Belief Systems at a Turning Point

Because of the large number of comments, this thread is being closed. Please see thread http://campfire.theoildrum.com/node/6598.

It seems to me with the BP Horizon Blowout, we may be hitting a turning point in belief systems, in more than one way:

• Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?

• Can technology solve all our problems?

• If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?

• Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is here?

1. Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?

Once upon a time, back in the pre-Reagan era, capitalism and profits didn't seem to have quite the emphasis they have today in the the way the country functioned.

In 1961, President John F. Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country," and people took him seriously. Lyndon B. Johnson in the 1963 to 1969 period was responsible for designing the "Great Society" legislation that included laws that upheld civil rights, Public Broadcasting, Medicare, Medicaid, environmental protection, aid to education, and his "War on Poverty."

But by 1980, the country had been through a lot of hard times, with the decline in US oil supply starting in 1970, Nixon canceling the convertibility of dollar to gold in 1971, real wages starting to decline in 1973, and the oil price shock of 1973-1974.

Ronald Reagan was elected as US president in 1980. He was known policies that much more oriented toward laisse faire capitalism, including trickle down economics, reduced taxes, getting tough on labor unions, and deregulation of businesses.

The BP Deepwater Horizon blowout and what appears to be questionable internal decisions, makes one wonder about whether this deregulation really makes sense. There were hints that deregulation might be a problem before--with Enron's manipulation of energy markets and creative accounting, discovered in 2001, followed by all of the bank bailouts in 2008 and 2009.

Now, when one hears all the detailed allegations made in the BP incident, one wonders whether our faith in deregulation might be misplaced. One wonders too, what other problems lurk around the corner, in other deregulated industries. We recently experienced a major coal mine explosion. Might there be other problems, lurking in, say, the electrical industry, or the unconventional natural gas industry?

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?

Many individuals and groups, from Scientific American magazine, to school systems, to Energy Secretary Chu would seem to be telling us that technology can solve all of our problems.

And we have seen an endless array of new fancy gadgets over the years, starting with calculators, then computers, electric copying machines, the Internet, portable phones, and all kinds of devices to play music and send messages. These all seem to suggest that technology can do marvelous things.

Now, we are confronted with what should be not too difficult a problem--cutting off the oil flow from a well--and we find it is difficult to do. Perhaps the Deepwater Horizon blowout is an event that should get us to rethink our assumptions a bit.

3. If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?

As we sit an wait for months for relief wells to be drilled, and weeks for additional ships to be brought in, the idea that even when we do have solutions, they take time sets in.

Earlier this week, Nate posted an article by Dr. Cutler Cleveland about energy transitions. It included this graph:


Composition of U.S. energy use. (Source: Cutler Cleveland)

While wood represented over 90% of energy use in 1800, it took over 100 years to get down to 10% of energy use. Coal was the chief fuel for a fairly short period of time, but took 50 years (from about 1920 to 1970) to drop from its high point to its low point, as oil started substituting for its use. Now we are in an era of oil, gas, and "electricity". One can talk about going to electric cars, but if governments are too poor to subsidize the costs on a mass basis, and other cars have little trade in value, how many of us are going to be able to afford them? How long can such an energy transition realistically be expected to take?

Is a transition to different energy sources really going to need to take 50 years or more?

4. Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is available?

I think this question is one that not just Oil Drum readers, but the general public, is beginning to think about. Drilling in the Gulf of Mexico seemed like a fairly secure source, and suddenly we have been disillusioned. The reserves of oil companies and of the USGS depend on resources like this. But now those resources don't seem so secure. What if we with the additional costs of the new safety systems, the wells are really too expensive to drill? Or maybe they already were borderline too expensive, and this just makes the problem more clear.

Besides deep water in the Gulf of Mexico, there are other deep water oil supplies that looked to be next in line for drilling in the next few years. Brazil has made a number of claims regarding deep water discoveries, and last October, at the Association for Peak Oil USA conference, Dr. Marcio Mello made a claim that possibly a half a trillion barrels of oil could be extracted from sub-salt area, from areas around the world (not just Brazil) that are not currently included in reserves.

Another area that seems to be in line next is the arctic, but we hear that Norway has cut off new deep water drilling, until the investigation by the US into the causes of the Deepwater Horizon blowout is complete.

We are running short of places to drill. If the areas that seemed to be promising no longer look quite as promising, then where does that leave us?

Questions

1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? For example, if there is going to be less, an attitude of sharing what we have might be helpful. Income Inequality in the US is very high. Is there a way we can even out this inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better?

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

Gail,
The posing of questions such as the ones you have, are what make TOD a truly interesting destination for broad interdisciplinary observation, debate, and commentary.

I totally agree and welcome the discussion on this very important set of questions:

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

The opportunities that I see relate to possibly working on "growing up" in our political discourse. We have made so much of our discussion around black and white frames that are so absolute that we have no way to discuss or teach understanding of how things REALLY are and how to connect complex needs that have few black and white ways to address...

Most natural systems require patient understanding and real effort to understand. We are soooo impatient! We want the scope and nature of what is required to deal with or understand a matter (not to speak of the FIX) to happen immediately. There is no apparent capability to see that it takes at least some time for things to evolve and the more complex the system interplay, as in this situation where there are human, biological/animal, technical and environmental aspects, the sometime more required to sort out the threads. Yet over and over, things are couched in terms of being fixed, solved, known immediately. For an event this huge and complex, an impossibility -- but still we demand...

We cannot contiue to make huge policy decisions with scant information and knee jerk politics of division and oversimplification. Our future literally hangs in the balance towards finding a new way to live and work together...I hope that in some corner, those who care and see this can start to slowly pick up the attention and support necessary.

Over generations, first worlders might be able slow down to third world speeds, if not to the pace of the natural world. It certainly won't happen quickly unless the conditions are forced upon us.

Bit by bit, row by row.

These are essential questions. And could carry a series of threads. Because I bet we all have so many different thoughts - at least I do.

I can't say recent events have "changed" my view of things - so much as strengthened them. That, in particular, we all need to share. We need "give" and not "take". And that may need to be mandated - or at least in certain areas. For some will "give" and then others may "take" - but even the givers are affected when the effects of the "takers" go wrong.

I look around - it's so evident in the news - and I see how many "leisure activities" involve the use (to my mind, wasting) of resources. How many people depend on oil and gas for their "toys" (make your own list) or they sit in stadiums or watch on TV things like race cars. It's not going to be easy to pry these activities loose from people. Yet it's vital that we do so.

I look at how wars are so often about the possession of resources - but in the process of war, resources are wasted.

One thing about social science research, the results often have short lives, since people use the research as a basis for making decisions - which then change future results. So, let's have more research. And good ways of disseminating that.

Based on research we've passed laws limiting smoking. Our little city - as of mid-June has now banned smoking in every business. How did that come about? Via research on the effects of tobacco. Similar results could lead to laws regarding use of petroleum products, perhaps allowing only certain necessary uses and banning other wasteful uses. I know it's a stretch to imagine that right now, but how long can we go on as we are - unless we learn to change our view of how to have fun and what our yards should look like and so on.

We need to change education so that young people, who are so able to understand these issues, begin to think - in elementary school (and I taught young children for 8 years before studying for my current area of expertise) - about how to enjoy life and what needs to be shared, and how to make decisions which benefit all of us, not just a favored few.

This, as I've written before, is like a spiritual change process, a development toward wisdom.

Just some preliminary thoughts. And a suggestion that this thread be carried over. Or into further threads related to these same vital questions.

As I read through and saw the predictable defenders of capitalism and technology gone wild I wondered if circumstances would have mitigated bias. Would people be less forgiving if China or Russia had been responsible for despoiling The Hamptons, Manhattan or The Great Lakes by other means?
Can one be allowed a different standard of outrage because of the culprit, the location or the poison unleashed?
What if a Chernobyl was in Juárez?
I don't pretend intellectual honesty is easy and accept blaming BP isn't a solution. But if one chooses to minimize this to support bias or prejudice it is probably only a matter of time before someone they don't like will do something they consider evil to a place they hold dear.

Isn't it obvious, terror is in they eye of the beholder? It can be shameful, but fear and dread are at their root subjective.

Good point. Given our general reaction so far, I don't think we will ever collectively fully own up to our part in the multiple maelstroms descending upon us.

We should all be in sackcloth and ashes.

"if there is hope, it lies with the proles." Orwell

things seems quite tonight. wonder if I am the only one who listens to "Prairie Home Companion" and follows Campfire? Been a busy week. Peas, corn, squash, cucumbers, okra, etc. are all ready here just north of the "Cody Scarp." too the south, about 20 miles is the greatest treasure in the whole world, the GOM. Between, chores this week i took a field trip down to look at things for what might be the last time. Visited St. Marks Refuge, St. Marks, Econfina, Aucilla, spring Creek,Panecea, and Bald Point, Damn fine places Most folks don't appreciate what is at stake in this hemorrhage. I live within a quarter mile of Mission San Luis. The "three sisters" have been a way of life here for many centuries. they still work, converting sunshine into calories and nutrition for humans. We also know the folks who have lived here for centuries would travel to the coast during the winter to harvest oysters, catch speckled trout, and harvest water fowl. Looks like the winter stuff is going to cease. I have spent many hours of my life standing in waist deep water catching mullet with a cast net and collecting oysters and shrimp. Afraid that part is over. Wish i had some pictures of the area so folks could see the surface beauty. This place is special and its in great jeopardy. what in the f..k are we doing to our world? Been reading this site for a few years and find it a comfort, but tonight I am just waiting for campfire and friendly folks. cheers,

Oh, but you have a microwave, and a big car, and a tv, and a roadway infrastructure, and day/nightcare for your kids you never see, and a McMansion, and a lawn, and proeffeshinal status, and 40+ hour workweek to prove it. Go you! I'm impressed! Clearly your standard-of-living is way up!
Who wants or needs an ocean, lake or a river you can actually swim in or fish out of for food, etc., security. Why, you've got a military and police force and security guards for that!

;/

Tribe. No i don't have a microwave. No i don't have a big car. I drive a 1981 mini diesel truck. I don't own a TV. I am old and don't have kids at home. They rarely speak to me because they say i am a doomer. No on the McMansion. No lawn, all in garden. I have a citation on my table from the authorities for having a front lawn with plants growing over 10 inches. I grow truckers favorite corn which is 9 feet tall. Fuck im' . You probably won't have to put up with me next week, because i will be in jail. Cheers,

They won't jail you. They might fine you, and all you have to do is take a few pictures showing that you have garden plants in the front yard and they will tell you what you can and can't grow in your area.

Try not to take some people's negative comments to seriously.

Get ahold of your city rep/ alderman or whatever and tell them that you live off your land, not grow a lawn on it. They might be able to wipe the bad press from code enforcement away.

Cheers,
Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future, where code enforcement laws will be better attuned to gardens.
Hugs From Arkansas.

CEO,
thanks. You are right, i should not take negative comments to seriously.

My citation was issued by a neighbor who represents the neighborhood association. A deal was made with the city who does not have tome for this sort of thing. this neighbor has a carpet for a lawn that is maintained by a crew of folks who apply herbicides to kill unwanted weeds and poisons to kill pests. I have talked to her before, but like me she is old and set in her ways. The last official authorities she sent to my house left with a large bag of fresh vegetables, and several pots of herbs such as basil, chives, and mint. the visit provided me with the opportunity to show off my operation and give them some ideas on mosquito control. You see, i was a fish biologist in my previous life and explaining how standing water and gambusia afinnis were better than trucks spraying poison. The bastards are still spraying, and my squash are suffering from lack of pollination. I lived on a small farm for many years after learning about peak oil, but heath issues brought me back to the city. Having to learn how to appeal to unreasonable tastes in landscaping. got my immediate neighbors convinced however, and flower beds are being converted to vegetable gardens. Would you believe they appreciate fresh vegetables. Sure are lots of dimensions to the transition.

By the way, I am a Prairie Home Companion fan. I graduated from St. Olaf college in Northfield, Minnesota, and come from the general demographic being described in the show.

Another PHC fan, geek programmer in SE Iowa. '86 & '96 toyotas, no TV, no microwave. We've gardened as a hobby for many years, but last 5 years have moved more and more towards seeing how much we can easily grow and buy local. Last year we built a small greenhouse which succeeded in providing more greens than we could eat all winter, and a good variety, in this -5 degree winter, zone 4-5 climate. If anyone's interested I'll post a link to pics and basic 'how-we-did-it'. I've been thinking to write a detailed article, since I visited many resources to pull together all the details to make it work, plus more little things that made it better along the way.

Last year we built a small greenhouse which succeeded in providing more greens than we could eat all winter, and a good variety, in this -5 degree winter, zone 4-5 climate. If anyone's interested I'll post a link to pics and basic 'how-we-did-it'.

Me! Me! I'm interested! A little greenhouse and growing stuff through the winter are my next goals. We live in a similar climate zone as you (Madison, WI).

Thanks!

lilith

:-D

Passive - solar greenhouse

There are more details that we developed as we went last winter. This inspires me to sit down and write a comprehensive article. I've been thinking of it for several weeks.

The additional details, very briefly.

1. We added more insulation behind and under the water barrels to keep them from freezing.
2. We have a light layer (1 layer of that foil/insulation stuff) on top of the barrels at night only - during the day we remove it and the green house heat warms any surface/side ice.
3. We use 2 layers of floating row cover - one standard (4 degrees) and one heavy (8 degrees). Plus we added
gallon milk jugs w/ water every 3-4 feet under the floating row cover. They never froze and the soil temp didn't dip below 42 degrees.

During the winter we hardly had to water at all - perhaps once a week during a sunny period.

Now of course, we need to water every 2-4 days. We've got a 3.8 GPH solar pump, running drip irrigation - still working out the bugs, but it seems to do the job. Even tho the surface visible damp is only about 12" in diameter, it does seem to be spreading below. And encourages roots to grow deep.

During the summer, we've got quite a few greens in there, plus tomatoes & peppers that love the heat. It's hard for me to not seed an empty area, and we're having a hard time finishing off kales/cabbages from the winter - with new stuff coming on hard in the main garden.

Enjoy

Thanks so much! Very impressive. This is just the kind of thing we want to do. Can I ask about how much it cost to build?

lilith

Yes thank you for your comment.
We are very interested as well in your winter green house.

Of course, and good on ya. :) I doubt that most who actually "internalize" my comments above, like maybe your "citation officers", would be here at TOD ('cept perhaps to spy ;).

BTW, Tribe Of Pangaea is in part about ultimately/eventually/progressively ignoring some governments (thus rendering them redundant without the need for messy "coup d'etats") that don't work, that have little to do with people's welfare (and have more to do with simply a small gang bent on controlling people by intimidation/force/violence [via their military and police]), and about joining and/or creating your own. A self-government, "mediated" by something like this "social networking" site, maybe using some FLOSS methods as inspiration. "Glocal"

Where you and everyone else is in power. Self-ownership.

Of course, inasmuch as we giveth governments/"corporate governance" legitimacy, we can taketh away. Let not fear stand in the way.

All the best with your crops. Let us know how it goes, even from jail if you can. If someone like you needs help in the future, Tribe Of Pangaea may yet be powerful enough to simply unlock your door and set you free- or prevent you from getting there in the first place.

The Oil Drum and the like need to understand the power they have in their hands that can go far beyond mere discussion. With power comes great responsibility.

If not now, when?

"Give me a threshold..."
-- Derrick Jensen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BFJe3FDVMs&feature=related

The threshold is long past due. It is now.

Tribe,

I wonder why your response to Cretin was projecting that in some manner he was the CEO of a large corp. His post was a truly spiritual one and I'm not sure why anyone would take his comments and interpret he or all americans are CFOs/CEOs. I did hear him saying he wanted his life back but not in a manner that one would find offensive. I related to every comment Cretin made. What's a mullet or speckled trout? Well it's the same as Alan's blue fin tuna they are a way of life and survival for many. Many people on the gulf coast die with about as much as they are born with. The work hard from the time they are physically able to work until they are no longer able. Some may call it poverty but I don't think that Cretin or many of the people who have chosen this way of life view it. Cretin wasn't whining he was whailing and it sounded painful.

PS What's a microwave?

I'm on Cretin's wave. It was a sarcastic post. You'll likely notice a winkie at its end. Also please read my post just before this one.

I haven't evolved far enough to interpret "e" emotions. I believe in straight forward communication and it's possible I didn't see it because I was still feeling what RC referenced.

Fair enough.

A microwave is a ripple in a puddle. They make good waves to test your paper boat building skills with, or your small scale house boat made out of wooden coffee stir sticks.

A Microwave in the house is when someone drops the soap in the tub and the splash of water hits the floor in the bathroom/ or room where your wash tub is located.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from balmy Arkansas.

I post on about 3 campfires in 5. I have not listened to NPR in a while, used to have it geared to the local station in most of my cars/vans. How is Mr. K doing these days?

I was on Gulf beaches about a decade ago, and only know a few people from the region, most of my connections are through TOD with the area. But I used to live in Alabama, just not on the coast.

Lots of things will change in the coming months to all the maps of the region. I used to have a job updating the database of world maps, coastlines being the hardest to keep track of changes, the US Gulf of Mexico being the fastest changer.

Maybe not everything will be lost, and maybe we will see the natural systems helping us where we least expect it too.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas.

How was your harvesting again?

I was offline most of the day, yesterday, due to work being done on the electrical panel at my house.

It is a great reset to be without power, for any length of time. Yesterday was interesting as it was overcast and rainy all day, so my usual solar backup systems were out of commission.

In any event, my solar hot water system doesn't operate without power. My cell phone, laptop charger and solar oven - non-operational.

It was pretty good, however, to spend the day immersed in a good book, having no idea what the rest of the world was doing !

Grateful for strawberries ripe for picking, cherries off the tree, peas ready to eat (the gas stove was working), and a large jar of mixed nuts. Plenty of stocks in the pantry !

Addendum :

To answer Gail's questions : I think one has to build a lot of redundancy into systems. We can't rely on any one supply system to be our only one. Technology is a great enabler of all kinds of activity, but can't be the only enabler.

Our problem right now is that fossil fuels currently enable about 95% of our current activity, in the industrialised world. Not a very resilient model.

Redundancy. It should be a mantra!

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?

I can't answer this here, but I did just finish up a blog post on stuff I am working on in the context of belief systems predicated on rational outcomes. In it I wrote "if you seek rationality, you will ultimately only land on random chance."
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/06/mentaculus.html
Enjoy, because we all have to laugh at ourselves.

yup, I just looked at it. Suggest you read "The Gambler", by Fyodor Dostoevsky.

It looks as if that book is a study of compulsion and addiction. Must have a lot of levels open to interpretation, as all good fiction does.

yup, compulsion and addiction will trump every time. They can't do much with mother nature though, and neither can statistics.

Yet if you know probability & statistics you likely won't get addicted to gambling. Worked for me.

WHT - That's false. The pleasure response has little connection to statistics. Gambling sets off a massive releases of endorphins. A gambler isn't looking for money or sex. A gambler wants to continue gambling.

Joe

While this is almost universally true, it is not absolutely so. I know mathematicians who go (or used to go) to play black jack and regularly beat the house. They had investors and everything. It wasn't that much fun, they would say--more like going to work and applying a few fairly straightforward principles over and over again. And keeping track very carefully.

One would go to conferences on gambling and ask impertinent questions like: "Is gambling an addiction if you always win?"

If you always win, it's not gambling.

Years ago, I read a book (God and Mr. Gomez) by an LA Times columnist named Jack Smith,wherein he opined to the man helping him build his Baja California vacation house: "The name of God is Random Chance."

Mr. Gomez replied "The name of God is Dios."

I still think Jack got it right.

Technology can solve a lot of our problems. To do that we have to put down the X-Boxes, start reading some some books again, and get ourselves re-educated in math and science. Our national IQ has fallen off the side of a cliff in the last 30 years.

If we plan as a society to depend on technology, everyone has to be math/science literate throughout their lives.

Out best minds need to be working in labs, not in investment banks, in casinos counting cards or playing poker.

Scientific/achievement needs to be rewarded with the fame and celebrity. We should be gathering around out TVs to watch Nobel Prizes, not Oscars.

We can start by no longer remaining mute while religious extremists attack the scientific method. Stop keeping silent as dingbats attack real science because if gets in the way of some of their wilder beliefs. For example, the ones that think the Earth is 6000 years old. Cavemen did not ride dinosaurs like horses. "The Flintstones" was not a historical docu-drama. Evidence backed statements and beliefs are not equally valid.

Then make it so that people can benefit from their efforts at science and research. Oh, wait, that's capitalism. Sorry, no can do, buddy.

I want to second what was said above - thanks to Gail, Prof. Goose, Leanan as well as the regular posters who make this site so valuable.

Beyond that, I just wanted to quibble with "the oil supply that everyone has told us was available". Credible skeptics have been sounding alarms about oil supply for a good long while. Admittedly, mainstream sources have been pretty unanimous in promising free ponies forever, but anyone who cared to do their own research and thinking could see where we have been heading for decades. I'd say take everything you read in the papers with a grain of salt.

Preferably many grains of salt, encircling a margarita.

Answers -

1. Recent events have mostly just confirmed my fears for a dirty, energy-insecure future.

2. Westerners, and Americans above all, have to give up their onward and upward mentality, plus their once through, buy it break it throw it away resource use pattern. We have to start viewing the natural environment as something delicate and precious.

3. If this is a wakeup call, well and good. If we fight out some half assed, industry friendly additional regulation of deepwater oil in six months and then go back to sleep, then so much the worse for us.

Peace.

their once through, buy it break it throw it away resource use pattern.

This frustrates me to no end as it pertains to available products. For example, I broke my hoe handle and went to buy another one. A brand-new hoe with handle costs LESS than a replacement handle. ! I don't understand that. I reckon they expect me to throw the old one away.

Then there are things for which the replacement components aren't available, just entire assemblies or the whole product. Feh.

An underlying thing (about throwaway society) IMO is that people are disconnected from processes. I don't think that they necessarily like it being that way, I think it makes them feel useless.

How old was the Hoe? It most likely was made in the US, the new one is made elsewhere, and costs less because of that. There was something we here were talking about fixing, and the replacement parts cost almost as much as a new item. I can't remember what it was that was broken, there have been several things recently. The need to fix things runs deep in this family, and we don't replace things unless we have too.

That half of the productions of products that used to be made in America are now made elsewhere, is a bit numbing. What happened when we can't ship them here any more? What happens then to our available sustainable lifestyles?

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future, parts made locally.
Hugs from Arkansas.

I don't recall the age of the hoe, this was a few years ago. IIRC my husband bought the new one but saved the old head. There are several old pieces of shovels and the like up in the barn. Hard to throw away that kind of stuff.

We like to try to make parts if we can't get them. Sometimes this takes a good bit of skill (welding, sewing) and sometimes it's ridiculously easy (cutting a gasket from flat material). I'd like to learn some other things like how to make wooden parts on a turning lathe.

There are some parts which can't be fabricated at home, that's what is troublesome about your second paragraph. :/

Alluvial,
I have numerous garden tools with replacement handles. On my farm i frequently identify young trees that meet the criteria for hoe, shovel or rake handles. Just trim them up to the desired length and width and use a draw knife to taper them to fit into the tool. Usually with modern versions of old tools you have to grind off a rivet and drive out a piece of metal but it can easily be replaced with a little drilling of the new handle and a spare nail or other piece of metal. I have a neighbor who grew up in a family who made handles for tools and ladders for a living. But, most old timers just kept their eye out for a likely handle and harvested it when needed. You can do it. Sure you may not get it exactly right the first time, but i encourage you to try it. Tool handles are not likely to be easy to find in the future and the satisfaction of knowing how to repair a broken tool is part of the sustainability trip we are all on. You can do it. Cheers,

Thanks for the encouragement rube. I do think that we will adapt and be just fine here, we've ended up with a piece of good land (including a pond with fish) which the city grew up around; kind of like living in the country in the middle of the city. We have inherited a lot of the old kinds of tools, too, which I have a feeling will come in handy. Now to start planning the gardens. ;-)

I've had good results with Square Foot Gardening. It's a good way of getting the maximum vegetable growth out of a minimum space with the least effort. The author is a bit overoptimistic about the space a particular plant requires, though. After a couple of seasons you'll get a feel for the fact that 8 peas in a square foot is a bit much, and that broccoli sprawls so much that maybe one square isn't quite enough.

But that's gardening, isn't it?

8 peas in a square foot is a bit much

You can plant them much more densely than that, plant ten or so in a five inch pot and harvest the tender shoots as salad leaves. Don't cut the shoots back too far and they will grow again and again. This is a picture of a pot of peas I cut the shoots from a few days ago.
DSC02591

Indeed. I like square foot gardening, too. (I recommend the first edition of Mr. Bartholemew's book over the second. The second edition is rather dumbed down, IMHO.) However, it is not the only high yield gardening technique available.

Plants are resilient - there could not be such a wide variety of successful gardening methods otherwise - and it doesn't take much to get something out of a garden. But getting the most we can out of our gardens ultimately requires us to optimize our techniques, and that involves tradeoffs. For example, container gardening tends to trade greater initial expense for higher yields per area, but that's not an argument against it. It's just a statement of what it's best optimized for. Every gardener should try to optimize their garden, and that does not always mean optimizing for total yield.

It really is about what you want your garden to do, and what flowers you want to grow.

Just had a chat about this with my neighbor. He gets his tool handles from the woods across the road. Vine maple.

I have some basic hand tools for woodworking, and a few rally good books on making tools to make tools. I can't try every new skill right now, but I have some reference material that is at my level with what resources are around me.

I chopped some limbs off of a bush and kept them to make walking stick out of a few years ago. They are still sitting on top of a pile of other things, that won't rot, as they are metal. My dad has more hand tools than most hardware stores. Taking care any place you live can take hours a week, and having the tools handy to do almost anything with either power tools or with hand tools is a blessing.

A few weeks ago Dad got out a power grinder and cut some 1/2 inch rebar in lengths to be bases for some PVC pipe we were using as extra fencing around the tomatoes which grew over the wire fences we put up originally. Even though this is a city lot, It sometimes feels like we have the tools for a farm. But on the street we have 4 tradesmen living here. An Auto machanic, a HVAC guy, a concrete expert, and a Glass man (mostly vehicles, but can do homes). And my dad is retired Building Maintaince.

Buying books for all the skills you think you might need, is one things you should think about, Even though I have a teacher handy, I likely won't learn enough from him, and books are a good stop gap method.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future
Hugs from Arkansas.

Y'all may have done this already, if so, nevermind. But here's an idea: How about a thread in which folks post suggestions for reading lists? And/or discussions of the merits of particular books.

I agree . I have several axe and shovel heads in the barn too. I even keep old chain saw chains, probabley have 30 of them hanging on different nails in the barn.

"Is there a way we can even out this [income] inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better."

Yes, there is a way: Implement Milton Friedman's negative income tax proposal. Nixon came very close to backing legislation for a negative income tax back in the early seventies, before the rise in the price in oil. With stagflation the proposal was dead in the political water.

The negative income tax, in my opinion, is the best response we can make to long-term unemployment. It gives strong incentives to work, but at the same time it allows unemployed people to eat and to pay a modest rent--to live a decent, though not abundant, life. Economists like the idea of the negative income tax because of its elegant simplicity. It would be administered by the Bureau of Internal revenue. Unfortunately establishment politics favors the current mishmash of expensive and malfunctioning income redistribution programs.

In terms of economics, the negative income tax makes a lot of sense. Politically, it cannot fly now, but who knows what our political landscape will look like after 2012?

To address the predicament of declining fossil fuel energy and declining GDP over the long term we must face squarely the problem of income redistribution.

Milton Friedman and the Chicago economics crowd were a bunch of shills for big business and corporations. Suggest you read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine." Shame on you. I don't have time to unravel your logic.

Did you know that Mike Gravel (D) proposed the negative income tax during his presidential campaign?

http://www.mikegravel.us/issues

Senator Gravel's Progressive Fair Tax proposal calls for eliminating the IRS and the income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax on new products and services. To compensate for the tax on necessities, such as food, lodging, transportation and clothing, there would be a "rebate" to reimburse taxpayers. This would be paid in a monthly check from the government to all citizens. The focus on taxing new goods would also help tackle the global climate change problem.

no, but based on what i read it sounds regressive. "Whoever profits by fighting a dragon has an interest in the dragon's remaining alive." --Nietzsche

I see. It sounds regressive because Gravel called it a "Progressive Fair Tax".

First, Mike Gravel changed to the libertarian party a couple of years ago. Second, the FAIR tax is not a negative income tax. It is a national sales tax with exemptions, of which the rebate is one.

It has a number of flaws. Not least is the claim it will eliminate the IRS. To give one example of why this is so, just what agency will be responsible for determining who will receive rebate checks?

True, they are the most superstition based of a imaginary science, but it is one of the few things Friedman proposed that was worth looking at, and I'm keeping a open mind, as it appears to have merit.

Friedman was flying across the Atlantic once, and the plane lost an engine, and flight would take longer than normal. Friedman stated "I hope we don't lose the other one, we will never get down"

Where did Naomi Klein get her business degree? Nowhere. What company did she run? None. Does she have any qualifications to critique any economic system other than she can cobble together a bunch of other people's complaints about capitalism- and type? Yep- she's nice looking.

If you want to follow her into oblivion, that's your choice.

My. My. Aren't we sensitive tonight. Seems like the Cretins are smoking out the demons. Dirk, iain't that the guys name in "Boogy Nights." I seem to remember his as a ...... Seems to fit.

yep. Pretty much the definition of ad hominem--attack the person rather than her arguments.

In essence, such an approach is an admission that the attacker HAS no rational rebuttal to the arguments themselves, so they are driven to this desperate and plainly inane logical fallacy.

dohbio,
yup, you got me. I agree. Wonder what about his comment set me off? Perhaps it is the fact that for years I have kept my mouth shut and not said anything about the world I love being destroyed.. Perhaps now that free market shit has fucked up my world i have had enough. You see at some point maybe we have to call a spade a spade. Interesting, as I get older I find i have the ability to spot BS at a hundred yards. perhaps its just a delusion. At some point it must be challenged. ad hominem when used as a metaphor seemed appropriate in this case. Please accept my apology. You too Dirk. I will try to refrain from these latin termed sins in the future. Actually it is nice to get "bitch slapped" occasionally. At least someone is paying attention.

I wasn't responding to Naomi Klein's arguments, I was asking you to qualify the source that you cited in making your claims. Just as if you said the Queen of England is the world's leading drug dealer and then told me to see the information from Lyndon LaRouche- my first response wouldn't be to debate facts regarding the Queen's wealth or other sources of drugs, but rather, who the heck is Lyndon Larouche?

As for the arguments against Naomi Klein I supposedly don't have, you only need read my post further below, which was the first one I posted on the thread responding to Gail's question.

You still haven't said what you don't like about the Negative Income Tax, other than Milton Friedman supported it.

Actually, I was calling Dirk's remark an ad hom against Klein. I see he has something more substantive to say about her below, which I plan to get to tonight.

In the mean time, many of the most effective and clear eyed voices in the past century (at least) have come from outside of academia, so just saying she isn't an academic or doesn't have a degree in this or that is pretty meaningless. She has been viewing the scene as a journalist of a long time and has very thoughtful and mostly very well researched findings worth exploring, IMVHO.

So you think a business degree means something? It means you can regurgitate information and don't think for yourself. The people on Wall Street have Ivy League business degrees and we see how that turned out. Naomi Klein isn't the one who had to be bailed out.

I think some old hippie dude said you don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Klein's stuff reads pretty close to the mark when compared with actual events, both current and past.

As we witness the ongoing damage the financial industry and oil industry are bringing onto our country, I am amazed that you would suggest we unquestioningly follow these guys with business degrees.
I am a guy with a business degree and I agree with a lot of what Naomi Wolfe says. The past 20 years of industry regulating itself has done terrible damage to the US. I just pray that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission isn't as corrupt, incompetent and captured as the financial and oil regulatory bodies have proven to be.

"The past 20 years of industry regulating itself has done terrible damage to the US?" I am old enough to remember what the US was like 20 (and, more appropriately, 30) years ago, and the US is much better off now than then. If you'd care to cite even ONE statistic to support your theory, I'd like to see it.

I'd be happy to cite the fall of the Berlin wall, the internet, interest rates, unemployment- especially before Democratic control of Congress and higher Federal minimum wages- fuel economy, electricity consumption per capita, air and water pollution (actual data, not your fantasies), home ownership, drug addiction, literacy, happiness index (again, pre-Obama) and life expectancy. And that's just in the US- if you include Eastern Europe, China, India, and most of the world not harmed by their inability to control violence or sex urges.

You can't just make stuff up and expect to be successful long term. They teach that in business school.

The richest 1% of Americans own a much larger proportion of America's wealth and receive a correspondingly larger proportion of income than they did 30 years ago. They're using their wealth to dominate the political system and to use it to lock in their advantages over the rest of us.

30 years ago we were at the end of the time when medium-skill wage earners were prosperous enough to be part of the middle class. It's been a long steady downhill slide from there.

30 years ago minimum wage was $2.35. Today it's $7.25 (or higher). Look at the cost of an airplane ticket, phone bill, milk, VCR, Levi's, shoes, cost to run a reading lamp, computers, AIDs medicine, and the news.

The items that haven't plummeted in real cost? Government bureaucracy, higher education, cars (although those price increases have moderated a great deal the past couple years), and a trip to the doctor's office. In other words, those areas most regulated by government and controlled by unions (because foreign competition is limited).

The rate of poverty is lower as well. Oh- and IXTOC, the largest oil spill in the history of the Gulf, occured in 1979. And the largest oil spill in history- after the Gulf War- happened almost 20 years ago as well.

Dirk,
I'll note some facts for you.
30% of the entire Gulf of Mexico is closed to fishing.
The US government is insolvent
The Social Security Trust fund is insolvent
The pension funds of teachers, firefighters and police in the United States are holding the paper Wall Street values least.
The US banking system is insolvent.
The US government spends more on the military/ industrial complex than all other countries of the world combine.
The Federal Reserve loans international investment banks money at near 0 percent interest.
A trillion is a thousand billion and the international investment banks that provide no value to the American citizenry have been given over $10 trillion via different Federal Reserve mechanisms.
The teen crisis center in my small town has been closed because they don't have $70,000 for rent.

looks like I was right about Dirk from the beginning. Regret apologizing for calling him something, i can't remember. Please forgive. got to learn to stick to my guns.

OK, I'm bored today, let's pick some of these statistics (your phraseology, not mine) apart like I would in a biz school case study:

Berlin Wall reference: odd reference when later you state, and I quote: "And that's just in the US...".

Interest rates: I think plenty of experts, including biz school alums, would agree that our years of below-average interest rates have helped us paint ourselves into an intractable debt corner.

Fuel economy: come on, you think any reduction in fuel economy can be explained by companies taking it upon themselves? Also, when I lived in Europe, my friends had GM, Ford, VW cars very similar to US models but MPG was always much better on the Euro versions, so something must have been different with the regulation there.

Home ownership: see my note about interest rates above.

Drug addiction: this is just bait-and-switch. 15 million+ Ambien prescriptions in the US. Plus all the other sleep aids and anti-anxiety/depression prescriptions. I think we are a more drugged-up society than over. We've just been carefully and brilliantly moved over en masse to drugs that move our drug dollars from the street to big Pharma and allow us to workmore productively for 'the man'.

Literacy: don't know about you but I see an increasing number of obvious and embarrassing typographical errors in what would be considered leading online and print publications and broadcast television. And most people don't notice. I know, not really a function of a nation's literacy rate but a sign to me that people don't care anymore about literacy or spelling. And with the next generation of leaders sending an average of 100 texts per day, I don't see a bright future for literacy. LOL.

Life Expectancy: well I think I've read in several different sources that this has either already started to head back down or will soon head back down because of obesity and diabetes.

Happiness Index: this one cracks me up, only a true Puritan American can say we've improved our Happiness Index then a couple of lines later chastise other countries for not 'controlling' sexual urges. Don't know about you, but I'm happier when I'm NOT controlling my sexual urges.

There is good debt and bad debt. Winning the Cold War was good debt, and the fall of the Berlin Wall and the resulting freedom and improvement in living standards in Communist countries was a good thing- you agree?

That debt was also considered intractable- but then the economy grew through the 1990s as a result of NAFTA, welfare reform, monetary policy, technology and productivity improvements, and low cost energy. And deficits turned to surpluses. If you want to credit a Democratic president (who embraced free trade, welfare reform, and deregulation), fine with me.

I only talk about sexual urges because AIDS is responsible for reducing life expectancy in Africa. I doubt it's a good thing if your happiness is tied to more indiscriminate sex.

How do you account for the past decade of stock market volatility and high structural unemployment?

Combination of the Fed yield curve inversions (which always lead to recession) and a global labor glut due to hundreds of millions of people being added to the global labor pool.

That these folks have had significant improvements in living standards while Americans have also progressed (some admittedly more than others) is one of the greatest achievements of Reagan supply-side doctrine.

Winning the Cold War was good debt, I'd agree. But it was also very very miniscule debt compared to what we're faced with now. Since 1980 graphs illustrating the debt are hockey-stick shaped, graphs of GDP are upward sloping and now plateauing and graphs of real household income are downward sloping.

It is a fascinating illustration of how different we all are when I see this list: "...NAFTA, welfare reform, monetary policy, technology and productivity improvements, and low cost energy..." and I tend to see things that were mostly short term, get-me-re-elected-now policies that have intractably f*cked us starting about now. You see them as all positives I presume. And I'm not crediting a Democrat president. I sort of liked him when he was in office and voted for him over the competition but I was mostly drinking and partying those days and not paying attention to what he was really helping set the stage for, which is where we are now. And we all know he would never have been President if it weren't for Perot. So my point is the party doesn't matter, the policies have the same result.

AIDS: Yes of course we can blame those having unprotected sex for spreading the disease in Africa, they are definitely not taking responsibility for their actions, presuming they've been educated and are choosing to ignore what they learned. I think that's different than giving in to sexual urges because obviously we all know ways of having protected sex. Remember too that our own President in the 1980s, armed with the latest information that the top scientists in the world based right here in the USofA were gathering, ignored the whole thing for years here as well.

Reminds me of a dude fallen from a high window. Someone asks on the way down: "How is it going?"

"So far, so good!"

"I have never killed a man, but I know I can."

-Anonymous

"It gives strong incentives to work, but at the same time it allows unemployed people to eat and to pay a modest rent--to live a decent, though not abundant, life."

If this is the case, who will bother to work?

With the negative income tax people who work get more income than people who do not work--in contrast to many of our existing programs. Without work, no cable TV, can't afford a cell phone, limited opportunities for transportation, minimal housing. With work comes a better life.

The negative income tax is highly progressive. It is also logical and easy to understand, even for politicians. I'd be delighted to give up my Social Security benefits for about the same amount of money received from a negative income tax. Actually, my pension income is so high I might not qualify for much negative income tax.

Without the negative income tax what will we do about the increasing ranks of the long-term unemployed? Also, with the negative income tax rich people would not get any; now rich people collect a lot of Social Security benefits they don't need.

Have you googled negative income tax?

So the 4 people I can name with my left hand who have no income or very little of it, can get by without me helping them because the NIT would keep them from being homeless? Just asking, I've heard about the Fair tax bill that was out there a while ago, but congress had bigger fish to fry and nothing much was done on that either.

What would your tax rate be, the one I am reading about is set at 25%. Current min wage is $7.25 which means most people can't afford much past food and lodging and utilities.

I do wish there were something fair to keep people from all the suffering they do in a land of the free and home of the brave. But at times looking around some areas, they seem to be living in a third world country without the free land to live off.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas

Yes, the four people you are helping would receive NIT, enough to lead decent lives, but with little beyond the necessities. As they earned money, their NIT would be reduced about 25 cents for each dollar of extra income. Once they got up to maybe double the poverty level, the amount of NIT received would be a lower percentage than 75 percent. As their income rises from more work the NIT is gradually reduced until at some point they will be paying income tax instead of receiving NIT.

You might try searching Google for "negative income tax" for more details.

"With the negative income tax people who work get more income than people who do not work"

And that seems pretty obvious on its face.

Are you saying:

1. People who work have LESS income than people who do not?

2. People who do not work should pay more taxes?

3. Do you know what per cent of their income those folks who make over a million dollars a year pay on average versus somone who makes 30 K a year/

4. Do you realize sales tax and most other fees are highly regressive (which means that poor people pay more as a proportion of their income)

You have a belief system Sailorman. It is not necessarily anchored to your critical thinking or skepticism. Too bad. You are a smart person but kinda not thinking cause you have "beliefs"

Everybody has beliefs. The most rationalistic thinkers of all time, such as Spinoza and Leibniz had beliefs. For example, I believe that mathematics and statistics are a worthwhile tool to gain knowledge. That is a matter of faith. All science is based on faith, as you will see if you study the history of science.

My favorite tax--along with that of many other economists--is the value added tax. Instead of taxing income, it taxes consumption. Thus there is an incentive to cut consumption and to save more. By exempting basic foodstuffs, medicines, and used clothing from the value added tax, the tax can be made progressive. Indeed, sales of used items in general would not be subject to the tax. I would also like to see much stiffer inheritance taxes for estates above a million dollars, because I'm concerned about the concentration of wealth in American society.

In today's mess of income transfer programs it is common for people to get more income by not working than they would receive working forty hours a week at the minimum wage with no health benefits.

People who do not work would still pay taxes under the negative income tax program because they would still buy goods and services.

For example, I believe that mathematics and statistics are a worthwhile tool to gain knowledge. That is a matter of faith.

You can arrive at the same conclusion empirically. For many people then it is not a matter of faith.

All science is based on faith, as you will see if you study the history of science.

The question is whether or not faith is NECESSARY. And whether science and faith are in conflict or mutually exclusive. For me they are. Of course I can't speak for everyone - lots of people reach various accommodations between the two.

All science is based on faith

Science is based on observation and repeatable experimentation, it's a bit like art.

Art is anti- faith, it presumes to create and is heretical. So is science.

Faith at one time opposed science but the frontal assault ended with the demise (embarrassment) of the faith establishment. Now, faith seeks (successfully at times) to co- opt science.

That faith seeks to do so illustrates how sleazy and corrupt faith really is. It's like an old whore who becomes upset when you don't tell her constantly how beautiful she is.

It's unfortunate that the majority of economists appear to be so convinced that high-level argument is still the way to discern the accuracy of statements, rather than data-mining, experiment and simulation. These aren't infallible either, but they are more likely to be correct than all the pontificating.

(I don't disagree with you as a first hypothesis, but understanding what would actually happen given a model of human behaviour and response to incentives/penalties -- not even actual human behvaiour -- is only effectively ascertainable by looking at experiments/simuation.)

I found the NIT information interesting. I would add to it, though, with my favourite fantasy tax- the Federal Income Tax.

The principle behind the Federal Income Tax is that the protection of the various items one owns- real estate, cars, securities, etc., by the police, military and the infrastructure to support them, is proportionally less for those who have much than it is for those who have little. So, if your net worth is $30 million, you should pay more for it's protection than someone whose net worth is negative. (I would make the first $400,000 net worth per person exempt, and then make the tax progressive.)

The thing I like about an FPT is that it would start to whittle away at the concentration of wealth you speak of above.

Lloyd

(I would make the first $400,000 net worth per person exempt, and then make the tax progressive.)

Hmm, let me guess your net worth. Around $400k maybe?

Less than that. I chose it merely as an example; the powers that be will never allow such a tax to be enacted anyway, so I wasn't concerned with absolute accuracy. It seemed like a figure that would allow one to own a house and a car and some investments most places (probably not Manhattan, Vancouver, San Fransisco, etc.) A number above which you should be able to afford the vig on.

Lloyd

I would only favor the VAT if it replaced the income tax. But since it is usually proposed as a way to expand the government's portion of the economy I am generally opposed to the VAT.

You did not, in any way, answer the question. WHO will work? And, after you've come up with a means of figuring out what percentage of the population refuses to work, what percentage won't be able to find work, could you please calculate the percentage of wages that would be needed to confiscated from those who do, in order to pay for it?

The idea of incentivizing our tax and welfare system so as to motivate the population to be UNproductive is so unbelievably... Dumb(?)... It simply takes my breath away.

Did you even read the wiki on the NIT?

Our current system incentivizes people not to work, the NIT doesn't.

As proposed here, the NIT enables everyone to NOT work at all.

Of course, the tax rates would be so enormous that all but instant economic collapse would occur. Every dollar in circulation would be spent uselessly, nothing invested in future or growth. But hey, a handful of progressives would be giddy with excitement at the opportunity full economic collapse would afford them to become full blown despots.

I looked this up. Thanks. Something to think about

Sailor,
If you've sailed in the Pacific Northwest you are probably aware of the cultural attitude toward wealth that the seafaring tribes of the area held before they were decimated by the white man's diseases. Prestige was accorded to those who threw the biggest party and gave away the most wealth, not to those who accrued wealth to themselves.

Now it is hard to envision a CEO of Goldman Vampire Squid or Cisco (Amerca's Cup little boys pissing match) adopting that ethic so they will need a little encouragement. A law requiring the richest 500 individuals in each year to give away 50% of their income or face a firing squad should do the job. If one is lucky enough to still be on the Fortunate 500 next year they will have the opportunity to gain even more prestige by giving away 50% of the remainder.

Since the USA is the first world country with the most unequal distribution of income and is the only major country without a public health care system there will be no lack of better places to use their wealth rather than a sixth home with twelve gold plated bathrooms---.

While we are at it lets level the playing field for young people entering their productive years in society by following Warren Buffet's lead. A 100% inheritance tax for any inheritance over $100,000, the proceeds to be equally distributed among every single young adult when they reach age 24. The crack dealer in the Bronx should have the same (financial) chance to make something of his life as Bill Gates' kid...

If you've sailed in the Pacific Northwest you are probably aware of the cultural attitude toward wealth that the seafaring tribes of the area held before they were decimated by the white man's diseases. Prestige was accorded to those who threw the biggest party and gave away the most wealth, not to those who accrued wealth to themselves.

That is not unique to the Pacific Northwest. It is a common type of tribal behavior in many regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_man_%28anthropology%29

One could say that the US Congress operates on this principle.

It is of course "easier" when the money is stolen from someone else first. Dark Ages warlords had a similar way of rewarding their soldiers.

It is of course "easier" when the money is stolen from someone else first. Dark Ages warlords had a similar way of rewarding their soldiers.

Yes, progressive taxation, estate taxes and redistribution from rich to poor is "stealing". Of course, doing the reverse --tapping the taxpayer to bailout Wall Street, or exploiting natural resources (much of it obtained by smoke filled room shenanigans, see history of oil & gas industry), or extracting surplus labor (rent) from working class people and forming mafia-style oligopolies, well that's just GOOD OLD FASHIONED FREE MARKET CAPITALISM!

Let's summarize: In the right-wingoverse, "stealing" wealth from poor & giving to the rich = good, free market capitalism. But... "stealing" wealth from rich & giving to the poor = Evil Socialism.

You said: "Yes, progressive taxation, estate taxes and redistribution from rich to poor is "stealing". Of course, doing the reverse --tapping the taxpayer to bailout Wall Street, or exploiting natural resources (much of it obtained by smoke filled room shenanigans, see history of oil & gas industry), or extracting surplus labor (rent) from working class people and forming mafia-style oligopolies, well that's just GOOD OLD FASHIONED FREE MARKET CAPITALISM!"

No, it isn't. Bailing out Wall Street, and other transfers of wealth from government to business is NOT "free market capitalism". If such had been in place, the people on Wall Street would now be begging for coffee and someone else would be in the business they used to be in.

"transfers of wealth from government to business is NOT "free market capitalism""

Perhaps, but only if you admit that in fact there is no such thing as "free market capitalism."

Comparatively (for the time) large markets evolved around the Mediterranean Sea in the second millennium BC, always in a context of very strong local control by the King.

Markets free of regulation are a contradiction in terms. They are piracy.

All who advocated for such things, and for the decades of deregulation fever that lead us to the collapse, should be charged with criminal collusion with the grand thieves that walked off with all of our cash, or be found guilty of criminal naivite' for thinking that huge banks would not be ultimately found to be "too big to fail" and be given a bail out.

While we are at it lets level the playing field for young people entering their productive years in society by following Warren Buffet's lead. A 100% inheritance tax for any inheritance over $100,000, the proceeds to be equally distributed among every single young adult when they reach age 24. The crack dealer in the Bronx should have the same (financial) chance to make something of his life as Bill Gates' kid...

You're preaching to the choir here, but just wait for the inevitable "B-b-but that's Communism!" right-wing denunciations.

I think $100K is way too low, but I would at least like to bring back the 50% tax on estates over $3 million.

I think you do need to find a way for small businesses to remain in families. When everyone here is talking about relocalization, you need a way for small businesses to remain viable if the proprietor dies. If his children are forced to sell it to pay the taxes, that is not going to happen.

At 100K you also force the sale of primary residences to pay the tax bill, which I think is not a good way to go (although this often happens anyways when there are multiple children, with a 100K cap you would nearly always need to do this).

1) I prefer not to have a belief system related to the particulars of energy use and development, and would rather stick with science, facts, research, evaluating the opinions of objective experts, etc etc. Not being intimate with some of the code sometimes used at particular forums, is "belief system" related to Rapture in some way?

2) See 1) above. And no, I don't think income inequality has much to do with belief systems either, at least not religious ones. Hard work, personal responsibility, natural ability and intelligence, those items might be more related to the income question.

3) I agree with the Rothschilds on this one. Blood in the streets is the time to buy and when there is money to be made, bubbles are for suckers. Real estate speculation, targeted market investments, all make quite a bit of sense during downturns.

And this sentence is a little fuzzy:

The reserves of oil companies and of the USGS depend on resources like this.

The USGS doesn't do reserves, but the oil companies do. The sentence makes it seem like the USGS has its own reserves or something to that effect. The USGS does evaluate resource potential:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2010/3027/

"assessment of undiscovered oil and gas resources"

but that isn't reserves.

Yes, the USGS does indeed do reserves as far as analysis is concerned, see the work of USGS geologists Attanasi, Root and Verma in the 1990's.

But they royally screwed up their analysis by not predicting any asymptotic reserve levels, thus provoking cornucopians such as Lynch (and perhaps yourself) into convincing lots of people that creaming curves and reserve growth projections showed huge potential. That could have set back our belief in real oil depletion by years.

I do believe in reserve growth but I also have a good analytical model for it, which is more than I can say for the USGS.

do you also believe in infinite resources on a finite planet?

That question is intended for ReserveGrowthRulz.

do you also believe in infinite resources on a finite planet?

Thanks Web, I thought he was asking you.

Ah-hmm....are you kidding? Nobody in the history of the world (that I am aware of anyway) claims infinite resources on this planet, why would I? Point the beginner level strawmen elsewhere please.

That was cleared up elsewhere in this thread. RC did not understand the notion of an asymptote, which is understandable.

Unfortunately, you are the one that chose the name ReserveGrowthRulz.

OTOH, I purposely did not choose the name ResourcesAreInfinite or PoniesForEveryone.

It reduces the risk of misunderstanding
:)

Yes, the USGS does indeed do reserves as far as analysis is concerned, see the work of USGS geologists Attanasi, Root and Verma in the 1990's.

Studying the changes in someone elses reserve estimates isn't "doing reserves", its "studying how come someone else keeps changing their numbers".

I am unsure about Root, but for future reference, Attanasi and Verma don't have a single geology degree between them.

But they royally screwed up their analysis by not predicting any asymptotic reserve levels, thus provoking cornucopians such as Lynch (and perhaps yourself) into convincing lots of people that creaming curves and reserve growth projections showed huge potential. That could have set back our belief in real oil depletion by years.

Reserve growth projections do show huge potential. Appropriately I might add. And just because they choose to use a bounded timeframe rather than an asymptotic function doesn't invalidate their position in the least. As for "our belief in real oil depletion"....please....it hasn't even been determined that many around here even know what that means....after a few dozen years in the business I'm not even sure I know based on the poor use of terminology among the internet "expert" set.

I do believe in reserve growth but I also have a good analytical model for it, which is more than I can say for the USGS.

I will restrain myself from voicing an opinion on what passes for a "good analytical model" on that topic, in your eyes.

I don't care how many degrees those geologists do or don't have. Their work gets sanctioned by the USGS and they write it up in academic journals and in USGS reports, like this one:
The Significance of Field Growth and the Role of Enhanced Oil Recovery [PDF]

See that reserve growth curve, with no hint of an asymptote?

Well an asymptote does exist, and must, but you only see it if you do some analysis and bring in some physical constraints.
see http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4311

asymptote? i better move on, this has gotten too deep in the weeds for us Cretins. must be pretty important though, cause some smarter folks than me seem to think it discovers unlimited stuff. forgot, this post was all about beliefs. guess if you apply statistics to things they get bigger, and bigger, and big..... got to go to bed.

asymptote? i better move on, this has gotten too deep in the weeds for us Cretins. must be pretty important though, cause some smarter folks than me seem to think it discovers unlimited stuff.

Unfortunate that the work is being misrepresented then, don't you think?

Goes with the territory I am afraid. After all, you brought up the point of possible misinterpretation that USGS actually "owned" reserves. I'm sure Gail knew that wasn't the case, as she was talking in the abstract sense. The way I read it is that the government agencies should know the reserves, while corporations make the money.

asymptote:
a straight line that is the limiting value of a curve; can be considered as tangent at infinity; "the asymptote of the curve"

In this context, if a line does not appear to flatten out, the quantity that it describes will go to infinity. Infinite reserves is the implication of not assuming an asymptote.

You were the one who suggested I read Fyodor Dostoevsky. Reading Russian has got to be as hard as talking technical.

Can't say i know the answer to that one. Cause i can't do either. but we Cretins do know that when it is brown and smelly with flies all over it, it is likely BS.

An asymptote on a graph can be more simply described as a point a line cannot cross.

That works for me, thanks.

Thanks for explaining the asymptote, i had forgotten my high school math. What I get from this is that the failure to include this creates an implicit assumption (never discussed) that resources are infinite. This is the first time that I have understood what you have been talking about with regard to assumptions about reserves. I appreciate the explanation because mathematical statements made in graphic form do expose hidden assumptions. I imagine that USGS scientists would verbally agree that resources are not infinite, but their mathematical statements contradict their verbal statements. Is this close to what you are saying?

I imagine that USGS scientists would verbally agree that resources are not infinite, but their mathematical statements contradict their verbal statements.

The confusion appears to arise only when someone looks at the function without reading the directions on how it is used. The USGS does document their work pretty well, it didn't take but a few minutes to track them down.

What rdberg42 said I definitely agree with.

The "directions" use the raw data and extrapolate solely from the data itself. If they only use the data and the data points to a linear increase, people will infer infinite reserves.

The problems again are:
1. No model basis.
2. No consideration of properly dealing with censored data.
3. No explicit denial of a bounding horizontal asymptote.
4. No clear bias analysis due to initial discovery value (a multiplier effect)

I don't care how many degrees those geologists do or don't have. Their work gets sanctioned by the USGS and they write it up in academic journals and in USGS reports, like this one:

I am a petroleum engineer and would consider it rude for someone to confuse me with a mathematician. Based on your comments about the training of petroleum engineers, you might not like your professional credentials being confused with mine. Lets try and recognize that others may feel the same, no matter where they do their work.

As far as your example, I see no asymptote. I have no doubt you know how they do bound their function when doing projections, certainly someone familiar with their work would know this. You reference their professional work, but you do not mention that they have already limited their functions in another way. Why not?

Your TOD story would be a good place to make comments on your disparaging recital of the work of others, but it is closed.

As far as your example, I see no asymptote. I have no doubt you know how they do bound their function when doing projections, certainly someone familiar with their work would know this. You reference their professional work, but you do not mention that they have already limited their functions in another way. Why not?

The point is that they don't even know what is going on! In one of their papers they call it "the enigma of reserve growth". By calling it an enigma, they admit that they don't understand it. Yet they draw curves with no asymptote. You just can't do this if you are concerned about the possible implications.

Here is another link and an excerpt from a USGS "Fact Sheet":

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-202-96/FS-202-96.html
The causative factors that contribute to reserve growth are complex and interrelated, and have thus far resisted individual analysis. Estimates of the future reserve growth of a set of fields are at present usually based on empirical projections of past reserve-growth patterns.
...
Yet, as Attanasi and Root (1994) emphasized when they referred to "the enigma of oil and gas field growth," reserve growth is poorly understood. Projections of future reserve growth in the United States carry large uncertainty. Much work remains to be done on the phenomenon of reserve growth, which is arguably the most significant research problem in the field of hydrocarbon resource assessment.

That web page was last updated in 2004. Anything new since then?

Your TOD story would be a good place to make comments on your disparaging recital of the work of others, but it is closed.

What am I suppose to do, praise it?

If the work is wrong, then it is wrong. You can call it "disparaging the work of others" or any other euphemism you want, but it is ultimately wrong.

By calling it an enigma, they admit that they don't understand it. Yet they draw curves with no asymptote. You just can't do this if you are concerned about the possible implications.

Really? You are advocating that scientists with advanced technical training, published research on the topic spanning a decade or two, and more information than you have aren't qualified to take their best shot at an answer because internet forum posters not as smart as you might not catch the who and why of how they limited their function?

During the World Assessment back in 2000 the USGS only used 30 years along that curve. They said so, Schmoker and Klett, U.S. Geological Survey World Energy Assessment, DDS-60, Chapter RG, Page 8.

Certainly any reasonable reserve growth research would show that they certainly aren't growing these things forever....are you implying that the wording they used was vague? Or that most people doing research don't notice the details...while doing research? Or are people just stupid in general, because they don't have your mathematical abilities?

What they did seems pretty clear to me, but then I'm just one of those dumb petroleum engineers who don't no much dat maths. :)

"Your TOD story would be a good place to make comments on your disparaging recital of the work of others, but it is closed."

What am I suppose to do, praise it?

If the work is wrong, then it is wrong. You can call it "disparaging the work of others" or any other euphemism you want, but it is ultimately wrong.

So...if you view something as wrong (and really, your own analysis is nothing more than redoing their work, with what looks like their data, except using a super duper special function rather than something doing the same job and much more understandable for the layperson) its okay to just make fun of it, call it names, misrepresent the limiting factors, and continually denigrate the academic training of the people involved by pretending that they are geologists? All because they came up with something pretty easy to understand, does the job for the purpose they applied it to? Pretty harsh there Web. Have you ever taken this attitude into peer reviewed research and gotten away with it?

During the World Assessment back in 2000 the USGS only used 30 years along that curve. They said so, Schmoker and Klett, U.S. Geological Survey World Energy Assessment, DDS-60, Chapter RG, Page 8.

Certainly any reasonable reserve growth research would show that they certainly aren't growing these things forever....are you implying that the wording they used was vague? Or that most people doing research don't notice the details...while doing research? Or are people just stupid in general, because they don't have your mathematical abilities?

I just looked at that paper, they only pulled 30 years because it was for a 30 year forecast !

I wouldn't doubt that they would have pulled 90 years if they were doing a 90 year forecast.

Again, what am I suppose to do, praise these people? Their projections are ultimately wrong. You say that their work "does the job for the purpose they applied it to", well I disagree and all their incorrect forecasts have demonstrated that.

The 30-year forecast of world potential reserve growth prepared for the World Petroleum Assessment 2000 was based on reported field sizes as of the end of 1995. However, some fields in the Petroconsultants database and all fields in the NRG Associates Canadian database had a pre-1995 reporting date. In these cases, the reported field size was “adjusted” upward by growing the field from the reporting date to year-end 1995, prior to growing the field an additional 30 years beyond 1995 (see additional discussion in Appendix 1 of this chapter). In a few cases, the reported field size was as of mid-1996; accordingly, these fields were grown for 29 years (rather than 30 years) into the future.

I just looked at that paper, they only pulled 30 years because it was for a 30 year forecast ! I wouldn't doubt that they would have pulled 90 years if they were doing a 90 year forecast.

Certainly unless you were a part of that work, you don't have a clue as to their intent, for things they didn't do, now would you? For example, you mentioned Verma.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/b2172-d/B2172-D.pdf

Page 7. Point 7.

"Based on this observation, I decided to extrapolate the cumulative growth factor (CGF) curves for both oil and gas to the 95th year since discovery. No growth was assumed beyond 95 years, because of uncertainty from lack of data support."

So not only didn't he grow fields 30 years, if they were already 95 years old, he didn't grow them AT ALL. Quite nice and reasonable without any hint of just growing everything forever, and certainly no need of a function approaching an asymptote in the least. Dem boys sures sounds purty carefuls!

Again, what am I suppose to do, praise these people? Their projections are ultimately wrong. You say that their work "does the job for the purpose they applied it to", well I disagree and all their incorrect forecasts have demonstrated that.

You aren't required to praise anyone, but you don't need to denigrate their work just because they found a way to avoid the asymptotic problem you so badly want to pretend they missed.

Incorrect forecasts? Well, certainly even the great Hubbert missed more than a few, on pages 10 and 11 of that same reference we find that a basic comparison back then shows that they overshot on oil, and undershot on gas, for the US example.

I wonder who else in the world actually publishes estimates of such a critical number? Certainly there must be just SCADS of worldwide experts (like the ASPO gang perhaps?) who spend the odd afternoon tackling such a simple and easy to solve problem. How long did it take you to "solve" the problem? A weekend? Heck, its amazing that everyone else hasn't pinned down the answer to within 3 decimal points already!

As a matter of fact, do you know of ANYONE who has made a forecast at the levels and over the years like they have? Sort of hard to complain about how "wrong" they are when the rest of the world is scared to even play the game, IMHO.

Starting to spin I see. What you say makes no sense. Not much data occurred from 95 years ago, winding back that puts it in the time frame circa 1900. I duplicated their curves a few years ago so I think I understand their intent (as far as science cares anything about "intent" is concerned).

Moreover, they do not know how to deal with censored data. Censored data is data that has gaps within its time frame. Huge gaps exist in the reserve growth data due to missing information in a specific reservoir's life-span. The USGS analysts never mentioned this even though it can have a huge impact on their interpretation.

What may not be apparent to people reading this discussion is that most reserve growth comes about from horrible initial estimates of potential recoverable oil from a reservoir. I would suggest that the USGS start using a model of reserve growth based on Dispersive Discovery. Doing statistics based on an underlying model will do wonders for estimates because it will fill in some of the missing pieces, and allow us to not get into this predicament of wildly wrong projections.

As a matter of fact, do you know of ANYONE who has made a forecast at the levels and over the years like they have?

No, and I think that is the problem. People evidently took all that information as gospel, never questioned it, and largely remained oblivious to oil depletion concerns.

This comment rubs me the wrong way because you keep on making it sound like the USGS made wonderful projections, while we know that they largely turned out wrong and heavily biased toward a cornucopian outlook. Perhaps recently they have started to get closer to reality (out of necessity), but you posted that link to the Nile Delta USGS assessment and I figured some context was needed.

BTW, Does everyone realize that the MMS does not do any assessment simulation of offshore reserves?

Assessment of Undiscovered Technically Recoverable Oil and Gas Resources of the Nation’s Outer Continental Shelf, 2006 (MMS Fact Sheet RED-2006-01b, February 2006) http://www.mms.gov/revaldiv/PDFs/2006NationalAssessmentBrochure.pdf

Gulf of Mexico Oil & Gas Production Forecast: 2007-2016 (OCS Report, MMS 2007-020) http://www.gomr.mms.gov/PDFs/2007/2007-020.pdf

and for the record, on Monte Carlo reserves hooey
The Tragedy of 21 Darts http://www.cwsx.org/21darts.pdf

This is the info I got from a MMS insider last year, and why I said the MMS does not do simulation models (which is the stuff I play around with):

The MMS has mapped virtually all of the ~10,000 reservoirs that either exist today or have existed in the recent past in the GoM outer continental shelf. Our estimates are also snapshots in time. They are revisited on an annual basis once production begins to compare original estimates, which are typically made after the initial discovery well has been drilled and some or all of the delineation wells with anticipated well/reservoir performance (we do not do simulation work, we are too small; having less than 1,000 people [we are also the second largest source of US Federal Government revenue, with only the IRS exceeding us, and on a per employee basis, there is no comparison]). Consequently, the reserves of some reservoirs and ultimately fields appreciate significantly from when we initially appraise them. However, others decline due to poorer than predicted well/reservoir performance. While companies often monitor their reservoirs/fields today in real time, we cannot, we have too much to monitor. However, our data is published, theirs is not.
...
Again, thanks for doing such a good job.

I have seen that 21 Darts paper before. Good stuff. I do Monte Carlo simulations as well, but only to support my analytical simulations (see here for one I did a few days ago).
It looks as if Mr. von Altendorf has not heaped sufficient praise on USGS either.

It looks as if Mr. von Altendorf has not heaped sufficient praise on USGS either.

But he certainly uses their numbers to rank the international provinces they did an analysis on, now doesn't he? And not a critical word that I could find about the geologic work behind it, whats really amusing is he uses THEIR quality control study to say that "gee, things aren't being found as fast as the 2000 World Assessment claimed".

So to recap, not only do people use their geologic work without reproach, they use their estimates to rank productive areas because no one else has the balls to put their own estimates out there, and when they want to know how well those estimates are going, they reference internal quality control publications proving that the same people making the estimates are testing them as they unfold! Maybe instead of using the words "premiere" science agency I should call them an "unparalleled" science agency?

From a petroleum engineers standpoint, I like Altendorf's work. Except that anyone who quotes Simmons in nearly anything related to the technical side of the industry is suspect by association.

You keep on praising the USGS for the "balls" that they have. If they actually had balls, then they would have had the courage to do the analysis correctly and written up the reality of oil depletion in one of their fact sheets. Yet, on the usgs.gov site, you really see nothing on peak oil that is not in some way hedged with qualifiers.

Apparently 100 person-years of effort on the 2000 assessment and they didn't have the courage to lay it out cleanly.

You keep on praising the USGS for the "balls" that they have. If they actually had balls, then they would have had the courage to do the analysis correctly and written up the reality of oil depletion in one of their fact sheets.

I am a pragmatic guy and respect people who stick their necks out and attempt to answer a question which no one else has the "balls" to even attempt, let alone air out the dirty laundry in the form of publications on postmortem quality control. As far as doing the analysis correctly, thats your opinion. My opinion is that both of you are doing the same thing.

As far as depletion, when I am certain you know what it is, I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.

As far as peak oil on their website, or the caveats they have in their documentation, for the uninformed its called "good technical writing" when you actually say what you mean well enough that internet experts can't come along and pretend that just because you don't have an asymptote, that can only mean you believe in infinite projections of reserve growth.

I have been on this site long enough to know that I am probably one of the few contributors to be able to go toe-to-toe with you on this topic. Lots of people think it is too deep and that the math is over their heads, so they won't wade in. Well, the math goes with the territory. So when you say that the USGS is doing the same thing that I am seems to diminish the significance of my goal of placing it in a more formal context. I can't see how we are doing it the same way since I have a model and they don't. The devil remains in the details.

As far as depletion, when I am certain you know what it is, I will be more than happy to discuss it with you.

Go ahead, feel free to discuss whenever you are certain, because I can't be certain about when you are certain.

As far as peak oil on their website, or the caveats they have in their documentation, for the uninformed its called "good technical writing" when you actually say what you mean well enough that internet experts can't come along and pretend that just because you don't have an asymptote, that can only mean you believe in infinite projections of reserve growth.

Lots of natural growth processes don't have a discernible asymptote. Diffusional growth, for example, has what looks like a diminishing return that nevertheless never converges to an asymptotic limit. The problem is that optimists such as Michael Lynch use the lack of an easily pinned down asymptote to argue for huge potential reserves. Such as here:

"Forecasting oil supply: theory and practice", Michael C. Lynch,The Quarterly Review of Economics and Finance 42 (2002) 373–389

Some modelers have argued that URR can be estimated using so-called “creaming curves”
which show discovery size by companies or in a nation, such as the UK, to demonstrate the asymptote(Laherrere, 1999). However, this is misleading because they compare current
estimates of field size for discoveries of many different periods. This is like comparing
acorns and oak trees; naturally the latter are bigger, but that doesn’t prove that the former are
destined to always be smaller. Using a given data base of field sizes seems to always yield
an asymptote, but the asymptote moves over time.

Fortunately the USGS is more pessimistic than Lynch on most things, but Lynch does feed on FUD when it comes to his projections. The claims that Michael Lynch was making regarding lack of asymptotes was what got me interested in this topic a few years ago. That eventually lead me to the USGS work, which never did put this issue to bed.

I can't see how we are doing it the same way since I have a model and they don't. The devil remains in the details.

As it always is. As far as your model, well, perhaps you would be willing to explain the value difference between a model..which fits one line to another...and a function....which fits one line to another? And why I just wouldn't use Excel to do it instead of making up something more complicated, no matter which it is?

As far as depletion, the uncertainty is not mine. Is there any reason why when you talk about oil depletion, you imply that people haven't been familiar with it since, say, before you and I were born? For example, depletion was something covered by Federal Statute in 1918 (Hiestand, Thomas C., 1960, Application of Geology In Computing Depletion of Producing Properties, AAPG Bulletin, Vol. 44, Number 4, p. 409-422) and accounted for by depreciating a given property subject to it. Does your concept of people not knowing about depletion mean they can't read such a statute, are ignorant of the concept itself, or does the clock start only after they google peak oil and get one of the more hysterical representations of the topic?

As far as who stands with who toe to toe...well...lets just say that you are more familiar with some of the established research than others and let it go at that.

I don't see any functions either actually, only parametric estimators at best.

I am not seriously going to look that federal statute up. I would appreciate seeing more hysterical and less legal discussions of the topic. It would get people off their butt and really start to think.

I don't see any functions either actually, only parametric estimators at best.

Fine. What do you believe the value difference is between their parametric estimator and your "model" might be? And why shouldn't I just dismiss both and use Excel?

I am not seriously going to look that federal statute up. I would appreciate seeing more hysterical and less legal discussions of the topic. It would get people off their butt and really start to think.

While I myself certainly require a minimal level of understanding prior to building models, functions or parametric estimators for something, I understand that others may not.

The intent of my question was first to demonstrate that depletion has been argued about prior to our birth, and second that the implication of its concealment from regular people investigating the topic is invalid.

My model is based on first-principles and some basic logic. If you want to read a painfully clear explanation of one aspect of the model, read this blog post I wrote just this past week:
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/06/oil-discovery-simulation-realit...

I stuck in a Monte Carlo simulation because some people appreciate that. Funny that you should mention Excel, because I put the simulation on a Google Spreadsheet. Interesting if you can find any fault with this model, beyond trying to add some perhaps unwarranted complexity.

The belief system will divide naturally into two camps. Those people that buy into the model, and those that don't.

My model is based on first-principles and some basic logic.

Really? Perhaps you could tell us what a first principle of reserve growth might be? Clastic vs carbonate formations? Deep versus shallow? NOC operation versus some small independent? Secondary and tertiary development after a certain period of time post discovery? The oil gravity, or basic rock properties such as porosity and permeability? Wetting phase of the reservoir? Trapping mechanism? Proximity to source rock? The economics and/or level of technology available upon discovery versus what was available at some later period of time? Correlations between growth and activity?

And where might you have inserted the disorder to make the modeling of all these first order principles easier?

I stuck in a Monte Carlo simulation because some people appreciate that. Funny that you should mention Excel, because I put the simulation on a Google Spreadsheet. Interesting if you can find any fault with this model, beyond trying to add some perhaps unwarranted complexity.

Fault with it? It would be incomprehensible if I didn't already have a suspicion about what you think it is supposed to do. Apparently you built a really neato bell shaped curve generator. Hubbert has you beat 6 ways from Sunday....find some grid paper...grab a french curve and draw the thing. Not a computer in sight. Hows that for less complexity?

I nearly lost it on this quote though: "common sense Peak oil theory", that has to be the most hysterical thing I've read in this entire thread. What the hell is common sense peak oil theory? Is that the dieoff, tractors sitting in the fields for lack of fuel, gasoline shortages, what?

All those things you mention have to aggregate to some mean velocity. The mean velocity can't be infinite nor can it be zero. It has to be some finite value. Well, you take that value and you apply the maximum entropy principle to it and you will get some distribution of rates. Then you can start doing experiments such as breakthrough curves of solutes to see how well it works.

Here is a write-up on dispersion related to the very complex physical behaviors that you wish to see included:
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/word-on-dispersion.html

In a hydraulic conductivity experiment, Lange treated the breakthrough curve of a trace element through a natural catchment as a FPE convection-dispersion model, and came up with the same results independent of the fractionation of the media.

Here is a typical fit of entropic dispersion on a breakthrough curve. The blue line is a the model and it likely works on all kinds of disordered systems, of which encompass a large composition of the earth:

You can find this entire framework that I have set up hysterical if you want, it really doesn't bother me. I can sift through the responses to make my argument that much more solid.

All those things you mention have to aggregate to some mean velocity. The mean velocity can't be infinite nor can it be zero. It has to be some finite value. Well, you take that value and you apply the maximum entropy principle to it and you will get some distribution of rates.

Can you explain the velocity of porosity? How does a clastic rock have a velocity? How do you measure the velocity of economics? In dollars? $/mph? Are you advocating actually MOVING an oilfield prior to estimating its reserve growth potential?

In neither case did I see any of these first order items I listed anywhere in your reserve growth work. Can you point them out?

You can find this entire framework that I have set up hysterical if you want, it really doesn't bother me. I can sift through the responses to make my argument that much more solid.

I'm still trying to understand how you do any of this stuff without actually knowing something about the thing being studied...and then claim to solve these problems from first order principles....without actually knowing any of them. Don't you actually have to HAVE a first order principle to solve with, or can you just make them all up and not worry about the connection to the real world? For example, if you don't actually use first order principles, how do you know if rock properites are more or less important to the overall answer than the number of times a welltender picks his nose in the vicinity of the oilfield?

If I actually gave you the first order rock properties I listed previously, or some of them, could you tell me what the reserve growth would be from that particular field?

The material or solute moving through the porous volume has a velocity. In my world, this is a probability density function of possible velocities, not just a single velocity as Darcy's equation will tell you.

Labor productivity can have a velocity. You get probability density functions of various learning curves. I did this for a significant fraction of the Japanese labor force and the results are amazing. Not every worker has the same ability and so this gets reflected in the distribution, ponder this post of mine : http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/04/extracting-learning-curve-in-la.... This has all sorts of applications in economics.

Human travel of course has a velocity. You get a distribution of rates corresponding to what mode of transportation people use, such as cars and airplanes and how far apart the transit points are. Entropy still rules and you also see an amazing agreement to the simple dispersion formulation http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2009/10/verifying-dispersion-in-human-m.... This has all sorts of applications in transportation studies.

The first-principles is all about trying to find the measurable rates that can show dispersion. From there you just have to think of how to apply it to the problem you are trying to solve.

Think about the kinds of declines you will see on an oil field: they could be exponential, or hyperbolic, or a harmonic (which is actually just hyperbolic). Well, what do you know, but the hyperbolic decline just happens to come about from applying dispersion to the more fundamental exponential decline. Voila, you have just applied the Maximum Entropy formulation to solve the problem that has long stumped reservoir engineers. You are a lucky man, because you a Petroleum Engineer and I have just given you the keys to the kingdom.

I solve this stuff like some people solve crossword puzzles. Its not that I am that smart, but because I think differently. We have to get used to a new way of thinking, and that is my belief system.

My, this is getting interesting. Can't wait for the rest of the story.

I duplicated their curves a few years ago so I think I understand their intent (as far as science cares anything about "intent" is concerned)

You were the one who said that if they did a 90 year forecast they would use 90 years of curve. The model used in 1995 didn't do this, and Verma provides specific evidence that he didn't do this. You might be confused about the practical application of their function, but they certainly are not.

Science includes reading the instruction manual for how to use it, and not just assuming the people who did the work were ignorant, and/or geologists, because someone would rather skip that part.

What may not be apparent to people reading this discussion is that most reserve growth comes about from horrible initial estimates of potential recoverable oil from a reservoir.

I will do you one better. ALL reserve growth is because of bad initial estimates of recoverable volumes. In a perfect, all knowing, all seeing world, there would be no such thing as reserve growth. We don't live in that world.

I would suggest that the USGS start using a model of reserve growth based on Dispersive Discovery.

Of course you would. Myself, I am always suspicious when some process is advertised as "new and improved" when what that means is doing the same job with additional complexity and no other improvement.

"As a matter of fact, do you know of ANYONE who has made a forecast at the levels and over the years like they have?"

No, and I think that is the problem. People evidently took all that information as gospel, never questioned it, and largely remained oblivious to oil depletion concerns.

So now you are arguing that they did their job so well that no one has published their version, and results, of the better mousetrap? You would think that the anti-USGS brigades would just love to spend an afternoon, dream up another curve fitting routine accurate to 3 significant digits, and smack them in the chops with it. If they could.

This comment rubs me the wrong way because you keep on making it sound like the USGS made wonderful projections, while we know that they largely turned out wrong and heavily biased toward a cornucopian outlook.

The USGS makes projections, their "wonderfulness" is a relative term, and probably irrelevant in light of the fact that they are the only group with balls enough to make them. I provided the example where Verma quantifies exactly how big "wrong" was, do you have any mathematical equation determining how "right" predicting the future must be before it isn't "wrong" anymore? The USGS is one of the countries, perhaps the worlds, premiere science agencies. What cause do you have to again classify their intent as heavily biased? Certainly you haven't mentioned a single cornucopian bias in their reserve growth methods, you just don't like their bounding mechanism. If they were as biased as you claim, they would have run their function to the moon and back. They didn't.

Perhaps recently they have started to get closer to reality (out of necessity), but you posted that link to the Nile Delta USGS assessment and I figured some context was needed.

That had nothing to do with reserve growth, it was simply an example of some of the work they do with resources, not reserves. The only context I can see so far is that they do work no one else does, providing estimates others won't even attempt, and put it all out there free of charge.

BTW, Does everyone realize that the MMS does not do any assessment simulation of offshore reserves?

Really? Considering that MMS doesn't really exist anymore, your comment appears a little suspicious.

http://www.mms.gov/ooc/pdfs/DOI_pressrelease/SecretaryOrder3299.pdf

Like I said before they didn't use the 90 year curves because they were only doing 30 year forecasts. I noticed that they didn't go beyond that because they rationalized "things would change". Yet the basis for the 30-year forecasts were these asymptote-free curves, which must inspire confidence. Perhaps they didn't do the 90-year forecasts because they would have really looked stupid, instead of just 1/3 as stupid?

I did verify the algorithm that the USGS used (note that it is an algorithm, not a model):
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2008/07/role-of-dispersive-discovery-in...

Those are the data points that I transcribed from tables in the journal that I went to the local library to check out. (The blue line was a fit that I made assuming a dispersive discovery model of reserve growth progressive estimates) I was able to reproduce their upward glitch at the 90 year mark according to the model-free algorithm they used. Yes that was a lot of work but you have to do that because science is partly about reproducing others work before you can make your own claims.

The USGS makes projections, their "wonderfulness" is a relative term, and probably irrelevant in light of the fact that they are the only group with balls enough to make them. I provided the example where Verma quantifies exactly how big "wrong" was, do you have any mathematical equation determining how "right" predicting the future must be before it isn't "wrong" anymore? The USGS is one of the countries, perhaps the worlds, premiere science agencies. What cause do you have to again classify their intent as heavily biased? Certainly you haven't mentioned a single cornucopian bias in their reserve growth methods, you just don't like their bounding mechanism. If they were as biased as you claim, they would have run their function to the moon and back. They didn't.

The point is that they are pulling old data out to make projections. The original discovered amounts were obviously wrong. So they used censored data from the last 20 to 30 years (from the 1990's) to try to figure out how much those discoveries grew. The algorithm they used was the algorithm they used, no denying that, but do we trust that using censored data would give projections on future reserve growth that would be correct?

Bias is a statistical term and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with prejudice or whatever you are implying. They may have introduced bias by not doing censoring correctly, or by taking the start of the first estimates incorrectly. Since reserve growth factor depends on the first estimate in the denominator, if you get this wrong it can be way off. This leads to the kind of optimistic bias that I am talking about.

The model I have for dispersive discovery is very simple, and it is based on the methods of Maximum Entropy ala Jaynes. Uncertainty in predicting current reserves at any point in time leads to an asymptotic form that goes like:
R(time) = U0/(1+k/time)
This is very simple and I can't speak for why no one in the trillions of $ petrochemical industry hasn't figured this out before. Check it out, put in a value of time=0 and the R(Time) goes to zero; put in a large value of time and the value goes to U0, the asymptotic value.

I think they were out of their league when it comes to statistics and modeling. They were bad at statistics and had no model to begin with.

No reason for anyone to be an apologist for the USGS. I wouldn't consider them one of the world's most premiere science agencies. I just reviewed a book written by one of their former staffers, Steven Gorelick. I titled the blog post "Worst Book on Oil Crisis Yet Written":
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/worst-book-on-oil-crisis-writte...
My point is that the USGS has failed to relay any realistic projections to the public, and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why this is the case.

About the MMS, I received that email message from last year in April, as I stated in the comment. How could that be suspicious?

No reason for anyone to be an apologist for the USGS. I wouldn't consider them one of the world's most premiere science agencies. I just reviewed a book written by one of their former staffers, Steven Gorelick. I titled the blog post "Worst Book on Oil Crisis Yet Written":

Gorelicks experience with the USGS was in Water Resources, and what, some quarter century ago? Did you find any references for him within the actual groups which have been doing resource evaluation since the 70's, or is this just analagous to the books written by cops and bankers pretending to understand the oil business and geosciences? I haven't read his book, so I have no comment on its validity.

My point is that the USGS has failed to relay any realistic projections to the public, and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why this is the case.

So when they publish their reserve growth work, their resource work, their quality control documents, equations, logic and the manual on how they used it, and made quite reasonable projections as demonstrated by the work of Verma, putting this all out for free on the WWW isn't relaying the information to the public? So the public is too ignorant to google this stuff up like you and I have been doing?

Googling "peak oil" on site:usgs.gov, this is the first pub that comes up, a slide presentation
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/ofr-03-137/OF03-137.pdf

(USGS Open-File Report 03-137)

Much has been discussed about the future of oil, and to a lesser degree natural gas, in
relation to world energy use. Two groups are often contrasted. These are known as the optimists
and the pessimists, or sometimes as the cornucopians and the catastrophists. The term
“Malthusians” is also sometimes used for the pessimists.

What is the public to make out of this? Apparently it took a lot of guts to refer to a pessimist as a "catastrophist" or a "Malthusian".

What is the public to make out of this? Apparently it took a lot of guts to refer to a pessimist as a "catastrophist" or a "Malthusian".

That the topic is more difficult than most people might imagine? That estimates of things vary widely? That some of the creaming curves used by the likes of Laherrere don't work in certain provinces, and the USGS knows this even if the author doesn't mention it himself? That trendology is easy, and can be deceptive?

Strikes me that there was all sorts of things in there...and searching the document for the word "peak" only discovered it in the references. You aren't seriously suggesting that a single general description on one of the first pages, which had no reference to peak oil, defines the presentation as a whole?

But why did he not have the guts to choose the term "realist" instead of the derogatory terms of "catastrophist" or "Malthusian"? These have such negative connotations.

Reasoning under uncertainty is not "trendology". A model-based approach makes it trend-neutral. One of my goals has been to make oil depletion analysis more formal so that we don't get accused of simply following trends. This is what the slide says:

“Trendology” is here considered to be the use of fairly simple statistical extrapolation without consideration of many complicating factors. Many prominent pessimists are trendologists, but that approach is by no means confined to pessimists.

So he paints a broad brush against pessimists. Reading between the lines, it is obvious that he is not a pessimist, otherwise this would implicate himself. Again, lots of courage shown by the USGS.

But why did he not have the guts to choose the term "realist" instead of the derogatory terms of "catastrophist" or "Malthusian"? These have such negative connotations.

What do guts have to do with word choice? Certainly I would not confuse catastrophist or Malthusian with a realist...I don't consider them the same, why would you?

One of my goals has been to make oil depletion analysis more formal so that we don't get accused of simply following trends.

So what the hell does THAT mean? Your reserve growth work exactly follows trends, have you studied something resembling oil depletion at the reservoir level somewhere that I didn't notice on your website?

As far as a broad brush against pessimists, I didn't see anything faintly resembling that interpretation. Your quote from the author says that trendology doesn't consider many complicating factors, and the author would be exactly correct in that regard. No courage required to accurately state the obvious.

He didn't use the term realist because that would go against BAU. He essentially mocked the pessimists by choosing those euphemisms.

So what the hell does THAT mean? Your reserve growth work exactly follows trends, have you studied something resembling oil depletion at the reservoir level somewhere that I didn't notice on your website?

Concerning my website, I don't focus exclusively on oil depletion. I do lots of applied mathematics, and try to apply what I consider very useful mathematical approaches to generate models of various physical phenomenon and behaviors. I already linked further up the thread, but this is the post I wrote yesterday: http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/06/mentaculus.html

It will probably seem counter-intuitive to you, but you can indeed model many behaviors without knowing exactly the details of the phenomena you are interested in. This probably goes under the category of "reasoning under uncertainty" but I use the ideas of Maximum Entropy to fill in the missing unknowns.

One other really neat breakthrough I came up with recently is solving the Fokker-Planck equation for disordered systems. The Fokker-Planck diffusion/advection equation is at the heart of many physical process, including providing the physics for how Darcy's Law gets derived for petroleum engineering.
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/fokker-planck-for-disordered-sy...
The key point is that many of these seemingly complicated processed get simplified as disorder is introduced. The statistics become much more predictable and you no longer need to worry about the details of the process. The entropy introduced by disorder does the work for you.

This also works for many human behaviors such as estimating economic discounting and gauging productivity, much like what the oil companies due in estimating oil reserves! So it really becomes a comprehensive model that explains quite a lot about systems that we understand little about and have uncertainty in the distribution of outcomes. Right now my approach serves as a hammer that I can use to pound a bunch of different nails into.

You can believe all this or not, but I keep tabs on all my progress on the web site, so I hope the results speak for themselves. BTW, no one else is doing the math exactly the same as me, so don't think that I am singling out geologists for not formulating this approach. Unlike oil, there are plenty of new ideas left to discover.

He didn't use the term realist because that would go against BAU. He essentially mocked the pessimists by choosing those euphemisms.

According to the paper he didn't choose these terms at all; he reported that they were in use. So he's a wise guy; big deal.

The terms he actually considered in his discussion were "trendologist" and "non-trendologist". His meaning for "non-trendologist" was someone who considers the geologic and economic complexity of the situation as well as the past history.

I don't recall hearing "catastrophist" used too widely. He could have chosen doomer.

Come to think of it, I had never heard the term trendologist either. I think "curve fitter".

If he considers the geologic and economic complexity, then he is modeling. So both sides are even in this regard.

He didn't use the term realist because that would go against BAU. He essentially mocked the pessimists by choosing those euphemisms.

So now you know WHY the author chose his words? Do you know him personally? Did he reveal his intent through some sort of personal communication? Or is this just more WAG?

The key point is that many of these seemingly complicated processed get simplified as disorder is introduced. The statistics become much more predictable and you no longer need to worry about the details of the process. The entropy introduced by disorder does the work for you.

Not being a gifted mathematician/statistician, I will have to stick to at least attempting to understand a process prior to modeling it, let alone purposely introducing disorder into it just for fun.

BTW, no one else is doing the math exactly the same as me, so don't think that I am singling out geologists for not formulating this approach.

You haven't been singling out geologists, because they aren't geologists, and you are right, they certainly didn't do the math like you.

So now you know WHY the author chose his words? Do you know him personally? Did he reveal his intent through some sort of personal communication? Or is this just more WAG?

The United States Geological Survey geologist referred to pessimists as Malthusians and catastrophists and trendologists. In over five years of blogging and commenting, I have yet to write anything about doom and everything I do is based on mathematical physics w/o any heuristic curve fitting. I will leave it at that.

The disorder entered into the model is that of Maximum Entropy. The classical example of this is assuming that the standard deviation of some quantity equals the mean if all you know is the mean. In physics, this is called statistical mechanics. You can do all sorts of other calculations with this approach, including estimating how frequently a certain wind speed will occur. And to correct your misinterpretation, I do the work for fun, I don't purposely create disorder for fun, nature does that for me.

In over five years of blogging and commenting, I have yet to write anything about doom and everything I do is based on mathematical physics w/o any heuristic curve fitting. I will leave it at that.

I get the impression that you think this non-heuristic deal of yours is a good thing? For example, I solve specific problems, big ones, little ones, do you have any demonstration of how well your model will help me solve them, such as estimating the reserve growth of a particular field, from first order principles? Will mathematical physics and your reserve growth work tell me which of the first order principles are more important than any other, or which are correlated and which are independent?

Enter a mean search rate (r) through the volume and an estimated mean volume (v). Then you can derive an average time constant T that relates the two means: r*T=v.

This won't necessarily tell you the total reserve growth, but you can get the time profile of the likely reserve growth profile by the Maximum Entropy distribution function:

R(t) = U0/(1+T/t)

I predict that you will say "That's it?"

Well, in response to that, Ohm's Law for electrical conduction is not that complicated either. And I have applied this formulation to amorphous photoconductors, where I can get the equivalent time-of-flight for disordered transport, a new kind of Ohm's Law for photovoltaic material. It's just a little more complicated because it solves the Fokker-Planck equation:
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/characterizing-mobility-in-diso...

The epiphany and realization that has occurred to me studying disordered systems is that they share a common behavioral mechanism whenever it comes to tracking some sort of rate, be it electrical mobility, solute mobility, search rates, thermal conductivity, wind speed, etc. And since many of these disordered systems, such as amorphous silicon for photovoltaics, wind energy, and heat exchangers will become important methods to supplant our current energy sources, this opens up a whole new field if study. Yet these systems are all what you would consider "crappy" or at least suboptimal. The disorder is so great that it is barely tolerable, and you have to think of ways to deal with it.

So that is the whole philosophy, and when you consider a single reservoir that may have all sorts of heterogeneities in its make-up, then you have to use a suitably analysis for this disorder. Nature has a habit of not making everything perfect, and it recruits the principle of entropy to preserve this disorder.

After I started working this whole approach, I came across a great book by Murray Gell-Mann called the "The Quark and the Jaguar". I wrote about this in a key TOD post called "Information and Crude Complexity" http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5949
This is an inspirational book because Gell-Mann has done a good job in convincing his readers that complex systems often show a fundamental simplicity that belies intuition.

No reason for anyone to be an apologist for the USGS. I wouldn't consider them one of the world's most premiere science agencies. I just reviewed a book written by one of their former staffers, Steven Gorelick. I titled the blog post "Worst Book on Oil Crisis Yet Written":
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2010/05/worst-book-on-oil-crisis-writte...

Hey, I had a summer job at the USGS while I was a student. Go ahead and take another cheap shot at them every time I write something dumb.

My point is that the USGS has failed to relay any realistic projections to the public, and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why this is the case.

Who has? Do you think it's possible to do so with usable accuracy?

The easily-downloaded reports we're discussing here are all secondary and tertiary sources. They don't explain the methods or the assumptions that inform their results. I'd like to know, for example, how their data aggregation method dealt with fields that had been completely abandoned. I'd like to see how they corrected for changes in the price of oil.

I'd like to know, for example, how their data aggregation method dealt with fields that had been completely abandoned. I'd like to see how they corrected for changes in the price of oil.

When Verma did his comparison:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/b2172-d/B2172-D.pdf

he said the following, Page 8, first full paragraph:

"They are tabulated in such a way that the original and subsequently revised KPVs of all the fields for each year since discovery are shown in columns from left to right in table 1."

"ALL fields for each year" seems to cover it...everything is in the mix.

The word "price" is only used once in the entire document, there is no text which says anything was corrected for price.

Yeah, It can be done.

Yesterday, Ron posted some data from Norway updating their production numbers:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6589#comment-647417

I placed the data on my prediction for Norway from a few years ago and you can see how it fits.

This is all model based, BTW. The USGS can choose to do stuff like this if they really want to.

I never put my trust in the man made systems around us. For me nothing has changed I still Believe in Christ, what has changed is that now I have proof why we should never trust man's wisdom over God's wisdom.

But that being said, I know people that are being shaken to their cores with all the ills going on in the world, and how some of them are scared for themselves and others around them. To many of them Trusted the Gov't of the USA to be there to watch their backs. When you know that systems of Gov't are made up of people, and that people by and large start to watch out for themselves over time. You understand that the system will fail more often than not.

I know that I am not prefect, that I get selfish from time to time, that my actions aren't on a level that can be trusted to not hurt others. Even my dad who really tries to watch out for others, can be prone to be selfish, and he is the best example I have to base my ideas on. My parents still fuss and fight about opinions and such, and when I see that happen I realize that human nature is not going to solve our problems.

Now to your questions.

1. see above.

2. The only way to even things out, is to make sure everyone gets at least the needs of the day met. The USA still has a homeless population, people that fell through the cracks in the system, to many good people don't want homeless people in their nieghborhoods, I see that a lot around here. Where a homeless person or even a person that is not homeless but is on the edge of being so, is being slowly pushed away from the general population because they are not wanted by the rest of the population, like homelessness is a sickness you might catch.

When landlords price houses out of the market for a decent living wage to support. Right now 40 million people living on food stamps, and half that number living without work, and being marginalized. Thousands of homes empty while people live under bridges, or in shabby trailers because that is all they can afford. There is no easy way to say, wave the magic wand and everyone has a nice house, food on the table and a job to go too.

I'd like to see more land available to build sustainable housing on, and put some of my designs to use. There are other people out there who have sustainable living arrangements waiting to get more land for use. There are some programs out there that help the homeless, and programs that help people get affordable housing, more funding to them would be a start in the right direction.

3, Recent events are bringing more of the this plight to the forefront of US minds. Less american Idol more plight of your fellow man. Not nearly enough though. Still too many people walk the other way when they see something they don't like happening.

My $0.019125 worth, an inflation adjusted number.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
hugs from arkansas.

Charles,
No personal disrespect intended but I must tell you
that the Christians I know are positively brimming over with unjustified self-confidence in their own judgements, filled with pride and buoyed up by their 'special relationship' with God.

They are not humble or modest in the slightest.
They seem incapable of shame.

You only need read the Gospel to see how far they have departed from the maxims of their Founder.

If a "Christian" does not reflect Christ. Then... he's not a "Christian". Imagine some guy who runs for office as a Libertarian, but proposes the socialization of all industry and financial and education institutions. You'd not call him a "libertarian" for long, would you?

Same with anyone who does not follow what Christ espoused. Not Christian, simple enough.

As I have stated elsewhere, I don't agree with many mainstream Christians on a lot of ecological things. I am not for paving the earth, just because God handed it to us. I can't see where Christ would have done the things that people have done in his name for a lot of the years since he was here. And he did warn his disciples that there would be people using his name, that would not get into heaven when the time came for that. False teachers abound even in todays world. On a personal level I have been dealing with someone that was hoodwinked by a few of them recently.

You will know them by their love, is a maxim that you should judge them by, even judging me by the same token.

None of us gets out of here alive, but it is how we live that matters the most to those around us. When you see someone pointing to the cross around their neck, let them know if they are doing Christ a disservice or not, in how they act, getting told by their fellow citizens might be good for them.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas.

Charles -- I enjoy your posts, but I'd be remiss if I didn't add this: Life is much less complicated if you respect someone because he or she is a "Good moral person" rather than by saying "You're a good Christian person." One of our contractors got caught flatfooted when he told that to my wife and she replied "I'm a Buddhist."

Morality, respect, and a good approach to your fellow human beings has nothing to do with religion.

You're absolutely right that "how we live matters the most to those around us." It has to do with how we live, not how we pray, and not who your God is.

Just sayin'.

Morality, respect, and a good approach to your fellow human beings has nothing to do with religion.

I beg to disagree with that one. Not, because religion is required for a person to have those qualities, it isn't. But because the teachings of various religions have a great deal to do with whether their adherents have those qualities. This applies in both the positive and negative aspects. Even within the same broad religious traditional some subbranches may take a broad view, whereas others have complete distain for unbelievers.

Evolutionary psychology holds what we consider to be morality is probably hard-wired into the human brain by our genetics, and is a survival characteristic.

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/Abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19830170104

http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2007/02/genetics-of-altruism.html

We already have evidence from brain scans and studies of identical twins that some forms of belief in religion are influenced by genetics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/13/religion.scienceandnature

Evolutionary psychology holds what we consider to be morality is probably hard-wired into the human brain by our genetics, and is a survival characteristic

We already have evidence from brain scans and studies of identical twins that some forms of belief in religion are influenced by genetics.

I didn't mean to say otherwise. My point is that since most religions seek to define right/wrong moral/immoral, to the extent that adherents take the teachings seriously these aspects are enhanced or suppressed and/or diverted into other forms of behavior. A characteristic can be innate, but still be modified by cultural factors. And once morality is culturally encoded it can become difficult for other cultures to recognize. Consider the Japanese attitude towards POWs during WWII. They were applying morality as their Bushido religious code demanded, and useed it to judge the worth of soldiers who surrender. To us they were simply brutal and sadistic. Culture and religion can substantially alter the expression of morality. A primitive tribe with a primitive religion may sacrifice captured outsiders -or virgins to placate the gods. They are doing this because of some notion of what it takes for their society to survive (avoid devine retribution), i.e. they are doing it because of a moral commitment to the good of their tribe.

Waterplanner,

I try hard to give everyone a fair shake, everyone starts out on an even keel with me. That fact has driven a wedge between me and one of my female friends, because she tells me I must be saying that she is wrong, when I defend someone I don't know even as her dealings with them have been negative. Too many times people say things that others get wrong, and opinions are made and people are judged in a split second. I try to keep my mind open as to what might be going on in situations that I hear about second hand. If I meet someone face to face, I am pretty good at reading body language. I also keep my eyes focused on a persons face and their eyes as much as possible, which can bother some people, and surprises others.

I also try to never assume the beliefs of another, I have met to many people who don't fit into the molds that people put them into. I ask a lot of leading questions when I have someone to talk to in person, things that will open them up to talking, listening is the only way you can learn anything new from people beyond surface information.

But if you are a Christian, people will see how you act and judge you by it, labeling you whether you like them to do so or not. Living in the bible belt as it were, I have had more people assume I was a Christian even if I have said nothing concerning it, than I have living anywhere else.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future,
Hugs From a hot humid Arkansas.

But if you are a Christian, people will see how you act and judge you by it

For many of us Christian is as much an identity as a religion. (I don't happen to be one, but by this definition I consider people who claim the identity to be part of the group). Admittedly many of these people may not be living the Christian life as you see it, but because they make strong claims to the identity, it affects the overall meaning of that identity for all.

When one bases one's decisions on dogma, one usually has difficulty admitting one is wrong.

My "beliefs" haven't changed at all. They are continuosly being reinforced and supported by events. I have often realised/admitted that I was wrong, but lately it really sucks being right.

Dogma is a danger, so is tradition. Lots of set in stone rules have to be weighted to see if they are for God's good or man's good, or if the dogma has been done so long people forgot why they were doing the action in the first place.

If I am wrong concerning something I say let me know. Not good to go through life with a kick me sign someone put on my back, have to have friends to let me know I have one there.

Reminds me on the time in highschool, they stuck a free year book sign on my back, when I was running an errand for a teacher. Someone had to point it out to me, and not take it for themselves.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas.

...it really sucks being right.

That may be an appropriate motto for the Oil Drum in general.

Lloyd

"Truth is a state of mind in which there is no contradiction. A person perceives his idea as true because he has heard no contradiction. The less one knows, the easier it is to be dogmatic and to be sure that what one knows is true. We tend to defend dogmatically as true the things we are taught, whereas the things we learn from experience and experiments tend to be properly couched in sometimes-contradictory reality."

Dogma is the parking brake of the mind.

(Un?) fortunately, my brake broke and my karma ran over my dogma.

The spill in the GOM has shown me there is a Stupendous amount of oil there. A 21" pipe have at a pressure of some 20,000 psi at the failed BOP is one hell of a gusher. Looks to me like the experts have severely underestimated the "proven" reserves in this case.

Had not some BP idiots taken all the possible shortcuts in safety they would be sitting pretty right now. A one month & $26 million over run looks mighty puny these days, does it not?

That's what belief systems are all about -- differences of opinion. Now that the spill has occurred and people get interested again in potential for oil, we will see people make knee-jerk pronouncements.

In reality, the only way to assess oil reserve potential is to do it statistically so that a single reservoir does not cloud your views. "Stupendous" has no meaning unless it is quantified with respect to some aggregate total.

Regarding questions 1-4, No, No, No, No

Have my beliefs changed - NO I would have said No to all of those many years back.

Gail -

The answer to your question as to whether businesses can be expected to regulate themselves should be self-evident: a resounding NO!

Throughout a career spanning over four decades, I have seen first-hand the environmental protection practices of American industry in those pre-environmental years of the 1950 and 1960s ..... it was essentially non-existent. And quite blatantly so. What they could get away with without overtly killing anybody, they did. The attitude was: everybody else is dumping stuff into the air, water, and ground, so why shouldn't we? For if not, then we'd be at a competitive disadvantage. Same old story. American industry fought tooth and nail against even the most minimal environmental regulation. Just can't trust the bastards.

No, we cannot depend on the oil supply everyone told us was available. That should be painfully obvious by now. Whether it be war in the Middle East or massive oil releases in the Gulf, the obtaining, processing, and distributing of our oil 'reserves' is becoming increasingly problematic on so many levels.

To answer your questions:

1) No, recent events have not changed my belief one iota. I believe that, whatever machinations are used to rationalize it, we are going to strip every molecule of available reduced carbon from this earth and burn it to produce energy until there is none left.

2) If there is any shift toward a different belief system, I think it will the exact opposite of increased sharing, and more toward increased clawing and scratching to get as much of the goodies for one's own whilst one can. War is part of this belief system, particularly in the US.

3) I see little if any opportunities from recent events. Sure, some people will exploit the situation for their own economic and/or political gain, but I have a very hard time seeing much good coming out of it for society in general (not that I'm all that sure there really is such a thing as an 'upper case' Society to begin with). It is all individuals looking after their own self interests.

Does anyone really believe that after all is said and done, that we are really going to cease drilling for oil in the deep water Gulf?

By the way, you have repeatedly harped on the huge amount of infrastructure needed to construct and maintain offshore wind power. Well, have you taken a good look at the size and complexity of those monstrous (and montrously ugly, in my opinion) support vessels that service the offshore oil platforms? In terms of technological complexity, comparing offshore wind to offshore oil is like comparing an ox cart to a space shuttle. Now how sustainable is offshore deep water oil?

Robert Rapier, who has considerable experience in the oil business, believes the BP spill will affect the oil industry the way 3 Mile Island affected the nuke power industry in the US. The risk to any oil company attempting deep water GOM, Atlantic OCS, or off California is too great a risk. BP faces a possible $100 billion bill for damages and clean up if clean up is even possible. The shock to their stock value is something no future CEO wants to be blamed for.

Something I'm working on:

1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?

"Yet another 'D'Oh!'.": So what else is new.

To quote myself elsewhere:
"Are we really that stupid that we not only can destroy our
planet-- our only home-- with intelligence and our own hands-- and
really fast-- including killing entire species/ecosystems, and risk
our own survival as a species in the process?

Or is our supposed intelligence the paradox that ultimately renders
the conditions that kill us off?"

From 'Are Humans Smarter Than Yeast' You Tube video:
"Understanding exponential growth as a fundamental driver of global
warming, environmental destruction, peak oil and natural gas, water
and arable land shortages, social decay, resource wars, etc.."
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM1x4RljmnE

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? For example, if there is going to be less, an attitude of sharing what we have might be helpful. Income Inequality in the US is very high. Is there a way we can even out this inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better?

The Tribe Of Pangaea...

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

T.O.P. :)

...Greater (sustainable) human energies (efforts) toward all roots-- grass and otherwise-- community, permaculture, redefinitions and/or debates around the concept/semantics of 'power', 'profit', 'debt' or 'money' etc.; localization/decentralization (at least where appropriate); all-inclusive-self-governance/("glocal" one-world/multiple localities self-governance); freedom-to-roam/increasing borderlessness for people (in keeping with the earth's systems as a whole, such as bird-migrations and climate); steady state economics/local currencies/community-ethical banks (no interest or fractional reserves perhaps?); increasing debates/redefinitions/critiques on technology-necessity-quality-approach/morals-and-ethics/mass-production(i.e.,factory farms)/work/overwork/meaningful-work/efficient-work/less-work/leisure/fun/play/nature/peace/peace-and-quiet/family; and so forth.

where is campfire? i got to go to bed. tomorrow I got to pick peas, shell them, blanch them and put them up. Plus there is squash, okra, cucumbers, and corn. me thinks most here just talk about getting ready for what is before us. I really wonder if folks know what it takes to become sustainable? Well, go out and look at the sunset. It's the most important part. Seth is defeating Horace. In a few hours it will all change. Then it is time to again get to work. Want to survive?

sleep well rube. i'm still putting seeds in the ground...corn-- cornmeal type-- this am & potato beds to turn tomorrow, seed potatoes came today; plan to get at it before light.

Damn!! And I can only find a few peapods so far. Lots of lettuce and spring onions,though. I must have started later than you did.

I won't survive on my pathetic little garden, but it's an excuse to get out and look at the sunset, at least.

But it's a start - it's a start! Keep on learning. Are you familiar w/ John Jeavons, "How to Grow More Vegetables: Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You Can Imagine" ? He's one of the best, his workshops and his book are the bible of serious sustainable ag types. He discusses the whole package - soils, microbial populations, water, adapting, what a family of 2, 4, 6, etc needs, charts to make it easy, he's really really good. http://www.growbiointensive.org

Gail,
Of course deregulation was a mistake, especially in a time of resource constraints.

Deregulation is only half the story.

The government fed those unleashed(unregulated) market forces by loosening the money supply.
Business got lower taxes and the government let the debt pile up so as to let the economy grow.
In capitalism, the investor is allowed to reap his gains but wage growth threatens an 'inflationary spiral'.
Economic inequality was justified by the idea that investors allocate better then the government leading
to the financial(imaginary where nobody makes anything) economy and globalization.

This was the Greenspan vision.

“Well, Brooksley, I guess you and I will never agree about fraud,” Born, in a recent interview, remembers Greenspan saying.

“What is there not to agree on?” Born says she replied.

“Well, you probably will always believe there should be laws against fraud, and I don’t think there is any need for a law against fraud,” she recalls. Greenspan, Born says, believed the market would take care of itself.

For the incoming regulator, the meeting was a wake-up call. “That underscored to me how absolutist Alan was in his opposition to any regulation,” she said in the interview.

http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2009/marapr/features/born.html

The Chairman of the Federal Reserve didn't understand the word, 'fraud'?

No words.

thanks for that. the man did not understand greed. suggest Julian Edney's treatise on the subject. Veblen's stuff was totally over this mans head. greenspan was an ass.

Greenspan said last year that he was surprised that bankers did things that were not in their banks' long-term self interest. He apparently believed his own BS.

He can shrug his shoulders. All of us have to live in the mess whose creation he facilitated.

Once upon a time, back in the pre-Reagan era, capitalism and profits didn't seem to have quite the emphasis they have today in the the way the country functioned.

One of the things that has happened between then and now is the background of the people running the companies. During your "once upon a time" era, the CEO was, more often than not, related to the company founders, or had a very long history with the company. More recently, the CEO is likely a "hired gun" brought in to run the company for a relatively brief period of time. There have been a number of studies showing that CEO longevity has been decreasing steadily.

It makes a difference.

Not the "hired gun" theory, but the "hired sociopath" theory.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thom-hartmann/profiling-ceos-and-their_b_2...

So why is executive pay so high?

I've examined this with both my psychotherapist hat on and my amateur economist hat on, and only one rational answer presents itself: CEOs in America make as much money as they do because there really is a shortage of people with their skill set. And it's such a serious shortage that some companies have to pay as much as $1 million a day to have somebody successfully do the job.

But what part of being a CEO could be so difficult -- so impossible for mere mortals -- that it would mean that there are only a few hundred individuals in the United States capable of performing it?

In my humble opinion, it's the sociopath part.

It make for an interesting thesis.

I have a more simple theory on that. The reason the pay is so high, is there's so few people who are "recognized" as being worthy of their positions. You know, it's a social thing, not a skill set or wisdom thing. And, the pay is high because there's so few "in the club". But, they keep everyone not in the club... out of the club. Instant "movie star" like status and pay to go along with it. Is any sports player worth millions a year? Objectively, it's a hilarous "no". Same with movie stars, musicians, etc. But, since people buy what they're selling, they get it. It's ok, we call it "freedom".

Same as major league baseball managers. Or general managers. It's not the skill set as much as it is having been in the right place at the right time (in the club)

Here's my anecdotal proof, at least for baseball executives:

Frank Cashen, college second baseman, advertising head at Orioles owner Jerry Hoffberger's National Brewing Company. Promoted to Orioles GM, followed up with the Mets, etc.

Larry Lucchino, lawyer for Orioles owner Edward Bennett Williams, who ultimately became president/CEO of the Orioles and followed up with a career in baseball.

We are more and more living in a "winner take all" society. The rewards for being in second place (the minor leagues of baseball) are tiny compared to the rewards going to even the lowest-paid major leager. A hundred years ago the spread was much much smaller. Fifty years ago it was substantially smaller.

Thus we have been concentrating more and more income at the top, with less and less available for everybody else.

We are more and more living in a "winner take all" society.

Talib, in his highly overrated The Black Swan went into that in a lot of detail. A good example is music. Before modern technology allowed broadcasting and recording there was a big market for second rate musicians, for that was all the music available to the masses. Now that we get our music from a CD, why pay almost as much for the worlds second greatest, when we can listen to the very best. So the rewards get increasingly concentrated at the top. Not all industries work that way, but an increasing number do.

You leave out the ability to get first rate music at any time for nearly nothing. And this effect applies to just about anything now thanks to the internet.

Which is why I'd rather be a third rate musician at this time in the USA than a second rate musician 100 or more years ago...

I believe God wants redistribution of wealth- to build character, not constituencies.

I've been having similar thoughts Web. An interesting read is The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout. She mentions an estimate of 4% of the population as having some sociopathic symptoms. It's an unsettling thought that 1 in 25 folks basically do things without remorse.

We're not talking Hannibal Lecter-types; and fear of winding up in prison does keep most from doing blatantly dishonest things. But a sociopath wouldn't feel bad about ruining beaches, injured employees or crashing our banking system - as long as they come out ahead.

If Stout's numbers are correct, there are millions of them out there. But, that means that they are not rare, so their pay should be much lower.

The bottom line is that there are folks out there who will do what's in their best interest regardless of the negative consequences to everyone else. Not all CEOs and senior executives are sociopaths, but I'll bet that a few highly placed ones can build up quite a bit of risk for the rest of us.

Web, it's a silly thesis. We have a million or two full-fledged sociopaths in our society. Why should a couple thousand of them (or whatever number you choose) get such high salaries? My answer is that it is the corruption of the boards of directors. Members of the board are paid higher and higher directors' fees with the clear understanding that they will vote to approve grotesquely obscene compensation for the CEO and maybe the chief financial officer too. Shareholders should get busy and vote their proxies to oust existing board members, but it is hard to do that when a corporation is highly profitable. It's easier to do when a company falls upon hard times. In my opinion all BP managers, probably even including low-level managers should be fired. New hires could learn a new culture of maximizing long-term profit through strict safety regulation; I doubt that there is much hope for re-educating the existing managers.

Control fraud is now so ingrained in the system, changing management and other personnel doesn't alter a thing.

I find that hard to believe. Culture is embodied in the beliefs, values, norms, and knowledge of individuals.

How would you go about changing BP's corporate culture? How would you stop control fraud? (whatever that is)

One definition:

Black sees what he calls "control fraud" at the heart of the financial crisis. "Control fraud," he explained, "is when the people controlling a seemingly legitimate entity use the entity as a weapon to defraud." It's fraud committed by design, by the people at the top.

The thing is that CEO performance can make a huge financial difference to a company.

For example, look at Steve Jobs. When he runs Apple the company does very well. When he doesn't the result is much much worse.

So if you are an Apple shareholder, is Steve worth a fat compensation package? Uh YES.

Some other CEOs? Maybe, maybe not. Look at Steve Balmer. Investments in Microsoft have been dead money for a decade. Is he worth his pay? Not so much.

The real problem is not so much high CEO pay, but rather the decoupling of results from that pay, or tying that pay to short term results.

Not the "hired gun" theory, but the "hired sociopath" theory.

A perhaps interesting hypothesis then: one consequence of the "old" system was that the sociopaths got sorted out before they could reach the top. Sociopaths generally can't spend 25 years working their way up from the bottom at a company without everyone figuring out what they are. If Dad is putting one of his kids in charge, he generally knows which one is the sociopath and picks another one.

I guess we're not living out "It's A Wonderful Life" any more. Actually I don't remember living in that world at all.

Market incentives favor attitudes that prioritize profit ahead of consideration of the effects of the company's activities. Environmental effects? Job loss or creation? Unless they have a positive effect on the bottom line they're externalities to be managed, not part of the company's and the executives' primary responsibilities.

This says that capitalism has innate sociopathic tendencies. It's not surprising that it rewards sociopaths who won't go soft on a company's economic goals just because what's done in pursuit of those goals is bad for people other than the company's owners.

"Market incentives favor attitudes that prioritize profit ahead of consideration of the effects of the company's activities."

Exactly. The inevitable result of any large market is the despoiling of the planet--the drawing down of resources far faster than they can replenish themselves. This is the market working at its most efficient.

I guess we're not living out "It's A Wonderful Life" any more. Actually I don't remember living in that world at all.

Market incentives favor attitudes that prioritize profit ahead of consideration of the effects of the company's activities. Environmental effects? Job loss or creation? Unless they have a positive effect on the bottom line they're externalities to be managed, not part of the company's and the executives' primary responsibilities.

This says that capitalism has innate sociopathic tendencies. It's not surprising that it rewards sociopaths who won't go soft on a company's economic goals just because what's done in pursuit of those goals is bad for people other than the company's owners.

I will second Don's call for a negative income tax or something similar. Implement it by giving everyone a credit and pay for it by increasing the progressivity of the tax system. It could be a lot more progressive and still not be anything close to what it was in the 1950s. The net cost might very well be not that high if one simultaneously eliminated all other income transfer programs, including social security.

There would also be additional savings because of the efficient nature of this scheme compared to the hodgepodge of transfer programs we currently have, including food stamps and unemployment insurance.

The traditional argument against any significant transfer of income, especially one where people might actually be able to survive on said program, is that it will disincentivize work. While this might very well be true for some people, those who desire a middle or higher level of income would not be affected as they would still desire all the things that come with a higher income, including status and a better place to live.

Even if it could be shown that the desire to work would be significant, this would actually be a point in the scheme's favor. Our problem is not lack of productivity, but too much productivity and too much consumption. We need to cut back on consumption, so it certainly would not hurt to cut back on production. Besides, it is not like we are able, anyway, to provide work to all comers under the current system.

Some apparently are suspicious of this idea because it was generated by Milton Friedman. I have very little use for most of Friedman's ideas, but a good idea is a good one, regardless of the source. As a raving liberal and a Keynesian, I supported this proposal back in the 1970s and support it now. I recognize Friedman's role in South America and generally detest him, but at least there is an advantage that one can use a conservative's ideas to argue against conservatives, most of whom would not like the negative income tax or any other income redistribution scheme.

Anyway, providing some basic level of income, come hell or high water, come boom or bust, is essential for a no or low growth economy. The growth economy thrives on income inequality and is said to be necessary to provide income to the poor through the trickle down effect. Unfortunately, inequality has increased over the years despite the growth and as a result of our overemphasis on finance as a source of wealth.

The powers that be in the gulf area are complaining vociferously about the oil drilling moratorium. Despite this total disaster, there seems to be little talk about changing our lifestyle or engaging in a crash program to transition to alternatives. Unfortunately, there will be a narrow focus where we just study what went wrong and supposedly come up with fixes and contingency plans for the future.

But, more to the point, what is the contingency plan for a society that could have dramatically less oil available in the coming years? I fear the contingency plan is to use a lot more coal, which has its own horrible impacts, including mining disasters, mountain top removal, destruction of entire towns, and massive carbon emissions, to just name a few problems.

Recent events have made me even less hopeful about the future. The irresponsibility and venality of the regulatory system is totally appalling.

yup, now that the rich control everything lets lock things down as they are. No, me thinks things are about to change. "..someday - the armies of bitterness will all be going the same way. And they'll all walk together, and there'll be a dead terror from it. The Grapes of Wrath

I believe Friedman's idea for negative income tax was to increase the money supply as productive capacity increased. If you're familiar with his quantity theory of money:

M*V = P*Q where M= Money supply, V= velocity (how often it exchanges hands) P= Price and Q= Quantity

Then as Q (supply) goes up, M should go up unless you have deflation. And the problems with deflation are that debt becomes harder to pay back and consumption drops (why buy today what you can buy tomorrow for less)- generally leading to lesser economic performance (if you see economic performance in terms of creation and distribution of goods and services as opposed to austerity such as growing your own garden and maybe doing your own dentistry).

So Friedman suggested to increase the money supply as capacity increased.- instead of having government spend or having banks issues lots of new loans- just giving the money to people.

If there was more money in the economy, some items (like gasoline and foreign goods) would go up. But some items (like housing, milk, newspapers, and manual labor) would have a chance to hold their price instead of declining as they have.

The benefits of lower stress and greater purchasing power and demand would have to be weighed against the moral hazard of paying people for doing nothing...

The negative income tax has nothing whatsoever to do with Friedman's advocacy of monetarism to replace discretionary monetary policy.

Friedman's negative income tax -- and he certainly wasn't the first economist to suggest such a thing -- was a formalized version of a toss-off comment he made once: "If the problem is that poor people don't have enough money, why don't we just give them some?"

More important was the context in which the comment was made. Friedman was criticizing the multitude of specialized programs for assisting the poor, and the enormous government bureaucracies that were required: Medicaid, Food Stamps, child care assistance, housing assistance, tuition assistance and general income assistance to name some of them. In effect, if what you really want is to provide everyone with a minimum income, why do you have all these expensive and complicated programs, rather than just having the IRS mail them a check?

The negative income tax proposal devised by Friedman contains strong incentive to work, even part time and at low wages. This is in contrast to existing programs that penalize work by taking away all benefits if you work. For example, if you earn more than a pittance all your Medicaid benefits are taken away. This is a powerful disincentive to work.

By the way, if Friedman's monetarism had been implemented by the Fed we never could have had the real estate boom and bust of recent years.

And, as a note of interest, as a young man he advocated 100% Reserve banking.

Friedman had a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good. His book with Anna Schwartz, "A History of Money," is a classic and well worth reading today.

The real estate boom and bust can be and is directly attributable to two entities, nicknamed Fannie and Freddie. These two entities, with the blessings of Congress, injected several TRILLION dollars into the economy, all directly aimed at the aquisition of real estate. With unlimited access to debt buyers, and without concern for lending it to less than credit worthy borrowers, against assets priced ever higher because of their endless supply of money for purchase, the result was absolutely gauranteed to happen.

Blaming the Fed for the actions of Congress is simply absurd.

The fast and enormous expansion of the money supply could not have happened without actions by the Fed to ease money (make loans cheaper and easier to get). Thus the Fed is one of the big villains, but I do not exonerate Frannie and Freddy, nor do I exonerate the reckless banks that made the bad loans. There is plenty of blame to go around--but I blame the Fed most, because its main job is to take away the punch bowl just when the party is getting good. (words of a former chairman of the Fed, William McChesney Martin)

When they raised short term rates to 6% and inverted the yield curve (which is a sure harbinger of recession and financial crisis to come), the Fed overdid it. And the result of financial crisis is generally an economy that underperforms by 10% for about 7 years.

You can argue they should have raised rates sooner than they did in 2004 (as the Taylor Rule would have prescribed), but they should have stopped at 4.5% in 2005.

Fannie and Freddy did not borrow from the Fed. They sold debt on the open market. If they had borrowed from the FED to fund these loans, the effect would have been somewhat different. Higher inflation, etc, and a profound deflation when the collapse in borrowing ocurred. Instead, the selling of debt on the open market resulted in the diversion of capital world-wide into an over-inflated commodity. Instead of research, instead of risking it on productive things, TRILLIONS of capital world-wide were diverted into real estate. This created a capital shortage in other areas, a diversion from the productive to the speculative, in terms of where capital went.

Now do you comprehend the immense stupidity of creating and encouraging both of them? Whether they obtained funds from the Fed or not merely redistributed the outcome slightly, but the outcome was bad, all the way around. So, now instead of Fannie and Freddie doing it, Congress is trying to do it, calling it "stimulus" spending, by borrowing trillions on the open market and directing it to non productive "make work" projects, projects to employ favored political factions, and assorted other non-productive wastes of money.

As a friend of mine from down south used to say "Ya'll got any clues around here?"

One would think that the boom would have at least slowed down from 2003-2006, when Fannie and Freddie were no longer acquiring mortgages for their own portfolio. But those were the craziest years of all. If they sold debt on the open market, why did people buy? Did they trust their relationships with investment bankers rather than doing proper research? Is it even possible for an individual investor to do the proper research? Did they rely on ratings agencies that failed to fulfil their duties?

Were bank risk models using default rates from a period when house prices always went up? What about lending standards? In the 80s, it was easier to repay a mortgage 3 times your income, because your income would go up due to inflation. Was that still true 20 years later?

What about the repeal of Glass-Steagall? Reagan's deregulation? What about the massive campaign contributions from the ABA, FNMA, Freddie, investment banks, hedge funds, Nat'l Association of Realtors, and on and on and on...

Sorry for the rant. Here's my clue. Don't oversimplify. You won't like the solutions that you end up implementing.

People bought because the ratings agencies said the CDOs were safe investments. Yes, the agencies failed to fulfill their duties. It was impossible for the individual investor or for that matter for any investor outside the investment banks that created the securities to properly evaluate them. This opacity was part of the design.

They were bought because they came from Fannie and Freddy, and by inference were "safe". We're not in a world of hurt because the investors lost their shirts... we're in a world of hurt because credit dried up as the credit market was discredited, as the amount of debt was revealed to be unsustianable, and because the secondary effect of the spending came to a halt, revealing that much of our "growth" was simply borrowed from the future, causing economic contraction, as the layoffs and reductions in spending occurred.

The old geezer, would you mail me, I'd like to ask you something off list.

Thanks
Charles

No, the CDOs didn't come from Fannie May and Freddy Mac. Those institutions don't back subprime loans. This row of dominoes began to tip over because when the low initial interest rates on sub-prime mortgage loans expired the housing market wasn't strong enough to allow the home "owners" to refinance their loans and he economy wasn't strong enough to allow many of them to pay the difference from their wages.

Investment banks like Goldman Sachs put together the CDOs by combining bundles of sound mortgages with bundles of not-so-sound mortgages. The ratings agencies signed off on a risk model that said that even though there were a lot of shaky mortgages there they wouldn't all go bad at once, would they? They assigned investment-grade ratings to CDOs that included lots of risky loans.

Well, they did all go bad at once. The dominoes haven't stopped falling yet; there are still a lot of mortgages outstanding whose interest rates have not yet reset to their long-term higher rates.

What "solutions" won't I like? The solutions are obvious... elimenate fannie and freddy, stop taxing and spending, balance the federal budget by reduced spending, and then stop "redistribution" of money from the producers. Producers must continue to produce, and in fact, MUST EXPAND, so they can hire new people. they must invest in higher prodictivity per person and higher wealth generation, or higher value per employee.

As my friend said...

It sounds like your friend doesn't have a lot of facts to add to the discussion. It sounds more like he just wants to ignore any evidence that conflicts with his preconceived notions of reality.

Fannie and Freddie are convenient whipping boys, but the bulk of early defaults were sub-prime loans that Fannie and Freddie wouldn't back.

The housing boom came about for three reasons:

1. The tax law changes of 1998 created an instant uptick in house NPV (since more of the profit of selling a house would be tax-free, and you could now do it an unlimited number of times);
2. The recession of 2000-2001 destroyed nearly 25% of manufacturing jobs in the US, and created a massive pool of skilled workers and investors looking for a new place to make money- as home prices were on an upward path, homebuilding and lending became a hot industry, creating a great deal of supply- and competition allowing larger and larger homes to be built;
3. The Fed lowered short term rates to below 2%, and all these workers building houses and making loans hopped into action.

Fannie/Freddie helped expand this no doubt, but the collapse was started when the Fed inverted the yield curve by raising short term rates to 6%. The effect of this was a 50% increase in mortgage payments for a lot of people, a significant impact to small business profitability and employment (imagine you're a small business with 1M in sales and 100K in profits paying 50K on your revolver- when that goes up to 65K, you now have to make more in profits to maintain the bank's profit ratio requirements, so you need to cut $30K in expenses- that's a job). So hiring slowed, and unemployment started to rise, and consumers did what you'd expect- put their houses up for sale- and the rout was on.

Combine this with uncertainty about change, higher taxes, and the prospects for more regulation, and do you really think this was all about Fannie and Freddie?

This is a recipe for shrinking the US economy to the size it was when Nixon floated the dollar in 1971. The IMF has been forcing this strategy on poor countries for decades. The Euro Zone countries say they're going to impose it on themselves. The results have been disastrous for the debtor countries wherever this has been done, as has been pointed out by past directors of the IMF and of the World Bank.

By the way, if Friedman's monetarism had been implemented by the Fed we never could have had the real estate boom and bust of recent years.

Then, of course, there's this Friedman quote from 2003: The use of quantity of money as a target has not been a success. I'm not sure that I would as of today push it as hard as I once did.

Friedman and central banks found that using the quantity of money was difficult because so many alternative sources of credit emerged that it couldn't be tracked, let alone controlled.

Friedman was still certain that Keynes was wrong in 2006, and died a strong support of free markets and capitalism. And the most recent episode from 2007-2010 would only strengthen his belief in monetarism.

“Let us suppose now that one day a helicopter flies over this community and
drops an additional $1000 in bills from the sky, …. Let us suppose further that
everyone is convinced that this is a unique event which will never be repeated,”
(Friedman (1969, pp 4-5).

http://www.nber.org/~wbuiter/helijpe.pdf

Surprised?

Saint Milty came up with the idea of the heliocopter drop money, which has wrongly been attributed to Bernanke, who merely quoted Friedman.

Conservative preachers/demagogues
are always screwing up their 'life lessons' to the rest of us.
Unfortunately it would take enormous resources to fact-check all their
errors/deliberate lies.

So we are literally overwhelmed by the volume of their misinformation.

One contingency plan is to ban the sale of new cars starting in one year or two years or three years. Used cars would still be OK to buy and sell. Taxi co.s could buy new cars. Buses, trucks, ambulances, motorbikes----all OK to buy new.

The govt would start special programs to help people cope. Medical issues, train trans., local food production, all sorts of things would need to be rethought and retooled. Now. While there is still time to work on it.

Rather than waiting for everyone to run out of gas on a freeway beside a shut down, vandalized big box shop.

The questions:

• Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?

What business "regulates itself"? I'm in what is known currently as an "unregulated business", and I literally have MILLIONS OF WORDS in the tax code, labor regulations, even myriad rules about how I interact with, and treat customers. I face threat of lawsuit at the smallest inconvenience to members of the public, and even have been blamed for the actions of people not related to me, or even my customers.

Every credible description I can find of the nature of the events that lead to the disaster revolves not around lacking regulation, but people being complacent and making bad, but in themselves not apparently easily amenable to regulated decisions. I find no merit at all in the idea, aside from emotional manipulation, that 'deregulation' is in any way responsible for this. As has been pointed out many times, the real issue here is a lack of personal accountability on the part of decisionmakers - like the military, failures are always blamed on the higher-ups, as if they're omnipresent. Noone has demonstrated that the best practice procedures developed by the industry itself are anything but extraordinarily good and competent. It seems what's at issue, is that there are decisionmakers given discretion to make decisions who lack accountability to much of anyone, yet the results of their failure are widespread.

• Can technology solve our all our problems?

If it can't, there's no solution. Some problems, like, having to work to eat, are not meant to be "solved". They're simply the nature of life. Other "problems" are often invented, some are mis-stated, and others are very real - like lacking water in some places, energy in others, etc. Some are created, like ignorant mining from the turn of the century over a century ago, that now fouls water in places. These problems have ONLY technological answers.

Many advocate "lifestyle" changes, some forced, to alleviate what they see as problems, but give no thought as to the real life consequences. For instance, the invention of the gasoline engine was a godsend to the pollution problems of cities, who were all but drowning in horrendous air, water, ground, and other pollution due to animals. Technology gave us the means of improving ICE emissions to the point they are now irrelevant. The use of energy to do things is what has given us the means of living in a very clean environment, for instance.

Perhaps we should lean from nature. Every living thing "spoils its nest" so to speak. And thus, nature punishes, or more correctly, naturally ends "concentration" of any living thing in one place. There's many other lessons to learn from observation, as well. Sadly, most conflict with the environmental movement, and will never be learned.

• If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?

Solutions to what? The rapidity with which needs are filled rests upon two things... the freedom of individuals to find answers and the availablity of the means of searching, and the motivation those individuals have to find answers. We no longer have room for Thomas Edisons in our society. No longer can individuals live lives in pursuit of answers. Instead, we work at some income-producing "job" and then 90% of what we earn is consumed by mere financial survival. 80% to pay someone else for necessities, government mandated expenditures, and for redistribution to non-producers, and if you're wise, 10% to save for your age of infirmity. The other 10% we can safely risk. Perhaps these ratios do not apply to wealthy people, if you wish to argue about them, but they're not incentivized to risk their wealth, either, they're punished for doing anything with a "return" unless it's loaning it to the government.

Thus, research and development has become "corporate". Public funding of research is geared to obtaining more funding for research - no results are required, and private funding which has a high risk is punitively treated. We have literally locked ourselves into what we have by means of social and tax policy. You want change? Fine, you're going to have to unlock society, which means many things.

• Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is here?

Depend on what? That it's there? It's there and there's more than we think there is. Does this mean it's unlimited? Of course not. But until or unless our present social and tax structure is altered dramatically, there will be no alternatives possible.

I'm one of the old fart TODers. I thought there was hope in the late '60s through mid '70s. But, change was coopted. So, in essence, I've considered this stuff for over 40 years.

It is too late now and "hope" will destroy a lot of people needlessly. I hate to use this phrase, but all this is nothing more than mental masturbation. There was a chance for change without a dieoff and, essentially, a revolution.

Good luck.

Todd

"Now, my friend, let us smoke together so that there may be only good between us."

black elk.

Todd, I disagree with you about discussions on the Oil Drum being mental masturbation. I don't think you really believe that, because if you did you would not continue to make comments here.

Of course we old timers here (over four years for me) can distinguish the wheat from the chaff pretty easily. We know whose comments are likely to be good and can quickly recognize the worthless ones. Discussing The Long Descent to come is better than denying it.

Don,

You misread me. I was talking about changing society. We had an opportunity 40 years ago to start to make unhurried, rational changes and blew it. Compared to today, there was a large existing cohort of alternative lifestyle people, environmentalists, and, yes, hippies who not only supported change but were actually doing it. Even the feds were doing a small part via organizations such as NCAT (the National Center for Appropriate Technology).

As far as TOD goes, I love the discussions and intellectual thrust. In fact, I left another forum where I was not only a poster but a mod because TOD was too time consuming. It's hard to believe it was over four years ago.

Todd

Well I for one am glad you stuck with TOD, I like information from other gardeners.

I have said it before I was a tree hugger ages ago, likely almost all my life, and nothing much has changed. The stuff I learned about recycling and reducing and re using and re-fill in the blank good things, has all been around for decades, but it seems that everywhere I turn someone is just now getting it when some of these people are as old as me or even older. I want to ask, where have you been all these years?

It just goes to show you that some things just never get taught enough, because children today are still asking the same questions I did way back when, as if no one has grown past this point and learned new solutions and new questions to ask. It is a stuck in time record. Or rather I should say a stuck in time CD hitting the bip bip bip laser show on the same spot.

On my answering message if you call my number and don't get me live, I say I'll see you on the Flip side. I have had several people ask me what the heck I was talking about, scary stuff.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from a tree in Arkansas, via me.

Todd --

I remember, while waiting in gas lines in the 70s, thinking that I'd be riding trains in the 80s. I even got into the transit business from that line of thought. What a crock of shit! You can see by my handle that I changed focus. Still trying to tilt against windmills, change BAU, reduce the impact of people on the environment.

I agree, too late, we blew it, my garden won't help much, but at least I live in an area with enough rainfall. Maybe I'll die of hunger and not thirst.

"It is too late now and "hope" will destroy a lot of people needlessly"

Yup, just let them (the majority) party on in ignorance, it is too late and they're screwed whatever they do now. Making people aware of their situation, is simply making them aware of their hopelessly intractable fate. What's the point of inviting them to view the catastrophic failure of their life support system when all they can do is watch hopelessly.

Overshoot simply means there is insufficient resources to maintain the entire population at current consumption levels. The majority are going to have to give up a lot and those that don't are already set up by luck or forethought to take less of an impact.

I'm with you Todd, perhaps not been around as long as you and having to deal with humans inability to deal with this finite planet. Maybe what we're going through is a cultural evolution. I think the shit that the human population is in will seem blindingly obvious - unfortunately after the event.
Is ToDing mental masturbation? Not completely, I'd expect your understanding of the problems is still developing. For some it makes a big difference.
Unless there is significant culture change die-off could be very dramatic IMO. But lots can still be done. When it starts the stresses could overwhelm the system.

Sunnata,

Ask yourself why so few TOD members are actually doing anything despite the huge amount of quantitative information and quality discussion. Why aren't they experiencing a "Holy Shit" moment but instead just keep posting about what should be done? I consider this mental masturbation.

As for me, I've been doing it for over 40 years. Heck, I had a small PV system almost 30 years ago along with solar hot water. I've been gardening since 1968. For a more complete exposition of what I've been doing see http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4979

Todd

PS I have to say I wish there were publications out there today like Clear Creek, CoEvolution quarterly and the Whole Earth Catalog. And books like Getting Back Together and Home Comfort: Life on Total Loss Farm. Or for the truly off-beat, Chamisa Road with...Paul and Meredith: Doing the Dog in Taos.

Ask yourself why so few TOD members are actually doing anything despite the huge amount of quantitative information and quality discussion.

I’ve often wondered about this myself. I suspect people don’t want to let go of the life they have regardless of the evidence. That is the biggest weakness of rationality, that you can get paralysis by analysis (is this really going to happen and when so I can get out of Dodge five minutes to high noon) or rationalize any way to continue BAU (everyone will change the way they live WTSHTF}. By the time the wolf is banging down the door (he is already there) knowledge gained from sites like this will be pretty useless if you've done nothing. It’s amazing how many of my associates make fun of me for buying my rural place in South Central Illinois a few years back. At least I have the courage of my convictions. Oh well, time to eat some fresh picked blueberries and go out and do some more field work.. I hate weeds. Been largely gone for two weeks on the job and have a lot of catching up to do. One of the pleasures of growing on pastureland not tilled for fifty plus years.

Bruce,

I made your decision in 1971 just before I became a chemical plant manager. I was living in Delaware at the time and had been looking for land in the DE/MD area and had to make a business trip to northern CA. Nice temperature and no misquitos (sp). The next year I got a corp dispensation to take my three weeks all at one time (can't have the honchos gone too long - I mean, the corp president had to approve it). We drove out to CA bought 13.5AC went back to DE and sold our house which drove the suits nuts. I was then assigned to be PM at a plant in northern CA and quit in 1974, totally writing off any possibility of a return to the industry.

The real key to all of this was total, absolute faith in myself; my analysis of the future and my own abilities to pull it off. Heck the first thing I did was build the first legal geodesic dome in the county (which took all my engineering knowledge to beat down the chief of the building department)- and I had never built a house before. And so there is no misunderstanding, I built the whole thing by myself - no subbing out anything. It was 40' in diameter and 19'6" at the top. This was a real house not a hippie thing.

And, I think few people have this kind of faith in themselves anymore. This limits their responses to what is obviously coming. They have never placed themselves in jeopardy but rather have followed the "safe" track.

FWIW my first job here was elementary school custodian. A GREAT job! Loved it! No headquarters crap like "cost out all the products by tomorrow morning" or dealing with the guy who isn't doing his job...and it had medical and retirement benefits.

It takes guts which seem to be lacking in a lot of people. Ah, I don't really mean that as it sounds but they don't have faith in themselves.

Todd

Todd,

What did you pay for your PV system, what is its conversion efficiency?

I've been involved with solar research on systems having 40% efficiency targeted to cost $1/watt. I'm really interested to know how that compares to your system of 30 years ago.

Hi Dirk,

Well, it sounds sort of nuts in retrospect. I had 4 - 10 watt amorphus panels at $7/watt on sale and one 37 watt crystaline panel that was on sale for about $5/watt. I also had a Trace ~ 570 watt modified sine wave inverter that would start some motors. The deal is that at that time Real Goods had their warehouse about 1 1/2 hours from me so I would buy stuff "on sale." I used two 12v truck batteries for storage and a charge controller (which cost about $125 at that time - not on sale). This was good enough to mostly keep our fridge going when the power was out. When things were bad, I ran a long jumper to the batteries from my truck to charge them. I also used the "system" to run a 12v pump so we'd have household water. The pump cost around $325. Prior to this we'd haul 5 gallon pails in from the storage tanks to flush the toilets and for drinking water. In all, I think I spent around $1,500 for everything but it's a long time ago.

Our current 3.6kW PV system cost about $30k including batteries (about $6k) but we got around $7k back from the CA buy-down program in 1999 when I installed it. And, like the first house I built, I didn't hire a contractor for this either so there is no labor cost. This system uses dual Trace 5548 inverters for 220volts with a 10kW possible load.

Hope this helps.

Todd

That's not as bad from a cost perspective as I would have thought, being able to do the work yourself is a significant benefit, and I'm sure you're enjoying the lower energy bills.

The problem I have with big subsidies (and I think forcing the power company to pay 25 cents/kwh for power they could get elsewhere for 3 cents qualifies as big) for wind and solar is that technology continues to move forward- so pushing for these systems now is a bit like Gerald Ford pushing people to buy IBM 360s- 15 years later you could get much more computer for much less money.

I fully expect at some point alternative energy will make much more economic sense- whether it will be crystalline Si or amorphous Si or CIGS or III-V CPV or nuclear, I'm not sure- but I believe we have the time to let it all settle out. The issue is that this could be 50 years or more from now, and there are a lot of politicians and corporations with significant interests in green energy.

"I'm not sure- but I believe we have the time to let it all settle out"

Well, thanks at least for having the intellectual humility to admit that you aren't sure.

Just out of curiosity, are you not even more upset that very, very mature industries like oil, coal, gas, and nuclear get enormous subsidies that totally dwarf anything put into wind, solar and all other renewables? I'm fine with not subsidizing anything but I am quite suspicious about people who yell and scream about the (comparative) pennies thrown at alternatives while remaining mum about zillions thrown at entrenched, powerful and enormously polluting industries.

It used to be fun to think about where we'll be forty or fifty years from now, all those imaginings of high-tech oozie-whatzits propelling us about the universe. Sure we all have them (based on what we think we know), however we live in a highly dynamic world, so future-beliefs must be subject to change as well.

A few weeks ago, I had a belief that someone in MSM might ask, "Why are we drilling in 5000 feet of water anyway?" Ah, well. Good to HAVE beliefs, but if they're wrong, or no-one else in your immediate circle has them, well...

In the past I would have agreed having solid beliefs should help carve the path to a rewarding future, spiritually or otherwise. These days it seems, wishy-washy "hope" is a more dominate force, which is kinda spooky. Otherwise known as "crossing fingers" (or faith, "fingers and toes"), having hope is generally a silly way to live. Having said that, hoping for beautiful sunsets and water fresh enough for the grand-kids to swim, still sounds reasonable.

Certainly beliefs change over time and perhaps pollies have the best understanding of this. Perhaps they're the ones to lead us afterall?

:)

Regards, Matt B

PS. The thing I have always thought odd is how even the smartest of us (not me, for sure!) continue to use trend charts as some sort of guide for future beliefs. Maybe in the short term this is OK, but not long. How can anyone take a pencil and draw any sort of accurate line to 2020? (That's a blink of an eye away). Any chart-of-the-day is already history and all those dashed lines into the future are, in all fairness, simply a best guess.

Been in a rambling mood this week. Sorry about that.

About "beliefs". My "beliefs" are unchanged in any way. There are certain things I believe because they are credible. Some things I believe because I have personal experience that makes them credible * to me *, though not necessarily anyone else. If this event in the gulf changed some belief you hold, I'd have to ask what you based your beliefs upon before?

For instance, I believe if I go outside and stick the key in my truck and turn it, it will start. That belief is born of many many years of practice. I know that sometimes it does not. For instance, I've left the lights on, and the battery was dead. Still, the reliability of the system which makes it start has been proven. Not only that, I know the science behind the technology intimately, I have no reason to doubt it.

I note with interest the discussion of "peak oil". Some argue it's now, some later, some say it's past. If you have statistical evidence to suppor any of those conclusions, then someone making bad decisions about a well drilled in the Gulf of Mexico has absolutely no relevance. Either your observation of the facts of an apparently finite resource are true or not, regardless. Like believing my truck will start, it should be based on simple facts and a relatively straightforward reasoned analysis.

As far as "income inequality" goes, I cannot imagine how it is a symptom of anything other than being human. After all, the lowest you can go is 0, and the highest you can go is limited by what you do. Where you land, in relationship to those endpoints is mostly a matter of the quality of your efforts and decisionmaking over the course of your life, combined at times, with random chance. It would seem that if people are making vast sums of money for doing something, far beyond any comprehension of "earning it", then perhaps the issue is one of lacking competition. I know nothing better than competition for reducing wasteful expenditures by any enterprise.

In the United States, many (probably most) of the very wealthy inherited all or most of their wealth. How does this fact square with "reducing wasteful expenditures by any enterprise." Instead we have the waste of a parasite leisure class.

Could you provide some source for that assertion? I can't imagine how it's true. The US has more first generation wealthy people than any other nation in the world, and that's been known for a long, long time.

It's an easy assertion to check. Just go to the magazine FORBES and look for their issue on the four hundred richest people in the U.S. They provide potted biographies of the top 400, so you can see where they got their money from. For every Bill Gates or Warren Buffet their are four or five Walton children of the founder of Wal-Mart who are billionaires purely through inheritance. They tend to keep a low publicity profile.

I've known perhaps a dozen multimillionaires in my life. They all had inherited all of their money.

That's no evidence at all. For the 400 on the list, which DOES include Gates, et al, who are first generation big wealth, are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, who start without significant inheritance, and build a business and an income, and eventually hold wealth, well beyond "average" and accumulate considerable value. These ARE 'wealthy people'. I don't give a flip about someone who inherited a fortune and then does nothing but spend it and by the next generation, it's going to run out... like the Kennedy's for instance, who no longer have any fortune.

While some of those may be in the "richest" in the country, they're only a small group, and of little interest to anyone else. I don't actually know any millionaires, unless they're the farmers and ranchers I do business with, and they're as ordinary of people as anyone else. Even if they are rich, they still live in modest homes, and bust their butts working to have what they have. I begrudge them nothing.

The statistic is that about 20% of America's wealthy get their money through inheritance.

The rest earn it.

Source? And does your statistic apply to the very wealthy or only to the routine millionaires, of which there are more than a million in the U.S.?

Hmmmm, "Capitalism Magizine"---sounds like a "fair and balanced" source!!

Seriously, where do you guys come from.

It really doesn't matter if or how much the wealthiest people work. Lot's of regular thieves work really hard, too. And that's exactly what the enormous skewing of wealth toward the top .1% over the last few decades--vast thievery.

I don't trust Drs. Stanley and Danko. Was their paper peer reviewed? And I consider the website you posted to be highly biased; look at its name. So there were 8.2 millionaires in 2003, so what? A million dollars is no longer great wealth. Instead of looking at the 8.2 million individuals, how about looking at the top 1% or the top 2%. That is where the great inherited wealth is concentrated.

At a broader level, there are a growing number of studies that show that the best predictor in the US of a person's relative income at age 40 is their parents' relative income at the same age. That is, an individual whose parents were in the top 20% of earners is enormously more likely to be in that group at age 40 than someone whose parents were in the lowest 20%. Yes, some people make the jump from child of poor parents to rich adult, but statistically they are the exceptions and not the rule.

The mobility statistics are pretty clear. Possible causal links, OTOH, are hotly debated. Some argue that it's largely a matter of genetics: talented people tend to have talented children (consider, as an example, how many NFL players have a father, uncle, or cousin who also played pro ball). Some argue that it's situational: children in poor households are not exposed to the same reading material and role models as children in wealthier households. Some argue that it's just a matter of wealth propagating: if two people graduate from college, one with $100K in debt and one debt-free, the one with the debt has fewer options about what to do next.

Based on the age-40 income statistics, the US does not have as much mobility between the economic quintiles as it used to. And "socialist" countries like Sweden and Denmark now have more mobility than the US does. I suspect that there will be a substantial number of PhD dissertations in the next several years looking at the relationship between mobility and equality. For example, does Sweden have greater mobility after controlling for the fact that their quintiles are more closely spaced than those in the US: Swedish poor are relatively richer than US poor, and Swedish rich are relatively poorer than US rich.

At a broader level, there are a growing number of studies that show that the best predictor in the US of a person's relative income at age 40 is their parents' relative income at the same age.

That is true, although it is not the same thing an inherited wealth. Other things are passed along, good genes, attitudes towards education and money, opportunities for a good education.... I would distinguish these backchannels from the actual inheritance of wealth.

Contacts and a safety net. The rest of those things either don't mean much or aren't unique to rich families.

My "beliefs" are unchanged in any way.

"Don't confuse me with the facts, I've got my mind made up"

Me thinks that applies to most people past 20 years in age.

Can businesses regulate themselves?

No, and they should not be expected to.

Also I think your time scale regarding the the emphasis of capitalism is too short. If you go back, say 150 years you will see that we have been progressively de-emphasizing capitalism and profits for quite a while.

Can technology solve all of out problems?

No. I do not think technology will ever be able to eliminate our main problem - ignorance.

I am not sure why you think Scientific American or Steven Chu are telling us that technology will solve all of our problems. Clearly both sources will tell you that the 3 laws of thermodynamics are always in play, which right there puts huge limits on what technology can do.

If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?

Well, to be facetious, you can expect that, and in fact there seems to be a lot of expecting that right now.

But you will be greatly disappointed if you do expect that.

Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is available?

If you mean the increasingly scarce reserves that we already know about, sure. The cost just went up, that is all.

As for your questions:

1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?

Really not a lot. I've had a naturalistic world view for quite a while, so things like the BP Spill aren't a big surprise to me.

Events did lead me to this site though, and this place does have the potential to affect my beliefs over the longer term.

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? For example, if there is going to be less, an attitude of sharing what we have might be helpful. Income Inequality in the US is very high. Is there a way we can even out this inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better?

Well, I think meritocracy is important. Nature doesn't reward the weak and ignorant, and a society must conform to the reality of natural law or it will fail or be overrun by a society that does a better job of aligning with reality.

If I were to pick mechanisms to improve the current situation it would be through inheritance or estate taxes and through education. People should not inherit vast wealth that arises from the efforts of others and likewise our society has a big problem in that it does not offer about 20% of the population any opportunity for self-realization, and it does not teach the ideas of naturalism.

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

Not a lot. The problems we have are to entrenched to be solved as a reaction to something like the BP spill.

Some of the issues I see are:

1. Poor structure of government that hides or distorts costs in the economic system. The BP spill is a clear case of what happens as a result. More so is the problem of squandering resources - We may come to a time when we have the knowledge to do great things but lack the resources.

2. Education that de-emphasizes understanding of natural laws, their limitations and the consequences of ignoring the limitations.

3. Use of religion as a crutch when the problems at hand are addressable only by application of natural law.

It is hard to see how a oil spill is going to cause enough of a paradigm shift to address these issues.

"3. Use of religion as a crutch when the problems at hand are addressable only by application of natural law."

Huh?

An example of this is the concept of intelligent design. The question is "how did the complex order life arise". The crutch is "intelligent design". That is not an acceptable answer because it closes the door to real understanding of an important and subtle field of study.

Again, I have no idea what your assumption are and why. My study of biology, etc, has reinforced my belief that the origin of life cannot be accidental. Walk through the wilderness and find a bunch of rocks formed into a shelter. Obviously, it was deliberately done. Peer into the immense complexity of life and assume it's mere accidental in origin? I find such thinking perfectly absurd.

But since I have no idea what you mean when you say "intelligent design", I've no idea real idea what your point is.

I can't answer for him. But I can say what I hear others talk about it as, a deity of some sort, not labeled.

Intelligent design as a term would be a copout for most christians to use, even though I see them using it in the media of the day.

While I am here, though I'd like to welcome both of you to the forum we call TOD, don't let people get under your skin much, and take most discussions with a helping of good natured banter. After all, we might someday meet on a street someday and still want to be civil to each other.

If either of you want to discuss this off TOD feel free to email me, address is in my profile.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas.

50 trillion dice rolls and I still get double 6's, and you come along and roll them and they show chaos.

After decades of vacillating between agnosticism and atheism, I now do believe there WAS a God.

But we have pretty well killed her off at this point.

Oh don't say that. She's the only reliable source to help clean up this BP mess.

Thanks for the chuckle.

My study of biology, etc, has reinforced my belief that the origin of life cannot be accidental.

No. It was a meteor carrying a rare phosphorous compound that got it started: New Theory for Life's First Energy Source

That doesn't mean it was an accident ;->

Peer into the immense complexity of life and assume it's mere accidental in origin? I find such thinking perfectly absurd.

How will you find the answer to origin if you think this way? And don't forget that the complexity you observe today is the result of 4 billion years of evolution. The original life may have been surprisingly simple in form.

I'm somewhat confused by people who think that a rational conclusion that life was created intelligently is some kind of mental deficiency, but all it really is, is using a set of very solid scientific principles to arrive at a very supportable conclusion. I *believe* in God, but that doesn't mean I think there's nothing to research about life or biology, or how things were done. In fact, I believe in Heaven, and I also believe that should I be found worthy and I am afforded life without end, I will study science and the mysteries of life into forever - among other things.

I lack the resources to do that study now, even though it interests me. I notice that there's tons of theories of the origins of life, but none are as rational as believing that its complexity and sophistication is directly a result of deliberate action.

I lack the resources to do that study now, even though it interests me. I notice that there's tons of theories of the origins of life, but none are as rational as believing that its complexity and sophistication is directly a result of deliberate action.

In my opinion attributing something to divine intervention just because you don't have a rigorous naturalistic explanation is irrational.

This is the same sort of thinking that led earlier people to the idea that volcanic eruptions were the result of angry gods.

Since Thales of Io we have had great success in removing such explanations from the world. Sooner or later this question too will fall.

http://www.naturalism.org/history.htm

"In my opinion attributing something to divine intervention just because you don't have a rigorous naturalistic explanation is irrational."

Ahh, so in your world it is impossible for more intelligent beings to exist than you, and assuming that intelligence greater than yours created systems more complex and sophisticated than we can understand is irrational.

Uhhh. I'll stick to what's rational and not try to play cute games.

Ahh, so in your world it is impossible for more intelligent beings to exist than you, and assuming that intelligence greater than yours created systems more complex and sophisticated than we can understand is irrational.

The tack about the ID possibly being super intelligent beings is a non-starter. That is just a deity or supernatural being under another name. They are logically equivalent.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck etc. it's a duck.

No reason to use such a thing in a naturalistic explanation as there is no evidence for it. It is an unneeded unsupported hypothesis.

Ahh, you're right. One must start off with certain set in stone conclusions when approaching a question, and any possible leads that lead that way must have alternative explanations... Or just attacks on those who fail to obey your set boundaries.

While it is true, religion cannot inform us about the origin of life, so far, neither can science. No one has been able to create life yet, even "simple" life. For example, consider Craig Venter's recent achievement of stuffing some synthetic DNA into a bacteria. He still requires living cells as receptacles. The closest thing to life in a beaker, is perhaps self-replicating RNA, but even there no one has made the starting RNA from a solution of phosphate, sugar, and bases.

RNA world is only one of many competing origin of life theories. IMHO RNA is too complex to be the origin; some other origin is more likely.

What origin is likely?

I think the best idea right now is simple heterotrophic protocells powered by thermal vents. This is a very long term stable energy rich environment with a lot of amino acids hanging around. Lots of different reactions would go in a place like that. Over a billion years....

Of course the real mechanism might be something else.

<1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?>

I believe things are speeding up, becoming unchangeable, the train is starting to run right over the 'bridge out' sign. Not too long ago, I thought there might be more time, less abrupt.

<2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? For example, if there is going to be less, an attitude of sharing what we have might be helpful. Income Inequality in the US is very high. Is there a way we can even out this inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better?>

There are too damn many of us. We can believe in sharing & caring and a higher purpose, but then some folks with less food, shelter, income and more sense of desperation will skip the voluntary part and balance the inequity themselves. If we had leaders who meant us to get through this, and we had a exponentially smaller population, we could all live in Ecotopia. But we're a greedy broken species and people profit by keeping us that way.

<3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?>

"Doomerism" has become more acceptable. It makes it easier to talk to friends & family about planning ahead which helps us circle our wagons so to speak. It's been a good impetus to get more of my 'tribe' taking care of themsleves and thinking about the bigger picture.

I was shocked as anyone that this spill could happen to this extent. But I was shocked when the Challenger blew up, when Toyota cars accelerated on their own, and when Bernie Maddoff stole 18 Billion dollars.

The questions you ask, Gail, remind me to other terrible situations where I was not shocked- not shocked that hundreds of thousands died in places like Haiti and Indonesia where authoritarian governments led to substandard economies and housing standards; not shocked when millions may have starved in North Korea while agricultural production has plummeted in Zimbabwe (plenty of oversight there); and not shocked when the cries for slower growth in response to "suburban sprawl" and "global warming" and an "overheated economy", combined with the promise of more regulation (higher minimum wages), higher taxes (cap gains, inheritance, investor class), and "change" has led to record unemployment amongst young people, soaring bankruptcies, and massive underemployment- even while record deficits and Keynesian stimulus has been brought to bear.

Free enterprise can lead to the deaths of people- by the dozens or hundreds. Government regulation and the law of unintended consequences has shown the ability to kill millions. And the great thing about capitalism is it creates rich people. People who's unique desires for things like portable phones, flying, and indoor plumbing create the technology for tomorrow's middle class to improve their lives. And that technology is responsible for people living twice as long as we used to.

Not to mention rich people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates can apply the profits they've made delivering new services and technology to helping others by working on improved education, clean water, mosquito nets- or building libraries. Smart people tend to do those things, in addition to giving employees raises and the other things business owners like to do when they make money. Bureaucrats, on the other hand...

Sure, there are $30K suitcases- but someone created that "art" and is getting paid for it. Would you rather they be given the money for doing nothing at all?

Sorry, we Cretins agree with Jay Hansen. What we need is a society of sloth.

What you got against bureaucrats? they build your roads, provide you with clean water, fight your wars, protect you from crime, educate your children, clean up your messes, etc.

Sorry, we simply can't afford a society of sloth. Somebody has to do all the work required to meet all those bureaucratic rules. Every year there are more rules, and every year, the rules at the bottom of the heap are, well, even more cretinous than the year before. For the most part the bureaucrats don't do any work themselves, they just drive desks, from which they snootily command others to do the work.

Now, if we want to go back to the 19th century, that's a whole other matter. Roads? back then they couldn't and wouldn't have built the streets to the expensive persnickety standards mandated nowadays - fancy curb stones, a plethora of exactingly legislated markings and stripes, a thicket of signs. Water? Back then my city wouldn't even have been capable of sending me an annual water report fussing over a part or two per billion of this or that - people just drank the d*mned stuff. Wars? It all depends. Crime? Much simpler back then, much less likelihood of getting a wad of money spent on a lawyer to get you off on some excuse invented by a sociologist. Education? The Board of Ed wouldn't have spent vast sums on so-called "special education", no one ever heard of such a thing, nor could they have afforded to pretend to put everyone all the way through 12th grade. Messes? No one had the means even to detect the five-minute deductions from life expectancy that we now moralize histrionically about for endless hours.

"Society of sloth"? Utter bullshnarkey unless we toss out most of the modern rule book! You Can't Have It Both Ways.

perhaps you are correct. but on an individual level it is indeed possible.

And the great thing about capitalism is it creates rich people.

Yr kidding, right?

It's ironic that what will destroy the empire will be its currency.

Could you find any successful nation that isn't capitalist?

Successful at what?

heh, yes, need to define 'success'

I dunno. Any measure you wish. The personal wealth of the citizens, the freedom of the citizens. The lack of needs among the citizens, the lack of things like starvation and death by elements, not killing off masses of citizens merely becuase the resources are lacking to feed them...

Any old measure you wish. There is no non capitalist system which succeeds. Every communist nation has failed - and it never even managed to reach "communism" as it's defined. Either they have attempted to start putting capitalism to work for them, or else have created hellholes almost beyond comprehension, or the people of the nation simply revolted and overthrew them.

Whatever you don't like about capitalism - which is the right to ownership of property, and the right to engage in trade and use what you own to benefit yourself - you're free to whine about, but please don't be so naive as to pretend anythign else is actually any kind of viable option.

More lies:

"Humans created language so that they might confuse their enemies." Proverb

'Personal wealth', 'freedom' and the large collection of buzzwords, straight out of advertising. Everyone is 'moving forward' ... except for those who aren't which is just about everyone save the handful who own everything and the smaller handful clever enough to compromise that few. Who wins the rat race?

Answer; the rats, of course.

"Sit patiently on the riverbank, eventually the body of your enemy will float by." Vietnamese proverb.

Why not? 'Success' in all of its wonderful measures is simply another form of suicide, like OD'ing on smack. That's for wrapping all and sundry in the flag, the hapless dude on the filthy toilet in the stall in CBGB's tying off and getting ready to take a hit for Old Glory. How apt. Who's going to clean up the corpse? Mom and Dad?

None of the systems succeed, in the long run all systems are dead. The idea 'du jour' is simply a bit of pop culture, more Andy Warhol. The embodiment of success is creature/characature of a human being Donald Trump (who inherited his wealth from entrepeneur Dad Fred who was a bid- rigger, payoff payer under the table with more than a handful of corrupt State and City 'playahs' in his 'rise to the top'. Not only that, the Donald had to be bailed out by Fred in the early 1990's when most of Hairman's real estate gambles soured. Some success ...)

The ruin of capitalism is capitalists!

Right now the free market isn't. It's a child's toy, another amber- colored photo of a car crash from Warhol's Factory;

"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer!"

Another blast from the past, lost in the spell that never ends, even with 500lb bombs raining incessently from the Allied sky; the mythical Hitler who never made a public appearance post- Stalingrad, who's 'charisma' was carried forward to convince the hopeful German citizenry by the baleful midget clubfoot Joseph Goebbels. There is no way our current predicament cannot end badly, we substitute the flag and apple pie for downright fascism and proclaim it superior to what, exactly?

C'mon, that's an easy one! Right?

Our downfall is red white and blue and a myth/dream is still nothing but pure fantasy. The Americans are like little children in a fairytale. Nobody dares tell the little ones the truth because the spell might be broken and the children might cry. So the forgetful children fall into themselves, become addticts, become obese from garbage food and poisoned water. The doctors cut into them like whalers of old, they clog up the massive infrastructure based on 'the corporate balance sheet' with their gigantic floating palaces drifting aimlessly toward a Potemkin future that has been cleverly constructed out of paste while the real one has been taken to the pawnshop. Forty lousy stinkin' pieces of silver! This fairy tale is the one where the witch puts the children into the oven. Remember that one?

"the (American) love that dare not speak its name." Oscar Wilde

No, not that love. This one:

All the cowards who crawl out of the woodwork like cockroaches, the Americans who love unwisely but not too well. You and you and you and you, and none have the courage to step out of the shadows and grasp the nettle of American exceptionalism taken to its logical conclusion.

What is there not to like? The little man who made it to the top! An outsider who knew what's waht and wasn't afraid to kick some ass, right?

What is it about our unrequited love object that we cannot translate to our own time and place? Rather, what else? He put an entire nation on wheels, he made a fetish out of modernity, of sleekness and surface and flash, of ruthlessness, of 'efficiency', of the lie being the truth, of willful ignorance and stupidity, of bullying oppression, out of tyranny of the majority, out of the equation that honor and restraint were weaknesses to be exploited without pause or compromise, that all means can be rationalized if you simply try hard enough. His is a Horatio Alger- slash Ayn Rand love story, right?

We can see how that cheap pop- art theatric turned out the last time it was performed:


Dresden, 1945.

Funny how hubris works. The USA has never stopped trying to absorb every single bit of Nazi DNA into the body politic and wrap it up into so good ol' "Aw Shucks' Andy Griffith 'populism' and red, white and blue. It's so easy, just words:

I also agree with Rauh that we need to kill defined benefit plans (Jews) going forward. Moreover, we really need to go the next step and get rid of public unions (Jews) altogether. They (the Jews) wrecked Europe and they are wrecking the US.

Thanks, Mike Shedlock for a trip down the Mein Kampf memory lane. I almost forgot.

What's next, eh Mr propaganda man with all those well- used half truths? This road has been exceedingly well traveled and the end is the Street of Crocodiles.

Show me the honestly and kiss the one you love if you have the courage of your convictions.

I dare you!

Well, there's one thing we know about the haters of liberty and individual freedom. They're irrational and incoherent.

Kiss, kiss ...

Somebody's been watching the wrong Andy Griffith performances. Time to check out "A Face In The Crowd".

"please don't be so naive as to pretend anythign else is actually any kind of viable option"

The human arrogance is breathtaking.

Every other living thing on this planet, from bacteria to trees to mammals, does not act under any human belief system, and they are all viable and successful.

99.9% of all species that have ever lived have gone extinct. And the UN is now claiming global warming could cause 1/3 to 1/2 of existing land species to go extinct.

Of course, the UN lets politics cloud its scientific judgment on a regular basis. I would caution you against the same.

Kiss, kiss ...

Your first pseudo-statistic--what possible relevance does it have to anything?

Are you implying that, since ninety whatever percent of humans that have ever lived have died, that it's just fine for me to shoot you?

Which scientific judgment are you claiming is clouded?

Sweden, with 40 years of Social Democracy (i.e. socialism) "managing and controlling" capitalism has been quite successful. More so than the USA, for example.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Newbie here, have been reading like mad. I love your posts, and thought I'd add to your comment:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html?src=me&...

Makes me want to move there. Of course I was born and grew up in Germany in the 1950's, and long for the days when I could go see a doctor or dentist anytime I needed to. But I love this country, especially its wilderness in all its shapes and forms from East to West Coasts (I'm a wildlife educator and rehabilitator with over 3,000 birds - mostly seabirds - under my belt).

An Cuba gets the highest ratings in the world for having the lowest per capita negative impact on ecosystems which also maintains an impressively high score on such human well-being areas as literacy, longevity, infant mortality...

I think it was the World Wide Fund for Nature that did the study a few years back.

I believe it is in this report. Warning large file:

http://assets.panda.org/downloads/living_planet_report_2008.pdf

The wind seems to have swept in some pretty extreme capitalist ideologues. Interesting that they still exist after the chaos it has brought us in the last decade.

Eyes wide shut?

And the great thing about capitalism is it creates rich people.

I thought it was Al Gore who created rich people, just like he created the Internet.

No seriously folk, to attribute the creation of of "rich" (versus "poor") people to the ideology of capitalism is insane and defies all lessons of history.

There have always been people who were more "rich" or more "poor" long before the modern allocation system we call capitalism was invented.

Sorry, I should have said "more" rich people.

Look at China- there are a lot more millionaires there since they adopted capitalist features within their economy.

To not attribute the creation of MORE rich people to capitalism is insane and defies all lessons of history.

Or are you advocating a return to the rule of kings?

One of my greatest fears is that we will find the Chinese form of capitalism to be more effective than the western forms.

Success of a society is about self-actualization. Wealth can be a part of that but it is not what everyone wants.

What is important is that you are free to pursue your own dreams. Success at that might be measured by the number of wealthy people but that is only a partial measure.

Why would you fear it? They're almost pathetically dependent upon the wealth and productivity of the free and capitalist world, because they have found they can use their pathetically low income expectation to exploit the markets. It doesn't really "work", as "working" would transform the country from one of mostly third world status, to one of great personal wealth. It isn't happening. When the average Chinese has productivity rivalling that of those who live in the West, then we can talk. But that's never, EVER going to happen until complete transformation of their politics and society happens.

I wouldn't dismiss what they are doing so quickly.

.

Yes, look at China. Do you like what you see?

Having been there a half dozen times (have you?) I can see the difference between open air sewers and modern plumbing that's being installed all over the country.

China is not perfect by a long shot, but to deny the improvement in living standards there, especially over the past 10 years, is just plain ignorant.

I used to own part of a factory there. We paid about 50% more than competitors, and tried to implement western team-based management practices (as opposed to command and control where, if you made a mistake, the response was for you to stand in the middle of the factory floor and get yelled at). It wasn't easy getting them to accept that idea. Progress is slow sometimes.

"I used to own part of a factory there. We paid about 50% more than competitors, and tried to implement western team-based management practices (as opposed to command and control where, if you made a mistake, the response was for you to stand in the middle of the factory floor and get yelled at). It wasn't easy getting them to accept that idea. Progress is slow sometimes."

Deja vu!

What a novel approach. Americans evolved through the Industrial Revolution where children were surplus and could be counted on to oil a piece of equipment with out shutting the factory down to a place where workers had a right to speak up which was traded for trickle down effect which never did. When Regan quartered the pie and came up with 5/4s is that what you are trying to feed the peasant robots in China. I wonderred where the fifth quarter of the pie went.

"Progress is slow" NO S**t

Al Gore sponsored the legislation that created the commercial Internet. If that hadn't been done there'd still have been an Internet, but without the growth we've seen over the past fifteen years. This almost certainly would have been done eventually without Gore; still, he did something that needed to be done and we've all benefited from that.

There have been rich people and poor people for a long time. During a few decades in which the US political system was not captive to the interests of the rich there was also a middle class.

I happened to be reading this thread while listening to Creedence doing "Born on the Bayou." The line in that song got me Googling "hoodoo," and in one definition it's listed as a religious theme of retribution.
Fat chance the bible-thumpers will pick up on it, but maybe this is the divine message they all seek.
No question, this is a disaster of biblical proportions.
Bad juju.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodoo_(geology)

As one of the few Christians around here, I sought wiki's help. I don't think of the gulf being anything about God hating us, or a divine message more so than anything else that could have happened in the last 55 days.

I do think it is a wake up call to all those people who have no clue how dangerous living in this day and age is. Few people even care where they get oil from, as long as they have some for their cars, boats, mo-peds. Just like few people understand where their food comes from these days. I remember a show where a tomato was held up in a grade school class and no one seemed to know what in the world it was. That was down right scary, where are the parents in all this, don't kids know that food is not a bit of glop from a box on the store shelf? I know adults that turn their noses up at fresh vegies, and fruits, like it's going to kill them.

HooDoo is related to voodoo which in a Bayou setting puts a sense of place in the song.

But the Geology formations are cool too, you'll have to ask the song writers what they meant.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas, land of caves, and streams

I know adults that turn their noses up at fresh vegies, and fruits, like it's going to kill them.

Have you forgotten the spinach scare, the lettuce scares, and all the other scares? A hundred years ago, getting a bad tummyache once in a blue moon was utterly unremarkable. Now every bad tummyache is an excuse to further glopify (is that a word?) the food supply in the name of "safety", with farmers' markets seemingly headed for the endangered species list.

Oh, and with modern communication we get to hear about every bad tummyache in a country of 300 million - and in histrionically indignant tones on the TeeVee - instead of hearing only about the bad tummyaches in a neighborhood of a few hundred, and probably incidentally and well after the fact. That only reinforces the effect.

Yeah the over active recalls bug me too. Wash your raw foods even if they say they have been washed then bagged. I only trust store bought food after I rinse it off. Safe kitchen habits will reduce your sickness levels a lot more than just about anything else, also washing your hands. I use 5 things to clean with the most. Salt, Vinegar, Lemon juice, Hot water, and Sunlight.

I can just see some homeless people I know cringing everytime they hear about food recalls. Starving people don't care much about safety like well fed people seem to.

One thing that will change with time is that tommyaches will be from lack of food and less important will be recalling food to save one person in 5,000.

I never complain about the food I eat, half the time it was likely someone I picked wild that did it, not something I store bought. Reminds me of a mushroom I nibbled on the other day, smelled fine, tasted nasty.

As an old neighbor once said, "Charles, one of these days we are going to find you with X's on your eyes, and know you tasted something that killed you." LOL, I had been trying to get him to eat young mulberry shoots and Maple seeds at the time.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas.

Yeah. And I was forgetting. The Feds tried to scare us out of eating all the spinach - even the local stuff at the farmers' market. Utterly ridiculous. But with politicians and bureaucrats, showing how concerned and powerful they are trumps even the most elementary good sense every time.

Tom Friedman has really turned in the wind like a weathervane since the Lexus and the Olive Tree and the World is Flat...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/opinion/13friedman.html?hp

Unfortunately, there will be no widespread societal change without buy-in from TPTB.

And, alas, TPTB benefit from BAU.

There go my people. I must follow [and pretend to get ahead of] them for I am their leader

That quotable quote (-Gandhi) applies to the great friedman as easily as to many other a TPTB leader.

They are a bunch of fakers who pretend to be leaders by watching the herd and then racing to the front lines only after the direction of MSM travel has been ascertained.

CAN BUSINESS REGULATE ITSELF?

I think Sir Nicholas Stern summed this up best with this comment regarding the study he completed for the British Parliament on the costs of climate change to humanity.

"the biggest market failure the world has ever seen"

We have little time to get this response right. Of course, there is no "self-regulation" path. There never has been.

This oil calamity had better mark a turning point for the delusion that many people hold on this question. But I am not optimistic that we will collectively learn from the oil calamity - our institutions are too busted.

Actually, "climate change" is the single largest fraud ever perpetrated on humanity. Imagine, climate change is the normal operation of our environment, and every reconstruction of the past proves it. So, the moment someone can point to "change" occurring within recorded history, they shout catastrophe.

Cripes, history is replete with climate induced catastrophes, some within recorded history, some not. Besides, anyone pointing to any less than half century long trend on a chart as proof of something should get laughed, with vehemence, from any serious scientific discussion.

If the level of CO2 in our atmosphere is going to alter the climate radically, then we need a MUCH better scientific basis for believing it than selectively picking 30 or 50 or a 100 years out of , well... near countless millenia.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.-- Abraham Lincoln

Hell,I thought that was Mark Twain. So you really CAN learn something on TOD!

Sometimes you can even learn what isn't so: from Wikiquote, list of misattributed Lincoln quotes:
It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
* Variously attributed to Lincoln, Elbert Hubbard, Mark Twain, Benjamin Franklin and Socrates

It's an old concept, really. See Proverbs 13:3, "He who guards his lips guards his life, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin."

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

I love that quote - thank you ;) (wiping coffee off my keyboard)

That's a rather interesting belief system. If you stick around for a few more days, you'll find there aren't a lot of your fellow cultists here.

I've seen the list. I must have missed that one.

Yes, I have noticed the extreme incivility of the "liberals" here.

Kiss, kiss!

We have developed, by a variety of means, a fairly good history of our climate. Actually quite a good history.

For example, an ice core with 740,000 years of data was extracted from Antarctica in 2004.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/06/040611080100.htm

NEVER BEFORE HAS CLIMATE CHANGED THIS FAST !!

I expect to see an ice free Arctic Ocean within my lifetime, as one example. A truly unbelievable concept when I was a child and studying Commodore Perry dog sledding to the North Pole.

The only reasonable explanation is the massive, uncontrolled chemistry experiment that we are conducting on our atmosphere. The IPCC put the odds of the observed to date climate changes not being largely man-made as less than 5%.

Much less than 5% I would add.

Alan

PS: It is interesting to note that the Exxon mislead deniers (and it is a funded dis-information campaign modeled after the one tobacco ran for decades, the deniers are just dupes) have shifted from "no climate change" to "this must be natural change" without noting that what should take nature multiple centuries is happening in a single decade.

You said: "NEVER BEFORE HAS CLIMATE CHANGED THIS FAST !! "

Could you show me your proof of this? I happen to actually KNOW you have none.

Our actual accurate temperature measurements extend less than 2 centuries into history. After that point, we have a couple more centuries of records from a few places, and beyond that, we have proxies and reconstructions, none of which have any high degree of accuracy. The "fast change" you speak of is less than 1 degree in 3 decades. We have no means of determining the temperature in any reconstruction even to a single degree, further, in the reconstructions back into the historic millenia, we can barely, if all, determine any trend shorter than a half century, much less know if oscillations of 1 degree occurred within a 3 decade span.

In other words, after you examine the data upon which that statement is formed, remove the falsifications which have been entered into it to achieve the desired outcome, and then start the process of proving it by historical record, you can immediately conclude that the statement is pure fiction. It may be true, it may not be true, and we have no actual evidence either way. Please do not attempt to change society fundamentally, especially by means proven to not work, on the basis of such a complete lack of evidence.

We have ice core data (each summer there is a crust as snow turned to ice, the warmer the thicker the crust).

We have marine shells where growth rates, and even which species, are highly dependent on temperature (corals especially).

We have tree and flower pollen collected from lake beds. The advance and retreat of glaciers.And more.

We have Icelandic records of sea ice for over 1,000 years and tree lines and even species migration (European wasps appeared for the first time in history in Iceland). A tree introduced by birds from Europe grew but did not bloom for all recorded history in Iceland until a few years ago.

No falsification as you claim from so many disparate sources. That is just denier BS to deny reality.

*IF* there is just a 25% chance that humanity was warming the planet to an alarming degree (instead of the real 99+% probability), this would justify major changes to our economy and "American Way of Life" to prevent.

So, since you claim not to know, then you should write your Senator immediately demanding the strongest possible Climate Change bill !

Even a 25% risk to *FAR* to much !#

Alan

# We invaded Iraq for a far smaller % risk of *FAR* *FAR* smaller consequence.

From this article, you appear to be correct- the earth cooled in 2008 at a rate faster than any recorded in history:

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Widescale+Global+Co...

CERN is studying sun/cloud/temperature interactions that will clear all this climate change confusion up, I strongly suggest you watch it before assigning a risk to CO2 warming:

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073/?ln=fr

Bear in mind that cutting energy cuts living standards (that seems a common refrain here), and telling Africa, India, and the rest of the 3 billion humans living on less than $2 a day that they have to build capital-intensive wind/solar plants instead of cheaper pay-as-you-go fossil fuel plants will continue to conscript billions to ongoing poverty.

That is a zero-risk proposition.

So given that much of the data in Gore's movie and IPCC was faked, and scientists at MIT, Harvard, and CERN are calling AGW a fraud, are you so sure you're prepared to do that?

You said: "NEVER BEFORE HAS CLIMATE CHANGED THIS FAST !! "

One form of rapid natural change we do know about are called Heinrich events
Of course these required a large icesheet damned lake to collapse into the ocean. But it is true that in paleohistory climate isn't especially stable. It has been unusually stable the past few thousand years. It is probably NOT a coincidence that this was when civilization developed. Altering the atmospheric chemistry as we are doing will almost certainly bring about a much more variable climate than our civilization grew up with. We also had dramatic events such as the filling of the black sea, which obviously would change regional climates. But these changes revolved around catastrophic geological events. (I would classify human indistrialism as a catstrophic geological event also).

"NEVER BEFORE HAS CLIMATE CHANGED THIS FAST !!

Maybe untrue at least based on what has actually happened so far - and many more such references accumulated over the last decade.

But that doesn't negate any of the other arguments. OTOH, "denier" is a meme drawn from European laws concerning Holocaust history, and is more like an ad hominem than an actual argument.

As Nicholas Stern described, the climate effects of CO2 lie outside out present market economy, and yet have the potential to hugely impact on the future of both the economy and our entire society. They thus constitute a huge market failure.

Market failure refers to the problems that occur when the costs of some action are not adequately accounted for in the market - most commonly in situations where someone can dump pollutants in a "common" resource so that the community as a whole has to clean up the mess (or live with it) while the perpetrators either live somewhere else or at worst only share a small part of the costs (while collecting most of the profit...)

Even though climates have changed in the past (tho' usually quite slowly) the fact that CO2 emissions are most likely causing the present bout of climate change means that the cost of such impacts on our future way of life MUST BE accounted for if the economy is going to develop in a way that optimises the benefits and minimises the costs of negative impacts.

As for your red herring about countless millenia of history... well the market economy has only existed in its present form for a few centuries, and our present industrial economy only for a century at most. So yes, the costs of a rapidly changing climate are worrisome.

As Nicholas Stern described, the climate effects of CO2 lie outside out present market economy, and yet have the potential to hugely impact on the future of both the economy and our entire society. They thus constitute a huge market failure.

I was reading that Mercury News article. It places the cost over the rest of this century to Bay Area (mostly real estate) from sea level rise at $55B. And thats just one metro area. And a thousand years from now whatever civilization exists will have to deal with still continuing sealevel rise. But our current economic system almost totally discounts these far in the future costs. And we've seen it has spawned a huge denialist industry to harass the scientists and policymakers. Wouldn't want to have to take longterm consequences into account now would me.

Hi TOG, I could do a long rant about CC, and I'm even a sceptic :-\ but not denier. The science behind AGW, a better term, is much broader and deeper than the last 100 years, fossil records, ice cores etc. If you listen to podcasts is worth going to Radio ecoshock http://www.ecoshock.org/climate2010.htm
who have some of the top climate scientist. Have a listen to the carbon control knob.
CC is difficult to get one's head around because of latency and hysteresis in such a large, complex adaptive system.
I think one day, we may see that large corp's have done a big a cover up job as the tobacco industry, but my guess is that CC is only going to be one of a number of problems humanity will confront over the next few decades.
There's no point trying to persuade you in one post, it something one needs to go back and back to when if you doubt it.

1. Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?

The goal of business is to maximize return to the stock holders, by legal and ethical means. Any business that does not do this is not doing it’s job. It is the job of government to rein in business, by considering the cost to society from pollution, resource depletion, income inequality, health degradation, etc. It is also the job of society in general to reign in business by non governmental means.

The threat of lawsuits and penalties represents a real cost of doing bad business. Unfortunately, the total costs to society will never be captured in the courts. The cost of the Macondo blowout to BP will be beyond any potential cost savings. What I find more troubling is the smaller scale disasters such as leaks at Prudhoe bay and the Texas City refinery explosion that represent only a cost of doing business when profit is king. One need only look back 100 years to the mining industry, where a reduced life expectancy from black lung, silicosis, etc. was part of the job.

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?

Heck no. Unfortunately this has been the optimistic mantra of our society from the early days of the industrial revolution.

How have the recent events affected your beliefs?

I was a kid in Northern California when the 69 Santa Barbara spill occurred. To this day, California is wary of off sea drilling. I remember thinking when Obama this past winter favored off seal drilling that we had overcome the issues that led to that disaster. The recent blowout shows that no, the limitation is not technology, but the perceived safety that we feel from that technology. We are human, and will repeatedly make mistakes. Look back at the space shuttle explosions, and Apollo before that. Astronauts in the 60’s were out there – high reward with a reasonable risk of not making it back. By the time the 80’s rolled around, with the same technology space travel was deemed safe enough to send a teacher to space.

Carter launched the deregulation project, actually. To the extent it has any meaning whatsoever, Kennedy's one-liner about asking what you can do for you country rather than the reverse is a call for individualism, not public action. Obama is a fraud, through and through, who even now shows no sign of changing a damned thing. Have you heard him mention deregulation? Barely, if at all. He's going to play-act at concern and toughness, then restart deepwater drilling and go back to shagging for Wall Street money.

All in all, I'm alarmed by the huge gap between what our TOD leaders know about geology/ecology/energy/engineering and what they don't know about the basics of social structure, social psychology, and history.

Our problems are at least as much social and political as they are technical.

TPTB are going to finish fucking us, if we let them, which we will if we don't quickly get smart and honest about the nature and logic of their powers and privileges.

The answer to all 4 questions here is a huge No, obviously. Why pretend otherwise? Because this is where the water gets really hot really fast?

TOD leaders ... they don't know about the basics of social structure, social psychology, and history.

Actually, we have had many discussions about the human brain and social structures.

Check out Nate Hagens' Campfire series.

"The answer to all 4 questions here is a huge No, obviously."

And what form will this "huge no" take?

Some people are already saying no to BAU. Most never will, because they would be saying no to themselves, to all they are used to, no to the faux comforts they rely on for self esteem and status, no to all that they have been told, taught,,,no to the futures they have invested in.

Reality will be the big "No".

All in all, I'm alarmed by the huge gap between what our TOD leaders know about geology/ecology/energy/engineering and what they don't know about the basics of social structure, social psychology, and history.

Our problems are at least as much social and political as they are technical.

TPTB are going to finish fucking us, if we let them, which we will if we don't quickly get smart and honest about the nature and logic of their powers and privileges.

+10!!!!

Until we have economic and social systems that do not reward sociopaths, we are essentially screwed.
Not only do we reward psychopaths, we admire them!
Capitalism goes, or we go.

So, what is your solution to 'capitalism' and could you explain where it has been implemented so we can see how well it has worked?

Jeez, geez, I keep waiting for your lesson on capitalism, hoping for enlightenment. Only questions so far. Is it an ideal that has never been truly tested and never will be? A lot of ideas look good on paper. Methinks human societies are as incompatible with capitalsm as they are with anarchy.

Following is a contribution to the art of "quad charts" (apologies to Meyers-Briggs and Gartner Group).

The X-axis refers to the person's style of decision making. The left end uses the legal system's approach, which ascertains truth by having people divide into camps and letting their advocates argue the matter out on the basis of whatever information can be brought forward, followed by a vote. The right end requires a consensual decision based on the collection and analysis of data, model building and testing, and general agreement on the best fit of models to the data.

The Y-axis refers to whether the person assumes the concrete objective existence of reality that obeys natural laws independent of any human wishes or desires, or whether the person assumes that humans can largely control the natural environment, either through some undefined collective activity or by engaging the help of some higher power.

I've put some typical occupations in the quadrants. Managers tend to be hard-headed, but they are used to making binary decisions on the basis of incomplete data. Engineers want all the data and they want to understand it and vet the models with their colleagues before deciding. Politicians engage in more wishful thinking than the managers. Environmentalists of the "lets all go to the Gulf and save all the birds" types are in the wishful thinking camp. They collect a lot of information but they are not too careful of the validity, although the scientists among them fit with the engineers, and those driven by particular causes fit with the politicians.

          |   Logical    |  Quantitative    |
          | Argumentative|   Consensual     |
          |              |                  |
----------||=============|=================||
          ||             |                 ||
Skeptical ||  Managers   |   Engineers     ||
Realists  ||             |                 ||
          ||             |                 ||
----------||-------------|-----------------||
          ||             |                 ||
Gullible  || Politicians |Environmentalists|| 
Believers ||             |                 ||
          ||             |                 ||
----------||=============|=================||

Politicians (good ones, anyway) aren't gullible believers. They play to that tendency in their constituents. You had to make up your own definition of "environmenalists" to make them fit into the lower-right box.

Great stuff!
"1. Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?" & "2. Can technology solve our all our problems?"
I believe the answers to the first two questions could be indicate where a person will stand on a broad range of issues. On cannot make a special case for oil or energy because the inconsistency would require more than intellectual gymnastics. Do we exempt medicine, space exploration or basic quality of life issues from objective and unbiased judgment?
A specific ethical discipline developed in response to capitalism and the industrial, technological and information revolutions. They must be subject to doubt and investigation because they can only be a means to progress.
When we cease to observe and experiment, science will fail to further knowledge.
It is only through doubt and mistrust that critical thinking does not cease so we become hostage to dogma and faith which is an end in itself.
It is more than irony that human caused catastrophe jolts our conscience as well as our intellect. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire and the Titanic a year later sobered our entry into the 20th Century. One hundred years later we need to admit human fallibility. The consequences of hubris not only exist, the relationship between error and catastrophe means the latter will be more significant.

Thanks Gail.

1. Recent events have not changed our beliefs, but have made it clear that the direction my husband & I suspected things were moving in are, in fact, coming on quickly.

2. I think the best and most effective method is in our own local communities. For example, once we realized that we could harvest lots of vegetables in the dead of winter, we began to reach out to others who are already interested in growing their own food, but who haven't made the step away from depending on food coming from 1500 miles away in the winter. It seems easiest and most appropriate to work in small steps with immediate results, with people are going to be most interested. Likewise, the success of urban pea patch projects has been helpful to teach urban dwellers that they don't have to buy all of their food at the store. It's a very small, but tangible, step in the right direction.

3. Opportunities? The overall difficulty is that 1) the above may be too little, too late, and that 2) the MSP (as in main-stream population) doesn't get it. I think this is a wake-up call that will hit a few more people to amp up their learning curve. I hate to say it, but I think that the longer the GOM catastrophe continues - the greater will be the wake-up call. At least I hope so. BP has been very helpful in this regard. Had they opened up to the press and all interested parties, the GOM spill would have left the front pages long again -- but they've created a situation wherein the MSM is becoming more and more involved.

This has some shock value, which is what Americans seem to need.

BTW, One of the best books that I've come across is The Consumer's Guide to Effective Environmental Choices: Practical Advice from the Union of Concerned Scientists. They have comprehensively reviewed all of the activities that consumers, not industry itself, do that create "normal" and toxic pollution. They identify, the degree of water, soil, and air pollution.

This gives the user a great tool to really identify how, "I", as an individual, can help.

Hello, I've been on TOD for about a month to a month and a half. I'm not a scientist but rather a recent college graduate, and up till now I have been content to read articles by people who know a lot more than I do.

Firstly, I want to congratulate TOD, readers, and contributors, on making a very welcoming site, and one that breaks down complex topics/issues into a much more readable and understandable light.

Secondly, I am in a bit of a quandary as someone from the younger generation in the United States, and one who is likely going to have to deal with the decline of oil in my lifetime, it is obviously that in my best interests, along with many other people in the world, to do what we can to make a transition smooth.

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? For example, if there is going to be less, an attitude of sharing what we have might be helpful. Income Inequality in the US is very high. Is there a way we can even out this inequality, so that the resources we have could be shared better?

I'm no expert, most of my knowledge comes from places like TOD, but it seems to me that the biggest problem with a shift into an attitude of sharing is that the gov't has no accountability. Referenced in this post was JFK's infamous, "ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country". Since the time of JFK, I think we can all agree that there has been a remarkable shift from a unified country, to a country who is made up by many individuals, all of whom are striving to get ahead for themselves, and their little respective bubbles.

In this shift, it appears we (I use we in the most general sense, interpret it as you will - the general populace, mankind etc. etc.) have begun to forget that we all are in this together.

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

It appears we are on a precipice. I quote from the article when I say: "One wonders too, what other problems lurk around the corner, in other deregulated industries." It seems that the country is at a possible turning point, with people waking up and realizing that we are living beyond are means.

Just yesterday, at my job, (currently working in the deli of a local supermarket, not glorious but it helps pay the bills) for the first time in a long time, I had a customer come up to me, and say: Have you heard about how awful the Gulf Spill is". Later that day, I had the same discussion with 2 - 3 other people, correcting them on a few facts that I have learned from TOD are either grossly over/under exaggerated in much of the reports on the gulf.

I live in a well off area, and we pretty much define living past our means. But if the Gulf Spill can have an impact on our sort of area, I wonder now exactly how much of an impact it can have. At this point I turn to myself and ask - well how did this happen? We've determined that it was from lack of accountability and overreaching by BP, and while the vast majority of the readership on this site can see the parallels between BP, and likely many other companies - I give the situation with Goldman Sach's as an example, does the general populace. If so is it enough to jolt people, like those in my area, out of their complacency and realize that accountability needs to be returned to the country...

I believe a unique opportunity has presented itself to this country...the question is are we going to use it?

Just a few meandering thoughts about the current situation: and again thank you to all who post/read/contribute in any way to this site :)

~Dawn

Well said. I think and hope that the GOM catrosphere is a blessing in disguise in that it has the potential of moving everyone's understanding and/or committment up one notch.

Those who have been oblivious - at least hear of the idea that oil isn't going to last forever.
Those who've heard about it - think about it a little more and talk to others
Those who've thought about it - learn a lot more begin to promote getting more knowledge to others
Those who've been getting knowlege - begin to put that knowledge into action in their own lives
Those who've been changing their own lives - begin to interact more in their community
Those community activists - begin finding an audience - both political and non-political as well as the MSM and begin to tentatively reach ...
...Those who have been oblivious ...

Am I an idealist? yes, probably - but I firmly believe that if we aren't doing the small steps that we, as individuals, can do at whatever level we are currently - then nothing will change.

Welcome.

By all means, use what you learn here to correct the information that might be incorrect amoung those you talk to at work, on the street, or at home.

TOD has been a clearing house of information for a long time, several people who are living close to sustainable lives have posts in the archives about how they are doing their level best to get more off the grid and eating locally. And even people who have not made key posts have commented on their own efforts, It is hard to do 5 years worth of reading though.

Young people will be better off the more they know about what is headed their way than not knowing anything is up.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs From Arkansas.

Dawn,

The US was built on the idea that people could work to improve their lot in life- instead of the king's. In the early 1960s it was common belief that you could work your way up the corporate ladder and, on the way, improve yourself (and your family). That a significant portion of the population was excluded from this- because of their race, sex, or location on the planet- striving became a sticking point. Whether government intervention was required to get people to determine minorities, women, and foreigners could participate in this striving will never be known for sure, but government intervention it was- with mostly positive results in terms of women, minorities, and foreigners participation.

Now the question is whether the earth has the resources to continue this growth, or if growth must be constrained (and in all fairness, in the developed world). This site is dedicated to the idea that we are running out of oil and will run out of coal. OK- but will we run out of plutonium (if we can reprocess it?) Will we run out of the sun? Will we run out of ideas?

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
Charles H. Duell, Commissioner of the US Patent Office 1899

I don't think so- do you? If so, then you will not do too well in the corporate/organizational climb, as that is reserved for those who figure out new ideas for energy, food, and teaching Billy to read.

A couple last facts to consider- more steel is now recycled from cars than is used to build them, and there are more trees in the US than any time in history.

Hi Dirk,

been reading your posts with great interest. This, however, requires links to the source of information:

"...and there are more trees in the US than any time in history."

Perhaps it's true, if we include all of the individual trees people or cities plant in their yards or along the roads. Those are not equivalent to whole ecosystems, as the vast majority of those cannot survive on their own outside of their own original ecosystems. Let's say all the trees planted in Phoenix, AZ, a natural desert, for example.

My point is that man-made temporary ecosystems (birds will nest in them - sure; insects will pollinate them) but they are dead ends should anything happen to their caretakers.

In the early 1960s it was common belief that you could work your way up the corporate ladder and, on the way, improve yourself (and your family).

This "common belief" is a fallacy on several levels.

First, the corporate ladder is a pyramid. Not everyone can reach the top, or even the middle. it is a competitive construct, not a co-operative one. It anticipates some being left behind.

There was a second stream to this structure: Henry Ford's idea that his workers had to be able to afford the products they made. Lack of global markets made it necessary to market to the workers; a system developed where those who made the products could have a decent life. You didn't have to rise all the way up the ladder. The lower levels were quite acceptable.

Farther up thread, one of your posts includes this paragraph:

I used to own part of a factory there. We paid about 50% more than competitors, and tried to implement western team-based management practices (as opposed to command and control where, if you made a mistake, the response was for you to stand in the middle of the factory floor and get yelled at). It wasn't easy getting them to accept that idea. Progress is slow sometimes.

While paying higher than the going rate (so that it was- what? one fifteenth of a western wage rather than a sixteenth?) is marginally admirable, you (and guys like you) export jobs that could have gone to those who are now struggling to raise a family while working at McDonalds. They can't all be managers, and the factory jobs that they could have made a decent living at are gone. Unemployment goes up, contract positions become the norm, both partners have to work.

If so, then you will not do too well in the corporate/organizational climb, as that is reserved for those who figure out new ideas for energy, food, and teaching Billy to read.

You didn't make it solely with a better idea- you made it by exporting cheap Chinese labour to the US. You transferred the lower ends of the ladder to China. The person who might have worked their way up from the shop floor in Minnesota has been replaced by someone named Chan who doesn't pay any American Income Tax.

Do a little thought experiment: that Chinese factory. If all those labourers were American, how wide would the base of the corporate pyramid/ladder be? How many American managers would you have to add to your payroll? Lots of people have ideas. Being in a place where you can learn how to institute them is the problem. With so much manufacturing going to China, we have lost an entire sector of our economy, and not just the jobs at the bottom: many management positions went with them as well. Those mid-level jobs where you learn how get your ideas heard.

Will we run out of the sun? Will we run out of ideas?

Without oil inputs for agriculture, we are in massive overshoot of the Earth's human population carrying capacity. So no, we won't run out of sun: the problem is that sun alone will not allow all of us to survive.

And you can't eat ideas.

Your "Belief systems at a turning point" may be occurring now if you are a Repiglican or conservative. If you are an authoritarian follower who values loyalty above all else, you may have had many good reasons lately for your "belief systems" to be questioned:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

I suggest you move entirely away from "belief systems" and base your thoughts on facts wherever possible. If you find someone who's has been known to lie, on several occasions, then you should consider their credibility severely reduced.

The tree-huggers have never accepted unregulated capitalism, trickle-down economics, or drill-baby-drill. No, it's the rise of the reich-wing, religious right in America, starting with one of the worse presidents ever: Reagan. The 'southern strategy' to exploit racism, combined with phony economic theory based on greed (just what the elites love), has taken America straight into a ditch. Let's hope it's a 'turning point'. Finally.

"Your "Belief systems at a turning point" may be occurring now if you are a Repiglican or conservative. If you are an authoritarian follower who values loyalty above all else, you may have had many good reasons lately for your "belief systems" to be questioned:"

Does this give me license to spew hatred and venom at "liberulz"?

You SERIOUSLY have a deficient "belief system" if this is your approach to humanity.

Maybe we should start with teaching geography in schools. Once people understand just how limited our land mass is and how fragile the environment is on Earth maybe then we will take much better care of our home. But, that may be the most optimistic route, not the most immediate.

Take for instance the fact that our land area is only about a third of the entire globe. Then, distill it down to what limited natural resources there are to utilize or, a more apt term, exploit.

How much of the land is arable? Less and less with each generation. Some actually believe global warming (for those who admit that it does at all exist) could be a good thing. A National Geographic article recently featured Greenland where some crops are doing much better in warmer weather patterns. A downside of course is flooding and torrential rains that make farming a lot more difficult since the growing season is much shorter there than it is at lower latitudes.

The fact is, no matter how many do-gooders there are who want to preserve our resources and be good stewards of the Earth on which we all live, poverty, disease, famine, drought, hunger, wars and desertification of previously arable land are all making us ask questions about how we will survive for now and in the future.

The most visceral, but I think inevitable, course we will take is to use military might to protect and preserve what we have against those whose desperation will cause them to attack, even at great risk and odds against them, those who have more.

On the darker side, that same military power will end up being used to overpowe weaker countries and take by force those resources we need in order to endure.

Some may think, as technophiles like Energy Secretary Chu believe, our ingenuity will overcome all obstacles and solve all our needs. But, our primal instincts for survival will come down to one overriding solution -- Brute Force.

After all, in Afghanistan the Taliban are still using horses to fight the smartest, best equipped most technologically advanced military the world has seen. But we are still there after 8 years -- only because we don't have the stomach or the will to completely immolate our foes with the Brute Force we have available.

Teaching it in schools won't do a thing if nobody around is living it. Young kids easily accept ecology and green living principles. The rub comes in when they don't see any adults actually following through with it.

Not only do we need to talk the talk, more of us need to walk the walk. Somehow all these adults need to be retrained.

LOL, what's taught in schools is not 'teaching' anything, it's brainwashing. It's pretending that 'recycling' your glass and aluminum is some kind of signficant change in your life. It's movie stars jetting about in private jets to "summits" to tell us to drive less. All these do is create cynical attitudes among people who can see that these 'efforts' are not signficant, and in fact, tend to be hypocritical.

It takes little observation to realize that our 'environmental' policies are outrageously nonsensical. We strain at gnats and swallow camels, and have a capricious method of targeting specific things and ignoring others. All this invites cynicism by younger generations, who, by nature, observe and recognize those things in thier natural course of rebelling against that which is dictated to them, and they cannot reconcile the intent with the action.

What, you never thought you'd they'd notice that you choose to live in large home, fly to europe on vacation, but get all self righteous about separating the paper from the glass and plastic? Of course they do. As do many who're just a little less influenced by pop culture and we laugh at the silliness.

The Bible mocks those who strain at gnats and swallow camels, who pick at slivers in others, but have logs in their own eyes, it's a time honored tradition, designed to make people lose the hipocrisy and become more honest. Let's hear it for the Prius drivers who had a perfectly good vehicle destroyed to get it - wasting all that was invested in it to make it, the creation of that Prius which caused immense amounts of pollution, and the disposal of which will be another nightmare of pollution, as opposed to the people who bought simple cars, drove them for many, many years, recycling parts along the way, and when finally, all the useful life is extracted from the vehicle, have it sanely recycled - cleanly.

Yet, same self described righteous people turn on those who live frugally, but don't flaunt the "social markers" of correctness with anger and condemnation. Me, I just live frugally and love life and the world God made for me to take care of... and I take my stewardship seriously. He meant for me to use my brain, not emotions, in caring for it.

Yes, what is interesting when you read about armchair environmentalists and so-called philanthropists buying up thousands of acres of rain forest in order to create wildlife refuges and protect the flora and fauna. All too often, those restricted areas that were originally well provided with water and food for predators soon run out of room, water and available food due to overpopulation and lack of control by local populations. That is when you get mass starvation and animals dying of thirst in regions where humans themselves can barely find enough to subsist on.

Animals like elephants are poached and killed for their ivory tusks, tigers for their skins and other exotic animals killed just for their meat that locals need to feed their families. It's simply the way of the world. Putting a finger in the dike may seem like slowing the leaks but inevitably the water comes like a gusher. The philanthropists simply shake their heads and wonder why they even tried. In fact, they may well have made matters much worse because of the promises they made that were unlikely to ever be kept.

We could have learned a long time ago that subsistence living and a clean environment, along with preserving natural habitat, inhabitants and flora and fauna is not compatible. Subsistence living exploits every item of possible use, for the most rudimentary or utilitarian of uses.

The questions posed at the beginning of this thread are easier to answer than taking the following step and asking where do we go from here. Especially after reading through all the 200 comments.

It is clear that the deregulation of private industry has been a failure as witnessed by the examples of Enron, BP, coal industry and our financial institutions. This BP disaster only reinforces this for most people.

So we see the failure of the private sector in self regulation. This brings us toward the public sector, or government to then take up the task of functioning as an unbiased and competent "regulator".

Do we believe that our government could free itself of the ways it is beholden of the private sector to ever function as an effective regulator?

I don't have "audacity of hope" or belief in our government's ability to function independent of the interests of the private sector.

So if we arrive to the conclusion of the incompetence of both our private and public sector we can then scan these 190 comments for where to turn? I see religion and the planting of beans being offered.

It seems that each unfolding crisis further erodes the confidence and belief in our existing institutions to solve our problems. Each crisis seems to slowly be waking us up to a realization of being somehow checkmated.

Feeling checkmated collectively is a sentiment I see increasing with each unfolding crisis.

I am curious about something. What force will this state of "checkmate" create going forward when we search the landscape for how change, reform or transition might happen??

As a chess player, Not very good mind you, but I can play the game. I'd this. Game over, so which do you want to play now, white or black, and start a new game.

While I don't think of this all as Game over, I think we are heading toward something that none of us can really see what happens next in living our life.

Long ago while living in Iceland, there was this little road going out to the village we lived in. Down a lava rock road and around a curve and you are going up a hill and all you can see is the road leading into the vast ocean beyond. Scary when you think about it, we can't see what is next over the rise of the road ahead, or around the bend in the road.

In my story, we'd get to the top of the hill and see the pretty houses stretching out below us. But we aren't to the top of the hill yet, and what we see scares us.

Sometimes we have to just close Our eyes and forge ahead a bit longer. It is not going to be easy, no one ever said life was going to be easy. Good parent's teach their kids to get up again and dust themselves off and go about doing the task ahead even if they might fall down and fail again. Failure is when you don't get up again, failure is when you look at the hill ahead of you and turn around to go home to the easy stuff.

I won't get out of life alive, but I'll die trying. ( I am sure someone else said it before I just did ).

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs From Arkansas

CEO,
My friend. I suggest you get a copy of Joseph Cambell's book, Reflections on the art of Living. Got to get comfortable with dying before you can really start to live.

Been posting at various sites and now started my own. Very apropos to the questions Gail is asking.

Questions we need to ask ourselves and go much much deeper. They barely skim the surface of what we are up against here.

A transition of and Era, the end of an age (of petroleum).

For a blinder ripping look at life as we know it and how we might transition from here to there, please visit my blog

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com

Truth, ruthlessly spoken.

Big questions that beg for solutions? Here is a guy who is long on explaining the problem, short on explaining solutions:

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

I suspect there are no solutions, only mitigation strategies. At least there are no solutions that most of us would want to volunteer for. I have been studying these sorts of things since 1975.

Question 1.

Regulation of businesses waxes and wanes and concerns a tremendous amount of of principles, laws, rules, conventions, agreements, constraints that are spelled out (or obvious), and so on. Just for flavor: intellectual property law, patents; salaries, taxes, tariffs, work safety, treatment of employees; transport and traffic rules; hygiene, pollution and other externalities; finance and accounting; best practices; obeying laws in many other areas.

Businesses never regulate themselves as they are in a larger environment that regulates (in the sense of influences, constrains, obliges) them.

The question should rather be, for enterprises that are involved in technologically complex and potentially devastating activities, what rules or regulations should be set up? Who is to decide? How are these decisions to be coded into regulations?

Next comes the question of conformity, compliance and control and enforcement by an outside agency.

Which is a whole other bag of beans. Plate of beans, sorry. What is clear, and made stark by the BP oil spill (and many other recent events) is that in a zeitgeist where competition in view of financial gain is tantamount, individuals and corporations will ‘cheat’ and ‘cut corners’ and use ‘blackmail’, ‘influence’, propaganda, etc. to come out with a better ‘score’ than competitors. They routinely ignore or underestimate 'risk' - to themselves and others - as the expectation of great rewards overrides probabilities and long-term viability, effects, etc.

The status of a business is principally judged only on the financial aspect - profits, stock price, dividends, investment for expansion (to rise even higher), competition on the price of goods, etc. There aren’t really any other criteria, except for the fuzzy and quasi religious and to my mind weird ‘the market will decide’ - e.g. to buy Barbies or rag dolls; caviar or cheap pickles; buy green or Wallmart; be blasted by speculators or not, etc.

The ‘decision’ rests with the end user/consumer/investor who shells out from his pocket book, usually garnished by one or the other business - from Goldman Sachs to BP to a Benetton franchise to a Mom and Pop store.

The focus on profit and growth at all costs prevents other dimensions from being treated in any serious way. As long as this is not acknowledged, it will not be possible to ‘regulate’ businesses in a half-way decent, or satisfactory fashion. The profit motive will win over compliance, even when regulation is very stiff.

And regulation costs the society a great deal of money in the shape of inefficient controls, as the controls fall into the sphere of non-profit activities, and are usually paid for by the tax payer, who most often would prefer to buy gas, or Barbies, or a flat screen, or shares in GS, etc.

The ultimate example is the prison: to control and constrain ppl’s behavior by force and regulations is incredibly expensive and cumbersome.

There are also questions of morality and responsibility pertinent here, but I am not addressing them directly. Simply said, one cannot, by decree, or law, or punitive measures, enforce human caring, human sympathy, more widely, the conservation of the commons, which must include non-human organisms and nature as a whole.

The question was about regulation and the locus of it, aka prescription and control, forced (or encouraged, suggested, etc.) compliance with or adherence to procedures and standards that are...

Communally elaborated? Decided by the industry itself? By politicians in view of gathering votes? By lobbyists who influence the democratic process? By super-technocrats who decide best practices and establish them in concrete? By following plain common sense and/or doing ’what is right’? Laid out, as general principles, in a Constitution?

These are the kinds of questions that require answers.....

You said: "Which is a whole other bag of beans. Plate of beans, sorry. What is clear, and made stark by the BP oil spill (and many other recent events) is that in a zeitgeist where competition in view of financial gain is tantamount, individuals and corporations will ‘cheat’ and ‘cut corners’ and use ‘blackmail’, ‘influence’, propaganda, etc. to come out with a better ‘score’ than competitors. They routinely ignore or underestimate 'risk' - to themselves and others - as the expectation of great rewards overrides probabilities and long-term viability, effects, etc. "

I'd like to point out to you that this, in and of itself, really is not true. As a business owner, but more importantly, one who has dealt with the very large entities which more closely resemble BP in structure, BP itself isn't grasping and clawing to be superior to their competition. In fact, in the environment they're in, it's more along the lines of individual survival. BP may be large, but within the realm of petroleum products, they're simply not focused upon their competitor, trying to "drill the cheaper well" than the guy next to them. If memory serves, BP's profit margin was single digits, meaning rather small and seemingly insignficant things could move them from positive to negative territory, and negative territory means your borrowing ability drops off, investors walk away, and eventually, you split off things that you can sell, till you find the core bits that still work.

In this case, each area of operation must compete inside the company, each manager must prove himself worthy of his paycheck, or out they go. The competition is WITHIN the company, not externally, that leads to the actions you state. And, for the most part, they only occur in desperate times, when backs are to the wall.

Again, I repeat my call, not for more words on paper to control procedures and systems more closely by people who are not engaged in the mechanics of extracting oil from under the ground, but for personal accountability and responsibility by those from the ground to the top. Systems of fines and straitjackets of regulations do not accomplish this...

Excellent comment. I'm going to be very interested to learn why the BP company man pushed to have that well filled with salt water when challenged by the Transocean people- and if this decision was escalated to management within either company.

Like most problems of this magnitude, there will be a series of mis-steps and mistakes any one of which may have prevented this, like 911 and the Challenger disaster.

Believing business will regulate itself is like believing the Mafia won't commit crimes if the police went away. Every business is looking for ways to reduce costs and if they believe they won't get caught breaking the rules then they will break the rules. When the GOP talks about limiting government they mean limiting the regulation of business if not by repealing the laws then by underfunding regulatory industries. Currently we don't have enough cops to enforce all the regulations on the books.

It is not a question of having the technologies to solve our problems it is a question of having the political will to implement those technologies. The technology to prevent the BP blowout exists and would have worked if used properly. Instead the was a 10 year old BOP with dead batteries. There is evidence of a poorly executed cementing job. There was some sort of gas leak on the platform due to bad plumbing. There was a much too cozy relationship with regulators at the MMS. There is the self contradictory missions of the MMS itself. Eliminate just one of those poorly executed jobs and the blowout would not have happened.
There is a rule that commercial vehicles must have retreaded tires on the front since a separated tread could mean the loss of steering and a deadly accident. That BOP was a retread and a very poor retread at that.

Tech solutions take time to be implemented and should have been started long ago. Market forces have not been there to make those changes and the political will still isn't there to have the government force those changes quickly enough.

Is the oil there? The record high prices of the last 5 years have had little impact on supply. Companies are going into untried areas of the world, mostly under water, to find the remaining oil.

Recent events have not changed my beliefs. They have only reinforced what I have believed all along.

As for income inequality the solution is for the Feds to make it possible for state and local governments to hire more teachers, police, health care providers, street repair crews, etc. This will open up jobs for the currently unemployed. There are still the long term unemployed which business is unlikely to hire. Businesses prefer to hire people who already work elsewhere over the guy who just cashed his last unemployment check. The government should hire and train these people and pay them a living wage. There is more than enough infrastructure out there that needs repair or replacement to keep these folks busy.

Recent events have shown us just how threatening fossil fuel use is to the general public as well as to these working in these industries. This blowout and the tailing pond dam failure show us how the public can be affected by industry mistakes. The opportunities at this time are mostly political and favor more government support for green energy technologies and efficiency improvements. The cost of the change over is dependent on the cost of fossil fuels to get the job done. This makes it cheaper to continue BAU even if a carbon tax is imposed. Anything that change the price of FF changes the price of alternatives and new more efficient vehicles, buildings, and devices. The government must bear this extra cost for a considerable time into the future.

1. Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?

When you were a kid in school, could you and all the other kids generally be expected to do homework faithfully without parents lording it over you & establishing certain consequences were homework assignments to be become neglected? In my personal experience the answer would be no. Left to our own devices it would have been "Lord of the Flies" time, in no time at all.

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?

Technology is one of our problems, and the cure can never be the same as the disease. Technology is just primate tool use carried to the nth degree. Are we gonna stop being tool using primates? No. Could we stop even if we determined that it was indicated? I don't think so. We are technological beings for better or worse. We might think about learning moderation.

3. If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?

No, or at least not usually. Things take time. Sometimes not so much, other times you gotta wait. If some activity of yours could conceivably require a tech. solution double-quick, you'd better take steps to have one -or preferably several- tested and close at hand on the shelf. You don't wait for the fire to start before buying an extinguisher....then again if you're BP and the MMS, maybe you do.

4. Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is available?

Who knows? Depends what you mean by "depend" and who "everyone" is. I distrust the opinion of anybody or anything that has a commercial or political (those are the same thing most of the time) or religious interest in what my opinion is.

Questions

1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?

My beliefs about what? Resource depletion? Not at all. Environmental risks & degradation? Not at all. Human shortsightedness? Not at all.

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs...

Uuuuh, these are all toughies. Well, having spent decades trying to influence peoples' religious beliefs before I came to my senses and got out of that racket, I can tell you that gradually is the name of the game. Things people really believe as opposed to what they opine from time to time only change very slowly, if at all. I think that train has already left the station however and "gradually" is no longer on the table. We will all be overtaken by events before we have the luxury of gradually adjusting what we believe. I don't think the income inequality will be eliminated voluntarily, but I suspect it is inevitable that the extremes will go away through wealth destruction generally. There will always be some inequality of income. Done moderately it isn't a bad thing.

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?

I think there's gonna be some real deals on beach property in the Gulf. ;-)

We are good at explanations. The exponential nature of growth or the power of machines to undermine human beings since the beginning of the industrial revolution as recent examples on this thread.

Every community has a weakness where there is a taboo or something "politically incorrect" to bring to the table.

In this here Oil Drum community, which started as pioneers but may be reflecting as time passes a growing cross section of the greater society, there is probably a sacred assumption that would be a taboo to challenge and that is that education and analysis can wake people up or move transition forward.

Maybe it wont.

We spend globs and globs of brain cells dissecting our disintegrating society and yet all the truths revealed haven't resulted in much traction toward mitigation.

I predict this will continue to be the case because these discussions variably wind themselves down to a deeper collective awareness of being checkmated.

I think that is the dreaded undercurrent of unease and anxiety that is felt by society at large on a more intuitive level.

I don't want to suggest that there is a futility toward actions and solutions and that the demons of chaos that we have unleashed are the only arbitrators that we are forced to surrender to but I do see the failure of existing institutions
going forward further reinforcing a sense of "loss of control" rather than galvanizing us toward solutions and sacrifice to make it happen.

I think we underestimate what we already understand intuitively.

We are not capable to solve our problems any longer with the existing institutions and that solutions will no longer come from within.

Even my comments here are just one more facet, one more shovel full analytical shit to add to the ever growing pile.

Gail's question about beliefs gets at the most elemental of human rational processes. "Belief" begins when the infant learns to expect the arrival of the maternal breast in response to its hunger pangs and bleating cries. Knowledge is not more than a system of high confidence in particular beliefs.

I went through a paradigm shift in my belief system a couple of years ago when a new understanding of brain function dawned on me; I shook from head to toe for over an hour and, for the next week, every time I contemplated what I had grasped I would tremble. There may be people going through that sort of neurological adjustment of their beliefs due to the oil gush in the Gulf, but few of them would be among the people who follow this blog -- because folks here have already accommodated their expectations to catastrophic social events and many are seeking the breast of nurture elsewhere on mother earth than at the oil wells. Others here remain confident that their body of knowledge can continue to expand while their confreres are draining the earth's crust of its resources. How beneficent or harmful that expansion of technical knowledge can be to the human social project is implicit in Gail's question. However, both forms of accommodation may run counter to creative solutions to the present crisis. Please forgive a long post from a newbie as I introduce that paradigm shift in my thinking to you. I think it is relevant to the circular rational thinking that develops around a problem to be solved. Wisdom is prepared to re-examine beliefs, as Gail suggests. It also bears on several of the mistaken concepts of mental behaviour (e.g., what is "creative" about schizophrenia) that keep cropping up in this sector of cyberspace.

Following the Pressure Tutorial here is like a long listen to my adored dad. He was one of the designers of the world’s first atomic power plant at Chalk River, Ontario, Canada during WWII. He taught me before kindergarten age to read numbers with decimals correctly to “help him” proofread his second post-grad degree thesis. I learned much through his brilliant teaching, and more through his behaviour; for example, that when I as a teen came up with a solution to a technical problem in his laboratory he’d been telling me about for days he would not acknowledge (to me) my contribution, although the paper he later wrote on the solution would win him an industry award. I did not expect credit within his profession! Just honesty in our relationship and, maybe, bragging rights in my high school science class (although sworn secrecy would have been a thrill, too). Perhaps that is part of the reason I veered towards language and a fascination with human behaviour. Dad’s behaviour was inexplicably erratic in other ways. Not until after one of our sons was diagnosed as schizophrenic and I began to read a psychiatry text about schizophrenia did I recognize Dad’s patterns of behaviour as bipolarity. Dad had died the previous year.
Daniel’s behaviour was even more agonizing to deal with than my father’s had been. Ten years into Dan’s diagnosis I had applied the scientific method of trial and error to learn a few things that ran in the teeth of conventional medicine and that proved to my satisfaction psychiatrists didn’t know what they were talking about. For example, Dan recovered better from an episode of psychosis on a tiny fraction (1/96) of just one of the medications given to him in hospital. For another, I had noticed for years and had tested three times the two-minute intervals of better and lesser cognitive function that characterized Dan's mental function during psychotic episodes. Then, two years ago, imprisoned by winter conditions with Dan during a severe episode of his psychosis (on only minuscule medication)when Dan verbalized constantly from waking until sleeping - a circumstance a bit like the oil spew - I began to think maybe I was still smart enough to learn some neurology. Starting with the fact that Dan had been cured of his dyslexic syndrome just before his first psychotic break, I endeavoured to learn more about the theory of ear stimulation that had accomplished that “miracle.” The psychotic Dan had said a couple of times, “I’m dyslexic again.” I thought he meant the conditions were concurrent; now I realized he was saying that from his point of experience dyslexia and psychosis were the same. Long story short: I learned that a home-grown version of high-frequency music ear stimulation, i.e., an ordinary CD of violin music, combined with kindergarten-simple colouring of mandala patterns, cured Daniel’s classic symptoms of schizophrenia. It took 11 months. That "experiment" replicated similar healings of at least two of his previous episodes of psychosis where Dan had reached out for music on his own behalf.
By analyzing Daniel's language patterns (and other behaviour) during psychosis I was able to explain his schizophrenic neurology. Through my "library" research, conducted largely on the Internet and from basic texts (e.g., Grey's Anatomy) in Dad’s library (because I already live in the isolated country style the rest of ahe world may be returning to), I was able to describe the neurological paradigm that explains Daniel’s healings from both dyslexic syndrome and from schizophrenia (and the phases of bipolarity, etc. he traversed between those conditions). But my Eureka Moment led to more: the spectrum of human behaviours from the range of normal through the various forms of so-called “mental" illness — but that actually originate in the middle and inner ear (the “microchip”) — are determined by the level of integration of the hemispheres of the brain under the dominance of the left cerebral hemisphere (the “control panel”). That knowledge is my contribution to behavioural science and builds on the discoveries of the French otolaryngolgist Dr. Alfred Tomatis.

Some of the best metaphors (all language is metaphor) for describing the most powerful operation of the nervous system probably come not from the metalanguage of engineering ("microchip" and "control panel") but from the metalanguage of religion. Let's not forget that some of those fundamentalists with the terrifying political notions can heal a sick or injured body from a distance. I cannot (yet?) describe the physics of what happens when two or three are gathered together aligned to the Divine will, but it may be something like amplified sound. My prayer life had something to do with my ability to envision Daniel's healing; had a lot to do with introspection of my own mental processes; and allowed me to draw on models of extreme adherence to left-brain rationality and highly integrated thought processes at which Jesus seems to have excelled. (My father spent a lot of his spare time translating Biblical concepts into contemporary scientific terms for fellow Christians, for example, the consonances between the Big Bang and the opening verses of Genesis; he taught himself astronomy to provide the science for the Bethlehem Star.)

Dad liked to tell the story of the 10-year-old kid who came upon an accident where a semi was stuck under a bridge. The lad quickly solved the problem that had escaped the notice of all the emergency personnel, “Why don’t you let some of the air out of the truck’s tires?” We need that kind of thinking about the Gulf spew. Relative to the “expertise” of academic and medical people working on mental illness, I qualify as a 10-year-old kid. I had learned a thing or two about the scientific method a very long time ago from my father, but my persistence in seeking solutions for the behaviour problems in our family had as much to do with my beliefs. At the cutting edge of rational scientific seeking and of rational religious seeking is the notion of "belief." Building on one's knowledge and the personal testing of that knowledge is work on that frontier: the unknown/Unknown that one is seeking. Daniels' language, which altered in rationality between his two cognitive phases, demonstrated clearly that religious thought is left-brained and is one of the rational means of organizing perceived reality. Everyone who posts to this blog claims to be doing mental work on that frontier but using the metalanguage of their sphere of expertise. For the religious person and for the creative scientist/economist/name-your-expertise specialist seeking comes from a "mind set" or a particular state of cultivated consciousness. The states of consciousness of which the human brain is capable depend on the functional level of the ear as well as on the data (experience) that has been fed into the nervous system that condition its rational and non-rational capabilities. I was more "creative" than my vastly more knowledgable father, which is why I could better visualize the problem he was trying to solve. Today, I would say I had better continuing access BY my left rational brain TO my right holistic brain than he did. His bipolarity prevented consistent integration of his hemispheres. The sort of learning I applied to solving the riddle of our son’s mental illness was hardly more than the parsing of sentences I had learned in grade school, but I had the sort of access to my right brain that allowed me to "keep fluid" in applying that learning to a changing reality. [You may ask how well I did that when my puzzle-solving took a decade!]

When I found the answer, I could prove to a psychiatric specialist that schizophrenia is less what s/he calls "a disease of laterality" than a disease of non-laterality. Dan's hemisphere's traded dominance (to confound laterality) ever two minutes. However, my religious thinking underwent a Gestalt shift, too. Much that I had thought of as "spiritual" I had to recast as neurological (which to my thinking is no less Divine, cosmic, or God-oriented; the greater-than-I concept helps to keep the rational brain open to aspects of reality not yet understood). I drew on my academic language and my trained ability to provide the supportive research to persuade my target audience of facts that are right under their noses every day - and that have been under the collective human nose for ages. I also drew on my capacity to "vision" that gives the brain glimpses of future time, which I had learned in religious contexts. As I now understand the experience of "time" is based in the neurology of the ear, that understanding of "future" probably should be revised, too. (Perhaps Steven Hawking should take cognizance of that aspect of neurology, too, as he assesses time components of formulae.) Now, I am trying to produce simpler versions of my learning to communicate with the parents and children who most need it. In other words, to reach the educated minds for whom I wrote my book I have almost talked myself out of my own usefulness. Does that sound familiar?

May I propose that those contemplating the oil gush seek a paradigm shift like the one I had to make when I discovered something "new" that is fundamental to understanding brain function? I do not have an academic platform, a reputation, or a body of writing apart from my recently self-published book; if I had, I probably couldn’t have made my discoveries! You don't have to read it to judge my observations and arguments on their merits - I have saved you the trouble because my discoveries are here in a nutshell. However, I have shown that psychiatrists do not understand their subjects and that the neurologists with their MRIs and CT scans and PETs and so on are looking in the wrong place for the etiology of mental illness; their scientific papers run along the circular lines of the “informed” but pointless arguing of this blog where the thought swirls around what is already known like eddies in a whirlpool. Experts tend to become mired in their own beliefs about what they think they know. For example, the late Julian Jaynes, a psychologist, and the present Dr. Tim Crow, a noted psychiatrist, both have postulated that schizophrenia is a result of too great communication between the cerebral hemispheres, whereas I have shown that schizophrenic symptoms are the result of such drastically reduced inter-cerebral communication that the schizophrenic is operating much like a dual-brain patient in whom the corpus callosum (the great commisure joining the cerebral hemispheres) has been surgically severed. Mental illness — in fact, all of human behaviour — does not begin in the brain. It begins in the failure - or healthy function - of the smallest muscle in the body, the stapedius muscle, which is located in the middle ear. The ear regulates not only the voice (Tomatis's main claim to fame) but also the system of laterality (which he noticed) that includes left-hemispheric dominance and the efficient integration of the two hemispheres of the brain whose functions become specialized under that organization (my observation). (If anyone else has figured that out, it certainly has not filtered into psychiatric practice; see, for example, jimgottstein@psychrights.org.)

In many if not most cases (based on the clinical experience of Tomatis and Bérard), that right-ear stapedius muscle can be stimulated into normal flexibility through exposure to high frequency sound: violin music works. David’s harp worked sporadically on King Saul’s manic depression, but their political power differential removed Saul from his healing, which would have required a consistency of exposure to musical vibration. I venture to suggest that music (even from the piano) helped Oliver Sack's patients until he destroyed their middle ears with L-dopa. This knowledge has been available in our times since the mid-1950s in France when Dr. Alfred Tomatis did his seminal work, which Dr. Guy Bérard adapted. Their methods have been healing “mental” conditions and enhancing brain function for 60 years among people who know about them and can afford to access them through Tomatis Method and AIT listening centres (I am not associated with either of these businesses, but see, for example, www.thetomatismethod.com and www.georgianainstitute.org and www.drguyberard.com/). I have come up with a cheaper method and the theoretical neurological paradigm Tomatis overlooked while he was preoccupied with consulting psychiatrists. Many people have written about healings in their autistic children using sound stimulation and Bérard's slim book Hearing Equals Behavior includes the healing of suicidal depression among the healings that can be accomplished through sound stimulation. In other words, the solution to mental illness and to enhanced mental function is available but people have turned in the wrong direction for solutions when they have gone to the self-proclaimed experts for help (see, for example, Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic).
I don’t know enough about engineering, geology, and other areas of technical expertise as Dad did to propose the sane, staggeringly simple answer to the Gulf catastrophe. But someone among “the brightest and best” — or their children? — may know the geophysical and technological components of the Gulf situation as I have known behaviour, so that when 12 years ago I stumbled across the Tomatis Method for helping dyslexics I knew I had arrived at the explanation for most behaviour problems. The right kind of music used consistently can heal the ear and the brain, the body to some large extent, behaviour, and therefore relationships. This is relevant to addictions, learning disabilities, mental illness, and the enhanced performance of a normal brain. It is relevant to the investigations of all of the humanities. It is relevant to the social moralities expressed/discussed here.

The solution to the oil gush may be just as simple and within your grasp. Perhaps if those of you who are right-lateralized would tune into some violin concerti of Mozart or Bach or Vivaldi with headphones (the left speaker masked for maximum right-ear stimulation) for an hour or so for a few days you would reach a level of hemispheric integration that would allow you to envision that solution. I do not recommend that left-lateralized people or persons with so-called mental illnesses try this without expert support as, in Dan's words, the results may be "like brain surgery."
Thank you for listening.

I see you finally got on here, welcome.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas,

Fascinating. A microcosmic approach to a macrocosmic problem. We are all taught to look outside for solutions.

1. My beliefs are the same. I've been freaked about no one talking about, much less preparing for the post oil age since about 2000, when I learned that the bell curve was 1995, ( and no I don't count shale and sour oil dregs as fattening up the curve away from diminishing returns. We are talking about a global economy that is dependent of fuel being cheaper to ship goods across oceans then local labor. What astounds is that the more we learn about the crude oil business, the closer to shore those big oil spills and inspection controversy - that people still aren't talking about preparing for the impending post oil age ?!

2. There have been some very good articles about steering our economy and beliefs towards small business — away from the global corporate monopolies that had eaten up competition enough for some to become bigger then many countries' economies. Income inequality has a lot to do with who owns and who loans. If we owned almost zero energy green homes, and businesses. If we had many safer miro-grids, better public transportation ( owned by the public ) then we would be both rebuilding our economy and preparing for the post oil age. Big oil/coal - with all their green advertising – really doesn't want this, because it shifts power and profit back to the people.

3. I see the oil spill in the gulf as a wake up call, a clear smudge in the lines of history that marks the tail end of the oil age. The opportunity is a possible green Renaissance using a combination of new technology, from new sensors and batteries, low energy computers etc.. a global communication network and local businesses using the new technology combined with old craft knowledge of the past, to make better durable goods, grow organic foods and make the cheap plastic economy we take for granted – history.

Heh, I have degrees in philosophy and political science ('70's) so I've seen the clash between the ideal and real forever.
But if this is a canary in the coal mine the proof will be on the coast, after the headlines shift to the next sensation.
The delta, in particular, has been victimized for most of the last century and one only needs to view how the flood of 1927[1] was a wake up gone bad.
A wise but cynical history teacher used to remind me the US decided to save the bison when the numbers dropped from millions to a handful.
Maybe the bigger tragedy is that Gail's questions aren't part of the debate instead of Mr. Obama's emotions or lack of. I'd prefer to see people take a most rigid stand on anything of substance rather than diluting the most complex topics to a person's motive or intent.
After the audience leaves this circus (and they always do) the people on the coast won't remember the good guys from the bad if they only see some bucks thrown at them. They've had plenty of money tossed at them...from the biggest crooks.
They've seen fifty year plans for one hundred years. And their land disappeared. If I see an immediate but incremental step forward, something more than as it was,then I'll believe politics and morality are compatible.
Till then we may have to wait until we're down to the last few bison before that wake up call comes.

[1]
"President Coolidge came down in a railroad train
With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand
The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has
done
To this poor crackers land." - 'Louisiana 1927' Randy Newman

"But if this is a canary in the coal mine the proof will be on the coast, after the headlines shift to the next sensation."

Or will it simply be the next exploitation of a crisis for the furtherance of further retrenchment of political power and control?

"But if this is a canary in the coal mine the proof will be on the coast, after the headlines shift to the next sensation."

Or will it simply be the next exploitation of a crisis for the furtherance of further retrenchment of political power and control?

Well, history suggests the latter. As I wrote earlier, I don't pretend intellectual honesty is easy and accept blaming BP isn't a solution. But if one chooses to minimize this to support bias or prejudice it is probably only a matter of time before someone they don't like will do something they consider evil to a place they hold dear.
Isn't it obvious, terror is in they eye of the beholder? It can be shameful, but fear and dread are at their root subjective.
Their only hope is if there is broader interest that coincides with their best interest. But if the rest of the state, region, country or planet isn't scared, they're screwed.

Resource Substitution

Several views of the near-term future of oil supply and demand suggest intolerable prices leading to severe demand destruction. In that event, what would be the role of resource substitution? Is it possible for technology to salvage industrial society, or would economic chaos destroy us?

One scenario comes from Glen Sweetnam of the US Department of Energy.
http://petrole.blog.lemonde.fr/2010/03/25/washington-considers-a-decline...
In the event of insufficient investment in finding more liquid fuels, he says it’s possible that between 2011 and 2015 a significant energy gap could develop. This scenario shows an “energy gap” in world liquid fuels supply developing quickly after 2011, and the question is whether the “unidentified projects” will materialize to plug the gap.

Similarly, some recent forecasts from the financial sector are for much higher oil prices than at present. Merrill Lynch sees demand rising and supply inelastic, consistent with the resource peak and depletion model. They think that the spare capacity is only in OPEC and they forecast the price band widening from 70 to 85 dollars per barrel now to 50 to 150 dollars per barrel by 2014. Deutsche Bank expects a supply/demand crunch in 2016-17 causing a spike to $179 per barrel. Astonishingly, they expect the economic force of this squeeze will cause permanent demand destruction of oil and propel electrification of surface transport.

Under such circumstances, both economic theory and experience foretell that we must achieve resource substitution via new technology. I advocate that we should set about to make this to happen. That is, we must innovate our way out of potential trouble. The fine metaphor “the arrow of innovation” expresses the intense human urge to innovate. A confluence of many virtues contributes to the innovation process. It takes vision, intellect, leadership, risk, money, and hard work. We’ll need science, engineering, technology, investors, corporations, and wise government policies responsive to a new vision of the future.

For guidance on the substitution process, economist Robert Solow (1974) offered these challenging thoughts.
http://classes.engineering.wustl.edu/ese437/Solow_Resources.pdf
On the one hand, he said that if we can easily substitute other factors for natural resources then we can get along without natural resources, so exhaustion is just an event, not a catastrophe. On the other, catastrophe is unavoidable if no substitute is found. Most interesting of all, he said that in between exhaustion and substitution are cases where the problem is real, interesting, and not foreclosed. So he’s advising us to look at the substitution process in a disciplined way. We need to puzzle out Solow’s uncertain outcomes and focus on the innovation process.

One innovator’s discipline for thinking about clean energy technology is laid out on Vinod Khosla’s website http://khoslaventures.com/khosla/default.html, which provides many idea papers and presentations. He suggests that promising technologies should have a number of attributes: truly renewable (i.e., renewables used sustainably) or inexhaustible, affordable, scalable, profitable, and not energy intensive. On careful examination, many options lack some of these qualities and thus are likely to have limited prospects. He also favors government policies that encourage and assist capitalists as prime actors to move the innovation agenda. This requires a transformational vision of the future among our political leadership and decision-makers. It also implies a risk-support role for government with private people and firms doing the actual work. Khosla says “What is amazing about this is the size of the markets. We are dealing with much harder science and technology, so we will see much higher rate of failure, but the wins will be bigger. More money will be made in cleantech than in traditional areas of Silicon Valley—by far.”

Another stimulating view is this blog by Joseph Romm: http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/breakthrough-technology-illusion-g...
Romm argues that we don’t have time (and don’t need) to wait for breakthrough technologies before transforming the energy system, because it normally takes decades from innovation to first commercialization and then 25 years for commercialization to reach scale. He thinks we will have to rely of existing technologies and take unusual policy steps to speed their deployment. Most importantly, he thinks they will suffice.

Finally, objections to the “technological fix” inevitably arise, to the effect that new technologies will just bring new problems. Well, of course. We’ll just have to address them. A literary allusion may be helpful in understanding this. Bruno Latour, in the February 2005 issue of the now-defunct Domus Magazine, made the point that in Mary Shelly’s 1817 novel, Victor Frankenstein’s real sin was not making the monster but rather his failure to manage it. At the end in the Alps, the creature complains to Frankenstein quite explicitly, “You have abandoned me, that’s why I have become evil.”

...makes one wonder about whether this deregulation really makes sense.

no wonder really...

depends on which side of the deregulations you were on....

if your lost your job... your benefits... your pension... your industry... your 401k... your savings... your healthcare... AND your housing value... (roughly in that order)... you might be more than "wondering"...

however...

if you were on the receiving end of this wealth transfer... you're "wondering"... what can we get our moneygrubbing hands on next...

see social security under attack... the last big motherload of taxpayer funds they're just peeing their pants to get their hands on...

george bush actually put his leg on this 'third rail' in 2005... billionaire pete peterson and tea party adoptee dick armey are working 24/7/365 to see this happen... (google it)...

check out the president's blue ribbon panel due to report on how to cut spending due out this december...

hey... feudalism and debt peonage isn't so bad... is it?

My two cents on Gail's Question #2:

One solution is: Promote frugality as a virtue.

You might read those words, knowing that global economic depression and hardship is the most likely outcome of our current situation, and think that this is a redundant statement and reality is going to take care of all that for you. But I didn’t write “necessity”; I wrote “virtue”.

Others might think it a platitude, but novelty is no measure of truth. Frugality is a virtue. Ben Franklin didn’t invent the concept; he merely passed it on. Frugality has been a refrain in the literary traditions of the world from Confucius to Robert Heinlein, and was preached as a virtue by writers from Cicero to Laura Ingalls Wilder. Frugality is both imminently functional (all that money, time and resources that frugal people save doesn’t just vanish into the void) and immediately practical. What’s more, it is not related to the peak oil debate.

It may seem odd to recommend a solution that can’t be tied back in to the Peak Oil debate while everyone on The Oil Drum is busy complaining that hardly any of the general public know what Peak Oil is, but consider: Hardly any of the general public know what Peak Oil is. When it hits the fan, folks won’t blame something that they don’t even know the name of. They’ll blame governments, oil companies, banks, or whatever else is handy. People have been over the Great Depression of the 20 th century with an archival fine toothed comb, and although historians have a pretty good handle on the initial events, no economist can explain its duration and severity to everyone’s satisfaction even today. (I have heard gardening blamed for the duration of the Great Depression. If that’s not a wild guess, I don’t know what is.)

Don’t get me wrong – no one worth knowing genuinely prefers to live in ignorance, and people have got to know. But it takes time to educate people, and people tend to spend their time on things they care about. We will never succeed in instilling the social behaviors needed in a post Peak Oil economy just by teaching people that Peak Oil exists. The average citizen won’t relate to Peak Oil until it’s a history lesson.

People can still relate to Frugality as a virtue, despite the best efforts of consumerist culture, so that’s what we can teach them the fastest. The virtue of a Virtue lies in its utility, and people need to be taught that they can use Frugality. People need to be reminded that being frugal is more than just saving for hard times. If you apply it right, you don’t need a loan to buy a car. If you apply it enough, you won’t need a mortgage to buy a house. Thrift is the fastest way to conserve resources. Being independently wealthy doesn’t require you to also be a millionaire, and a lot of people can get there sooner than they think – if they would just be frugal.

Of course, the fact that this would also reduce people’s environmental impact and decrease their dependence on resources likely to be constrained in a post Peak Oil economy is just a fortuitous accident.

Frugality as a virtue is not anything new. In fact, what's wrong with all the old virtues? You know... Debt for the aquisition of depreciating thing isn't wise, deep debt is bad (really, it is), removing incentives to work, providing rewards for not working is bad, there's a whole lot of old fashioned wisdom that's just like "frugality" which are good, time-tested qualities and have good results.

Why do we have to pretend that most of them are evil incarnate, but then suddenly find that when we lack them, things fly apart, but yet still deny they have value?

First-time poster, have been reading for the past month or so and want to start with a thank you for all the great information I've gotten here that I could never have gotten any other way. Have been planning to donate, and did today.

Did not plan on commenting, I don't have any brilliant ideas for capping the well, I'm a software engineer and don't have a clue what it would take to stop this thing. But I do feel qualified to comment on political issues and wanted to say a couple of things here in regard to regulation.

Politics is a cesspool and DC is the worst of the worst. If you honestly believe the Federal Government has your best interests at heart, you haven't been paying attention. Everything the Federal Government touches turns to gold for the politicians and their friends and *crap* for the rest of us. We need *LESS* government interference, not more.

For those of you who believe that government is the solution to our problems, I urge you to read a couple of books. The first is "The Road to Serfdom" by F.A. Hayek. The second is "Attention Deficit Democracy" by James Bovard. There are many others as well, those two are both well-written and easy to read.

The 20th century has been called the golden age of central government. Take a good look at how that century fared in the final tally, several hundred million innocent people dead directly at the hands of governments and millions upon millions more in desperate poverty because of central planning.

When it comes to representing the best interests and well-being of the citizens, government is a miserable failure. Every time I hear a politician tell me he's going to "protect" me, I reach back and check for my wallet to make sure it's still there. Giving them more power will be like pouring gasoline on an already-raging fire. Government is morally and intellectually bankrupt, it is NOT the solution to this problem or any other. Please, everyone, think carefully before you call for handing more power to Washington DC. They already have entirely too much.

Careful, this isn't a place that likes "conservatives". We're the devil incarnate, you know. We've single handedly almost destroyed the world, until our weak, impoverished, powerless governemnt has finally been slowly rising up to save the nation and the world.

It cannot be questioned here that government is infallible, and that every problem is traced to a failure of government to fully control it.

It cannot be questioned here that government is infallible, and that every problem is traced to a failure of government to fully control it.

What Churchill said about democracy (...the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.).
He could have ranked business higher than democracy, he did not.
But to claim business does not get most of what it wants doesn't pass the smell test.
In the US a corporation has the rights of a citizen...and I don't know many people who are too big to fail.
OK!?

I'll admit to having no ability to follow your comment. I had a reasonably decent education in English, and the correct use of grammar. Your statement seems to indicate that "business" is a form of government. I just used dictionary.com to look up the word, and that source has 20 definitions of the word "business". 11 are nouns, 3 are adjectives, and 6 are idioms, not one of them is a form of governance. I've read more books than I could ever count, read the World Book encyclopedias from A-Z, nearly cover to cover, and I have NEVER heard of a form of government called "business".

So, whatever you wish to say, or argument you have, please... Don't say it some form of "code words" that don't make sense to me, please.

The more government attempts to manipulate business, the more business is intrenched into the government, and the more the interests of both become of higher value than the supposed "interests of the people".

And, wikipedia is the epitome of pop ignorance... I don't use it.

I'm inclined to agree, except where Wikipedia is concerned, where I'm still kind of sitting on the fence, if maybe with a distinctive lean in its direction. (I've debated this issue before).
For example, I will (and have) suggest(ed) that it has references and bibliography beyond its confines, and add that I think that using it for a term like corporatocracy seems more than fair, seeing as the term's well-referenced elsewhere.

I've seen a lot of pure garbage, as it concerns wikipedia. The staff have been known to edit hundreds of definitions to have political slants, and to deny access to anyone who disagrees.

Which is the whole problem with "open source definitions". They're not definitions at all. It's the equivalent of polling the public each week to determine if 2+2=4, 5, 3, or 7. It masquerades as a "resource", but in reality, it exists as a battleground between multiple factions who seek to redefine history, present events, or terminology, in order to advance their agenda.

Pure objectivity is impossible, none of us are perfectly logical, and have a complete knowledge to enable us to have that fully informed objectivity. But, we CAN try. That should be everyone's goal. But to promote wikipedia as a resource to people who have no experience, who lack that wealth of contextual history, is to surrender them to whatever faction is seeking or winning, at redefining or in selectively accounting whatever is in question is to me an intellectual crime against them.

I think wikipedia is great- the edits are all recorded and there are talk pages that allow all views (even the crazy ones) to be shared.

Are you aware of a site that offers the opportunity for all sides on an issue to incorporate their viewpoints and data?

"...the opportunity for all sides..."

His mind is so open that the wind whistles through it.
—Heywood Hale Broun

The good news about Wikipedia is that most of the articles have lots of references. The bad news is that if you don't know much about a topic, you don't know what you're going to get sometimes.

Unfortunately, "corporatocracy" is one of those politically loaded terms one might find in the typical hysterical fund-raising letter amongst the loaded questions that lead into, "How much are you willing to donate to help us 'solve' the 'problem' we trumped up in our loaded questions?" As with "fascism" in everyday discourse, it often tends to mean merely "something I dislike even if I can't - or won't - articulate why."

At the very minimum, I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to Wikipedia and stop there, when looking up something like that.

"Unfortunately, "corporatocracy" is one of those politically loaded terms one might find in the typical hysterical fund-raising letter amongst the loaded questions that lead into, "How much are you willing to donate to help us 'solve' the 'problem' we trumped up in our loaded questions?" As with "fascism" in everyday discourse, it often tends to mean merely "something I dislike even if I can't - or won't - articulate why.""

It's more of a recently coined perjorative which is intended to imply that a specific political ideology is by nature evil. While I'm quite comfortable with saying that the outcome of many specific political ideologies is evil, simply just saying so and refusing to debate is the equivalent of the sleepwalking Steve Urkel slapping his neighbor repeatedly for no obvious purpose or reason.

I'm not of any mind to think this is some kind of great virtue. Again, all it really does is grant factions of activists the chance to continue to attempt to manipulate the ignorant.

I'll admit to having no ability to follow your comment. I had a reasonably decent education in English, and the correct use of grammar. ... I've read more books than I could ever count, read the World Book encyclopedias from A-Z, nearly cover to cover, and I have NEVER heard of a form of government called "business".

You surrendered to easily. But more than one country blurs if not confuses influence and power between business and government. And you need not study Mexico from 1910-1940 because it's happening now.

You can begin your reading list with 'Russia's Oil Barons and Metal Magnates: Oligarchs and the State in Transition' - Stephen Fortescue
Description:
"Russian politics have been dominated over the last decade by the relationship between the oligarchs and the state. The existing literature is damning of the oligarchs, on two major grounds: they won their wealth and power corruptly, and rapaciously stripped the assets they had so dubiously obtained. This book contains a critical analysis of each of the claims made against them. In doing so it presents a detailed analysis of the place of the oligarchs in the Russian political economy."

Or

Energy Dependency, Politics and Corruption in the Former Soviet Union: Russia's Power, Oligarchs' Profits and Ukraine's Missing Energy Policy, 1995-2006 ... Series on Russian and East European Studies) by Margarita Mercedes Balmaceda

Review
'The author provides an exceptionally detailed documentation of the impact of energy dependency on Ukrainian economic and political development during the Kuchma and early Yushchenko presidencies.]...[Given the central role of energy dependency in post-Soviet politics, the book will be of interest not only to students of Ukrainian and Russian affairs but also of European energy policy at large.' - NATHANIEL TRUMBULL, Europe-Asia Studies, Volume 61, 2009

This is why we need to be a nation of laws and limited government. It's how you prevent the exertion of political will by people/entities who are not representative of the people. When government becomes the consumer of 1/3 of everything produced, it becomes so hungry, that it persues anything to get its hands on more money... thereby corrupting itself.

For those of you think we need a solution... the answer is very simple - restore Constitutional Democracy, by following the strict definitions and limitations of the Constitution itself. And yes, it means ditching every federal social program. And economic 'stimulus' as well.

When politicians take upon themselves the power to direct the economy, then everyone in the economy has an interest in controlling them. It is a reflection of an adage... Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The solution to corruption is to remove power from the hands of government and politicians. Very simple, straightforward, and absolutely gauranteed to work.

I don't think TOD is as closed minded as you seem to think it is.

Normally everyone is friendly even when they dissagree with you. Opinions vary a lot, and sometimes a few posters will get out of hand and turn to nipping and nitpicking and such, but in general the place is a civil group of people who like to chit chat about all sorts of issues.

I can see where the flavor of the place might change with a lot of new posters hitting all at once, but give it a few weeks and you'll see that settle out to a dull thump in the site speeding down the internet highway.

I had some lively discussions a few years ago when I listed that I was running for Prez of the USA, even though several other people were being pushed as better people to run for that office. Namely Alan Drake, aka Alanfromthebigeasy. Lots of water under that bridge though. My party was called the Free Right Now party, check my July 2007 post on my blog for me talking about it.

Anyway, have fun and be gentle to your fellow posters and everything will work out okay around here.

Charles,
BioWebScape designs for a better fed and housed future.
Hugs from Arkansas(50th state in most things, except temp and humidity)

TOD is merely a software defined web site. The nature of those who post, moderate, or whatever, will determine its nature. I see the most rude, profane, and personally offensive insults thrown my way by people who take on a self-righteousness and declare my way of thinking to be sub-human garbage. And, such posts are never deleted, but are applauded without a second thought.

I'm a patient person, in some aspects, and utterly impatient in others. The problem lies in that one side is allowed to promote ideas and insult others with complete abandon... and defending yourself is "trolling", I've seen accusations of it in the archives. This is intellectual failure, if you ask me. I USED to be very much "on the other side" politically. But I've lived well beyond half my life, and I'd like to think I've learned a little from having many, many harsh life experiences. So, I don't have all THAT much patience for people who don't want to think, but just shout down ideas that are not convenient, or contradict their world view in a very explosive collision. I've BEEN there. I USED to think these things, but have moved beyond them. Not because I know everything, but because I've learned through enormously painful experience to broaden my views. I'd prefer to simply debate the merits of ideas and concepts... But there is no discussion worth having with someone who calls you a sexual pervert for disagreeing.

Not because I know everything, but because I've learned through enormously painful experience to broaden my views.

Actually, I find you to be one of the narrowest minded people who have ever posted on this site. As a FORMER conservative and Federalist society member I was able to pigeon hole you on every one of your beliefs after a few of your many posts as a two day member. No variation. Total lockstep with the right wing Republican views. This consistency makes your posts totally unconvincing since they are the squawks of a parrot. This is why I moved away from conservatism, because of it’s dogmatism to an ideology that often did not jive with experience and an inability to be pragmatic as to policy. Ideology, and I mean all ideologies, causes you to see things as you desire them to be, not as they are. This is the most dangerous mindset a human can acquire, and probably the main reason we are in the fix we are in . You claim that this site is left wing. Yes, there are some left wingers here, also conservatives, (and probably anarchists for that matter) but most here have a variety of beliefs and defy categorization.

I’d suggest you visit a site such as FreeRupublic where you would be more comfortable. But then you wouldn’t learn anything new there would you - but that would be okay wouldn’t it?

You said: "Actually, I find you to be one of the narrowest minded people who have ever posted on this site. As a FORMER conservative and Federalist society member I was able to pigeon hole you on every one of your beliefs after a few of your many posts as a two day member."

Since you don't ACTUALLY know me, and since you've not demonstrated you can do anything of the sort that you claim, other than you know that specific things are true and work, but you now disclaim them for some reason, and that conservatives always advocate reality rather than utopian nonsense, why don't you actually try to converse, rather than make some lame personal attacks?

The US government as an institution has made this country the most powerful country in the world, if you haven't noticed. We glory in its Constitution, its checks and balances and its representative democracy(as defined by James Madison Federalist paper#10).

Teabaggers are just a bunch of down-right unpatriotic saps who favor its replacement with Somali style militias while putting the American people into the clutches of amoral profit-mad banks and corporations, who are far more expert at driving americans into serfdom than the diabolically evil federal government who provides home mortgages and student loans to families and social security and medicare to the oldgeezers out there.

People who refer to others as "teabaggers" are definitely sociopaths.

There, throw one insult, one gets thrown back. Useful, huh?

Teabaggers in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, let alone tea bags.
:^D

Congressman Phil Gingery, proud teabagger

If this is the despicable level of your communication, please don't address me again. I am wholly offended by your totally uncivil gutter vocabulary.

At one time the Roman Empire was the strongest, at another point in history it was the British, at another point the U.S. was rivaled by the USSR. I no longer see any of these empires, why do you think it will remain the most powerful? Does it matter if another is more "powerful"? If we were to extrapolate, China would have a larger economy in a few decades. India is expected to surpass the U.S. too. Since power tends to be related to military spending, if these larger economies spent the same percentage on defense spending as the U.S., by nature of being a larger economy they would be more "powerful".

Did you forget your sarcasm winkie? :)

Let's see... how to save ourselves...

Do I have to stick to the bullet points?

The term, "the government" really means the corporate oligarchy. That's not hyperbole, or a cliche; it is reality.

As long as that reality remains, then we are only along for the ride. To understand the nature of the ride, just look at some of the scenery we have passed:

  • A massive and sustained propaganda campaign using a media unwilling to question facts lied at every turn to sell the idea of war in Iraq. We knowingly went in understrength to maximize the use of private contractors in the supplementally funded war. The plan to hire local Iraqis for reconstruction was scrapped as being anti-competitive. The result was a surge in cheap foreign workers streaming into a nation with 65% unemployment, and the results were predictable. Nearly all reconstruction funds were depleted by security costs, and this provided the out needed to receive payment on cost-plus contracts that were never completed.
  • Retroactive immunity was granted to the telcom industry for their participation in wholesale illegal spying on American citizens. Members of congress voted with blank expressions even as their offices were inundated with unprecedented numbers of calls telling them not to do it.
  • Even after General Petraeus admitted Al Quaida was not in Afghanistan, the US escalated our war there. A war that is now seeing DEA agents alongside US troops doing drug interdiction. No self-respecting general would ever field an army overseas to run drug interdiction. It is a very clear sign that something is horribly amiss.
  • Congress was purportedly to have been briefed by Treasurer Hank Paulson behind closed doors, that unless they gave him $2 trillion, martial law would be declared in America. Congress, and armies of lobbyists spend all year fighting to divide the pie, but a poorly written two-page letter by Paulson earned him more money than our bloated military budget. The money was not even used as it was described in the letter. One of his first acts was to hand an average of $20 billion to each large bank during a meeting in which no minutes were kept.
  • Health care. It's killing us.

The corporatist oligarchy simply does not use the same calculus that would be used to better society. Despite what the conservative bench claims, corporations are not people - they are aliens who must always grow larger, or die off. It's not evil, it's alien, and their needs can only be filled by feeding off the public. They are parasites and they have invaded out body politic, our justice system, and are now trying for a Unitary Executive.

So, yeah... peak oil is a problem, but solving it really isn't up to us. We have a different problem to solve first.

First Questions:
1. Can businesses really be expected to regulate themselves, with minimal oversight?
Or, do people need to be controlled? It all depends on what your expectations are about other people. Humans survived as a species for millions of years with no formal set of written laws.

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?
Yes, it can. And it can create all of our problems as well.

3. If there are technological solutions, can they be expected immediately?
Yes. Here is an immediately available technological solution which addresses nearly EVERY problem we face regarding peak oil, climate change, and resource depletion:
http://academicearth.org/courses/death

4. Can we really depend on the oil supply that everyone has told us is available?
There was a time when The Lone Ranger and Tonto were surrounded and outnumbered by Indians (they weren't called Native Americans back then). The Lone Ranger said, "Can we really expect to get out of here alive, Tonto?"

Tonto replied, "What you mean 'we', paleface?"

The point being that maybe who you think "we" is isn't "we".

Second Questions:
1. How have the recent events affected your beliefs?
I am having a lot more fun than I used to, and I waste less energy on hatred and butthurt. My motto is this: Don't get mad, get a bucket of popcorn and watch them fail.

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems?
Yes. "The Brain That Changes Itself", by Dr. Norman Doidge. "Mastery", by George Leonard.

3. What opportunities do you see from the recent events?
Just about all the ones I saw before recent events.

I like your post, a few really good points.

The trick about technology is it could be a bit like gambling- you win some, you lose some, and when you're down and keep doubling your bets eventually you will get to break even.

But there's a fallacy in thinking you might not ever lose so big you can't come back, like someone hitting their loss limit at the casino. I've never been so worried about technology as I currently am with regards to Craig Venter's "synthetic life" project.

On the other hand, when I imagine the risks of much of the work that's gone on at CDC and countless labs under military contract I figure the risk may not be that much higher than before. But then I figure that natural organisms have stood the test of time in terms of not overwhelming everything, including humans- and synthetic ones, not so much.

Your "who you think is "we"" comment reminds me that there were plenty of potatoes during the Irish Potato Famine- the British were eating them.

There are no easy answers but I made some videos showing how people can prepare for Peak Oil to mitigate the negative effects that are coming...the first one is attached here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHmXhgBhtWk

MrEnergyCzar

I believe this is the most important question:

2. Can technology solve our all our problems?

My answer: No. Some of our problems are innate in human nature as produced by natural selection. We've got instincts to breed and consume that will end up putting us back up against Malthusian limits sooner or later. Robin Hanson points out that our descendants will run up against the limit of the number of atoms in the galaxy.

The only way technology could solve all of our problems would be if we used genetic technology to reengineer human nature to put dampers on our desires to consume and reproduce. But I'm skeptical that will ever happen.

In the short run (the next 20 years) I expect Peak Oil will cause a world economic depression. We'll still have an industrialized civilization in the more developed countries. But living standards will go down substantially.

The rate of growth of the population on earth is slowing. Eventually there will be no growth, and in fact, may decrease. this, long before any doomsday vision comes to pass.

1. How have the recent events affected my beliefs?

I had to re-evaluate my long standing position on limited regulations. In principle, I believe that people should have the right to do whatever they want provided in doing so, they don't interfer with other people's right to do the same. This does not mean that a person can yell fire in a crowed theater because in doing so, they invoke the response of the fire department to a useless cause which thereby increases the risk of damages to others in the comunity should an actual fire event take place.

After listening to people complain about this accident being a result of not enough regulations, I decided to browse through Title 30 subparts 200-299 MMS section. I found out that the MMS regulations are quite onerous, requiring plans,conduct of operations and quality assurance hold points for verification. That they are somewhat similar to the nuclear regulations and plenty. All good if you consider that the government is responsible for protecting peoples rights to a clean environment which are placed in danger due to the amount of risk created by drilling in the deep. I have learned that this is a risky business. The government request that all drilling plans be based on a Probabilistic Risk Assessment and an Environmental Impact Report. This requires a plan that must be followed. It's an agreement that ensures to the government that such risks will be limited and any events (Well Kick) will be mitigated by effective components such as the BOP.

After reading the article on this site about What Caused the Deep Water Horizon Accident, it became clear to me that short cuts were made and that their may have been a lax in the safety culture by BP. There may also have been some incompetence on the part of the MMS who may have approved changes to the drilling plan. Last year I heard Congress challenging the oil industry to use it or lose it, and during such time the economy was and is on a downward spiral. It seems we love to step on the neck of the oil industry but also love the oil that they produce. We need to stop the love hate relationship with oil and deal with it for what it is and that is a bunch of hard working professionals risking their lives for profit to get the oil that we ordered to the market. After we understand this, then we can agree to address the root cause of our demand for oil.

Do we need more regulations? Maybe but first we need to find the root cause of this disaster and then go back and find out how it can be prevented.

2. Are there ways we can gradually shift beliefs toward some more helpful belief systems? Income Inequality?
I think if you consider income inequality then you have to include entitlements and taxes. Let's just cut through the economics of income inequality and offset the income tax with a 5 dollar a gallon tax on gasoline.

"After reading the article on this site about What Caused the Deep Water Horizon Accident, it became clear to me that short cuts were made and that their may have been a lax in the safety culture by BP. There may also have been some incompetence on the part of the MMS who may have approved changes to the drilling plan. Last year I heard Congress challenging the oil industry to use it or lose it, and during such time the economy was and is on a downward spiral. It seems we love to step on the neck of the oil industry but also love the oil that they produce. We need to stop the love hate relationship with oil and deal with it for what it is and that is a bunch of hard working professionals risking their lives for profit to get the oil that we ordered to the market. After we understand this, then we can agree to address the root cause of our demand for oil."

Ohh, heresy!!! /sarcasm

I've never seen a set of safety or procedure regulations that wasn't so extensive NOBODY could learn it, know it, and obey it all. Kind of like the tax code. Impossible to comply with, not even the IRS knows what you're supposed to do.

Adding more words on paper is not going to address the human factor here. Instead, individuals need to operate in an air of accountability. It's like why we have sunshine laws for governemnt - when it operates in secret, it gets crooked and corrupt real fast, but when everything is in the open, it's far more likely to be... clean. No, I'm not saying that operators of drill rigs need webcams, that's not the point, what they do need is to know that certain levels of incompetence, or poor judgement, can result in harm large enough to be considered criminal.

And for pity's sakes, open up the cleanup process to anyone who wants to try something. We got millions without a job, Congress spending trillions uselessly, why not empower anyone who can credibly argue they have something to try... to do so and profit from success (but not failure)?