspect you would see collapse as less total and would see no reason for it to be permanent in this way (as I do, strongly) - this would be helpful to clarify.

"I asked my wife if she would read the book, and she did. The importance of that is that I felt like she would understand my desire to minimize our fossil fuel usage. And she did. But it also scared her, and I talked her through those parts. But now she understands why I feel the need to have a backup plan."

hmmm. This seems like a compelling anecdote, and yet it troubles me. It seems like showing someone a movie about the horrors of Katrina & New Orleans to convince them to buy home-owner's insurance - in other words, it seems like overkill which unnecessarily scares the subject, and has great potential to backfire. It's my belief that creating fear, will, in the short or long term, usually be counterproductive. Better to share really good information, slowly, and allow people to digest it and get to where they need to be.

Let me clarify why I spoke very strongly in my first post. First, consider how much effort you have put into cautioning people to not call peak prematurely - isn't something like this, where people might think that you were endorsing an millenarian view, just as important? More importantly, we hope that new people will come to TOD and learn from it. Unlike regulars, these people are still learning, still forming their views, and are unlikely to give feedback. These people are, apparently, making life decisions like family size, career, and so on, based on the info here. I think we owe to them our highest efforts towards clear information. Does that make sense to you??

I'm afraid I may have offended you, or others, by speaking strongly. I hope I haven't - it wasn't my intention. I just felt an obligation to really get this stuff clear...

I'm afraid I may have offended you, or others, by speaking strongly.

You haven't, but you did get the wrong impression, and I am not convinced that too many others did....

" I am not convinced that too many others did"

Well, what the heck, I hope you're right!

I was dismayed to see RR suggest that Kunstler had shaped his worldview, and I wanted to warn people not to make the same mistake.

Nobody "shaped" my worldview. Kunstler prompted me to think. As I said, it doesn't mean I agree with the future he envisions. But I found The Long Emergency food for thought - even if I didn't agree wtih everything. For instance, it's food for thought if Kunstler posits a scenario, and I work out why things won't turn out that way - or what might mitigate it. So, in short I think your comments are way off base.

"Kunstler prompted me to think.... For instance, it's food for thought if Kunstler posits a scenario, and I work out why things won't turn out that way - or what might mitigate it."

I would agree with that, and yet I don't think that's what you conveyed, overall, with your post. I detailed my perceptions, and the reasons for them, in my reply above to Rethin.

Perhaps you were just writing hastily and therefore didn't convey what you wanted to, but if that's the case I would urge you to write more carefully - perhaps by writing fewer posts and spending more time on each one. You have often written in the past about the importance of not making bad predictions, in order to preserve credibility - this is similar. We want TOD to be a serious journal. People do read TOD, and take it seriously. Let's do it right.

Nick, may I suggest that consider that you -- as do all humans, including me -- have filters that color your view of the world? These filters fill in the the picture when there are pieces missing. They are very useful to human beings, but they also get us into a lot of trouble. Just ask my wife when I say, "I'd like to get a motorcycle" and based on the conversation that ensues, I could swear she heard, "I'd like to kill myself in a road accident and leave you without a husband."

You are, of course, free to ignore my suggestion. But I do think that the conversation here would go a lot easier if you took a moment to ask yourself what filters might be operating before you respond to people. If you step back and take a hard look at many of your comments, I think you might notice a pattern.

- someone comments
- you make it mean something that wasn't said
- they try to get it clear what was actually said
- you apologize (sometimes not, although generally you are pretty good at fessing up)
- the patterns starts all over again

Many of the conversations here seem to move along quite effectively when people stop every once in a while and ask, "Did you mean this or this?" and refrain from being argumentative about their interpretations of what people said. (See Robert's responses to you.)

Robert himself has demonstrated that people are not their point of view. He clearly is capable of looking through a different point of view just to see what becomes visible when he does that. Kunstler is offering a very valuable point of view; you don't have to take it as your own. Just see what is valuable from it and leave the rest.

As for your interpretation of what constitutes a serious energy journal, may I suggest that that comment again comes from a particular filter that you have and it may or may not be the view the founders of the site have?

Best,
Andre'

Andre,

Thanks for the polite tone, even when I sense that you disagree with me strongly.

I'm very aware of filters, and perception. If you look at my discussion with RR, you'll see that I discuss it extensively - I ultimately suggest that the problem lies in the placement of a piece that RR wrote for his own blog, and for which his musings were appropriate, in what I really do think is intended to be a serious energy journal, albeit in a creative online format.

"Many of the conversations here seem to move along quite effectively when people stop every once in a while and ask, "Did you mean this or this?" "

That's certainly a good idea. I would note, however, that in my first comment I was discussing how this piece would be read by readers in general. For that, only the original text is important.

"If you step back and take a hard look at many of your comments, I think you might notice a pattern."

I'm delighted to learn new things, and I like to acknowledge them, but if you were to review my comments carefully and systematically, I think you'd find that I didn't retract any of my central points. That's because I try to only make strongly affirmative statements when I'm pretty confident they're strongly grounded.

"Kunstler is offering a very valuable point of view"

Well, you see, we disagree on that. I can well imagine a post-nuclear holocaust without the help of fiction, and I don't see any substantive contributions to the energy debate from Kunstler, especially from this book.

"As for your interpretation of what constitutes a serious energy journal, may I suggest that that comment again comes from a particular filter that you have and it may or may not be the view the founders of the site have?"

I took that perception from Prof Goose's comments, over time. I have the impression that he'd like TOD to make a serious, substantive contribution to the energy debate and to policymaking. I think he'd like it to be taken seriously by analysts and policymakers. I think that means that contributions should be carefully written, in order to convey what the authors intend, and that placement of personal musings that are unrelated in any way to energy or sustainability (as might be posted in a personal blog) in an Original Posts is likely to be interpreted as intended to relate to energy. Do you think I'm wrong? Prof, any comments?

I took that perception from Prof Goose's comments, over time. I have the impression that he'd like TOD to make a serious, substantive contribution to the energy debate and to policymaking.

I will let PG speak for himself, but I will add my $0.02. Here is what I said above. This is primarily an energy site. But there are lots of discussions that aren't purely energy related. Kunstler's world was made possible by the loss of energy supplies, so this is more related than some of the things that are written here. But, look at the banner at the top: DISCUSSIONS ABOUT ENERGY AND OUR FUTURE.

I didn't mean to object to discussion of any particular topic, I was discussing my concern that certain discussions, if not presented in a clear way, might be misleading to readers, especially new ones. Please see my other recent comment.

Keep in mind that it wasn't exactly a walk in the park to get Americans committed to fighting the Nazi's. It took an actual military invasion of the United States to spur us to action. I think to get Peak Oil to be recognized as an emergency on that scale, gas would need to get to maybe $10 a gallon, and by then it's probably too late to keep things remotely "normal" economically (e.g. a smoothly transitioned shift to carpooling facilitated by internet networking tools)

Here are a few issues that would make a dent in your 25% figure:

1. Enforceability - you assume that we can just say "we'll enforce it" and magically, it'll be enforced. How much additional manpower/patrol cars (and therefore fuel and costs) would it take to enforce this? What happens if you break the law? A fine? That doesn't prevent speeding very effectively. Higher fines? People simply won't pay what they cannot afford. What then? Jail time? What are those costs?

2. Realistically considering #1, many will simply ignore this law, or get around it by driving with children or grandparents (i.e like HOV lanes)which doesn't affect gas demand.

3. Logistics - if all cities were designed in such a way that homes were located in point A and jobs in point B, then we would be in better shape. But post war urban America is not - it has weak cores and highly dispersed jobs and scattered housing, making a carpool conversion of any significant scale extremely complicated. How much VMT savings would be lost due to pick-up/drop off of others in multiple locations, let alone multiple others in multiple locations?

IMO, carpooling as a peak oil strategy is not a realistic solution. Mass transit combined with high density development and much higher CAFE standards are the solutions. Much of the exurbs will be significantly devalued and will end up resembling the thousands of small American towns that served as rail stops pre-War and are now abandoned.

Well, thanks for the thoughtful answer - it's a pleasure to get some real feedback.

OK, here goes.

"Keep in mind that it wasn't exactly a walk in the park to get Americans committed to fighting the Nazi's. It took an actual military invasion of the United States to spur us to action. "

Yes, it's an interesting question - what would it take to get people committed to this? One possibility would be a sudden massive cutoff, say by war in the Persian Gulf. Another would be a sudden crash of the dollar, which took gas form $4 to $10 overnight. On the other hand, I was looking at one end of the spectrum - there are many points in between.

"gas would need to get to maybe $10 a gallon, and by then it's probably too late to keep things remotely "normal" economically (e.g. a smoothly transitioned shift to carpooling facilitated by internet networking tools)"

So, you feel the internet would break down if gas got to $10/gallon??

Keep in mind that we're likely to have a plateau for several years, and that going from $50 to $100 is only half as many dollars as going from $100 to $200 - I agree with Jeffrey Brown that there will be several steps of demand destruction at gradually higher price levels. There will be several years for affluent people to buy Prii and Chevy Volts, and for less affluent to find carpooling arrangements.

On enforcement: that would depend enormously on the perceived legitimacy of the emergency. WWII rationing didn't require draconian enforcement - everyone cooperated pretty well.

On logistics: I think you greatly underestimate the number of people who live very nearby to each other, and also work very nearby to each other, and have no idea. After, people who only have a 2 mile commute aren't who we're concerned about. If people have to travel 1 mile to get to the other person's house for a 20 mile trip, there's little waste. What's really needed is a large market of interested people, for a critical mass.

OTOH, realistically, I agree that PHEV's and rail are the sensible strategy for dealing with PO transportation issues. My point is, that in an emergency we have alternatives.

After all, let's decide what we're dealing with here. Is it an emergency, in which we have a serious economic problem and people are in danger of not being able to get to work, or not? If not, then a gradual transition with PHEV's will work just fine. If so, then more serious and incovenient measures will be needed - like carpooling.

Consider: building Transit Oriented Development and rail is much slower, and more expensive than PHEVs. Which would you do - buy a house for $100K more in a dense urban area, or buy a $24K Prius, which is probably less expensive than your last car (the average new light vehicle is $28K)?

You might ask, what about renters, and the poor? Well, for the most part, they're not in suburbia...

So, you feel the internet would break down if gas got to $10/gallon??

Not suddenly, but maybe eventually. $10 gas in America would lead to major problems – including food shortages and sharply spiking unemployment. For instance, would Wal-Mart remain solvent at $10 gas? That’s our country’s largest employer and a significant distributor of food. Simply mandating carpooling as a response to economic crisis would not be enough, IMO. I think your 25% reduction is WAY too optimistic – I think at best we could hope for a 5%-10% reduction from such a mandate, but only if also combined with a complete government takeover of oil/gas price control, and a government that knows what it is doing.

A sudden emergency situation may actually be a good thing. For instance, if OPEC suddenly decided to cut all exports to the U.S. I think the government today is powerful enough to take-over the oil/gas industry to prioritize supply to the most important areas – food production/distribution, heating, certain industries etc. I don’t think this situation is at all likely however.

A more likely crisis scenario is in fact the “Long Emergency” where the economy and government power become gradually eroded due to unrelenting rising oil prices, environmental catastrophes and widespread ignorance - to the point where government would be incapable of performing such a task (i.e. the frog in boiling water analogy).

After all, let's decide what we're dealing with here. Is it an emergency, in which we have a serious economic problem and people are in danger of not being able to get to work, or not?

This question represents exactly the kind of paralysis that could lead to collapse. You are assuming that the chicken comes before the egg, when maybe it won’t. Why do you assume that the ability to get to work will be taken away before the work itself?

building Transit Oriented Development and rail is much slower, and more expensive than PHEVs.

Perhaps, but consider that America produces between 5-6 million cars each year – and builds between 1-2 million housing units annually. Remember you’re FDR quote? What if tanks were substituted with trains?

Which would you do - buy a house for $100K more in a dense urban area, or buy a $24K Prius, which is probably less expensive than your last car (the average new light vehicle is $28K)

Assuming I had accurate information and incentives, I’d pick the house. Everyone needs a place to live, not everyone needs a car. The best Prius gets 45 mpg highway. On average, commuters drive 32 miles per day. That’s still about $142 per month in gas at $10 a gallon. For many living in exurbs that number will be double - ~$300 a month with a Prius. If I lived 30 miles from work (which A LOT of people do, especially in the sunbelt) And I knew gas prices were on a permanent increase, and there were plenty of affordable houses in walkable neighborhoods only 10 miles or less from work, I’d definitely move before investing in a new Prius.

You might ask, what about renters, and the poor? Well, for the most part, they're not in suburbia...

Yes, but where are they increasingly working? In suburban Wal-Marts and other suburban employers in health, hospitality, and back-office service sectors.

More complexities with carpool mandates:

What happens when your fellow carpooler is sick, or loses his job, or on vacation?

What if I just need to go to the grocery store, to the mall, to the dentist, to pick up my medicine from the pharmacy, to take my kid to school? Do I need to drive to pick up a passenger? How will a cop know when one is commuting to work and when one isn’t?

What if I just simply can’t find a carpooler? What then?

This idea is way more complex in reality than you are making it sound, and you are being way too optimistic on the amount of oil displaced by such a mandate.

Yes, carpooling would be complex and inconvenient - that's why we don't do it now.

I'm talking primarily about commuting. Very short trips don't take that much fuel, and many things could be delivered by PHEV/EV trucks.

I do suspect there would be room for ad-hoc pools of people waiting for drivers. Balancing them would be difficult, but not rocket science.

The point is, that there is an enormous under-utilized resource available in all those empty seats. It seems to me an enormous failure of imagination to think we couldn't find a way to use them in an emergency.

Again, we did much more difficult things in WWII, with far fewer resources (in terms of telecom, etc).

This is a long discussion. I'll to add more later, but here are a few thoughts.

I agree that rising oil prices will make things more difficult. I see no evidence that even depression would make things completely collapse - depression would just slow things down. BTW, the last thing to go will be long-distance transport by water - it's incredibly fuel efficient.

"What if tanks were substituted with trains? "

Trains and houses will still be much slower to build than light vehicles.

"America produces between 5-6 million cars each year – and builds between 1-2 million housing units annually. "

Car sales are about 16M. New housing sales are now about 600K.

The next step after a Prius is a plug-in like the Volt, or an EV, which won't be any more expensive than current vehicles.

Yes, some working poor live in cities, and work in suburbs. They get there with mass transit. More importantly, they don't represent someone who will move from the suburbs to the city - they're already mostly there.

If he's an urban planner by inclination that would explain a hatred of suburbs with no corresponding hatred of population growth while railing about irrevocable resource depletion.

How can the current grid power 85% of light vehicles being converted to battery power? Is there some kind of excess capacity at night that can charge them all with no need for more power generation?

"Is there some kind of excess capacity at night that can charge them all with no need for more power generation?"

Yes, if we're talking about generating infrastructure. OTOH, if we never built another windmill or solar system then we'd need a substantially larger amount of coal as fuel.

How can the current grid power 85% of light vehicles being converted to battery power?

I think many people don't have a clear idea of the quantities under consideration here. Some numbers, first for electricity generation:

  • Existing US generating capacity: 1M MW x 8800 hours/year = 8.8M GWh/year
  • Actual US electricity generated: 4.1M GWh/year
  • Average capacity factor: 47%

If you compare those tables, you'll find the capacity factor is so low in large part due to the ~25% capacity factor of natural gas plants. Now, consider the amount of electricity needed for electric vehicles:

Running the math, we get 2.9T miles/year x 0.25kWh/mile = 0.7T kWh/year = 0.7B MWh/year = 0.7M GWh/year. Hence, replacing all of the US's light vehicle traffic with electric vehicles would increase the nation's energy demands from 4.1M GWh/year to 4.8M GWh/year, meaning the average capacity factor of power plants would increase from 47% to 55%.

So it appears that the generating capacity already exists.

(It's also being increased already, with new baseload plants planned to come online by 2011 that'd cover 1/3 of an all-EV fleet, without even considering the effect of additional wind and natural gas plants. Generating more electricity requires using more fuel, of course, but 1 btu will take an EV twice as far as an ICE, so it's still a win, even before considering the range of non-fossil fuel sources for electricity.)

Simplistic analysis.

We do not have the natural gas to dramatically increase their load factor (70% more NG burnt for electricity to recharge EVs is VERY rough analysis). You are talking about increasing US electricity generated byu 17%. That is going to take a LOT of fuel !

If 40% of EVs come home around 6 PM and plug in to recharge, that will create a new peak, and a need for new substantial new generation capacity.

There is no way to judge recharge behavior today, so assuming that most will just do it when they come home seems a reasonable, conservative planning assumption.

I so *NO* reason to think that 100% of EV owners will recharge only after midnight. Not the selfish ones I know.

Best Hopes for Urban Rail instead,

Alan

"We do not have the natural gas to dramatically increase their load factor "

True. Most is likely to come from wind (and coal, if we're not smart).

"If 40% of EVs come home around 6 PM and plug in to recharge, that will create a new peak, and a need for new substantial new generation capacity. There is no way to judge recharge behavior today, so assuming that most will just do it when they come home seems a reasonable, conservative planning assumption. I so *NO* reason to think that 100% of EV owners will recharge only after midnight. Not the selfish ones I know."

All you have to do is charge more for peak power. It's straightforward, and it works extremely well (it worked for AT&T's long distance in the 70's and it works for cell phones now). Take a look at www.thewattspot.com

All you have to do is charge more for peak power. It's straightforward, and it works extremely well

Reasoning by analogy.

And PLENTY of people called long distance during premium times.

Case *NOT* proven. I should conservatively plan for a very high % of people to recharge their EVs ASAP. I know I will if there is ANY chance of me needing to go out again soon.

I pay zero attention to time of day rates/weekends on my cell phones. When I want to call, I do.

Alan

"Reasoning by analogy."

Aroooh? (Tim Taylor sound?)

It's a proven solution, used for many things, including industrial/commercial electricity. Pricing really does work to allocate things.

"I so *NO* reason to think that 100% of EV owners will recharge only after midnight. Not the selfish ones I know."

Pricing doesn't depend on altruism. In fact, the more people care about money, the better it works...

"PLENTY of people called long distance during premium times."

Of course. The purpose of the rate bands wasn't to prevent all calling during premium times, it was to smooth out the peak.

"I should conservatively plan for a very high % of people to recharge their EVs ASAP. I know I will if there is ANY chance of me needing to go out again soon."

Well, that's an argument against NEV's, with a very short range, and for plug-in hybrids, where people won't have that kind of anxiety. I think most people will greatly prefer plug-in's.

"I pay zero attention to time of day rates/weekends on my cell phones. When I want to call, I do."

IIRC, you didn't have a cell phone until recently. I suspect you use it little, so you don't have to worry about going over some number of talk-time minutes. Regardless, I assure you, time of day pricing for cell phones works very well overall. I'm really puzzled that you're arguing this point, especially when this works successfully for I/C electricity, and for residential where it's been piloted.

You are arguing for a major shift in policy/infrastructure with a fundamental weakness.

It is unknown, and unknowable, what mass behavior will be in recharging EVs (we do not even have technical specs for the mass production EV, so the uncertainties are multi-dimensional).

Conservatively, one should assume that time of day pricing doesn't fly/affect behavior (political opposition ? One story of a pregnant wife in labor stalled in an out-of-juice EV ...). Pilot programs with self selected individuals and non-EV loads (dryers do not equal cars) are not predictive of mass response.

Make the assumption that 80% of EVs will be plugged in at 6 PM weekdays, and see what that does to the grid and Natural gas supplies. If 80% recharge can be handled with ease, then not a problem. If 80% recharge cannot be handled by generation and the distribution grid, then this puts the entire strategy in jeopardy.

You are betting the house on a GUESS as to widespread consumer behavior with what is basically an uninvented technology (how many have even seen even ONE EV bigger than a NEV ?)

These are the types of questions that I have wrestled with, and answered, in my own advocated mitigation strategies. I think the same approach needs to be applied to plans for Happy Electrified Motoring.

Note that I do NOT support High Speed Rail in the USA, and very tepid support for buses. OTOH, I have come to support bicycling as a bigger (and more quickly implemented) part of the solution, despite no personal attraction to bicycles. I try to let the facts and reality guide me.

Best Hopes for Conservative Analysis,

Alan

"You are arguing for a major shift in policy/infrastructure "

I really don't think so. It's a much smaller shift than an aggressive move to TOD (not that I think TOD is bad).

"It is unknown, and unknowable, what mass behavior will be in recharging EVs"

I'm just baffled by your insistence on this point. It seems perfectly obvious to me (and to the author of every serious discussion of this that I have read) that our current peak power problem is due to an artificial, flat pricing structure. People respond predictably to pricing. People do so in California, with their complicated tiered pricing, I/C customers do so with the very simple peak pricing mechanisms used (broad, 1 price bands for peak "demand" charges), and customers in similar markets also respond in straight-forward, predictable ways. This is a no-brainer.

"we do not even have technical specs for the mass production EV"

Sure, we do. They'll be PHEV's, and GM and Toyota will have them on the market very soon (2010 or sooner). There's an EV with 100 mile range, $15K price and $100-200 monthly battery lease cost very likely coming in 2009. This is 100 year old technology, with just newer engineering and batteries. GM's batteries are 99% proven through extensive bench and field testing, and GM has two suppliers to address that last 1% (the failure of both, as unlikely as that is, would just set the program back a couple of years, as NIMH or even lead-acid would work, and they're 100% proven). Toyota wil likely use proven NIMH. This is just not the unproven thing you suggest, it's really not.

Why haven't we had them before? Because of dirt cheap gasoline. There were 10's of thousands of them being sold around 1910, and then really cheap gas arrived (in part because electrification had chased oil out of the home lighting market, a good example of the power of electrification). A PHEV/EV is competitive when gas rises above $1.75/gallon (US), and of course becomes more competitive as gas rises further.

"One story of a pregnant wife in labor stalled in an out-of-juice EV "

Running out of gas is not an unfamiliar idea. Much more importantly, PHEV's address this problem. Serial PHEV's are 100 year old tech - the're flat-out obvious tech, with straightforward (though it can get as complex as you want, it's still straightforward) engineering.

"what is basically an uninvented technology (how many have even seen even ONE EV bigger than a NEV ?)"

It's very straightforward tech. The EV-1 worked just fine, as did the RAV4 EV (which is still on the road, doing just fine). Perhaps the best example is the Prius - it's a vehicle with a proven electrid drive train: Add a plug, as Calcars has done with 100's of vehicles, and you have a proven PHEV - there's 1,000,000 Prii on the road. Come now, Alan, you know that electric motors and drivetrains are old and proven.

"I do NOT support High Speed Rail in the USA,"

I guess that makes sense - a big additional cost for a marginal increase in utility. Why do you think the French and Japanese are so into them? Do we have different conditions, or are they just going for prestige projects?

you all are crazier than bed bugs,

when it collapses you aren't going to be sitting comfortably anywhere but you will be thinking about where (and if) you are going to get your next meal, find some clean water to drink and some way to pay for either or both

and when it collapses, it will do so with such breath taking speed and suddenness, and triggered by a cause and from a direction that no one will have foreseen or considered—despite all the pretension of wisdom and knowledge by so many—if there is any history written about the events they will simply wonder how so many could be so willfully misguided for so long.

Hybrids like the Prius reduce fuel consumption by 50% over the average US vehicle, and plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt reduce consumption by 80-99%.

Peak metals will prevent the hybrid car future from becoming a reality.

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=33255

Firstly, a heck of a lot of the metal in a car is re-cycled - and those SUV's have a lot more metal than would be needed for the size of their likely replacements.
Secondly, weight is important for electric cars, so many of them would likely be carbon fibre or similar.
I hope that sets your mind at rest!

You still need plenty of energy to build the things even if the steelisrecyceld from other cars. It may still not be any less energy to build new cars from recycled metal than from virgin ore. If the ore runs out (which it won't) and we only have scrap metal to play with, there will be many more important things to build with it than cars for personal transport.

Peak metals will prevent the hybrid car future from becoming a reality.

The article you quoted says nothing of the sort. Indeed, it seems to say rather the opposite:

"Of course this brings me to the actual solution, one which would leave our consumer society intact. We could make a mix of lithium battery technology-powered hybrid or all-electric vehicles for high performance and a much larger number of nickel metal hydride battery technology powered hybrid or all electric vehicles for “ordinary use,”

You know the initial production of the Volt for 2010 is 10K units - and will likely sell for 48 thousand USD according to GM's Vice Chairman of Global Product Development? If you expect Volts and Priusi to be the sum total of your new car figures we could wholly ignore depleting supply; I'd more likely expect scooter sales to go through various roofs.

Haven't read every comment but is anyone paying attention to the fact that Kunstler is using nuclear destruction of cities to throw Union Grove back a century? Or considering that conditions may be wholly different in other parts of the country - including better?

Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia

"You know the initial production of the Volt for 2010 is 10K units"

Sure, for the first year. I would agree that PHEV/EVs won't arrive as quickly as would be desirable.

"and will likely sell for 48 thousand USD according to GM's Vice Chairman of Global Product Development"

That was incorrect reporting. Lutz didn't say that. He did say that the price is rising above the original $30K goal, due to the extremely fast pace of development. My guess is that they see rapidly rising demand, and are trying to figure out what kind of premium they can charge.

Hybrid sales are at about 2.5% of new car sales, and are roughly doubling every 2 years. At that pace we'll be at 10% in 6 years, and 50% in 10-12 years. Again, not as fast as desirable. Hopefully the pace will pick up.

Some of the comments I keep seeing from posters on TOD is this post peak oil catastrophic decline will not happen for 50 or a 100 years. Also, that oil would have to trade at 1000 dollars a barrel for the whole system to collapse.

However it seems that once a crisis is at hand, world events seem to unfold very quickly. So far all we've done is hit crude extraction plateau and staved off a the decline with other forms of oil, yet prices are still skyrocketing, although now finally retreating somewhat. My understanding is that only a small percentage lack of supply to meet demand can cause widespread panic like it did in the 70's oil crunch. I was there and as a sophmore high school student working at a gas station where the line stretched for a 1/4 of a mile.

So it doesn't take much to tip the scales and once the other side of peak shows itself in steep declines, countries will begin to hoard their oil supplies and those without enough (US) will do who knows what to economically survive.

One comment in the article about the book caught my eye, and that was it was difficult to accept a country like Brazil having plenty of oil while the US would be without enough. There's the rub right there. The US is actually in the worst case position as a world player. We import more oil than any other country while our own production continues to decline. Any shortfall of a serious amount will have devastating effects.

My overall point of this post is that I think the post peak debacle will unfold sooner than later, like the next 10-15 years at max. and possibly much sooner. Also that the price of a barrel of oil will not have to be that incredibly high to cause a major contraction of the world economy. I actually think it could be as little as 225 per barrel.

But like so many have pointed out, the future is a difficult thing to predict and we shall see. What a ride it will be...

"My understanding is that only a small percentage lack of supply to meet demand can cause widespread panic like it did in the 70's oil crunch. I was there and as a sophmore high school student working at a gas station where the line stretched for a 1/4 of a mile."

That wasn't a panic due to inherent psychology, it was due to rationing, a bad government response which made problems much, much worse.

People would occasionally use up a good portion of their allotted 5 gallons just waiting for another ration.

There is general understanding in the US government that rationing didn't work well (at least for most people....), and that seems to be a relatively unlikely response to future oil shortages.

The government did not have rationing in 1979 & 1980, and I still remember gas lines and many gas stations being closed because they ran out of gas. The government had an "allocation program" that gave priority to cartain segments of the economy, like railroads, barge lines, farmers, government services (police), etc. The personal automobile user was low on the allocation list along with many recreational uses for fuel. The RV industry and travel industry was hurt badly by this, but no food shortages resulted and most people accomodated the restrictions.

The fuel shortage of this period was handled rather well, but demand destruction ensued from a recession. That really helped lower oil use, but pushed unemployment to almost 12% in 1981/1982.

"The government did not have rationing in 1979 & 1980"

Don't you remember alternate day fueling, by license plate?

"I still remember gas lines and many gas stations being closed because they ran out of gas. The government had an "allocation program" that gave priority to cartain segments of the economy,"

uhmm...that's rationing, and it had the usual result, which is waiting lines and anxiety.

"demand destruction ensued from a recession."

18% interest rates helped too, and Volcker didn't do that solely because of oil-induced inflation. Oil was a substantial component, but it was far from the only one.

"That really helped lower oil use, but pushed unemployment to almost 12% in 1981/1982.""

True, but the conversion from oil for electrical generation helped as well.

"There's the rub right there. The US is actually in the worst case position as a world player. We import more oil than any other country while our own production continues to decline."

That assertion is in no way correct if are talking about imports as a percentage of consumption. Japan, Korea and most of Europe for example will be in horrific shape compared to the U.S. as they import almost all of the oil they use. And the North Sea which provides what oil and gas Europe can produce seems to be declining in production far faster than the U.S. did post peak.

RC

Even though these countries are hugely dependent on imports of oil, much of their transport is not. The US imports 65% of its oil and refined petroleum products and uses about 75% of all oil/refined products for transport. If we were to lose even half of imported oil/refined products, how would transport fare with having only half of its fuel? Japan and much of Europe rely on nuclear and coal fired power plants for a great deal of transport energy. The US is reliant on oil for 98% of its transport energy.

The US would be hurt much worst than Europe and Japan as most Americans have no alternative to transport that uses oil.

"The US would be hurt much worst than Europe and Japan as most Americans have no alternative to transport that uses oil."

Oil won't go away, it will just get scarcer and more expensive.

If the price doubles, carpool with another person. If it doubles again, carpool with 3 other people. If it doubles again, carpool in a Prius. If it doubles again, buy an EV (which will be ready by then. Heck, EV's with 100 mile range ($15K plus $100-200/month for the battery lease) are coming next year.

The problem here is that we're facing a new situation, and we're not thinking creatively.

Yet you have no quantitative data to support your assertions of how much scarcer or how much more expensive.

Your assumption that someone can just go out and buy a Prius or an EV because fuel increases in price is mind boggling. The spiderweb of side effects from energy costs rising like that would ripple through the economy, even as they are now, causing other problems and further eroding consumer purchasing power.

You do not appear to be evaluating the problem systemically at all and instead applying a patchwork of bandaids that you hope will work.

" you have no quantitative data to support your assertions of how much scarcer or how much more expensive."

I was responding to the following: " most Americans have no alternative to transport that uses oil."

My point is that it's not difficult to reduce one's consumption and costs by 50%, or 75%. Carpooling has no capital cost, and can be implemented quickly. Would you disagree?

Further, reducing commuting fuel consumption by 100% could be done for a group of four people for $15K. That doesn't seem bad to me.

I would note that transportation is roughly 70% of US oil consumption, so transportation is the main problem.

"Your assumption that someone can just go out and buy a Prius or an EV because fuel increases in price is mind boggling. "

Finally, yes, I agree - if everything completely collapses then we'll
be out of luck.

"Your assumption that someone can just go out and buy a Prius or an EV because fuel increases in price is mind boggling. "

Finally, yes, I agree - if everything completely collapses then we'll
be out of luck.

Come on Nick, that's a cheap dodge of a very important point.

Well, it would take a long time to explain the problems with this argument, and it's been a long day. :)

I'll try to expand on it later.

I was referring to total number of barrels per day.

Outside of the PO community there seems a great deal of scepticism that a real problem exists. CNBC calls the current increase in oil prices a bubble. National online publications regularly poo-poo the idea. One fellow believes that oil should be around $30 a barrel, and that oil will soon drop to that price (he seems to have a strong following in the online world). The real consensus is PO denial, and denial will continue to control our national reactions to higher oil prices. Fixing the price problem will involve getting more oil, not conservation.

Internet organized carpooling is an interesting subject someone should do a dedicated article about here, to try and gauge how effective it really would be. It has its obvious drawbacks but seems like an simple way to save an awful lot of fuel - possibly it would mediate a lot of the traffic gridlock we deal with at the moment.

Somewhat counterintuitively,I thinkthat carpooling will best work for long road trips rather than intra city day commuting. It is much easier for two or more people to be flexible in schedule and pickup points when the trip is over several hundred kilometres and may take most a day to complete.

Forintra city commutes we really do havetolook at how public and private transport can interact. Car pooling may be possible with freeway pickup and dropoff statiosn to better utilise spare seats in point to point operations but it will have to be ad hoc opportunistic rather then predeined sharing with you neigbours to work.

Somewhat counterintuitively,I thinkthat carpooling will best work for long road trips rather than intra city day commuting. It is much easier for two or more people to be flexible in schedule and pickup points when the trip is over several hundred kilometres and may take most a day to complete.

This is actually the situation where the German system (Mitfahrzentrale) I mentioned above works.

I recently finished the book and found it a reasonably good read. It flows OK and the characters are all as believable as the problems they encounter. I didn't ponder the chronology too much because, after all, this is fiction. More interesting is that Kunstler shows himself as an optimist, not something readily gleaned from his other work.

Still, I usually recommend Robert A. Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress when I want someone to understand how people and societies behave when faced with depletion of a key resource.

/concur kcrsnova, Harsh Mistres is an excellent book, one of Heinlein's best. The crisis on Luna (for those that havn't read the book) had specifically to do with water (extracted from lunar rocks) and thus how much wheat could be produced for earth's starving masses. The only way for Luna to survive was to halt all exports, heinlein's version of ELM. this of course led to war with Terra. In the book, the Loonies had AI to help them, not sure we even have the regular kind of I to help us. we could use a nice dose of collective intelligence. We're resourceful, or we wouldn't have lasted this long. Maybe the crisis will give us the incentive to work together again and (to quote Buckaroo Banzai) get our butts off this rock.

Hey Robert thanks for the review. I enjoyed Jimmy's tale and found it reasonably plausible but agree that he compressed the time a bit maybe by 8-15 years. If Peak Oil was the only boogey man facing our society then maybe I would buy the 25-50 years that some here expect. I however continue to struggle with how the other societal foibles will interact with P.O. to supercharge a faster semi or more dynamic collapse.
As I watch nervously what some call the "Custers Last Stand" of the Fed in trying to prevent a financial collapse resulting from the subprime market and an overly indebted consumer. Their frantic tactics of over inflating the currency to provide liquidity while at the same time intervening in the commodity markets (buying dollars) to prop up the dollar and mitigate higher commodity costs make me wonder how long they can maintain the juggle. Now throw on the resource constaint issues associated with food, water, critical minerals and metals, and potential pandemic illnesses and you just dramatically increased the P.O. leverage. What I don't have a sense for anymore is the strength of the social fabric and the ability of large numbers of our population to add value especially as we keep progressing to a more segmented aging population. I lost a lot of faith in our abilities after Katrina and the myopic political gamesmanship has only increased. On balance I move from a fairly perpetual slight state of future related anxiety tension to the occasional lost night(s) of sleep that I experienced after first reading the Long Emergency. Thanks for that JHK... and do you have any plans to follow up this book with a sequel?

Such a scenario certainly is a possibility, but it doesn't have to be the only possibility. With sustained, consistent policies that promote energy efficiency and the development of alternative fuels, as well as focused attempts on the part of investors and corporations to devote resources to renewable energy, we can avoid a massive crisis.

If you're interested in learning about what companies are doing in the renewables sector, I suggest you check out the Renewable Energy Finance Forum-Wall Street, held June 18-19 in New York City. REFF brings together financiers and renewable energy project developers to network and share ideas about the future of the industry. Over 40 high profile industry leaders will be speaking at the event, discussing topics such as solar power, wind energy, biofuels, market drivers, and more.

For more information, visit www.REFFWallStreet.com.

yes?

And all of that focused on continuing to churn out products, doesn't matter what kind, color or cost, to sell and to buy and to discard.

Wind energy that is a significant contributor to the coming extinction of many bird species. Solar power to further enable and prolong consumerism and the filling of the oceans with ever greater quantities of plastic and chemicals.

Biofuels to further enable synthetic and corporate agriculture requiring inputs and outputs to be transported hundreds and increasingly thousands of miles with many other wasteful inputs required (packaging, marketing and legal costs for consumers who suffer negative health outcomes as result of consuming their products) to produce the most elemental food products.

Market drivers. Well the thing about market drivers, and markets in general, is that they don't do well with externalities. You know those pesky melting glaciers and ice caps, depleting aquifers and creating toxic lakes to turn tar sands into oil, and global fish stocks the have been market driven to the point of absolute and eternal collapse.

What may turn out to be THE fatal flaw of humans is our arrogant belief that there is no problem that can't be solved with the right people in the room working the problem.

"Wind energy that is a significant contributor to the coming extinction of many bird species. "

Not really. For instance, the Audubon Society strongly supports wind power.

While blogs may allow for immediate and "synergistic" (it will be the death of all of us eventually) it also allows for unsubstantiated and irrelevant information to be fronted as factual and cogent when in it is neither.

Nick if you are truly concerned about the ongoing mass extinction of birds across the planet one location for scientific information is the link below.

http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/psw_gtr191/Asilomar/pdfs...

As for the Audubon Society—Sierra Club, Earth First!, Friends of the Earth, The Nature Conservancy, pick your favorite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_environmental_organizations, it is a long list—they are as much a part of the problem as is any other institution, organization or corporation.

They exist to provide employment and their resources are wasted on generating new resources for the next budget year while the caps melt, species disappear (and I know 80 percent of all species to have ever existed on the planet have gone extinct but not at the hands of one other species as is now the case) suburban sprawl and flagrant waste and excess continue unabated.

This study looks pretty thorough. It finds that wind turbines cause
0.003 percent of anthropogenic bird mortality.

.0003%!!!

It seems very clear to me that the AGW/environmental benefits of wind are far more important than bird deaths.

OTOH, I agree that ongoing species extinctions are an enormously grave problem.

This general discussion points to a related policy implication: it's important to be clear on the likely dynamics of such things as urban sprawl. If, as I believe, high energy prices will only make a marginal difference to the growth of urban sprawl, we will not be able to rely on urban sprawl to stop on it's own: it will be important to intervene to restrain it through regulation. This is a good example of why it's important to be clear on the likely accuracy of wild predictions (like Kunstler's, that suburbs are doomed).

there you go again distorting and obfuscating...

Buildings 550 million 58.2 percent
Power lines 130 million 13.7 percent
Cats 100 million 10.6 percent
Automobiles 80 million 8.5 percent
Pesticides 67 million 7.1 percent
Communications towers 4.5 million 0.5 percent
Wind turbines 28.5 thousand <0.01 percent (Mid-range of per turbine and per MW estimates derived from empirical data collected at several wind projects)
Airplanes 25 thousand <0.01 percent
Other sources (oil spills, oil seeps, fishing by-catch, etc.) not calculated not calculated

So your dismissal of the significance of bird kill from wind turbines means you think we should do something about the half a billion from buildings, 130 million from power lines, 80 million from automobile (and that just from collisions) and 4.5 million from communications towers.

Yes?

Oh, and by the way, the wind turbine numbers were current to 2003 and acknowledged to be less than rigorous in their accuracy. For wind power to have any meaningful impact on replacing fossil fuel the numbers will have to increase by what, ten fold, a hundred fold, a thousand fold?

And when we get done exporting our "life" (ironic use of a word that describes an engine of death) style to China, India and Africa and what do you get...

Hey but by then the damn birds will be all gone from the all those other causes anyway. So dude party on! Build more, build bigger, build faster, build, build.

"there you go again distorting and obfuscating..."

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just because I disagree with one detail, doesn't mean I disagree on other things. So, yes, I agree that we should do something about other causes of bird deaths - I thought I made that clear when I discussed the importance of the current mass extinctions.

And, I think wind should be expanded by very roughly 50 times over it's 2003 levels (of about .5% of US kwh's), which gives us .0003 x 50 = .015% of overall bird deaths. Again, to me that's pretty obviously much, much less important than the mitigation of AGW that wind turbines would provide.

your number of .0003 to quantify deaths of birds from wind turbines is simply wrong... extrapolating it forward to a made up estimate of what you think should be wind's component of maintaining our current economic reality is of no value.

so which of the other causes of bird death do you want to start with?

car strikes? you up for getting rid of the automobile?

pesticides? you up for taking on big oil, Archer Daniels, Monsanto and all the rest of corporate ag?

communications towers? how about picking a fight with madison avenue, Rupert, Sumner and Barry and the telcos?

rome is burning and too many seem too comfortable fiddling

"your number of .0003 to quantify deaths of birds from wind turbines is simply wrong"

I'm baffled. That's the conclusion of the study you cited!

there you go again distorting and obfuscating...

that is not the conclusion of the study cited and you didn't answer the question asked

but then that isn't your purpose

Robert - Great review. Thanks!

Hey everybody, time to cheer up! Let me share this tremendous insight that just dawned on me. The United States is actually the LARGEST SAVER in the world and so best placed for the future. Why, you ask?

Well, it's now common knowledge that all that stuff we have thrown in the trash ends up immortalized in the landfills...even an issue of a newspaper can last for many decades and still be readable.

So, while others accuse us of being the wasteful society, we'll have the last laugh because we have been (unknowingly, I must admit) been energetically SAVING all kinds of things for the future by sending it to landfills strategically placed so that everyone can dive right in to extract it all as the need arises. Why, just yesterday I tossed many many VHS tapes in the garbage, a small contribution to the United States Savings Account.

Recycling? Bah! That's a good way to degrade things as stuff gets chopped up, melted etc. to create inferior quality materials. No, the dumpster, not the recycling bin is where it's at!

There is a gold mine...or maybe more of a plastic, paper and glass mine...just waiting patiently for us to begin our withdrawals. So we really HAVE been setting aside for future generations and should be proud of the way we have done it with gusto!

Reduce, reuse, recycle? No! Consume, consume some more, and chuck it all for the future.

Don't know about you but I'm buying extra garbage cans for the sake of my grandchildren.

About that Future, I think Bob Dylan said a lot when he said 'When you ain't got nothing you got nothing to lose'.

I guess the 'corollary' to that would be that those with a lot got a lot to lose. (and will IMO)

I also guess that there would be one big sigh of relief if the North tanks and the WTO the IMF as well as the corporate globalized detribalizing agricultural con job they run gets off of the chests of the South. "Whoopee, us black,red and yellow fuckers get eats again!"

bob dylan also wrote, "and it's a hard rain that's going to fall"

I was struck - hard - by the nakedly patriarchal ethos of World Made By Hand.

All the trustees were men, no women and no plain laborers. As the world changed, we reverted to social divisions that we'd thought were obsolete. The egalitarian pretenses of the high octane decades had dissolved and nobody even debated it any more, including the women of our town. A plain majority of the townspeople were laborers now, whatever in life they had been before. Nobody called them peasants, but in effect that's what they'd become.

This is on page 101. It's never qualified in any way. All the active characters are male; the religion is Old Testament (the climax is - literally - an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth). This "reversion" is not, apparently, just for the duration of some emergency. It's as though Rousseau and the Enlightenment had never existed - the French Revolution as well as the Industrial Revolution wiped out.

It was easy to feel one of the minor characters was secretly writing The Handmaid's Tale.

Absolutely.

By page 19 we've been informed that women make the wine, do the laundry, and have their bodies loaned to their husband's best friends in an "arrangement."

Women don't need to buy this book- simply pick up any old science fiction book and it'll contain the same ideas. In WMBH we're Real Dolls and factories wrapped up in one.

I didn't even question that society reverts back to blatantly elitist male control I thought JHK was throwing us a mind candy bone, men back in local control.... major fantasy. Seriously though if we slide back to a 19th century model do you expect the fairer sex to assume control? the economically disenfranchised to wield voting power? While I wouldn't rule out special circumstances I can't see it any other way. The smaller the world gets IMO the more the traditional roles will assert themselves. Its only been this way for less than half a century and then only in the Western world (disregarding our recent cult reminders) that leaves the rest of recorded history for the nakedly patriarchal ethos.

The rise of feminism tracks very closely with the rise and availability of cheap and plentiful energy, especially in the 19th century and up. The energy of the fossil fuel era cut the societal dependence on the inexpensive, often unpayed energy of women. With the waining of fossil fuel, the roles of women as an inexpensive energy source will return and I think is reflected in A World Made by Hand. I've read a number of comments critical of JHK for his treatment of women characters in the new book but I suspect his depiction is closer to what will happen in a low energy world, initially over populated, making reproduction less positive, then crashing to an under populated world, making reproduction a valuable Property, as in chattel.

The rise of feminism tracks very closely with the rise and availability of cheap and plentiful energy, especially in the 19th century and up.

Do not forget to add in the effect of the Bicycle. Plenty of writings have been done on this in the past.

And of course, we must also remember the inverse relationship between piracy on the high seas and global warming.

Discourse on the Origin of Inequality was published in 1755. This was not a "high-octane world". The class most clamoring for Liberté, égalité, fraternité was the artisan class of pre-fossil-fuel Europe - exactly the class responsible for the historical "world made by hand".

Hi Kansas,

Thanks for your comment

re: "I didn't even question that society reverts back to blatantly elitist male control..."

It's not what we "expect" as you say:
"do you expect the fairer sex to assume control?".

The "fairer sex" - (speaking only for my fairer self :)) - does not *want* "control", as you put it. I/we long for something else entirely.

It's what might be possible.

I hope you see it.

Another way.

For a moment.

Hi Berkeley,

I really (really) appreciate your bringing this up - and thanks to Sandblaster.

When one lives the "nakedly patriarchal ethos" - and plenty of people do (present tense) in the world today - it's personal. It's about survival of consciousness. Or, to put it another way - it's about the survival of the possibility of consciousness, for lack of a better word. The possibility of the existence of a mind (or a spirit) and the recognition of it - or even...surviving for the unimagined possibility of an education.

I could call it the struggle to survive as a human being, despite something so stereotypical as youth and/or physical beauty and all the dangers that come with it - dangers in the form of threats to one's humanity. To one's physical survival.

On the subject of drudgery, I highly recommend the book (Amazon.com) Never Done : A History of American Housework, whose title explains the content quite well. Cheap energy has definitely given people the free time to reassert their individual liberty; I thought JHK didn't need to include the inevitable assertion of machismo though, one of various flaws with the book I wasn't happy about. That is, in the case of the townspeople; with his fundamentalists or scavengers it would likely be the rule. He could have thrown in a band of neoAmazons too, of course.

The last few commenters seem to be completely unaware of ancient and current societies that are Matriarchal. Apparently these societies managed to exist thousands of years before the discovery of oil, so much for everyone reverting back to Patriarchal rule. There seems to be nothing in the history of anthropology that indicates that this would be the only route to survival. If anything it is the Patriarchal societies that mostly got us into our current mess. Maybe they will even eventually become extinct by natural selection.

The future may very different from the past said the furry little mammal looking up at the starving Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Early in the comment thread, a poster mentioned his distaste for the references to the supernatural in World Made By Hand. When reading it, at first, I was put off as well. But upon reflection, I believe it is entirely possible that we humans, living in our fast-paced world have become totally disconnected with the alternative mysteries of life. I think it is an interesting position of Kunstler that in the Long Emergency, these mysteries will reveal themselves as the pace and the noise of everyday life subsides.

Actually a lot of the circumstances in the novel seem a little too pat - at the end you have five seamstresses working on treadle sewing machines - dug up in a town of, what, 5K people? Maybe the whole novel is set in an alternate reality.

John Crowley wrote a series of novels, the Aegypt books, where magic has fallen by the wayside due to science's domination, but begins to reassert itself. Perhaps JHK is a closet mystic!

In general I hope as things become more obviously grim some more talented writers put pen to word processor and we get some more classics of doomer porn like The Road. Gene Wolfe wrote a great short story called "Blackberry Jam," whose title doesn't refer to spreadable edibles, but rather a broken down freeway filled with its last traffic. He's way ahead of Kunstler as an author, I'd love to read a whole novel of his depicting an low energy world, before entering the real thing that is.

Very well done. Someone's thinking with feeling.

"Mainly I compressed the time scale of 'Long Emergency' conditions gaining traction...."

Hopefully fiction does not become fact in terms of how soon this all happens to us. But I agree with you Robert...we'll be driving around something. At least as long as the planet is still alive.

Thanks for pointing out that many of us are largely not cut out for a hard knocks future too, Robert. No way I could wake up in the middle of the night and deal with marauders - I suffer from myoclonic epilepsy and have intermittent seizures when woken from deep sleep. Without Abbot Labs's Depakote I'm in a world of shit! Unless there's a homebrew recipe for valproic acid...

Unless there's a homebrew recipe for valproic acid...

I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice.

Valproic acid is an analogue of Valeric acid which occurs naturally in the Valarian Plant, Valeriana officinalis, which is hardy in most of the inhabited regions of North America and Europe.

The dried and ground roots (up to 10 grams per day) can be consumed directly or a tincture made by mixing them with an ethanol & water solution (i.e. vodka or similar) for several weeks then filtering. It's no taste treat either way, think "old socks" or "wet dog".

Cultivation in a somewhat dry and "poor" soil will yield roots with more active ingredient than if grown in a rich high humus & water one.

THE HANDS OF THE MECHANIC. THE TREASURE UNKNOWN TO JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER

I have not had the opportunity to read Mr. Kunstler’s book. This is in no way related to my distaste for the logic of James Howard Kunstler as I understand it from his website and what writings of his I have been able to obtain without paying for (because I have seen nothing as of yet worth paying for), but much more to do with the boredom that apocalyptic writings create for me. I was burned out on this type of writing in the 1970’s, a time when the market was over saturated in hysterical horror scenarios, all of which have proven to have been either wrong or at the least very mistimed.

However, Kunstler’s title is a good one, “World Made By Hand” as it gives me a reason to stop and reconsider once more how the industrial world in which we now live was originally made.

I have never seen any evidence that James Howard Kunstler is a student or fan of the history of technology. More is the pity. I would encourage Mr. Kunstler to take up the study of technical history, but I doubt I would have any luck in this endeavor. Firstly, it is obvious that Mr. Kunstler has an aesthetic distaste for the art that is technology, and secondly, despite his limitations, he is a man of intelligence, and such men can find the art of technology very addictive.

Attempt if you will, to think back to the first steam engine. Not the second one, or the third, or any one of the thousands built thereafter, but the VERY FIRST steam engine. How was it built? Where were the metals found to build it? How were the parts forged and cast? How were the pressures estimated, and how could it be imagined what the output would be? How were the holes bored into the steel, the boilers and pipes fastened? It staggers the imagination that it could even be done. And it was done by individuals in tiny shops, without the aid of telecommunications to procure parts or information, who’s only means of transport were on foot, horseback or by sailing ship. It was a world made by hand, to create a world that would not be.

I have seen the photos of the original shop of Karl Benz, where the first working gasoline car was built. It looks like a glorified stable. That anything remotely akin to a self propelling vehicle could have been built in that shop defies belief to this day, even though we now know it was done.

Consider the Wright Brothers. From a bicycle shop an aircraft. How does one logically follow the other?
It is fascinating to read the early history of industry, to look at the tools, the processes and the materials that were used. It causes one to realize that there were giants in those days.

Consider the ever growing integration of devices that were built, at first one at a time, to create our age: the steam engine, the gasoline engine, the electric motor, the differential gearboxes, the steering linkages, the switchgear. All built one at a time, by hand the first time. There was no “infrastructure”, no standardized processes, no communications to facilitate parts ordering and replacement.

This was a new world that had to be created from a prior world. Today we drive down the road in a vehicle that is the result of a combination of industries. One vehicle with a dedicated power station, an electronic subsystem consisting of lighting, AC current from an onboard alternator, driving an onboard refrigeration system for climate control, with steering and braking by an means of an onboard hydraulic system, and nowadays complete with satellite communication and onboard navigation. That we do this is not what is amazing. That we never bother to ask how such a thing could have come to pass in barely over one lifetime is an insult to our modern lack of human curiosity. Most of the above mentioned industries were first built at a time when little or no industry preceded them, when an “energy industry” was all but none existent. The first steam engines ran on wood. The first mission of steam power was to pump the water out of coal mines and to ventilate them so that coal could be extracted.

Having no knowledge of this world of technology and history, it is easy for James Howard Kunstler to assume that if technology is interrupted for any reason it simply stops. Of course this is not the case. In the birthing days of technology, there were many dead ends. The pioneers of technology of whatever type had no choice but to backtrack and go up alternative paths, again and again, changing methods, changing materials, changing theories. To see the early drawings and models of internal combustion engines is to see a gallery of mechanical artistry, as one permutation after another was tried, with each failure serving to eliminate one more dead end, and narrow to the arrangement that would finally work. The same story of repeated permutations is written in steel and brass in the history of the steam engine, the early days of the electric motor, the birth of the refrigeration industry , the birth of hydraulics and pneumatics, and the birth of the electric utility industry.

When we see the first gasoline automobile of Karl Benz, we are prone to see it as the start of a long chain of development, but in many ways it is the end. By the time Benz built his car, the design of the internal combustion engine and the self propelling motorcar was nearly finalized. The path was already narrowed, and what remained for the following century was to be detail enhancements and the incorporation of other technologies onto the established base.

It is often believed that the “small shop” world which created these great industries is a thing of the past. Nothing could be further from the truth. The United States is still the holder of a great treasure, one that is virtually non-considered by the intellectual class which produces writers such as James Howard Kunstler. The U.S. still possesses a network of machine shops, welding shops, fabrication shops, hydraulic and pneumatic shops and independent electrical shops that is the envy of the world. Behold the network of machine shops in Kentucky and Indiana, chosen only because they are nearest to this writer’s home:
http://www.machineshopweb.com/shopsA2Z/ky.htm
http://www.machineshopweb.com/shopsA2Z/ina2i.htm

It is safe to say that the world of tractor pulling and drag racing is not the world of James Howard Kunstler, or for that matter the world of most readers at TOD. These are seen as wasteful pursuits, consumptive of valued resources for nothing more than sport. Perhaps true, but it can be an educational world. To see 5 megawatts of energy instantly applied to pavement, delivering such fantastic volumes of power in fractions of a second give the thinking person cause for reflection and thought.

I have seen country fabrication shops design and build drive trains able to coordinate and cope with the output of four engines, EACH of 4 to 5 megawatts. Pressures, twisting forces and temperatures that many folks would consider manageable only by aerospace technicians controlled and managed by amateurs for sport! The design and construction of a 50 kilowatt electric car would be considered a weekend project by these guys. Many of them could design a hydraulic hybrid bus or truck our of the spare parts pile behind the shop. So why don’t they? Simply this: With gasoline at $4.00 bucks a gallon, there is still no market for it. But the belief that it will soon be $6.00 or more per gallon is already getting some mechanics and fabricators thinking and designing. Witness the staggering work of Felix Kramer and the Calcars group. http://www.calcars.org/ This is only the tip of the iceberg of what is going on in the small shops and labs scattered throughout the land.

James Howard Kunstler is convinced that when times get hard, the small town shops throughout the land will build a revival of a primitive world. Why would he assume such a thing?
Beginning in a primitive world, the small shops of America and the world built the modern world! From horse drawn gear to the steam age, from the bicycle shop to the airplane, from whale oil lamps to electric energy for the land. Even in an oil hungry world, we are beginning from a far higher technology and knowledge base this time than we did the first time.

Who would imagine that a creative and imaginative people would use this base to go backward to a primitive base when we did not do it the first time around when all we had to work from was a primitive base? Only someone who has no interest in or knowledge of how we came to the age we are in. Only someone who has never understood what a radical development in history the age of the small independent creative shop is.

The independent fabrication shop of skilled workmen, the age of the Mechanic, is unique in history, unique to this age. This is why using ancient Egypt or Greece or Rome does not apply well to this age. The Mechanic is to our age what the Shaman or the Priest was to a prior age. Only someone who can look at a world of machines and not see the crucial role of the Mechanic in our age can make such faulty and bogus assumptions as a James Howard Kunstler.

Kunstler is correct in one assumption and in one great turn of phrase: It will be a world made by hand. It always has been at the formative stage, at the pioneering level. But what hands do the making, and driven by what kind of imagination will make all the difference in the world.
Thank you.
Roger Conner Jr.

It may very well be a small workshop world, but it is also going to HAVE to be a lower-energy-input world, and that means it is NOT going to be a mass production world or a mega-project world. Know-how won't be the limiting factor, energy will be.

Since we can't really know the future, it is tempting to imagine the only lower-energy-input world that we know anything about, and that is the past one. You are right that it is unlikely that we will literally go backwards. We'll apply what we now know to the lower-energy-input problem and create a world that looks different than both what our world is now and what it was in the past. I have no idea what such a world will actually look like. I can make a few informed guesses:

1. Energy for transport of all kinds will be very expensive, so there will be very little of it. What transport there is will only be to move people or things that really matter, and only to and from places to the extent that it really matters.

2. Energy and other resources to make stuff of all kinds will be scarce and expensive, and thus manufactured (whether by hand or machine) stuff of all kinds will be scarce and expensive as well. Things will only be made and bought if they really matter and really are necessary. They will be built to last and well cared for, because a low energy society can't afford to be a throwaway society. Simple living will be normal living, because people simply can't afford to have much stuff any more.

3. I don't know how the problem of brining the population into line with the carrying capacity of the land will be resolved, but I do know that eventually and inevitably it must be brought into balance one way or another. Of all the stuff that people must produce, food ranks #1 in priority, and food production is going to therefore be an increasing preoccupation of just about everyone in the future.

Thanks. Beautifully written. I find Kunstler's lack of imagination, and pessimism, depressing. You've written a nice antidote.

Great, since neither one of you has actually read what Kunstler wrote...

Rethin's point is well taken, and that is why I was careful to make it clear that I had not read Kunstler's book, but was using the title of it and my reading of Kunstler's website and some of his other other shorter articles as my guide. If Kunstler's book shows up at my local library, I will of course read it (I have nothing against hearing the guy out, and he can be entertaining even in his shorter stuff) But I do not buy apocalyptic vision type books anymore. Simply keeping up with the technical non-fiction material related to energy keeps me more than busy enough.

RC

Please see my comment above.

Mr Conner,

I happen to be a member of that tribe of tinkerers and fabricators, and I am very aware of our dependence on recent technologies. Mechanical progress in the West has been incremental; each time based on RECENTLY aquired technology.

The earliest steam engine we know of in the West was a jet engine, built by an ancient Greek, so I assume you're referring to the first reciprocating steam engine. Its bore was produced using technology developed for making iron cannon (subsidised by state funding from Henry VIII).

The Wright Brothers corresponded at length with Otto Lilienthal, using a functioning international postal system. They contracted out the manufacture of their engine; the first one failed and was redone by the contractor. The precision machining technology for this was perfected by Sam Colt for the production of his revolving firearms (subsidised by contracts for the Union Army). The lathes and milling machines were water powered via jackshaft.

What points am I trying to make?
1. Much of our technological research into control and channeling of exosomatic energy has been paid for by governments trying for advantage in war. This is the priority of those who rule society: power and control.

2. Each of these steps forward is very dependent on what Kunstler called "the technological platform." Consider for a moment just exactly what bubba can build in his shop when the electricity stops coming. No arc welder. Probably no deliveries of bottled O2, either. Lets see those lathes and milling machines whirring without electricity.

3. When the electricity does become intermittent (can't happen here? Tell that to the Iraquis. Or the South Africans), do any of those bubbas know how to build a overshot waterwheel & jackshaft system? If they can't, they won't be machining metal. Hell, they couldn't even build a Colt 1852 Navy revolver. Nor do they know how to extact and purify saltpeter to make the gunpowder to put in it.

4. Can we produce enough food without massive petrochemical inputs to provide the social stability for bubba to stay near his shop (not become a refugee)?

Kunstler may be a little early in his timing, but I'm pretty sure that by the middle of this century, bubba is going to be making hoes and rakes on a charcoal forge. If we're lucky.

PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami

notintodenial,

Thank you for your interesting reply, and you are obviously familiar with technical history. I did not refer to the Greek "jet" engine for the simple reason that it was never applied to any useful work to speak of. It is a tragedy of history that the Greeks had no real respect for the position we would call "mechanic" in their culture. In this they were similiar to the Ancient Chinese culture, in that they pioneered great theoretical breakthroughs but never followed through on them.

The earliest period of large cannon manufacture is fascinating to me. Both steam engines and internal combustion engine are in one way nothing more than a repeating contained cannon, with the power of the expansion or explosion captured and converted to motion. I have seen photos of some very early cannon, and viewed and read the very good explanation of the very earliest days of steam by the the writer of "Connections" and The Day the Universe Changed" James Burke. It is still not easy to find detailed drawings and articles on exactly how the early cannons were forged, how metals were refined, etc. The history of cannon however is much longer and more varied than many people might assume:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon

The ability of the early foundry men as early as the 16th century was awe inspiring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Chokhov

This leads us to an interesting thought: It is easy to beleive, without giving the history of technology it's due study, that the reason large scale steam power did not exist before the 19th century was due to the fact that the metals and skills were not available. Much more radical is the historically supportable logic that what was missing was not the skills in the shops but the theoretical vision and will to proceed forward. This lack of vision and theory delayed the birth of the industrial age by perhaps 300 years or more. It's a staggering thought.

The history of the aircraft and the work of the Wright Brothers is equally complex. As you mention, the Wrights did indeed communicate by post. It is an interesting fact that international postal services were created long before the birth of the oil age, proving that internationalism is not the product of the age of oil, as some would have us believe. To read the history of the Wright Brothers is to read through strings of incongruities, from the building of a six foot wind tunnel to correct the "accepted" rules of aerodynamics, to towing model planes behind bicycles to test wing shapes and control methods! If you read the early history of aviation, you reaize that the single most astounding fact about their lives is that neither brother died in a plane crash. Almost none of the early pioneers whom the Wrights communicated with survived their aviation career. At lest the alternative energy industry should be a bit safer!

The argument that many technical breakthroughs are driven by government funding for military advantage is very true, but of course changes nothing. The current generation of computers was built on the work done by the aerospace industry and funded by the government. Many of the new generation of nanotech batteries were designed for government communications tasks. That does not prevent the technology from leaking, sooner or later, into the civilian world and being "borrowed" by the tinkerers.

Lastly, electricity. It is true that without electricity, any technical work is difficult (not impossible, but very difficult). I must assume that tinkerers will be the first to apply a staggering array of technology to maintain electrical power. Remember, they do not need to make it available at national scale, they simply need to power their own shops. Thermal solar systems using concentrating mirrors can provide astonishing amounts of power. Water wheels, methane digesters using waste manures and crops and windmills can all produce enough electrical power to drive machine tools for at least limited periods of time. I have a friend who operates a steam tractor as a hobby, which runs on wood and water. I was astounded by it's power when I first saw it put to work. It is portable, self propelling , and can drive any belt driven tool with relative ease. Watching it work was more educational to me that almost any book I have read on the subject of energy. This was energy at the most basic level, using the most basic fuels available. You could not run a culture at the scale we try to today on this engine, but you could easily run multiple machine tools or an electric generator.

I only wish we were somewhere else discussing this. It is a fascinating subject, as varied and poetic as any "art". I wish we could create a forum devoted purely to the subject of applied technological history. It is the story of the human imagination written in steel and bronse, glass and ceramic, wood and carbon fibre. It is the human mind converting the inanimate to the animate. It is the human attempting to mimic the Creator. It is humans working alone, working together in worldwide teams. It is part of what makes us human. The other part is our devotion to one another. The love of Creation married to our love of one another is THE STORY of being constructively and meaningfully human. That our devices begin as cannons and become engines say so much about the human desire to seek the light as we overcome our worser demons.

RC

Your comment is a masterpiece. Reminds me of Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, an inspiring piece of work, especially for one coming from a non mechanical background. We will have to learn or relearn how to get our hands dirty.

Thanks all for a fascinating and thought provoking discussion.

Another future scenario could be drawn from the dirt poor hillbillies who survived the Great Depression/Dustbowl in the Ozarks.

A friend's 84 year old father (now deceased) had lots of stories I wished I had recorded:

Going with his father and brothers to Kansas for the wheat harvest and being paid in wheat.

Often a families most treasured possession was a mule (if they had one).

Hickory King corn, a white variety of corn that grows well on poor soils was used for human food, chicken food, and 'shine. Often 'shine was a families only source of cash.

Free range chickens provided meat, eggs, and tick and bug control.

Neighbors shared what they could.

Every one knew the wild foods. Not everybody hunted and trapped but everyone fished. The forests also provided firewood as well as recreation, hiking/exploring and skinny-dipping.

Knowledge of leather and fur tanning was common.

Everything that could, got recycled, cloth, nails, jars, ...

Every family had a garden and saved seeds. Those saved seeds went on to become the heirloom varieties you can now buy at seed companies like Baker Creek, http://rareseeds.com/.

It is possible on survive on almost nothing IF there is access to land/forests. I'm afraid that at some point in oil depletion that large cities will become unsustainable.

Thanks, that's rather interesting material for me.
http://www.ecopanteh.com/en/