"Energy Resources and Our Future" - Speech by Admiral Hyman Rickover in 1957

M. King Hubbert made his views about peak oil known in 1956, at a meeting of the American Petroleum Institute. Many people don't know that only a year later, in 1957, Admiral Hyman Rickover started trying to publicize the fact that fossil fuels are finite, and were likely to peak in the first half of the 21st century. Many of the things he said then are words we wish people had listened to years ago:

Fossil fuels resemble capital in the bank. A prudent and responsible parent will use his capital sparingly in order to pass on to his children as much as possible of his inheritance. A selfish and irresponsible parent will squander it in riotous living and care not one whit how his offspring will fare.

Today the automobile is the most uneconomical user of energy. Its efficiency is 5% compared with 23% for the Diesel-electric railway. It is the most ravenous devourer of fossil fuels, accounting for over half of the total oil consumption in this country.

I suggest that this is a good time to think soberly about our responsibilities to our descendants--those who will ring out the Fossil Fuel Age.


On May 14, 1957, Admiral Hyman Rickover gave a speech to the Minnesota State Medical Association called "Energy Resources and our Future." This speech was posted in December 2006 on the Energy Bulletin, and also appeared on The Oil Drum. This speech was made available by the work of two people: Theodore Rockwell, author of The Rickover Effect: How One Man Made a Difference, who had this article in his files, and Rick Lakin, who sought out the article and converted it to digital form. Since the speach is one many will want to read, we are repeating it again.

Energy Resources and our Future

I am honored to be here tonight, though it is no easy thing, I assure you, for a layman to face up to an audience of physicians. A single one of you, sitting behind his desk, can be quite formidable.

My speech has no medical connotations. This may be a relief to you after the solid professional fare you have been absorbing. I should like to discuss a matter which will, I hope, be of interest to you as responsible citizens: the significance of energy resources in the shaping of our future.

We live in what historians may some day call the Fossil Fuel Age. Today coal, oil, and natural gas supply 93% of the world's energy; water power accounts for only 1%; and the labor of men and domestic animals the remaining 6%. This is a startling reversal of corresponding figures for 1850 - only a century ago. Then fossil fuels supplied 5% of the world's energy, and men and animals 94%. Five sixths of all the coal, oil, and gas consumed since the beginning of the Fossil Fuel Age has been burned up in the last 55 years.

These fuels have been known to man for more than 3,000 years. In parts of China, coal was used for domestic heating and cooking, and natural gas for lighting as early as 1000 B.C. The Babylonians burned asphalt a thousand years earlier. But these early uses were sporadic and of no economic significance. Fossil fuels did not become a major source of energy until machines running on coal, gas, or oil were invented. Wood, for example, was the most important fuel until 1880 when it was replaced by coal; coal, in turn, has only recently been surpassed by oil in this country.

Once in full swing, fossil fuel consumption has accelerated at phenomenal rates. All the fossil fuels used before 1900 would not last five years at today's rates of consumption.

Nowhere are these rates higher and growing faster than in the United States. Our country, with only 6% of the world's population, uses one third of the world's total energy input; this proportion would be even greater except that we use energy more efficiently than other countries. Each American has at his disposal, each year, energy equivalent to that obtainable from eight tons of coal. This is six times the world's per capita energy consumption. Though not quite so spectacular, corresponding figures for other highly industrialized countries also show above average consumption figures. The United Kingdom, for example, uses more than three times as much energy as the world average.

With high energy consumption goes a high standard of living. Thus the enormous fossil energy which we in this country control feeds machines which make each of us master of an army of mechanical slaves. Man's muscle power is rated at 35 watts continuously, or one-twentieth horsepower. Machines therefore furnish every American industrial worker with energy equivalent to that of 244 men, while at least 2,000 men push his automobile along the road, and his family is supplied with 33 faithful household helpers. Each locomotive engineer controls energy equivalent to that of 100,000 men; each jet pilot of 700,000 men. Truly, the humblest American enjoys the services of more slaves than were once owned by the richest nobles, and lives better than most ancient kings. In retrospect, and despite wars, revolutions, and disasters, the hundred years just gone by may well seem like a Golden Age.

Whether this Golden Age will continue depends entirely upon our ability to keep energy supplies in balance with the needs of our growing population. Before I go into this question, let me review briefly the role of energy resources in the rise and fall of civilizations.

Possession of surplus energy is, of course, a requisite for any kind of civilization, for if man possesses merely the energy of his own muscles, he must expend all his strength - mental and physical - to obtain the bare necessities of life.

Surplus energy provides the material foundation for civilized living - a comfortable and tasteful home instead of a bare shelter; attractive clothing instead of mere covering to keep warm; appetizing food instead of anything that suffices to appease hunger. It provides the freedom from toil without which there can be no art, music, literature, or learning. There is no need to belabor the point. What lifted man - one of the weaker mammals - above the animal world was that he could devise, with his brain, ways to increase the energy at his disposal, and use the leisure so gained to cultivate his mind and spirit. Where man must rely solely on the energy of his own body, he can sustain only the most meager existence.

Man's first step on the ladder of civilization dates from his discovery of fire and his domestication of animals. With these energy resources he was able to build a pastoral culture. To move upward to an agricultural civilization he needed more energy. In the past this was found in the labor of dependent members of large patriarchal families, augmented by slaves obtained through purchase or as war booty. There are some backward communities which to this day depend on this type of energy.

Slave labor was necessary for the city-states and the empires of antiquity; they frequently had slave populations larger than their free citizenry. As long as slaves were abundant and no moral censure attached to their ownership, incentives to search for alternative sources of energy were lacking; this may well have been the single most important reason why engineering advanced very little in ancient times.

A reduction of per capita energy consumption has always in the past led to a decline in civilization and a reversion to a more primitive way of life. For example, exhaustion of wood fuel is believed to have been the primary reason for the fall of the Mayan Civilization on this continent and of the decline of once flourishing civilizations in Asia. India and China once had large forests, as did much of the Middle East. Deforestation not only lessened the energy base but had a further disastrous effect: lacking plant cover, soil washed away, and with soil erosion the nutritional base was reduced as well.

Another cause of declining civilization comes with pressure of population on available land. A point is reached where the land can no longer support both the people and their domestic animals. Horses and mules disappear first. Finally even the versatile water buffalo is displaced by man who is two and one half times as efficient an energy converter as are draft animals. It must always be remembered that while domestic animals and agricultural machines increase productivity per man, maximum productivity per acre is achieved only by intensive manual cultivation.

It is a sobering thought that the impoverished people of Asia, who today seldom go to sleep with their hunger completely satisfied, were once far more civilized and lived much better than the people of the West. And not so very long ago, either. It was the stories brought back by Marco Polo of the marvelous civilization in China which turned Europe's eyes to the riches of the East, and induced adventurous sailors to brave the high seas in their small vessels searching for a direct route to the fabulous Orient. The "wealth of the Indies" is a phrase still used, but whatever wealth may be there it certainly is not evident in the life of the people today.

Asia failed to keep technological pace with the needs of her growing populations and sank into such poverty that in many places man has become again the primary source of energy, since other energy converters have become too expensive. This must be obvious to the most casual observer. What this means is quite simply a reversion to a more primitive stage of civilization with all that it implies for human dignity and happiness.

Anyone who has watched a sweating Chinese farm worker strain at his heavily laden wheelbarrow, creaking along a cobblestone road, or who has flinched as he drives past an endless procession of human beasts of burden moving to market in Java - the slender women bent under mountainous loads heaped on their heads - anyone who has seen statistics translated into flesh and bone, realizes the degradation of man's stature when his muscle power becomes the only energy source he can afford. Civilization must wither when human beings are so degraded.

Where slavery represented a major source of energy, its abolition had the immediate effect of reducing energy consumption. Thus when this time-honored institution came under moral censure by Christianity, civilization declined until other sources of energy could be found. Slavery is incompatible with Christian belief in the worth of the humblest individual as a child of God. As Christianity spread through the Roman Empire and masters freed their slaves - in obedience to the teaching of the Church - the energy base of Roman civilization crumbled. This, some historians believe, may have been a major factor in the decline of Rome and the temporary reversion to a more primitive way of life during the Dark Ages. Slavery gradually disappeared throughout the Western world, except in its milder form of serfdom. That it was revived a thousand years later merely shows man's ability to stifle his conscience - at least for a while - when his economic needs are great. Eventually, even the needs of overseas plantation economies did not suffice to keep alive a practice so deeply repugnant to Western man's deepest convictions.

It may well be that it was unwillingness to depend on slave labor for their energy needs which turned the minds of medieval Europeans to search for alternate sources of energy, thus sparking the Power Revolution of the Middle Ages which, in turn, paved the way for the Industrial Revolution of the 19th Century. When slavery disappeared in the West engineering advanced. Men began to harness the power of nature by utilizing water and wind as energy sources. The sailing ship, in particular, which replaced the slave-driven galley of antiquity, was vastly improved by medieval shipbuilders and became the first machine enabling man to control large amounts of inanimate energy.

The next important high-energy converter used by Europeans was gunpowder - an energy source far superior to the muscular strength of the strongest bowman or lancer. With ships that could navigate the high seas and arms that could outfire any hand weapon, Europe was now powerful enough to preempt for herself the vast empty areas of the Western Hemisphere into which she poured her surplus populations to build new nations of European stock. With these ships and arms she also gained political control over populous areas in Africa and Asia from which she drew the raw materials needed to speed her industrialization, thus complementing her naval and military dominance with economic and commercial supremacy.

When a low-energy society comes in contact with a high-energy society, the advantage always lies with the latter. The Europeans not only achieved standards of living vastly higher than those of the rest of the world, but they did this while their population was growing at rates far surpassing those of other peoples. In fact, they doubled their share of total world population in the short span of three centuries. From one sixth in 1650, the people of European stock increased to almost one third of total world population by 1950.

Meanwhile much of the rest of the world did not even keep energy sources in balance with population growth. Per capita energy consumption actually diminished in large areas. It is this difference in energy consumption which has resulted in an ever-widening gap between the one-third minority who live in high-energy countries and the two-thirds majority who live in low-energy areas.

These so-called underdeveloped countries are now finding it far more difficult to catch up with the fortunate minority than it was for Europe to initiate transition from low-energy to high-energy consumption. For one thing, their ratio of land to people is much less favorable; for another, they have no outlet for surplus populations to ease the transition since all the empty spaces have already been taken over by people of European stock.

Almost all of today's low-energy countries have a population density so great that it perpetuates dependence on intensive manual agriculture which alone can yield barely enough food for their people. They do not have enough acreage, per capita, to justify using domestic animals or farm machinery, although better seeds, better soil management, and better hand tools could bring some improvement. A very large part of their working population must nevertheless remain on the land, and this limits the amount of surplus energy that can be produced. Most of these countries must choose between using this small energy surplus to raise their very low standard of living or postpone present rewards for the sake of future gain by investing the surplus in new industries. The choice is difficult because there is no guarantee that today's denial may not prove to have been in vain. This is so because of the rapidity with which public health measures have reduced mortality rates, resulting in population growth as high or even higher than that of the high-energy nations. Theirs is a bitter choice; it accounts for much of their anti-Western feeling and may well portend a prolonged period of world instability.

How closely energy consumption is related to standards of living may be illustrated by the example of India. Despite intelligent and sustained efforts made since independence, India's per capita income is still only 20 cents daily; her infant mortality is four times ours; and the life expectance of her people is less than one half that of the industrialized countries of the West. These are ultimate consequences of India's very low energy consumption: one-fourteenth of world average; one-eightieth of ours.

Ominous, too, is the fact that while world food production increased 9% in the six years from 1945-51, world population increased by 12%. Not only is world population increasing faster than world food production, but unfortunately, increases in food production tend to occur in the already well-fed, high-energy countries rather than in the undernourished, low-energy countries where food is most lacking.

I think no further elaboration is needed to demonstrate the significance of energy resources for our own future. Our civilization rests upon a technological base which requires enormous quantities of fossil fuels. What assurance do we then have that our energy needs will continue to be supplied by fossil fuels: The answer is - in the long run - none.

The earth is finite. Fossil fuels are not renewable. In this respect our energy base differs from that of all earlier civilizations. They could have maintained their energy supply by careful cultivation. We cannot. Fuel that has been burned is gone forever. Fuel is even more evanescent than metals. Metals, too, are non-renewable resources threatened with ultimate extinction, but something can be salvaged from scrap. Fuel leaves no scrap and there is nothing man can do to rebuild exhausted fossil fuel reserves. They were created by solar energy 500 million years ago and took eons to grow to their present volume.

In the face of the basic fact that fossil fuel reserves are finite, the exact length of time these reserves will last is important in only one respect: the longer they last, the more time do we have, to invent ways of living off renewable or substitute energy sources and to adjust our economy to the vast changes which we can expect from such a shift.

Fossil fuels resemble capital in the bank. A prudent and responsible parent will use his capital sparingly in order to pass on to his children as much as possible of his inheritance. A selfish and irresponsible parent will squander it in riotous living and care not one whit how his offspring will fare.

Engineers whose work familiarizes them with energy statistics; far-seeing industrialists who know that energy is the principal factor which must enter into all planning for the future; responsible governments who realize that the well-being of their citizens and the political power of their countries depend on adequate energy supplies - all these have begun to be concerned about energy resources. In this country, especially, many studies have been made in the last few years, seeking to discover accurate information on fossil-fuel reserves and foreseeable fuel needs.

Statistics involving the human factor are, of course, never exact. The size of usable reserves depends on the ability of engineers to improve the efficiency of fuel extraction and use. It also depends on discovery of new methods to obtain energy from inferior resources at costs which can be borne without unduly depressing the standard of living. Estimates of future needs, in turn, rely heavily on population figures which must always allow for a large element of uncertainty, particularly as man reaches a point where he is more and more able to control his own way of life.

Current estimates of fossil fuel reserves vary to an astonishing degree. In part this is because the results differ greatly if cost of extraction is disregarded or if in calculating how long reserves will last, population growth is not taken into consideration; or, equally important, not enough weight is given to increased fuel consumption required to process inferior or substitute metals. We are rapidly approaching the time when exhaustion of better grade metals will force us to turn to poorer grades requiring in most cases greater expenditure of energy per unit of metal.

But the most significant distinction between optimistic and pessimistic fuel reserve statistics is that the optimists generally speak of the immediate future - the next twenty-five years or so - while the pessimists think in terms of a century from now. A century or even two is a short span in the history of a great people. It seems sensible to me to take a long view, even if this involves facing unpleasant facts.

For it is an unpleasant fact that according to our best estimates, total fossil fuel reserves recoverable at not over twice today's unit cost, are likely to run out at some time between the years 2000 and 2050, if present standards of living and population growth rates are taken into account. Oil and natural gas will disappear first, coal last. There will be coal left in the earth, of course. But it will be so difficult to mine that energy costs would rise to economically intolerable heights, so that it would then become necessary either to discover new energy sources or to lower standards of living drastically.

For more than one hundred years we have stoked ever growing numbers of machines with coal; for fifty years we have pumped gas and oil into our factories, cars, trucks, tractors, ships, planes, and homes without giving a thought to the future. Occasionally the voice of a Cassandra has been raised only to be quickly silenced when a lucky discovery revised estimates of our oil reserves upward, or a new coalfield was found in some remote spot. Fewer such lucky discoveries can be expected in the future, especially in industrialized countries where extensive mapping of resources has been done. Yet the popularizers of scientific news would have us believe that there is no cause for anxiety, that reserves will last thousands of years, and that before they run out science will have produced miracles. Our past history and security have given us the sentimental belief that the things we fear will never really happen - that everything turns out right in the end. But, prudent men will reject these tranquilizers and prefer to face the facts so that they can plan intelligently for the needs of their posterity.

Looking into the future, from the mid-20th Century, we cannot feel overly confident that present high standards of living will of a certainty continue through the next century and beyond. Fossil fuel costs will soon definitely begin to rise as the best and most accessible reserves are exhausted, and more effort will be required to obtain the same energy from remaining reserves. It is likely also that liquid fuel synthesized from coal will be more expensive. Can we feel certain that when economically recoverable fossil fuels are gone science will have learned how to maintain a high standard of living on renewable energy sources?

I believe it would be wise to assume that the principal renewable fuel sources which we can expect to tap before fossil reserves run out will supply only 7 to 15% of future energy needs. The five most important of these renewable sources are wood fuel, farm wastes, wind, water power, and solar heat.

Wood fuel and farm wastes are dubious as substitutes because of growing food requirements to be anticipated. Land is more likely to be used for food production than for tree crops; farm wastes may be more urgently needed to fertilize the soil than to fuel machines.

Wind and water power can furnish only a very small percentage of our energy needs. Moreover, as with solar energy, expensive structures would be required, making use of land and metals which will also be in short supply. Nor would anything we know today justify putting too much reliance on solar energy though it will probably prove feasible for home heating in favorable localities and for cooking in hot countries which lack wood, such as India.

More promising is the outlook for nuclear fuels. These are not, properly speaking, renewable energy sources, at least not in the present state of technology, but their capacity to "breed" and the very high energy output from small quantities of fissionable material, as well as the fact that such materials are relatively abundant, do seem to put nuclear fuels into a separate category from exhaustible fossil fuels. The disposal of radioactive wastes from nuclear power plants is, however, a problem which must be solved before there can be any widespread use of nuclear power.

Another limit in the use of nuclear power is that we do not know today how to employ it otherwise than in large units to produce electricity or to supply heating. Because of its inherent characteristics, nuclear fuel cannot be used directly in small machines, such as cars, trucks, or tractors. It is doubtful that it could in the foreseeable future furnish economical fuel for civilian airplanes or ships, except very large ones. Rather than nuclear locomotives, it might prove advantageous to move trains by electricity produced in nuclear central stations. We are only at the beginning of nuclear technology, so it is difficult to predict what we may expect.

Transportation - the lifeblood of all technically advanced civilizations - seems to be assured, once we have borne the initial high cost of electrifying railroads and replacing buses with streetcars or interurban electric trains. But, unless science can perform the miracle of synthesizing automobile fuel from some energy source as yet unknown or unless trolley wires power electric automobiles on all streets and highways, it will be wise to face up to the possibility of the ultimate disappearance of automobiles, trucks, buses, and tractors. Before all the oil is gone and hydrogenation of coal for synthetic liquid fuels has come to an end, the cost of automotive fuel may have risen to a point where private cars will be too expensive to run and public transportation again becomes a profitable business.

Today the automobile is the most uneconomical user of energy. Its efficiency is 5% compared with 23% for the Diesel-electric railway. It is the most ravenous devourer of fossil fuels, accounting for over half of the total oil consumption in this country. And the oil we use in the United States in one year took nature about 14 million years to create. Curiously, the automobile, which is the greatest single cause of the rapid exhaustion of oil reserves, may eventually be the first fuel consumer to suffer. Reduction in automotive use would necessitate an extraordinarily costly reorganization of the pattern of living in industrialized nations, particularly in the United States. It would seem prudent to bear this in mind in future planning of cities and industrial locations.

Our present known reserves of fissionable materials are many times as large as our net economically recoverable reserves of coal. A point will be reached before this century is over when fossil fuel costs will have risen high enough to make nuclear fuels economically competitive. Before that time comes we shall have to make great efforts to raise our entire body of engineering and scientific knowledge to a higher plateau. We must also induce many more young Americans to become metallurgical and nuclear engineers. Else we shall not have the knowledge or the people to build and run the nuclear power plants which ultimately may have to furnish the major part of our energy needs. If we start to plan now, we may be able to achieve the requisite level of scientific and engineering knowledge before our fossil fuel reserves give out, but the margin of safety is not large. This is also based on the assumption that atomic war can be avoided and that population growth will not exceed that now calculated by demographic experts.

War, of course, cancels all man's expectations. Even growing world tension just short of war could have far-reaching effects. In this country it might, on the one hand, lead to greater conservation of domestic fuels, to increased oil imports, and to an acceleration in scientific research which might turn up unexpected new energy sources. On the other hand, the resulting armaments race would deplete metal reserves more rapidly, hastening the day when inferior metals must be utilized with consequent greater expenditure of energy. Underdeveloped nations with fossil fuel deposits might be coerced into withholding them from the free world or may themselves decide to retain them for their own future use. The effect on Europe, which depends on coal and oil imports, would be disastrous and we would have to share our own supplies or lose our allies.

Barring atomic war or unexpected changes in the population curve, we can count on an increase in world population from two and one half billion today to four billion in the year 2000; six to eight billion by 2050. The United States is expected to quadruple its population during the 20th Century - from 75 million in 1900 to 300 million in 2000 - and to reach at least 375 million in 2050. This would almost exactly equal India's present population which she supports on just a little under half of our land area.

It is an awesome thing to contemplate a graph of world population growth from prehistoric times - tens of thousands of years ago - to the day after tomorrow - let us say the year 2000 A.D. If we visualize the population curve as a road which starts at sea level and rises in proportion as world population increases, we should see it stretching endlessly, almost level, for 99% of the time that man has inhabited the earth. In 6000 B.C., when recorded history begins, the road is running at a height of about 70 feet above sea level, which corresponds to a population of 10 million. Seven thousand years later - in 1000 A.D. - the road has reached an elevation of 1,600 feet; the gradation now becomes steeper, and 600 years later the road is 2,900 feet high. During the short span of the next 400 years - from 1600 to 2000 - it suddenly turns sharply upward at an almost perpendicular inclination and goes straight up to an elevation of 29,000 feet - the height of Mt. Everest, the world's tallest mountain.

In the 8,000 years from the beginning of history to the year 2000 A.D. world population will have grown from 10 million to 4 billion, with 90% of that growth taking place during the last 5% of that period, in 400 years. It took the first 3,000 years of recorded history to accomplish the first doubling of population, 100 years for the last doubling, but the next doubling will require only 50 years. Calculations give us the astonishing estimate that one out of every 20 human beings born into this world is alive today.

The rapidity of population growth has not given us enough time to readjust our thinking. Not much more than a century ago our country - the very spot on which I now stand was a wilderness in which a pioneer could find complete freedom from men and from government. If things became too crowded - if he saw his neighbor's chimney smoke - he could, and often did, pack up and move west. We began life in 1776 as a nation of less than four million people - spread over a vast continent - with seemingly inexhaustible riches of nature all about. We conserved what was scarce - human labor - and squandered what seemed abundant - natural resources - and we are still doing the same today.

Much of the wilderness which nurtured what is most dynamic in the American character has now been buried under cities, factories and suburban developments where each picture window looks out on nothing more inspiring than the neighbor's back yard with the smoke of his fire in the wire basket clearly visible.

Life in crowded communities cannot be the same as life on the frontier. We are no longer free, as was the pioneer - to work for our own immediate needs regardless of the future. We are no longer as independent of men and of government as were Americans two or three generations ago. An ever larger share of what we earn must go to solve problems caused by crowded living - bigger governments; bigger city, state, and federal budgets to pay for more public services. Merely to supply us with enough water and to carry away our waste products becomes more difficult and expansive daily. More laws and law enforcement agencies are needed to regulate human relations in urban industrial communities and on crowded highways than in the America of Thomas Jefferson.

Certainly no one likes taxes, but we must become reconciled to larger taxes in the larger America of tomorrow.

I suggest that this is a good time to think soberly about our responsibilities to our descendants - those who will ring out the Fossil Fuel Age. Our greatest responsibility, as parents and as citizens, is to give America's youngsters the best possible education. We need the best teachers and enough of them to prepare our young people for a future immeasurably more complex than the present, and calling for ever larger numbers of competent and highly trained men and women. This means that we must not delay building more schools, colleges, and playgrounds. It means that we must reconcile ourselves to continuing higher taxes to build up and maintain at decent salaries a greatly enlarged corps of much better trained teachers, even at the cost of denying ourselves such momentary pleasures as buying a bigger new car, or a TV set, or household gadget. We should find - I believe - that these small self-denials would be far more than offset by the benefits they would buy for tomorrow's America. We might even - if we wanted - give a break to these youngsters by cutting fuel and metal consumption a little here and there so as to provide a safer margin for the necessary adjustments which eventually must be made in a world without fossil fuels.

One final thought I should like to leave with you. High-energy consumption has always been a prerequisite of political power. The tendency is for political power to be concentrated in an ever-smaller number of countries. Ultimately, the nation which controls the largest energy resources will become dominant. If we give thought to the problem of energy resources, if we act wisely and in time to conserve what we have and prepare well for necessary future changes, we shall insure this dominant position for our own country.

Edit: For those wanting further evidence that this speech was actually given, this is a link to a scanned in version of a Christian Science Monitor article dated June 5, 1957, reporting on the speech.

Congressman Roscoe Bartlett quotes from this speech every time he does one of his special order speeches. Problem is, he seems to be making those speeches to a largely empty room, as can be seen if you watch his most recent long enough. At Energy Policy TV a list of some of his most recent speeches can be found here. In the description of his most recent speech on the Energy Policy TV web site there is a link to Rep. Roscoe Bartlett's web site, where he links to the Rickover speech.

It is sad that this gentleman, whatever his motives, has been trying to raise awareness of these issues for over three years and you still need to make a key post containing this speech. Maybe you could link to this speech in your overview?

Alan from the islands

Maybe you could link to this speech in your overview?

It belongs in the sidebar, defcon 4.

I've read this speech several times and always find myself wondering about Rickover's background and education. Excepting climate change, I don't have any better understanding of Peak Oil and resource depletion now in 2008 than he did 50 years ago. He's clearly made of different stuff than Petraeus or Colin Powell. Probably the times trained and demanded different stuff.

cfm in Gray, ME

Being father of the nuclear navy, he must have had some wits. He is one of those people about whom the term genius actually applies. My definition of a genius is one with extreme intelligence, excellent memory (I console myself with the thought that but for a weak memory... ha-ha...) and the insight to apply them effectively.

I've no doubt of his genius.

Cheers

ccpo -

There is no doubt that Admiral Rickover was a brilliant and highly perceptive man. But he was no angel, either.

He was a master at ruthless bureaucratic in-fighting, was extreme adept at shamelessly cultivating powerful congressmen to ensure generous funding for the Navy's nuclear program. He also had a well-deserved reputation as a vindictive SOB and a real tyrant to work for.

He certainly didn't get to the position he did by being a nice guy. Being a small, scrawny little fellow, and a Jew to boot, must have made for very tough going when he was a midshipman at Annapolis in those less enlightened days.

OK. Does personality have anything to do with genius?

Cheers

The first problem is convincing people that Peak Oil is real.

Then, they must understand that alternative energies will help little and will actually makes matter worse by accelerating oil depletion.

Then, you have to change national policy, but that is determined by constituent and interest group pressures.

Then you have to change international policy. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted. Thus the U.S. cannot conserve its way out of this catastrophe even if every car was permanently parked starting today. The U.S. is 1/4th of the consumption of oil.

A good, decent, and credible member of Congress can only get 15 colleagues to join his Peak Oil caucus. So Bartlett can't even get policymakers to step one.

So goes the Titanic.

The first problem is convincing people that Peak Oil is real.

Once oil production begins to decline it seems that people will be convinced very quickly, albeit belatedly. With a production decline, talk of speculators causing the problem immediately stops. I guess that "above ground factors" can still continue in various forms, but will have to become much more specific and come with an "expiration date" if they are going to continue to promulgate a "late peak oil".

Of course, most everyone has been late to the party including myself and most of the posters on this site. The time to start talking about Peak Oil and solutions was decades ago. I am amazed that Rickover did so so long ago. The economists and financial pundits of the day must laughed at him.

It's amazing how prescient individual human beings can be when counterpointed with how utterly stupidly we behave en masse.

My S-in-L tonight felt obliged to tell my wife she should just defy me on preparations for Peak Oil, AGW, etc., despite the fact my wife and I make all decisions together - so there's nothing to defy - and the S-in-L has never done even the slightest research into any of the issues.

My S-in-L and M-in-L's attitude is: money will solve everything. Just make money!

All this despite living in one of the most vulnerable nations on the planet with regard to energy issues.

Idiots.

Truly, it boggles the mind how willfully blind people choose to be. The above people are educated. They make money. They have no serious wants or needs. Ah, but perhaps that's the problem. Life is like manna from heaven: it just keeps giving.

Grr...

Cheers

It seems like we got a whole package of beliefs when we found that fossil fuels could make life better and better:

1. Things will get better and better forever.
2. If we invest my money properly, we can participate in the ever-increasing prosperity.
3. If we have enough money, all our problems will be solved.
4. We don't really need extended family, because the money we save and government programs will take care of our problems.
5. We don't need traditions any more, because things are changing so much.
6. We don't need churches any more to pass on traditions and belief systems. He who dies with the most toys wins.
7. Television and what it portrays models what our life is about.
8. Parents don't need to educate their children on traditions, values, and what is important. That is the role of schools.
9. It is possible and reasonable to retire at an early age, and expect the money we have saved plus social security to take care of us.

Once we have bought into this belief system, it is very difficult to start thinking in terms of what a declining world is likely to look like. I expect the people with the most money, and the most belief that it will solve all their problems, will be in for the biggest shock.

ON BELIEFS POSITIVE AND OTHERWISE, Health, and my buddy Eeyore.

Gail says,
"It seems like we got a whole package of beliefs when we found that fossil fuels could make life better and better", and then goes on to give a few tenets of said "belief".

This demonstrates the power of "belief" in human thinking and planning. Gail, your points of percieved belief are interesting and valid in many ways, some more than others, but if we are to be fair, we must also give a few opposing points of belief that have sway over human thinking, points that are often seen here on TOD and in many other places. Like your points of what we may call "optimistic belief" or "business as usual" beliefs, some of these "pessimistic" or "business no more" beliefs have a bit of empirical, scientific or factual support, some have less, and some have none at all and are accepted as matters of faith:

1. Things will only get worse from here on.
2. What is the point of investing my money for the future when there is no real future?
3. Money is fiat and fake and economics and investment is a made up scam, so why put any value in it?

(I will skip over the "traditions" part, because these are so personal and so deep to a person and or family that I don't feel comfortable telling others how to conduct themselves in this area)

4. Alternatives to oil and gas are fake, if there was anything better than oil or gas we would have found them and be using them by now.
5. The big technical breakthroughs have all been made, there will be no technical advances forward.
6. Most of these problems are the fault of the United States because we use most of the worlds oil.
7. It is our cars in America that have done this, do away with them and everthing will be fine.
8. One nation can do nothing to help itself, and to think so is nationalist Imperialism, everything must be done at the global level.
9. Schools and colleges with their secular fascination with technical, scientific and economic education offer nothing.
10. Western ideas such as capitalism, private property ownership and individual worth and rights have led us down the false path and are worthless.
11. It is impossible to live a good live and retire based on sound planning and discipline nowadays, those who do it are either crooks or are well connected insiders.
12. The prosperous class will get their comeuppance and suffer, just you wait and see.

Above just a few points of what I call the "Eeyore" philosophy, named after the charming but dark mooded donkey in the "Winnie the Pooh" stories.

For Eeyore, the only philosophy is "woe's me" and "why bother". His one true conviction is that things will get worse before they get better, if they ever get better, and why should I think they would get better?

In the Pooh stories it played in good fun, but if the philosophy is lived out in life on an ongoing basis it can have serious consequences for health and well being, for a person, for a family and for a nation.

Allow me to climb on the soapbox and say to people who have in a certain way become my online friends..."FRIENDS, think about your thinking! Can you continue on in a life of dispair? Can you carry the burden of the world friends? Can you blame yourself and your nation for EVERYTHING? Can you live in self loathing of the nation and the culture that created you?" I have BEEN THERE brothers and sisters, ohhh, have I been there! Take charge of your life and LIVE!"

That was in fun, a bit of spoof of the old Southern preachers I grew up around, but seriously...

You do have to think of your own health. Living in desolation and despiar is painful, it hurts. It is bad for the health. And when enough people do it, it is bad for the nation.

You do have to think of your own finances. I know that many here believe things are going to get worse and worse and worse to infinity, but you must be ready, because...what if they don't? And if they do, do you believe that your personal financial situation will not matter? I know people in the financial community, and some who can HONESTLY say "so if gasoline goes to $10 a gallon, I can live with that. I wouldn't want to pay that, but I could."

The reason they can say this is because they invested against all advice in the 1970's in the darker years when many did not. In a certain way, their investment was an act of faith. It could have went the other way. If I invest today in the future, will it pay off? There is NO GUARANTEE, but there never has been! But if paper money goes to garbage and economy fails completely as some predict, why would I want the paper junk anyway? I might as well try to leverage it!

One more little thing I did not mention above about matters of "faith". In the last several weeks I have heard more and more people falling back on the authority of "physics" to justify their gloom. Physics is now used in the same way the Word of the Lord was once used as in "but the Lord says..." In very many cases, if a person actually bothered to try, they could find no evidence that the Lord said any such thing, at least not in any Holy Writ known to humankind. Such it is with physics, where it sounds like Richard Dawson on the old "Family Feud" game show..."SURVEY SAYS!"..."PHYSICS SAYS!"...

When we invoke the Holy Word of Physics, we are not saying something may be difficult to do, or that something may be expensive to do, or that something may need much brainpower and effort to do, we are essentially invoking the very Word of Physics to say it can or cannot be done.

So in the case of energy, I will close with a link to one of my favorite illustrations, this one I found here at TOD...PHYSICS SAYS!...
http://greyfalcon.net/energy2.png
Now CHEER UP, we have work to do!

Roger Conner Jr.
RC

Roger,

In response to the graphic reference at the end of your post, I assume that the inference is that of an overlooked salvation, that an ample, sweet, ripe fruit is dangling right in front of us and we fail to see it.

The catch is that fossil fuels, coal, oil, and methane, all came to us in the wondrous wrapper of a 'battery' - concentrated energy stored and ready for release and use on demand.

Sunshine is delightful in the moment, but needs copious amounts of oil to retain it's usefulness for a rainy day.

And the subtext of that graphic is "don't worry, be happy" there's plenty out there and more where that came from and somebody will figure out how to tap it out, so just be happy.
Just what the cornucopians want to hear so they can tell us the American lifestyle is not negotiable and keep on with business as usual.
I have been reading Kevin Phillips about late stage empires and I rather doubt we are capable of the clarity Rickover shows, who lived at a time of Peak Empire.
The grandchildren of peak empire just want to suck their thumbs, hold on to whatever serves as blanky, and just be happy. Make big bad peak everything go away.
When a presidential candidate mocks the other one for a serious energy conservation recomendation and wants to enter his wife in a Miss Buffalo Chip topless contest...I'd say we are in full descent.

"In response to the graphic reference at the end of your post, I assume that the inference is that of an overlooked salvation, that an ample, sweet, ripe fruit is dangling right in front of us and we fail to see it."

I would argue that I did not intend to infer that it is "dangling right in front of us" in the way you are saying. But it is in front of us. Whether we are clever enough to scale it and use to anywhere near it's potential is the question that remains unanswered.

As for the "copious amounts of oil" required to devolop and exploit solar power (and other renewables such as wind, geothermal, tide, etc.), "copious" is a relative term. We burn "copious" amounts of oil with no hope of a return. How much oil has been used in the construction of Beijing roads and skyscrapers in the last ten years?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/06/som_skyscrapers/image/cwtc_beiji...

http://www.nancyliu.com/images/beijing_Night-time.jpg

Or Dubai?

http://www.tourismzone.com/photos/middleeast/united-arab-emirates/dubai/...

http://www.funonthenet.in/images/stories/forwards/dubai%20projects/Burj%...

Manmade islands create the map of the world:
http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/living/dubai/images/the_world/the_wo...

Manmade islands palm:
http://funkyuncensored.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dubai-palm-island.jpg

http://homesgofast.com/UserFiles/dubai-property.jpg

"Copious" amounts of oil, steel, aluminum, concrete, coppoer,glass, and other resources are used all over the world everyday for projects that offer no hope of energy return, only the assurance of more energy consumption. "Copious" amounts of money are also poured into these projects. It is fascinating that financing and materials can be found for these often questionable projects, but is always short for renewable energy production.

My point in using the illustration was this: When people tell you that we only have "X" amount of barrels, BTU's, kilowatts, Joules, or whatever way you want to measure it of energy left, and then we are "out", it's all over, it's done, civilization is finished, and THEN claim the supoport of "physics" to make these claims, I know they are most certainly not correct, and I don't care what value is assigned to "X".

It is with great sadness and discomfort that I have seen people using almost any "fact" they want to use, and then claiming science and physics support these so called "facts". It is known that many people will not bother to question these "facts" if science is invoked, or may not even know how to begin to question them. It is preying on the scientific illiteracy of the public.

I make my living at this time by employment in the market and media survey business. I assure you that if you showed most people the illustration I used at the end of my post, they simply would not believe it. They have been told for years that alternative energy, especially solar, is "pie in the sky", "marginal" and far too expensive to ever be useful. I have heard folks right her on this board attempt to ridicule and humiliate anyone who discusses alternatives with comparisons to "getting methane from the moon of Saturn". We are now teaching our children in peak oil presentations that alternatives are a "myth". It causes us to question why such a relentless attack on alternative programs is felt to be needed at a time when the cost of extracting oil and gas is going nowhere but up?

So be it. But I still have the ability to ask questions, to check underlying assumptions. I am sure not going to destroy my mind and my investments with unwarrented assumptions that cannot be proven in any way. Yes, we face a crisis, yes we need to change and no, the changes are not being made fast enough.

But some of the attacks on the alternatives are utterly outragous. Right here on this string for example cjwirth says:

"No, I'm scared too, because I know what the impacts of oil depletion will look like and that alternative energies policies will accelerate oil depletion and demonstrate that humans are not smarter than yeast."

With the exception of biofuels such as ethanol, I ask for any evidence that alternative energies increase oil depletion. ANY.

I will not become a defeatist and destroy my own health and my ability to enjoy life based on such nonsense (and I do not fault cj, what he is saying is said so often that has become mantra that no one even bothers to question), and I question the wisdom of anyone who does.

RC

Roger,

I don't wish to suppress your hope and enthusiasm. I just believe the graphic to be misleading.

The operative word in the big yellow orb is "available", which is quite different from "operational".

From CNN, October 2007:

"According to the BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2007, solar, wind and geothermal combined only account for around 1 percent of the world's electricity generation, with the International Energy Agency (IEA) putting solar power's contribution to the global energy supply at just 0.039 percent. In the United States, solar power meets less than 0.01 percent of electricity needs, according to the Los Angeles Times."

Let's double the estimations above just to cover the possibility of bias or misreporting. Regardless, the resulting large yellow circle is now less than a dot, so small that it is not visible on the scale of the graphic.

I make PO presentations and I do my darnedest to minimize the doom factor. But are we really doing people a service by offering up a hope which may not be intrinsically false, but is inherently unreasonable or impractical?

Regarding: "With the exception of biofuels such as ethanol, I ask for any evidence that alternative energies increase oil depletion. ANY."

Every alternative incarnation hastens the depletion of energy by the very nature of the pursuit. A photovoltaic device is but oil in another form. Scrambling for replacements accelerates the inevitable, and only serves to soothe and console those living in this moment. My children, and especially my grandchildren, deserve some measured constraint.

We have to embrace the only true long-term solution: power down, get small, go slow, simplify,...just get by. In time, it will be forced upon us anyway.

Peace to you -

damfino,

First to your point "The operative word in the big yellow orb is "available", which is quite different from "operational".

True, but of course nothing except raw nature is operational unless humans make it so. Coal, oil and gas are "operational" because a century and a half of decisions, investment and mental and physical effort made them so. It may be noticed that nature does not seem to exist to provide us with the energy we need. We have to extract it ourselves. So it is true for all creatures. In this, oil and gas have little advantage compared to any other energy source except that they are relatively heavily concentrated stores of energy (which can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the structure built to deal with them) and they are portable IF the infrasture is built to make them so, which took decades of intellectual and financial development.

To your reference to the BP Statistical Review and the low amount of energy produced by the renewables, this is absolutely true. The world produces barely as much energy by way of renewables as a percent of all energy consumed as it did in the 1970's. It is not "physics" that dicates this, but simply an almost complete stoppage of development of the renewables for almost three decades. The lack of renewables in energy production is simply a lack of will.

To your more interesting point, "Every alternative incarnation hastens the depletion of energy by the very nature of the pursuit. A photovoltaic device is but oil in another form."

First I am assuming you meant "Every alternative incarnation hastens the depletion of energy" was actually intended to mean "hastens the depletion of oil" or perhaps fossil fuel, because to call a photovoltaic device "but oil in another form" is almost certainly a bit of an overreach. It may involve some oil in it's construction, and or some natural gas, and or some nuclear, hydroelectric or coal. Of course the nuclear, hydroelectric or coal may have some oil in it's extraction/construction, and the food eaten by the workers that built the hydro or the nuclear plant may have some been produced by using some oil and on and on...this is the way in which EROEI is used against the alternatives to the point of infinite regression.

So based on this logic, would we say that no energy producing devices such as solar panels, windmills, or Concentrating Mirror Solar stations should be built, because they do indeed consume some resources?

If that is true, should we not forbid the construction of energy consuming devices such as autos, TV sets, home computers, cell phones, motorcycles, speedboats, washing machines, clothes dryers, on and on and on before we stop the production of energy producing devices such as solar panels, concentrating mirror solar stations and windmills? Do you honestly see that happening in the world? It would mean suicide for whole nations such as Japan, the U.S. and European nations to do so, and do we assume that the newly arrived developing nations would do likewise?

You say,
"My children, and especially my grandchildren, deserve some measured constraint." Is it "measured constraint" to cease the development of energy returning devices while continuing to build energy consuming devices? Because I assure you, even if the U.S. decided to assinate it's economy by taking the ascetic road to building nothing, many other nations would not.

You say,
"We have to embrace the only true long-term solution: power down, get small, go slow, simplify,...just get by. In time, it will be forced upon us anyway."

I think that we should reduce waste to the absolute minimum, yes. I beliew that we can afford in many cases to "go smaller". It used to be called "appropriate scale". Simple where possible is good. But there is a limit to how little we can use before we cease to exist as a culture. There is a reason far exceeding convenience that interstate highways were built, that a national electric grid was built, that a national phone system and internet was built.

Alvin Toffler once pointed out that speed of communication, travel and change are important deciders in the survival of a culture. Go too fast, and the culture flies apart. Go too slow, and it declines into oblivion, unable to retain cohesiveness, soon to be overrun by powers that continue to develop technically, culturally and intellectually. Those cultures that choose to "just get by" do not. They die.

To return to your point about the energy used to construct the renewables, I often ask people a challenging question: Do you believe that the first oil well was built using oil? Do you believe that the first natural gas well was built using natural gas? Do you believe that the first nuclear power plant was built using nuclear power? Does that make sense? Then why would such a standard be placed on the renewables? It is totally non-sensical.

I had on my other now failed computer a photo that was so charming to me, I kept it on my desktop to look at every now and then: It was a photo of an oil hauling ship, from the earliest days of the oil industry. It was not a tanker, in that the oil was still hauled in barrels, loaded by hand from wagons drawn by horses.

The ship was powered by sail.

RC

My point in using the illustration was this: When people tell you that we only have "X" amount of barrels, BTU's, kilowatts, Joules, or whatever way you want to measure it of energy left, and then we are "out", it's all over, it's done, civilization is finished, and THEN claim the supoport of "physics" to make these claims, I know they are most certainly not correct, and I don't care what value is assigned to "X".

It is with great sadness and discomfort that I have seen people using almost any "fact" they want to use, and then claiming science and physics support these so called "facts". It is known that many people will not bother to question these "facts" if science is invoked, or may not even know how to begin to question them. It is preying on the scientific illiteracy of the public.

You are ignoring several very simple and very obvious points that go along with the generalizations you are making: how many people see only collapse, and fire and brimstone collapse, too? How many see that collapse as permanent? How many see a potential collapse as leading to rebirth?

As for the energy, you know well that the issue is not the amount of energy in the system, it is how it is used, how quickly it can be utilized and whether a transition will be smooth or not.

Again, you are caricaturing people, not being objective or fair.

Cheers

I'm not sure who you are directing this to or trying to describe. I don't know anyone who thinks the way you describe, not even here on TOD. I think you have over-generalized some valid complaints and some currently true realities to equal value systems. A few examples.

1. Things will only get worse from here on.
Does anyone believe this is true for every person? However, given the convergence of AGW, economic downturn/collapse, political instability (and outright fraud) and energy decline, it is a safe bet that for some period of time things will get worse for most, is it not? But even then, how many of those who post here think the downturn will be permanent?

2. What is the point of investing my money for the future when there is no real future?
This is a valid question as regards BAU on two levels: this downturn could be very, very long. A prudent investor has to consider that. Those that are certain of it absolutely should act in that way. But your post hints at these things being invalid. How so?

3. Money is fiat and fake and economics and investment is a made up scam, so why put any value in it?

Absolutely. If you feel that the fiat/fractional banking system is a source of many of our problems, why would you support it? That's just intelligent action based on your understanding of the current system.

Etc. So, I find your analysis typically shallow as it lies on a base of caricatures of real issues.

Cheers

ccpo says "So, I find your analysis typically shallow as it lies on a base of caricatures of real issues."

I can only ask, and I will let you be the judge, do you feel that my "caricatures" of many peoples views was a greater caricature than Gail the Actuary's portrayal of the views of many Americans that I was replying to?

I have great respect for Gail. Based on my reading of her material, she has a mind like a steel trap, clever and smart. But in this case, I felt compelled to answer in defense of the American people and the American culture at large.

There is a point at which the continual attacks on everything the American culture, and in fact much of Western culture has been built around will be answered.

It is fascinating to see that in every nation that the possibility of living a materially better and more comfortable life with more variety of experience is offered, the opportunity is taken up with great zeal. It is the Americans however who are portrayed as "greedy" and ignorant, as some type of materialistic yahoos for taking advantage of what technology and economic development have offered them.

Yes, we have many excesses, some of them almost idiotic if you really look at them. But are we more prone to excess than the human race at large? Are we more prone to believe that with effort and planning we can continue to live well than humans at large? Are we more prone to walk away from our "traditions" when offered the goodies that modernism brings than humans at large? I would say these points are very arguable.

On the issue of fractional banking, fiat money, etc., you ask, "If you feel that the fiat/fractional banking system is a source of many of our problems, why would you support it?"

Simple: Because it has supported me, and it has supported hundreds of millions of people in the developed countries in achieving a standard of living unheard of in human history.

I have known people who had "no faith" in investing, in financial planning, in economics all my life. These people are now into middle age or older, and they are bitter and angry. How is it that the system seems to have worked for those who did invest, who did plan, who did diversify? They now see their old classmates and friends taking vacations, living well, and worrying far less about every one penny move in gasoline prices. These people did not as you say "support" the core tenets of the economic system or the ideas of prudent investment and planning, so now the system does not support them. Now they want to feel bitter and picked upon. It was their choice.

Economics is a social science. If you want to extract the advantage from it, you must study it and make sound choices based upon what you learn. The same is true with opera, with art, with NFL Football and with culture in general, and with any other pursuit that is "fiat" and man made. Almost all human activities except maybe sex and death are man made. Our ability to enhance everything we do by way of "fiat" activities is what makes us human. We even try to find ways to dress sex up. In the physical reality, a whore, a princess or a supermodel all function exactly the same. It is culture, the attachment of "fiat" cultural values that make one experience more valued or thrilling than the other.

It is o.k. to laugh at "fiat" currency. Just don't be angry when you see your friends who accepted the value of culturally valued money going on vacations, living in comfortable homes, going out with high maintainence women and wearing nice clothes and jewels that look anything but "fiat". :-)

RC

"Just don't be angry when you see your friends who accepted the value of culturally valued money going on vacations, living in comfortable homes, going out with high maintainence women and wearing nice clothes and jewels that look anything but "fiat". :-)

Yes. But is it not likely that fiat currency is yet another artefact of massive use of fossil energy? It only represents the expectation of future riches that will be gained by exercising the option to go on burning up as cheaply as possible the one-off legacy of oil, gas, coal, etc.

As Rickover said:

Fossil fuels resemble capital in the bank. A prudent and responsible parent will use his capital sparingly in order to pass on to his children as much as possible of his inheritance. A selfish and irresponsible parent will squander it in riotous living and care not one whit how his offspring will fare.

All that's happened in the last 30 years is that the world has partied on as if the sharp warning of the 1970s never happened. Now there is a need to do what we could have done earlier, only now it will have to be done with less energy and with a far bigger millstone round our neck in terms of massive, energy-intensive, highly interlinked infrastructure to support. Annoyingly, a great deal of that infrastructure is only there in order to peddle worthless junk to the many so that the few can enjoy their fiat money, vacations and high-maintenance women.

I can only ask, and I will let you be the judge, do you feel that my "caricatures" of many peoples views was a greater caricature than Gail the Actuary's portrayal of the views of many Americans that I was replying to?

By far. Your list was full of things I don't see many saying, except maybe cjw. Her list was full of things I actually see and hear all the time. I have yet to speak to someone not a participant on these forums who actually thinks collapse is even *possible,* let alone at all likely.

I felt compelled to answer in defense of the American people and the American culture at large.

And that was your first mistake. From a certain perspective, the US experiment has been a grand adventure. From another - or virtually any other - it is going to end up an abysmal failure. It's kind of like we built the fastest car in the world and promptly ran it into a cliff wall on the first run across the salt flats.

We have raped the planet and are the second-most responsible, after Britain, for the killing of the ecosystem we live in. We will surpass them in time, I'd guess. Then China will pass us. Then everyone dies.

Yes, that's success.

It is the Americans however who are portrayed as "greedy" and ignorant, as some type of materialistic yahoos for taking advantage of what technology and economic development have offered them.

You're just taking it all personally. It's not personal. We have been profligate and must shoulder blame. You are simply trying to rationalize this away.

Simple: Because it has supported me, and it has supported hundreds of millions of people in the developed countries in achieving a standard of living unheard of in human history.

I guess I must point out the oft-repeated FACT: Most industrialized nations, particularly the US, do not, in fact, score higher on scales of satisfaction and happiness. Period. Material goods and their possession do not equal happiness or a high standard of living.

Had we lived sustainably on the earth up to now, sitting on your ass in front of an HD TV would never have been thought a good standard of living. People would, perhaps, actually spend time together.

Even if not, had we modernized sustainably, I have no doubt most would be happier and healthier. Regardless, what we have now is suicide, so it's not something to celebrate.

I have known people who had "no faith" in investing, in financial planning, in economics all my life... Now they want to feel bitter and picked upon. It was their choice.

And, in the end, they didn't consume as much and helped slow the rush over the cliff. In the end, they will be thankful of their lack of participation. You are looking at things only as they are and in a perspective based on BAII (Business as it is) which is not a legitimate way to go about this. The issue is what is happening now and what is coming. Again, you can't claim victory for "The American Way" if humanity ends up dust as a result.

It is o.k. to laugh at "fiat" currency. Just don't be angry when you see your friends who accepted the value of culturally valued money going on vacations, living in comfortable homes, going out with high maintainence women and wearing nice clothes and jewels that look anything but "fiat". :-)

Did you not pay any attention at all to what Gail and I said?

I don't laugh at fiat currencies, I retch at them. They are inherently evil and were considered so for most of human history, and with reason: they are part of what creates inequality among people. The money changers were chased out of the temple for a reason: they are leeches. I don't mean that figuratively. They literally suck the wealth out of others.

As for the rest, please. What a perfect snapshot of what I find most disgusting about profit as the basis of human activity. Profligate spending with zero regard for fellow beings or the future generations.

I and mine are quite happy, thank you, without a yacht to play on.

You should know better than to taunt a teacher - at least one who loves what he does - with material bull excrement.

Cheers

Well said, RC. While the posts on TOD offer insightful analysis of energy and peak oil issues, I find that many of the comments dwell excessively on negativity.

At the end of the day, things are usually neither as good as they seem at the top, nor as bad as they seem at the bottom.

https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/239193.pdf

The graph on page 5, previously posted by Kiashu here, http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3697#comment-312235 ,
shows that the US could reduce its per capita energy consumption by 70% while still maintaining an excellent quality of life (and functioning industrial economy).

Do the doomers out there really think that it's impossible for all of the renewable (plus nuclear) choices out there to meet 30% of today's energy production?