Report from 33d Intl. Geology Congress in Norway (By Charlie Hall)

Below is an email sent by Professor Charles Hall from SUNY-Syracuse detailing his recent trip to an international Geology conference in Norway. Though written for his friends and colleagues, I thought the details and insights he shared from his trip to Norway would be worth sharing with the TOD readership, particularly the comments on peak oil and climate change. Charlie also tells me he has a new paper published next week on EROI economics which I will format and post here.

Report from 33d International Geology Congress

(or far more than you want to know about geology meetings and Norway)

Charles A. S. Hall

I was invited to attend present at a plenary session of the above meeting in Oslo Norway and since they paid for my flight, a week's hotel in Oslo, the meeting registration and some incidentals I decided to go. My wife Myrna came with me and we have now been in Norway for about two weeks. If you are interested in the details of this huge meeting you can go to www.33igc.org. This report is one person's summary of a number of issues.

1) The meeting was huge (6,500 papers, usually a dozen congruent sessions at any one time). I was initially attracted to the idea of speaking before 6000 geologists from 170 countries) but in fact there were a dozen sessions even during most plenaries so there was in fact maybe 200 at my session, which was not bad by most de facto plenary standards.

2) The sessions were at Lillestrom, about 15 minutes by fast train from downtown Oslo. Given the size of the meeting the organization was superb, except that it was necessary to know in advance, which few people did, how to read the "roadmaps" to find the sessions either conceptually or physically. I found myself each evening reading all titles trying to find those that were interesting to me.

3) Most sessions were about the minutia of a very diverse and well established field. These were usually less interesting to me than the titles led me to believe, but a few were great. This is as usual with any meeting. I had lots of fun meeting people from all over he world with a common interesting science.

4) Each day had a plenary session of general interest: biodiversity, climate, mineral abundance, energy etc. I stayed all day in the climate and energy sessions (I gave a paper in the latter, and asked many questions, as usual), and much of the minerals.

5) It became clear that most geologists are not particularly interested professionally in oil or minerals except as they may provide funds for their own research. On the other hand a lot of geological research was very well funded compared to what I am used to seeing --- obviously society has a direct interest in funding geology, unlike lots of other sciences, because money can be made from its activity, due to direct or indirect application of the results.

6) I went to excellent (although perhaps predicable, although for this "new" audience that is fine) papers by Colin Campbell and Jean Laherrere, and spent a lot of great time with them at the meetings and dinners. I was pleased to see how relaxed and funny Jean was, something I had not seen before. To my amazement here was Colin Campbell, maybe with one of the world's most important geological ideas, and only 30 people were at his session! Likewise Jean. The general community of geologists do not have a clue about peak oil. They may not have their head stuck in the sand, but they do appear to have their head stuck in the rocks!

7) The two best papers (in my opinion at least) I went to were each in the smaller sessions, not the plenary, which were often rather broad, not especially new to me and often extremely contentious. The ones I particularly liked were by Jim Harris who spoke about making a model of oil formation, or rather the formation of the potential for source rocks (vs the "trap rocks" that collect perhaps one percent of the oil that is formed and that serve as our oil sources. This model was a marvelous "systems" project and included continental drift, paleoclimate driven by the British Hadley climate model, paleo ocean currents and so on all of which would generate better or worse conditions for river runoff (with nutrients and sediments, in turn influencing phytoplankton production) , benthic oxygen levels and so on (I learned that absolute anoxia is not needed to form oil but low oxygen levels is), and temperatures (you need at least 15 C, thus Harris believes that much of the arctic -- where not continentally drifted -- will not produce too much oil). Then he ran a dynamic simulation from say 150 to 90 million years ago (when most oil was formed) with continents tooling around the world, climates warming and cooling, precipitating and not, rivers washing nutrients and sediments around and so on, phytoplankton blooming or not and settling into ocean basins etc. etc. The end result was the formation of the percent carbon in the sediments, and then these were oxidized or not, or washed away by ocean currents or not. All very complex but presented with beautiful dynamic software. He then predicted where the oil would be in e.g. Northern South America, and compared that with where in fact we have found it. Assuming he has not cheated (I am pretty sure he has not) it was a VERY impressive presentation with a wonderful "systems" view and wonderful 3 and 4D graphics. C. Fratelli and others in this session also gave very interesting presentations.

8) The second really impressive presentation for me was by Paul Nadeau. I was sitting next to Colin Campbell and Jean Laherrere and Colin said "Watch this, this will be great" and afterwards Jean said "That was truly wonderful (as did Charlie). His paper was about the "golden zone", a layer in the earth characterized by temperatures of from 60 to 120 degrees C within which 90+ percent of oil has been found and 80 plus percent of gas. But this layer is found at different depths, deeper (?4000 meters) in the North Sea and shallower at (1000 M ) off of, for example, Mumbai, India. Most of the exploration and test drilling near Mumbai (or Bombay) was at the wrong depth, too deep! (Although I don't know why they did not hit oil on the way down). This shows clearly that we have explored most of the "sweet spots" in the earth -- not by understanding the golden zone concept but empirically-- and is I think further evidence that we are unlikely to find too much additional oil by e.g. drilling deeper where we have already found oil. The paper was clear, critically important, extremely interesting and I though beautifully presented.

9) The plenaries, especially the climate session and somewhat the energy sessions, were designed for a more general scientific audience. They tended to be moderately interesting, optimistic about resources and technology and often extremely contentious. About two thirds of the presenters and question-askers were hostile to, even dismissive of, the IPCC (International panel on climate change) and the idea that the Earth's climate was responding to human influences. This was rather shocking to me who knows of several other such scientists but had no idea there were so many. They talked about Milankovich Cycles of course, but also sunspot cycles and other possible climate forcings. These were linked to some pretty bizarre (to me) ways of influencing the climate: e.g. making cloud condensation nuclei through ionizing radiation from sun spots or slowing or speeding the Earth's rate of spin in response to cosmic rays. These were apparently very serious scientists but presented far more correlation than clear and convincing mechanism, at least I thought. An atmospheric physicist sitting next to me said that there was no correlation between cosmic rays and clouds as he had made all the measurements. The IPCC folks were adamant that there model was built on first principles, could reproduce past changes in climate and was making proper predictions. The plenary had at the end a "debate" but it was really two ships passing in the might---each side presented its arguments –usually using different types of logic, often arrogantly, and said the other side could not possible be right. The moderators could have done us all a service by guiding the debate to specific issues "what do each of you think about sun spot correlations even when their effect appears trivial" but that did not happen.

10) I could not at first figure out why there was so much hostility between the two climate groups. At first I thought it empiricists vs modelers, although each group was somewhat mixed. Then I concluded that it is the geologists, used to studying constant climate change over very long time periods of Earth's history, who think that basically the climate of the earth is always changing due to various forcings, and what's the big deal now? The IPCCers respond that the Earth has never seen CO2 levels such as we are headed for and that the CO2 changes produce a strong enough signal to change the climate. And on and on. John Holdren has recently prepared a point by point response to the anti IPCCers which I will try to send out. Then we can expect a rebuttal to that and so on.

11) The mineral and energy plenaries were mostly about how although there were some serious supply issues that new technologies were finding marvelous new reserves of copper, oil (except there were no new fields named) and so on. Each presenter tended to argue that all we needed was more money for geological exploration, more or fewer free markets, even higher prices and so on. The only real antidote to this, other than good presentations such as by Jeremy Leggett on climate impacts and the need for solar, was Charlie's arguments that most of this new technology was extraordinarily energy intensive (arctic minerals for one example) so that it did not matter how much e.g. oil was left in the ground because we were relatively rapidly approaching the point where it took a barrel of oil to find and develop a barrel of oil. Similar arguments are applicable to finding the next ton of copper and so on. While no one countered these arguments and all agreed that the dollar cost of producing energy and other minerals was escalating rapidly it was clear that most were so brainwashed to think in terms of monetary costs few thought much about energy costs and few thought of them as having profound limiting consequences. I thought my own talk was pretty good but rushed as a half hour was not enough time (or I should have had fewer slides). The same talk, given a week later at the University of Bergen to a graduate student and professor audience at their institute of Systems Dynamics (a very cool place) went much better as I had time to develop the concepts better. But a fair number of people at the conference came up to me after words and thanked me for a needed, fresh or different approach different from most of the tenor of the meeting. I will mail out a paper related to this talk very soon as it has just been published.



Bergen, Norway

NORWAY

After the meeting my wife and I tool an extremely nice trip from Oslo to Myrdahl to Flam (one of the worlds incredible train journeys for sure to a place far into the fjord called Fjaerland (also known as Mundal and from which Vice President Mondale's ancestors once came). We took the glacier bus tour (my wife models glaciers and yes, Jostedalsbreen too, Europe's largest, is melting back in recent years and a whole lot since 1900). I then had a marvelous half day trout fishing with Ivar. Then the next day we climbed to the top (sort of) of a 1000 meter mountain and today I can hardly walk. We also visited the Viking ship and polar exploration museums in Oslo and the glacier museum in Fjaerland and all were amazing to see. Probably the glacier museum was the very best as you went form room to room representing different past epochs of the region.

In all of this travel I was very impressed with what a difference petroleum makes to Norway. In the fjords the grass -> sheep or grass-> cattle link was key to any productivity now or in the past (excluding the phytoplankton -> fish chains). The areas along the steep fjords where grass could be grown were usually very very limited, as were the grazing animals. I watched in Fjaerland as two farmers with two medium sized specialized tractors took previously-cut hay, rolled them up into big round bales, and then with a different tractor wrapped them in plastic with a touch of a button. I compared this with the procedures given in a book my wife was reading ("Out stealing horses") and the pictures in an exhibition of photographs from the turn of the last century by Knud Knudson where entire families were out piling hay on wooden racks to dry. I thought those two farmers in an hour probably put up more hay for the winter than a whole family would in a summer in 1900. We also had gone to the Viking ship exhibition in Oslo and I guess you could see why the became raiders because the land was so un productive. But a thousand years ago Vikings became Christians, stopped raiding and have been extremely peaceful since. I, who usually think that religion leads to wars, had to see this as an important counter example to my usual thoughts. Finally we went to Bergen which may be the most beautiful city we have seen. In contrast to Oslo which has ugly new buildings on the waterfront Bergen keeps its city core mostly the old Hanseatic buildings or 18th century lovely housing. The people at the Systems dynamics program of the University were very welcoming and seemed to respond well to the same lecture I gave at the geologists meeting. Both Myrna and I found Norway an extremely lovely, civilized and interesting place to visit, the only problem being that everything is two to three times the price of the equivalent in the U.S. BUT, although beers in a restaurant were eleven dollars the students in the Systems Dynamics program, whether from Norway, the developing world or even my own former students Billy and Bobby, pay NO tuition. Maybe that makes a lot of sense.

Charlie

If a group of geologists don´t get peak oil what chance does the rest of the world have? Any chance that this is one of those instances where it is difficult to see the truth if you are being paid not to see it?

Geologists are just humans like you. The rational brain is but a veneer over the more simian.

We are, by training and temperament, inclined to look at the long view. Likewise, we geologists still regard catastrophism as suspect despite all the catastrophes revealed in the geologic record.

Uniformitarianism...it's the law.

At least for peak oil, shortages will be felt in the marketplace. The apparent ignorance of much of the geological community will change in the face of facts on the ground. As for the quack science, the more exposure these theories get the more effort is directed at proving them wrong - if they are. Even addressing climate change is not hopeless. Who would have believed 5 years ago that Americans would drive less in 2008.

The geologists without a clue are likely caught up in the minutia of their individual research and lives. Grants to apply for, papers to write, post docs to beat, seminars to fly to, deans to please, mates and family that need at least 5 minutes a day of attention... they are victims of their own little rat races.

They will become MUCH more interested in peak oil when the symptoms start affecting them personally like all the other stupid bipedal apes on the planet.

Geologists don't get a lot of things. Most of them still think that continents "tool around the earth". I guess they believe that the pangean earth, when viewed from space, was a big blue eyeball with a brown / green iris. I can't help but laugh every time I try to visualize it. It's so absurd the things that supposedly educated people believe.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B776B41EB68F12C1

Most geologists also maintain the obviously erroneous notion that the earth spins West to East. LOL!

Let me guess... you watched the video for 5 seconds and determined that because an animation of a globe was spinning in the "wrong" direction, it must mean that the whole thing is bogus. This is typical of the kind of nonsensical nitpicking attacks on Samuel Warren Carey's work. Talk about missing the point...

Never seen that before.

I understand that the theory of how it happened may not yet be fully worked out, but that is some pretty compelling video.

If I were coming at the problem with fresh eyes and compared the two theories, I would say the expanding earth theory wins round 1.

Fascinating.

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_earth_theory

Please tell me you posted this link as a joke.

Well, I've spent a few hours that I don't have refreshing myself on basic geology and won't spend more time on it.

Reminded me of the process I went through learning about peak oil, but in this case I'm not so interested to follow it all the way through.

Normally I give these theories a fair hearing (like the free energy ones) because I don't think we're at the end of instances where we are collectively completely wrong about certain commonly held beliefs. (As people on this site can attest to.)

When someone says 'all of science needs to be overthrown if you accept my assertion,' that's usually a red flag for me that extra scrutiny is needed, though.

I've seen it before a hundred times. The knee jerk mentality portrayed above. "Surely you must be joking! Yuck. Yuck. Yuck. But I'm not going to take 30 minutes to actually examine the evidence in an intellectually honest manner."

It takes great confidence to put yourself out on a limb to say that a whole branch of science is wrong. But if people did not do this, then we would still be arguing about the earth being flat. The evidence for expansion tectonics, or torsional tectonics, is overwhelming. The fact that it is relegated into perpetual obscurity speaks volumes about the level of control and indoctrination in western culture.

There are so many arguments against the "expanding earth" hypothesis that it's hardly worth starting.

However, in case other readers are wondering about a simple counter-argument, the enormous variation in the age of the major parts of the continents (e.g. North American cratons, colour-coded below) is completely unexplained by an "expanding earth".

I found the videos fascinating if rather uninformative as they did not specify what the 'simple rules' were by which the fits were made.
Without that information it is impossible to determine how good the fit really is, or if liberties have been taken.

One thing which immediately occurs is that if the oceans are only 180 million or so years old, why did expansion only start then?

Interesting to hear of the scepticism regarding anthropogenic climate change at this conference, which reinforces points made in a Drumbeat comments thread a couple of weeks ago. A colleague just returned from the same conference (33d International Geology Congress) has told me that he has never seen such a high ratio of industry to academia, at any other meeting. He had also attended in response to an invitation and would not normally have been at this conference - he was bored stupid by the experience and reckons that from a research perspective it was a complete waste of his time.

For research-focussed general Earth Science conferences of similar scale (~10,000 presentations each) see EGU (Europe) http://meetings.copernicus.org/egu2008/ or AGU (North America) http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm07/ both held annually. Abstracts are available on-line for both for as many years as you could care to read through and paint a very different picture in terms of attitudes towards anthropogenic climate change. Nothing at all on peak oil, mind.

high ratio of industry to academia

That was also my impression when I looked at the program and the abstracts. I think there are way too many "scientific conferences" and "technical journals", which in fact aren't really designed to bring science forward but rather serve to promote corporate PR, give a podium to certain speakers and to give an opportunity for business networking.
Otherwise I wouldn't understand presentations like that of Neil Williams, President of the Society of Economic Geologists, CEO Geoscience Australia, who seriously claims things like "The exhaustion of mineral resources is unlikely to be a major concern in the future; rather the concern will be the exhaustion of innovation."
From a PR point of view this statement is plain logic - he wants to get more funds for his "innovative" society members. If he'd talk about depletion he would (indirectly) say: Don't waste your money on us but spend it on renewables & conservation.

Don't you think you're pulling a fast one here ? Climate change denial = business ?

I mean do you read stuff like the BBC ? Business is VERY pro-AGW these days. I get a strong impression it is actually academia who are turning more and more anti-AGW.

And it is trivially true that this carbon trading scheme has put a LOT of money on the AGW bandwagon. A hell of a lot. Over 150 billion I believe.

Climate change denial is in fact a rather large industry -- something like $400 million per year in the United States alone.

Business is VERY pro-AGW these days.

Which is why there are proposals in your town Planning Board and Council to rip out developments? And why newspapers and TV are no longer pushing mortgages, new cars and whiter teeth. Business cares about selling more stuff. And lying to accomplish that is just fine.

Is this a real question ? What you're asking is "why haven't they halted the economy then".

You're basically asking "why haven't we killed all personal and business initiatives because of a potential future threat".

Does this question really need answering ? It is beyond obvious to me.

For starters, if "they" did that, "they" (and "we") would be dead. Suicide is not a reasonable response to the chance of a future accident or problem, no matter how large the chances.

Reminds me of an old physics joke.

The increase in the number of scientific journals means that the rate at which library shelf space is being taken up will soon exceed the speed of light. This doesn't violate the theory of relativity however as there is no information being transmitted.

But on a more serious note, back in the day I did some research and went to some conferences, and I found most of them to be rather tedious. You did have the opportunity to network with people, and this is valid in itself, I guess.

We used to have problems with government bureaucracy as well. For example, to measure your performance they would simply count up the number of papers you published, with no attempt being made to try and establish whether the papers were substantive in any way. Thus if we had just finished a set of measurements we would split things up and write several papers that essentially covered the same thing but with minor differences, and each paper might focus on a different aspect of the thing. I can't completely blame the government bean-counters for this though - the academics that we worked with had idiotic beancounters that were watching over their shoulders as well. After a while it sapped all of my energies...

Thank you very much Nate and Charles for this post.

More on the Golden Zone model mentioned in Charles's mail:

Golden Zone Theory simplifies oil and gas exploration

The Golden Zone is the name of a an underground zone where temperatures range between 60 and 120 C. The name refers to a new discovery that 90 per cent of the world's oil and gas reserves are to be found.

The theory has been developed over a period of ten years by the former senior researcher, now dean, Per Arne Bjørkum at the Faculty of Technology and Science at the University of Stavanger, and the researchers Paul Nadeau and Olav Walderhaug at Statoil.

Bjørkum thinks that the greatest challenge just now is to produce enough oil and gas for the next ten years.

Bjørkum thinks that the world may easily find itself in a situation of fighting wars over the access to oil and gas.

I've also run into the anti-AGW stance from a lot of geologists in Finland. It seems to be prevalent within the field. While some of the objections have imho seemed fair and reflecting the need for further study, others have just been silly rehashes of the old sun-spot garbage or other stuff that has been disproved several times over.

It'd be nice to get the Holdren point-by-point presentation, if it is public. I can only find a recent presentation from February '08 from Holdren, but no rebuttals in that.

Bjørkum's point about most needing oil over the next 10 years seems close to correct. But I'd push the start of the window of need out starting in about 5 years. We will have oil-caused recession before then. But the "how do we keep the wheels on" part of the drop probably won't start before 2012 and perhaps not until 2014.

Seems to me (and I'm interested in hearing comments from others on this) there's a bad period coming up where we've already cut back the easy stuff and then the oil decline starts eating into the muscle and reduces our ability to develop replacement sources.

Of course, some are more pessimistic and basically argue we will decline continually to the bottom and won't be able to develop much replacements at all. But I don't look at progress by companies such as First Solar and come away thinking that is the case.

I've also run into the anti-AGW stance from a lot of geologists in Finland. It seems to be prevalent within the field.

My dad had been an industrial chemist. I can still remember how adamant he was against any suggestion about chemical toxicity etc. I guess the geologist is being defensive about accusations about harm to the planet caused by his actions. That and the fact that many of these people work for extractive industry, and are exposed to anti-environmentalist rants nearly everyday.

For further review of the climate change discussion and geologists attitudes. From climatologist point of view:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/08/are-geologists-dif...

Wow - I read through part of that comment list - I really think our 'belief systems' are a core part of the manifold problems we face - to read all the intelligent comments from high ranking and respected scientists who hold vastly different opinions shows that we, as a species, are likely incapable of mitigation and can only hope for adaptation once the cards are on the table - until then everyone with a voice will disagree which cards are going to be dealt and why.

Consider the benefits of differing beliefs...

If EVERYONE had the same oppinion there would be zero intillectual progress.
Two contradictory oppiinions can BOTH have a grain of truth; the grain of truth leads to a more profound insight.
If two people who disagree with eachother rationally consider the others arguements...it is not only the 'wrong' person who benefits from the arguement. The 'correct' set of oppinions/facts will be clarified in defense of attack. Think of any oppinion you have; when someone disagrees you have motive of intillectual pride to back up your oppinion.

Differing oppinions make society interesting IMO.

Well now I agree with YOU..;-)

(I understand your point, but what happens is that we only change our beliefs by 10-15% around the fringes, and that takes a sledgehammer) Debate is good, but even solid truths sometimes take decades (centuries?) to become mainstream (e.g. evolution)

Having said that, I have learned a great deal from reading this site for 3 years +, and actually, after having shifted my views about a dozen times, I am back to the general view I started with, albeit I have deeper conviction and details around the individual points. Most don't have the luxury to go through seemingly academic arguments dozens of times in their heads however, as more mundane needs press.

It is true that most people will not change their oppinions regardless of the logical evidence...but RE Peak Oil it will be accepted under protest eventually because you cannot argue with Geological facts. The thing is most people are also followers; you only need a few leaders with good ideas and understanding...the followers let the leaders figure out the plan and facts. But we need better leaders IMO.

I agree that the Oildrum is cool and informative; I am mostly a lurker because IMO a redundant oppinion and off topic oppinions would simply be useless clutter on the Drumbeat. Most of the time I have nothing of value to add to the Drumbeat or other discussions here.

Back to lurking;)

Most of the time I have nothing of value to add to the Drumbeat
Note how many interesting side discussions your observation spawned.
Don't belittle your valuable contributions.
Thanks.

Most don't have the luxury to go through seemingly academic arguments dozens of times in their heads however, as more mundane needs press.

Sure. And that's why we have to take a lot of things on trust. Scientists do that all the time. While in principle everything they learn at university or read in a journal is testable and reproducible, in practice they simply don't have the time to test it all. So they take 99.9% of what they're told on trust, and then explore some little area of doubt in their own research.

However, when scientists get outside their own area of specialty, they often set aside their trust in the competence of their fellow scientists, and the "sceptics" come out. So we get biologists talking about abiotic oil, geologists who are Creationists or climate change deniers, and so on. A geologist who'd laugh at abiotic oil without looking at a single paper about it starts saying that the climate scientists obviously haven't properly considered sunspots. Trust in their own specialty, scepticism outside it.

For my part, I'm no kind of scientist, but I do understand the scientific method, both the official hypothesis-test-adjust hypothesis bit, and the unofficial publish-lots-of-papers-to-look-good-to-the-uni-admin and swipe-credit-from-your-students parts, the petty rivalries and feuds amidst academia and the pay-for-a-conclusion from industry and government. So I think it's fairest for me to trust the consensus of specialists in each area.

The consensus of biologists are that evolution is real, the consensus of geologists is that abiotic oil is not real, and the consensus of climate scientists is that human-caused climate change is real and happening today. I don't ask a used car salesman about house loans or a bank manager about good restaurants, I look to the specialists in each area.

One insight I read, I wish I could remember where, was that often people object to ideas like human-caused climate change not really because of the ideas themselves, but because they don't like the sort of world which would come from those ideas.

Resource depletion and human-caused climate change if properly responded to would give us a different world. It could take many forms, but things like a less consumerist culture, more localised production, more mass transit, less stuff being burned, these seem pretty certain. And some people don't like that picture, but it's hard to argue against, so they argue against the ideas causing that picture to be painted.

It's sort of like arguing against the equality of women not because you really believe they're not as capable as men, but because you don't like the idea of them sitting next to you on the judge's bench or in the walnut-panelled smoking club.

Totally agree with you here.

As a biologist (evolution and ecology specialty) I had to deal with the evolution "debates." I realized that the creationists were "against" evolution because they couldn't accept the implications, not because of any data that contradicted it.

Similarly, as I studied climate change I realized that the "skeptics" nearly always rejected the implications of climate change first. Typically they don't like government "interference." They also are conservative in the sense of "highly resistance to change." Of course strong policies on climate change require interventionist government and lifestyle changes.

On TOD I am sometimes amazed by the climate change denial and would like to point out exactly what you just did: climate change denier = abiotic oil theorist = creation science.

In my own field I can see right through the creationist BS, but I can also see it's cleverness. Funny how nowadays I am more likely to get a question about some climate denier or abiotic oil BS!

Kiashu:
"often people object to ideas like human-caused climate change not really because of the ideas themselves, but because they don't like the sort of world which would come from those ideas."
Jason:
"the 'skeptics' nearly always rejected the implications of climate change first"

Could we come to some consensus here?-)

My thoughts were on the lines of Jason's. I, for instance, don't like the GW-world because I don't want to be in the same boat with Al Gore (one group), whom I can't stand, and of leftist-socialist-agenda people, whose worldview is so foreign to mine and want to trust big government's decisions.

Back to Peak Oil:
Here it is often written that the world out there is anti-PO because they are in denial.

NO they're not. They just don't like your conclusions and your "obvious" consequences about it. Imagine me not accepting PO just because I don't like Kunstler's bent or style or the fact that he was W2K apocalyptic.

I ran across PO in 1998 and shook my head because of the image that was presented with it: military armagedon resulting from resource wars. Oh, how dramatic.

I think we need to remember that people don't usually argue on the hypothesis level, but on the consequence level. For instance:

I got rid of my car (with full support of my wife - very important!) and am PO-neutral/semi-doomer convinced. People who know me will probably put those two together in their heads. But why did I get rid of the car? Because we saw that it's doable and that we save a sh*tload of money - not because of PO.

Peak Oil is logical. But it's best to realize that your conclusions are not necessarily logical nor are those of your debate oponent.
< /preaching>

John Denver has made a life's calling out of debating against PO. NOT that PO is not going to happen. No, his real argument is that it's going to be a non-event. Meaning, he doesn't like the PO community's tenor. Well.. if it's worth it to write 300 blog entries because of that...

Cheers, Dom

I, for instance, don't like the GW-world because I don't want to be in the same boat with Al Gore (one group), whom I can't stand, and of leftist-socialist-agenda people, whose worldview is so foreign to mine and want to trust big government's decisions

The trick here is to realize that he's just the messenger, not the message. AGW, for all I can see is a very real issue. At least most of the arguments I've ever seen against tended to boil down to 'I don't like hippies', which is great but hardly a great reason to watch the planet fry.

However just because the hippies are right about AGW, doesn't mean that they are right about the solutions. IMHO Capitalism, with the right checks and balances is a far better solution than any 'socialist/communist' style solution. (Look at the mess every communist country has ever made of its environment).

A great book to read on this is Amory Lovin's "Natural Capitalism"

Basically what it boils down to is shifting tax away from income and towards pollution. Which sounds fair to me. I could use more money.

What would you say to this complaint "I don't like AGW, because, quite frankly, it means either killing or vastly lowering my living standard".

Our living standard is first and foremost dependant on exactly what will need to go down - road transport. I don't want to see supermarkets empty, and I certainly don't want to hasten emptying them (which is, let's be fair, exactly what "pollution" taxes (call them what you will) on oil will do).

The only thing I'd consider fair is to have oil-rich states pay the oil pollution taxes. They benefit, and they benefit too much. They are the ones that need taxin, they are the source.

The rest will naturally follow.

Jason,

I tend to agree with your conclusions in general but I thought I would add the comparable thought that there is a clear trend for some people to agree with evolution because they don't like the implications of there being a loving God who cares about whether they are doing the right or the wrong thing and also many people don't like to do things that others might want them to do (even God).

I am a little bit of exception to the general rule however. I object to the theory of macro-evolution that suggests that all biological information arose out of pure chance and "natural selection". Of course, that makes me a "creationist" because I disagree with the theory of evolution. If so, so be it. I am just very skeptical that random chance could generate an Encyclopedia Britannica worth of information (or more) for every separate species on the planet. If so, I would love to see the experiment that would show that random mutation has that kind of creative power. The only creative power I have seen (in experiment and in the real world) that can generate that kind of information is an intelligent purposeful mind (or Mind). So you are right in saying that I am not a biologist and therefore I am out of my field, but it is not because I am aghast at the implications of the theory of evolution, but because I only know of one thing (intelligence) that can generate that kind of creative power. IMO (perhaps uninformed) random chance is just not good enough (even over geological time). Of course, the Universe itself and the incredibly well balanced physical laws which "seem designed to foster life" seem to show evidence of having been designed with us in mind. As Steven Hawking said:

“It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.” Stephen Hawking

Getting back to the Geologists denying Anthropogenic Global Warming, there DO have a lot of experience in seeing the dramatic consequences of natural cycles on the climate (both short and long term drastic changes are in evidence in the paleoclimate data). I think that they have a lot of extra experience to add to the debate. Climate scientists don't necessarily have a monopoly on wisdom. Oceanographers have a lot to add as well.

Thanks for listening.