ASPO-USA Conference, Second Day, After Lunch

This is a continuation of a series of reports on the ASPO Conference on Peak Oil that was held in Washington DC this week. I had covered the first 24 hours in three earlier posts, and return to the meeting at the luncheon on the second day of the meeting.

At the beginning of the lunch the Association presented the M. King Hubbert Awards for excellence in energy education. These, deservedly, went to Colin Campbell, Tom Whipple and Art Berman. They were followed by the Tom Whipple Volunteer Awards, which went to Lt. Col. Davis, Greg Geyer, and Mary Block.

The first speaker was Jeff Rubin who pointed out that although the deepest recession since the second world war has been blamed on the housing bubble and the financial problems of the American banking system, the problem was really global in nature, and it is not difficult to show the correlation with energy prices.

Historically economists have always said that when prices go up, then more oil will be released to the market, meeting demand (or substitutes will be found), and the price will fall. This time they were wrong. There was no Alaska or North Sea to provide that additional source, only tar sands. With prices escalating, oil demand declined in only the USA, Canada and Europe, which group has historically bought most of the international trade, but which now only consume half of it. That group has not dropped demand, it is just that others are now gaining in consumption (China is now at 9 mbd). OPEC now consumes some 14 mbd, and this is largely because fuel is so cheap in those countries (at around $0.20 a gallon). The OPEC internal consumption (as the Export Land Model predicts) is used at the cost of supplies to the export market.

Oil prices and demand fell during the recession, but are now growing again, as we return to $80 a barrel. As a result he is anticipating triple-digit oil prices again next year. For as demand rises, the world is no more capable of balancing supply and demand than it was two years ago. He mentioned the conundrum that since price controls supply growth, the Government cannot bring back cheap oil, and the balance between affordable general yet sufficient supply and the price of that supply is becoming a more difficult balance to sustain.

The rise in fuel costs will change the paradigm for manufacturing. For while it is cheaper to makes steel in China and ship it when transport costs are low, as those prices rise the cost of shipping will become too high. The benefits of local manufacture will become more evident. These economics will kill the suburbs. That will not be controlled by Government fiat, but rather the principles defined in Econ 101.

As the high-prices bring our entry into the Apocalypse it will not, at least initially , be that grim. The price changes will force change and this may help local manufacturing. So we may be moving to a better world, at least transiently.

The second speaker was Bianca Jagger who might, at first, appear to be a strange choice for the conference. However, as she explained, she has been following the topic for many years and initially had just planned on attending the conference, until asked to speak. She spoke of the need for a new Copernican Revolution in the use of renewable technologies. With no treaty in Copenhagen there is less than a decade before we will see dramatic changes in climate, due to greenhouse gas effects. Further the dependence on oil, and our need to get it from deeper waters and arctic regions threatens even more devastation for future generations.

The interactions of 9 billion people with the environment by 2050 will also impose increasing demands on the energy infrastructure, and have their impacts, some of which we have seen this year already in countries such as Pakistan and Russia. We must hold companies responsible for their damage, and she expressed concerns over the tar sand mining in Alberta.

She noted how the subject of Peak Oil had been considered a myth, but that the JOE Report showed that it was not, and she cited other reports that concurred. With the peak arrival we need the President to waken us from our current sleepwalking into disaster. We must democratize and decentralize energy production and if the Federal Government does not do this, then states and local government must act. We cannot compartmentalize the effort as the effects will impact us all, and we must make the investments to replace fossil fuels.

In the following question period the speakers pointed out that we should not expect the Administration to move until the point is reached where we really won’t have many choices left. But we have a greater capacity for change than the government gives us credit for. The problem is that with only 4 mbd of spare capacity, which may come at an increasing price, the balance between stability and recession will be small. We are, perhaps, at the bounds of affordable oil.

The worse the price rise, then the worse off the poorer segments of the community become, but it will become a zero sum game as oil production is bounded. It can be resolved by price – more bicycles are used in Copenhagen, for example, because cars have a 180% surcharge, and power is used economically because it costs $0.30 a kWh.

I chaired the coal session immediately after lunch, and briefly referred to my experience in hand-mining coal in a seam about 20 inches high, and the difficulties King Edward I had in banning the burning of coal. I then introduced Kjell Aleklett who paid tribute to Matt Simmons, and talked of the formation of ASPO – in which Matt played a part, before turning to the topic of coal supply prediction. In the IPCC reports there is an anticipation of coal use rising by 500% by 2100. But his group have been studying the likelihood of this happening and have written several peer-reviewed papers on the topic. (For example Dr Michael Hook nailed his dissertation on the topic to the wall last month, an Uppsala tradition.) He noted that there is a difference in the relative ranking of the world's largest coal reserve holders and those that mine and export the most coal. China, for example, has 14% of the world’s reserves and yet mines 45% of the world’s coal. (These may be a little off due to my slow transcription of his table). There are only 10 nations that can be considered, as exporters, the “drug dealers” of the planet.

Global production is dominated by the big 6 (USA, China, FSU, Australia, India, and S. Africa) but the world is changing and increasing competition and regulation is changing the use and availability of coal. It is a fuel where there is no correlation between price and reserves, but we are now seeing a decline in coal quality to the point that we are at a peak in the energy level that can be produced from American coal. There are small changes that can occur (it is possible for Pennsylvanian Anthracite, which has peaked, to recover) depending on price but in general this is true. American hopes lie in the reserves of states like Montana, but local opposition, due to the sodium content of the water, makes this mining unlikely.

He then looked at production from the other large producers, and stated conclusions on their future performance, leading to the overall conclusion that coal will peak globally in 2030. He was not favorably impressed by the chances for coal-to-liquid (CTL) plants, and they may only possibly play a part in the future. None of the IPCC models consider peak oil, gas or coal, yet we cannot assume a business as usual (BAU) future, as fossil fuels run out. Concerns at the moment in Sweden are more related to politics than geology. And while coal will remain important, it will not be an answer to the energy challenge.

In questions, one of the audience from Montana challenged the assumption that coal is unpopular in the state, and noted that it is likely that there will be considerable coal production in the future. Dr. Aleklett also noted that coal production is limited logistically and by infrastructure, rather than resource. And coal does not contribute to solving the liquid fuels problem.

David Rutledge discussed coal production in terms of the IPCC report, noting that the 2007 report showed oil production rising to 2100 in all 19 models that they ran in predicting future trends. His goal became one of reducing uncertainty in the predictions, and he began by explaining some of the statistical methods he used. He exemplified this by showing that UK coal production peaked in 1913, and is now down to what it was in Napoleonic times. Using statistical methods he was able to predict the likely total UK coal production over time, at around 27 billion tons. Future reserve estimates collapsed in the 1960-70 period as evaluators realized that reserves could only be coal that could be economically mined.

He looked at four regions, UK coal, Pennsylvania anthracite, France and Belgium, and Japan and South Korea. In all cases he found that mining will only extract about 25% of what was once considered a reserve. He tried to look at Chinese coal but had problems getting reliable statistics. While he was able to get good agreements between his plots and predictions and historic numbers his results were incompatible with IPCC coal presumptions.

Coal does not have the global fungibility that oil has and is more of a regional market commodity. He used Tom Wigley’s MAGICC computer model, but in trying to evaluate future temperatures he noted that, as a result of the Climategate incident, that the British Met Office are redoing their temperature records. He discussed some of the problems in assuring accurate temperature records. But overall he was confident of the IPCC predictions and those on the future rise in sea level, quoting Stefan Ramstorf.

Following a break, Dr Robert Hirsch chaired a session on the link between Energy and the Economy, and it was possibly the bleakest of the meeting. Chris Martenson talked about looking at the economy as a straight highway, and then hitting a bend. While models often see progress in linear terms life does not turn out that way. Money is loaned into existence and credit (and thus debt) has increased over time. Since 1970 it has doubled five times. Money and energy have been tied, but while money must continue to grow, energy cannot. Credit market growth (with an R^2 of 0.98) has an exponential relationship with time. He sees the problem not with the individual smaller bubble causes of housing, etc but rather the overall credit size itself.

He sees the problems coming in the 2014-2015 time frame when Peak Oil will be recognized and while growth may continue, prosperity may not.

He was followed by Nicole Foss- who many of us have read under the pen name Stoneleigh. She sees fossil fuels as generating the largest bubble in history. The economy has been driven up by energy, but as that declines what will take its place? In the sense that bubbles are Ponzi schemes where only early investors make a return on their investment, as this one comes to an end as the largest suckers get fleeced, so they collapse to general hurt.

Markets are driven by perception rather than reality. But by the time the general public hears of “a good thing” it is generally over. Hearing the “it’s a new paradigm” should warn you to sell the stock. But the world is driven on emotion. And when there is a collapse it is often sudden, bringing the value down below what it was before the bubble began. (And oil prices are following this model.) From this she could see nothing ahead but progress into a deflation and depression. We are already in a large debt and liquidity trap and as credit disappears the depression will develop and be sustained. The huge derivatives market may be the first to go, given its insignificant intrinsic value.

The problem is in part that it will be based on reducing volumes of oil, and with that reduction there is no possibility of a rebound, since the resource is not there to develop it. Oil has thus hegemonic power. The depression will, however, sustain its dominance since reduced demand will allow it to remain dominant.

The final speaker of the evening was Robert Hirsch, who has also recently co-authored a book – The Impending World Energy Mess which was available in signed copy at the meeting. In large measure his talk followed the book (from which you may gather that I did buy, and have half-read, a copy – and it is worth doing so, I may do a review later). He noted that the economy depends on energy, not the other way around. Further we should expect that the general public will still be surprised when oil supplies start to decline in the next 2 – 5 years. From then they will continue to decline for at least a decade, until alternate sources of fuel become sufficiently available. He covered the oil problem, including their forecast of how it will develop, and what an individual could do about it.

The story is a familiar one to the peak oil community: we are over reliant on a few giant oil fields that are depleting and not being replaced. We have been sensibly in a production plateau since 2005, something not predicted by earlier models, but there are an increasing number of reputable sources that see an end to the plateau, and the consequent decline, coming relatively soon. This will impact GDP and hurt national economies. The recent recession and drop in oil demand may have only shifted the onset of the decline by a few weeks.

It is unrealistic to expect a rapid answer to the decline from politicians. Looking at the likely rate of decline, a 2% fall could be easily handled, a 4% fall could be handled with difficulty, but at 6% it is going to be bad. They have had to guess, and think, at the moment that it will likely be at around 4%.

China, having foreseen this problem, are doing smart things to prepare for it. We in the West are not. It will lead to increased tensions – though they did not look at the potential for resource wars, or the likelihood that producers would withhold production for political or economic reasons.

Looking at individual response, we should all expect to be impacted, and because of the lack of political ability to resolve the issue (or even to address it yet) we should expect that the result will be very similar to the oil shortages of the 70s. There was a degree of panic – this will happen again. This time, however, there will be no North Sea or North Slope to come to the rescue. Nor can the oil taps be opened wider to remediate the problems. As a result he has got out of the market – since good stocks and bonds will be hurt as well as bad. He has added annuities to his portfolio, bought some gold, and moved closer to mass transit and the shops.

He reminded us that this is a liquid fuels problem, while most renewables (wind and solar and hydro) deal with the electricity supply, which is not helpful to the crisis. We also have enough food. The issue is in transportation where we need a substitute for oil.

In questions he was asked about rationing. He fully anticipates it happening, but it will be very complicated to develop and impose. Countries will respond in different ways and become more independent. The United States will have to reindustrialize, since it will not be able to rely on foreign manufacture. We increased productivity by having oil help labor. Now this must reverse.

He did not see the problem being deflation, but rather in the control of inflation. But then it is easier to write a history book than a forecast. He could only see that many people will get hurt in the coming years.

On which cheery note I went to find a drink, have dinner and retire for the evening. More later.

Thanks Dave, for the huge amount of work you put into taking notes and putting these summaries together.

I might just add a bit regarding Robert Hirsch's talk. As you noted, he indicated that in his personal portfolio, he has in recent years sold stocks and bonds, and bought annuities and gold. In the question and answer period that followed, I pointed out that insurance companies are simply going to invest annuity money in stocks and bonds, so annuities aren't any safer than the stocks and bonds themselves. Also, unless the federal government does another bailout, insurance companies are only protected by "post insolvency assessment funds". These funds assess the solvent insurers to pay for claims of insolvent insurers, but they do not cover all insurance products (I doubt that variable annuities would be covered), and they depend on other insurance companies being in good enough shape to pay for the losses of an occasional failing company.

Robert Hirsch thought he could sell his annuity quickly, if he saw a problem. I am not sure how this would be different from individual stocks and bonds, though.

Here is Hirsch's talk (MP3). It starts quiet, and is hard to follow in some parts because he was moving away from the microphone a lot.

Your analysis of the nature of the annuity investment makes perfect sense;when and if tshtf in another big step down, anniuties will be as worthless as the stocks and bonds underlying them on the larger scale.

Perhaps a shrewd observer of the market can sell an annuity quickly if he forsees the need, but just exactly what is he going to get in exchange for it?

The short obvious answer is cash-but since the whole economic house of cards is tumbling down in such a scenario,the holder of cash might be only one step ahead of the devil, so to speak.Cash cannnot be exchanged for things that don't physically exist, and the quantity of it can be increased by simply printing it, when the situation becomes desperate enough.Inflation will eventually rule.

On the other hand, the possibility of holding substantial physical assetts such as ownership of a productive farm seems as if it might also become impossible due to ever rising taxes on such assetts as other revenue sources dry up.

If our society survives as such, it may devolve to such a point that most income and consumption will be based on simple survival parameters and provided for on a communistic or socialistic basis.

At that point, staying one step ahead of the devil would mean obtaining and holding onto a position , however humble, in the political power structure.

In the old USSR,wealth was measured by connections in the power structure-you could expect to get your kids into a university and a govt office and a good apartment if you were a successful bueracrat.

I am not predicting that such a scenario will come to pass here, or anywhere else in particular.But it would be better in many respects than absolute mayhem and anarchy-which seem to be real possibilities .

I think we are already seeing that the best way forward in the good ole USofA is thru connections to the power structure. Have you seen banker and CEO incomes while the middle class fades away? ;>O

Jjhman,

Your point is indeed a telling one.

Now the question in my mind is this:

Will the system eventually stabilize with the bankers still in a position of power and influence-meaning the CURRENT CROP of bankers operating under the current system of organization;

or

Will things get so bad we get a whole new power structure? There will still be banks of some sort if that happens, but the power would then reside in the hands of politicians of whatever sort are in control of the country.

Decisions will be made by govt bueracrats who own the bankers in this scenario, rather than the other way around.

I agree with your analysis on this Gail. Annuities are most like bonds in a portfolio and there is absolutely no reason to think that one could unload them faster than selling bonds themselves. In fact, one would expect it would take longer to cash out of an annuity.

Hi Catman,

...one could unload them faster than selling....

If there is a high potential for needing to "unload" equities sometime in the not-to-distance future, then the most rational thing would be to "sell short" right now when the market is enjoying a fairly bullish trend. One could, for example, short the S&P directly or use put options for more leverage.

This could be the real test of your convictions if you feel that the US economy will experience significant decline over the next few years. Huge fortunes were made in both the tech bubble collapse earlier in this century or the housing/financial collapse in the past couple of years - just go short and worry later if your boatloads of cash are really useful.

It's a classic question, isn't it?

If there are a lot of people who can predict what the economy and stock market can do (much better than the conventional wisdom), why aren't they rich?

You are right to equate the behavior of annuities and stocks. Just look what happened, say in March 2009. All went down dramatically. And what does Hirsch's "some gold" mean? $20k or $50k? That is burned off quickly. Investing massively (say 300k) in gold may also be dangerous since gold could also lose because people do not have the money to support the price by investing in bad times. Rather, investors would sell to get cash that, in turn, also drives down the price.

That raises an interesting question I have about gold. Let's say you have a million dollars worth of gold when tshtf. How do you "have" it? Ingots? Certificates? Coins? Gold mining stock. How do you turn a Kruugerand into a loaf of bread, and what do you accept as change on your $3000 coin? But maybe a loaf of bread will be worth one Kruugerand then. You can bet your gold mining stock will be good for just about nothing.

Equally disconcerting, how to do you pack around $1 million in gold. At a current price of $1,300/ounce that's 769 ounces, or 48 lbs. Not a huge load, but guaranteed to slow you down while trying to run from bandits trying to take your gold. Or, an animal chasing you for food - how much is it worth now? I can see why paper money got popular in less secure environments.

To reinforce your question, how liquid is gold? I guess one method is a job in a gold mine. We're working in one now in BC. Boy, are they antsy to get into production with the current price.

how liquid is gold?

Well if it's liquid it's probably too hot to handle >;^)

This is why I think silver will be a common modicum of exchange. Various sized coins can serve like $5s, $10s, and $20s. Gold will be used for major purchases, like a hay baler, or a concubine or something.

;->

Don't forget those timber stands of embedded energy!

This is good thinking.

In a pinch, a Concubine can do a combine's job.

But try to get a combine to do a concubine's job, and you will end up in a pinch!

very pedantic quibble:

769 troy ounces = ~52.73 pounds avoirdupois

might be the ounces that broke the camel's back :->

Dear Gail, Dave and TOD -

The service you provide the energy community is absolutely amazing. Thank you again.

A single camera feed of Jeff Rubin's full lunch keynote is on the aspo-usa home page ( http://www.aspousa.org/ ).

For ASPO-USA

Best,

- Greg

Note that:

a 2% fall could be easily handled,

does not include the interplay between the financial system and the energy system. Though a 2% decline might be handled by the energy system (at least for the first few years), the financial system will not react well at all. For instance, asset prices will continue to decline pushing the banks further into insolvency. Stock markets will eventually adjust to a declining fuel base and all stocks will be repriced, possibly in a big crash.

I think it's fair to say that the financial system cannot handle any amount of sustained decline without severe dislocations occurring, much less 2% for 50 years.

Also, in a Q&A period I asked Dr. Hirsch if he could comment on the 1 to 1 decline rate between the economy and oil production he determined in one of his papers. I mentioned that with the debt the world has it seemed to me that 5 to 1 or even 10 to 1 was more likely. He responded that when modeling eventually one gets to the point where the result is largely dependent on the assumptions. The implication was that his assumptions didn't get him there but others could have.

Hello all, it was a pleasure to meet many of you at the ASPO conference.

Regarding the relationship between oil declines and economic performance, I would be *most* surprised if the relationship proved to be 1:1 on the downslope.

The economy is a complex adaptive system and, as such, is going to prove to be quite unpredictable in its behaviors when starved for growth.

As the Bundswehr (German military) report on Peak Oil said:

"A shrinking economy over an indeterminate period presents a highly unstable situation which inevitably leads to system collapse. (...)

"The risks to security posed by such a development cannot even be estimated."

[quotes drawn from ASPO presentation by Rick Munroe]

In my mind there is really no doubt that under a sustained regime of energy deprivation the current economic system will collapse and a new and smaller (and simpler) one will take its place. That's just the nature of complex systems.

Until and unless either the second law gets revoked or it is discovered that Granite can be powdered into a high energy fuel source (just kidding, of course - I mean that a new energy bonanza would have to be discovered) our job is manage the outcomes as best we can.

[I wonder what the alcohol bill was for the ASPO crowd...probably pretty high given the state of things...]

In my mind there is really no doubt that under a sustained regime of energy deprivation the current economic system will collapse and a new and smaller (and simpler) one will take its place. That's just the nature of complex systems.

I have a hunch that there are going to be more and more collapses of the sort that recently happened in Hungary and though I can't prove my hunch I think it has a lot to do with economic collapse. I was just in Hungary recently and saw a lot of things that have me worried, there were quite a few canaries that were already lying around dead in the coal mine.

Yet the Hungarian Finance Ministry is predicting a solid 3% growth for 2011, after consistent negative numbers over the last few years.

This IMHO is what some of our economic collapse is going to look like and there simply won't be sufficient funds to clean up all the messes coming down the pipeline.

May all your rafts be toxic waste proof...

Along those lines I thought that both the devastation of Katrina and the Gulf oil spill were symptoms of collapse. Both in terms of the event and of the response.

Yes, I think the same, especially the response.

Until and unless ... it is discovered that Granite can be powdered into a high energy fuel source...

Well, you might be surprised. According to this USGS publication, granite has a typical Uranium concentration of 5-10 ppm, which compares against coal fly ash of 10-30ppm.

Lets take the 5ppm number. That means 1 tonne of granite will contain roughly 5g of U238. Each gram (4.20 x 10^-3 mol), if fissioned in a fast-spectrum reactor (e.g. the IFR), would release (8.11 x 10^+10) J. This is calculated from the fact 1 fission releases on average 200MeV of energy, which translates into (3.20 x 10^-11) J per atom, hence (1.93 x 10^+13) J/mol. Therefore, 1 tonne of granite will contain the fission-energy potential of (4.06 x 10^+11)J.

In comparison, 1 tonne of anthracite coal has an energy content of roughly 30 MJ / kg.

Thus 1 tonne of your average granite has the same energy potential as approx. 13 tonnes of coal.

Granite also contains Thorium, another fertile element which can be bred sustainably to the fissionable isotope U233. From here, you can see that some granites have thorium in concentrations of the order of 1%, i.e. 10,000ppm! Energy content of 1 tonne of granite via this route would be equivalent to 27,000 tons of coal.

Th232 -> U233 and U238->Pu239 breeding cycles have been proven and demonstrated over past DECADES. Folks, we do not have an approaching energy crisis. We have a crisis of narrow thinking and defeatist attitudes. An aggressive move into new nuclear technologies can provide sustainable energy for basically forever when the raw material could be GRANITE worth many, many times its weight in coal.

Correction: ~1% Th figure was for allanite, closely associated with granites. The typical Th/U concentration ratio in granites can be 3-10 times... still, an astounding figure nevertheless for gross energy potential. So, 1 tonne of granite -> roughly 100 tonnes of coal if via Thorium.

This is garbage isn't it Steve?
U238 doesn't fission
You would need to extract the 5g Uranium from your tonne of granite, then separate out the 0.036g of U235 that you want.
It might contain the energy of a bucket of coal but you will expend more than that getting it out.
Otherwise, erm, wouldn't someone have done it already?

Uh, sorry, no this is not garbage.

You'll notice I mentioned IFR / fast spectrum reactor. That operates on a U238->Pu cycle with no pure Pu separation anywhere in the cycle. The point is that by going to closed fuel cycles based on fertile -> fissile conversion, the resources available are, for all practical purposes, limitless.

I brought up this limit case to show what the potential of nuclear power in the extreme: in the limit you could profitably extract energy from most average pieces of the earth's crust. That highlights the point that nuclear fission can be, for all practical purposes, sustainable *forever*, contrary to the doomer nonsense I see over and over again. However, this is not advocating extracting uranium in 5ppm rock. There's centuries worth of U238 already in inventory around the world already. Its just to underscore my point that nuclear fission is expandable and sustainable for whatever reasonable scale you care to imagine.

Now, as to the misinformation I've seen about breeding can't work (anticipating the next criticism by some people here). Rubbish. EBR-I in the 1950s PROVED positive breeding. The Russians have been operating a fast spectrum, liquid metal cooled reactor for, oh, about the past 30 years. It is old established nuclear science, nothing new here. In fact positive breeding isn't even really necessary. A breeding ratio of 1 will do quite nicely. Start with U235 kindling, then run the fire forever on U238->Pu cycles. No sci-fi / Mr. Fusion required.

Why hasn't someone done it already? Easy. They don't have to because U235 is cheap and abundant enough to run on path-dependent technology (the path was cast by Admiral Rickover and the nuclear U.S. Navy and its preferred LWR designs). My point is the technology EXISTS, it has been PROVEN and the science says it can be scalable and sustainable FOREVER with appropriate engineering. So, there are no intrinsic limits like fossil fuels. The problem is an engineering one: developing commercialized and practical off-the-shelf systems that are cheap enough, flexible enough, safe enough to allow nuclear heat to run our economy on a sustainable / scalable basis from syn-fuel / ammonia manufacture, district heating, desalination to basic electricity generation etc.

Why AREN'T we moving on it now? My guess is politics (e.g. Clinton cancelling the IFR as it was ready for prime time on proliferation concerns even though the whole point of the design was to make it safe in that regard. Besides, what are the proliferation problems for U.S. deployment - a rationalized crock of a reason for killing it). Fossil fuels are a trillion-dollar enterprise. One nuclear reactor can take out $1-2 million / day in natural gas demand. If they were deployed by the hundreds, it would slaughter Exxon and others that derive A LOT of revenue from gas. I humbly suggest the answers lie with some of the 10,000 lobbyists in Washington.

I put these screeds up occasionally because we seem so wrapped up in doomerish fantasy and refuse to get behind and push for the only (IMHO) sustainable solution that is scalable to power a planet of 9B people. The science is there. Its known. Its proven. Its low environmental / zero emissions profile is vital. My hope is to get people to THINK about YES WE CAN actually do something rather that sit and cry about our impending doom. Please, politically, we need to push new nuclear into the foreground as a national priority. NOW. The lobbyists representing Exxon sure won't do it for us.

One nuclear reactor can take out $1-2 million / day in natural gas demand. If they were deployed by the hundreds, it would slaughter Exxon and others that derive A LOT of revenue from gas

The flaw with this 'solution', is that there are no Nuclear cars, trucks or trains.

Nuclear can displace Coal, but Coal is not the most pressing problem.

There are Vehicles that can run on Gas derivatives (CNG/LPG), which can ramp in volumes faster than EVs & the Grid.

So I'd see the short term movement to Gas, with Coal being retired less quickly than some had hoped, and then longer term, a move to EV's, certainly for personal transportation. The key thing is to have control over the shape of the tail.
Nuclear can help with Grid, long term, but Wind and Solar PV can ramp faster.

Renewables have added many more GW, than Nuclear has in the West, in the last 5 years.

Coal is not the most pressing problem.

Personally, I think AGW is a bigger problem than PO. OTOH, if coal consumption was clearly being dramatically reduced by wind, nuclear, solar, etc, it would be easier politically to use CTL (China, of course, isn't highly concerned about CO2, so they're the one country really pushing CTL).

I'd see the short term movement to Gas

That makes sense, and yet the US seems pretty resistant to NG vehicles. Any thoughts as to why?

The flaw with this 'solution', is that there are no Nuclear cars, trucks or trains.

I agree fully. We must change the paradigm from personal automobiles and far-flung suburbs to increased density with transit-oriented-development serviced by rail, from light urban to inter-continental freight, fully electrified. For everything else that can't be electrified, remaining fossil fuels will probably do for a long time.

This. will. not. be. an. easy. process.

All I'm saying, is that we have to transition to toward something that has the potential to be scalable, dispatchable, low-cost and sustainable with the lowest possible life-cycle environmental impact. And that would be the next generation of innovative nuclear power with closed fuel cycles and scalable designs from modules that can crank out 10MW of high-grade heat, to monsters than can generate 1000s of MW of heat to supply a continental grid.

Nuclear heat can be used for thermochemical production of hydrogen. That will be critical feedstock for thermochemical catalytic conversion of CO2 to DME or methanol, which itself can be converted to synthetic gasoline. Aircraft and other vehicles that cannot be nuclear powered via electricity, still can have a future. Nuclear hydrogen can also be used in the manufacture of ammonia... Nuclear technology gives us a reasonable, scientifically sound vision of HOPE for the future, even if it promises to be a rocky path along the way. Why not work towards the light rather than collapse into darkness?

We must change the paradigm from personal automobiles and far-flung suburbs to increased density with transit-oriented-development serviced by rail

Electric is good. Rail is good, but for passenger transportation EVs and EREVs are much faster and cheaper.

thermochemical catalytic conversion of CO2 to DME or methanol, which itself can be converted to synthetic gasoline.

That would be good. I'm curious - have you seen any analyses of cost and efficiency of conversion?

Ahh, that magic elixir tastes so good. Now we have infinite energy!

Where is the science wrong on this?????

This is not akin to belief in magic fairies. This is not religion, as is the cult of doom I see. This is established scientific fact. Many are conditioned to believe that nuclear power is evil and should be dispensed with forthwith when in fact it holds the keys to the future of humanity by providing the energy 9B people will need without destroying the environment.

Show me where the science will not support this? You can point to many problems based on economics driven by politics, but... where is it not possible by scientific and engineering argument? You CANT because breeding, closed fuel cycles, lower cost approaches have been researched, documented, and prototypes proven in DECADES past. We, as humanity, have so far CHOSEN to not implement on a wide scale as we have believed to date that the fossil fuel paradigm should reign instead. That is about to change.

It will take 40 years or more for a complete switch-out of fossil fuels. I like Alan F.B.E.'s prescription and belief we electrify rail, conserve, and start building the nukes we got as best we can ASAP. But, we must start establishing the *framework* in which this transition can occur with innovative designs to power the more distant future TODAY. I want my children and their children to live in a world of energy plenty, without environmental catastrophe. That can only happen if we pull out all the stops, and get serious about a new generation of nuclear power to save the world.

It's magic because none of this has been proven in a commercial situation and at the scale required. It will continue to degrade our own habitat (which is also the habitat of others) and will continue to attempt to increase complexity in a society that is already topped out in complexity and is entering the collapse phase. It assumes that all of the resources and societal stability needed to make it a reality are a given. And it completely ignores all other limits other than energy.

You treatise is written in absolute terms as though everything you wrote is a certainty. And the well used cop out that it hasn't been done because it doesn't need to be done thus confirming that, as a future energy source, it is less useful and less efficient than what we have now, even if it were possible.

It is a magic elixir that doesn't exist. We can't sustain the unsustainable by any means. We have to change utterly, not just change our energy source, even if that were possible.

When you think of what fission can do it is akin to magic: 1 tonne of fissionable material is equivalent to MILLIONS of tones of coal, and 12MILLION tons of CO2 and sundry toxic emissions... PREVENTED. It is magic, in a sense.

I have the certainty in my belief that a positive vision is required, one of hope, to inspire us to reach toward a positive future, one of energy abundance and consequent economic security. With abundant energy, many of the other limits can be fixed. What if we had the energy resources to fully recycle everything, including CO2 <-> liquid fuels, to desalinate water on huge scales, etc.?

I am certain of the benefits of energy abundance for all humanity. I am certain that resource security helps stabilize population growth and reduces perceived need for war. I am certain that we need a coherent, scientifically sound plan to deal with the crisis over the short, medium and long terms. I am certain that nuclear fission can release 50,000,000 times more energy than the same number of carbon atoms can in combustion. I am certain that this can be done with acceptable safety. I am certain that society cannot depend exclusively on energy that isn't dispatchable and on-demand. I'm not going to heat my house in January with solar energy, now am I? Nor with wind power when we have a continental high settle in for several days shutting down winds in 1/2 of the continent? Industry cannot stop when the sun goes in or the wind stops. That is fundamental. Energy is far more valuable when you can command it, on demand, when you NEED it. Dispatchable, high-grade heat we derive from fossil fuels CANNOT be replaced by wind or solar across the board. It is a mirage - a "false fire brigade."

Is it a cop-out to suggest massive-scale commercialization of nuclear, especially more complex closed fuel cycles and applications for heat beyond electricity, hasn't been done yet because fossil fuels were cheaper and easier to exploit (***excluding externalities*** of cost, of course)? No, that is plain business logic given the politico-economic environment of recent decades. I fail to see how that is a cop-out argument and proof of anything, other than simple observation of fact that energy suppliers and their political partners saw fossil fuels as being cheaper, easier, better way to build wealth. We are seeing the folly of those decisions now, and this is time to change course.

There are countless ways to point to how POLITICAL factors have screwed nuclear power developments, DELIBERATELY, including by vested interests threatened by it, over the years. Those have been societal CHOICES. Ones that need to be revisited.

Nuclear power has been providing 50% of my electricity for many years. Emissions free. Cheap. Safely. This is not a mirage. We need to do a lot more, and do it a lot better (i.e. sustainably, cheaper, faster to roll out). Different socio-political decisions must be made now.

A systemic cultural / attitudinal change is required in how the human race interacts with its environment. We HAVE to change, and I fear that will only come after the shitstorm that is about to hit has woken us up to the need for radical social-political-economic change, not just slogans and tinkering around the margins. I feel the next shoe is about to drop re Wall St. fraud and malfeasance... October is a dangerous month for the markets-shudder-.

Nevertheless, there IS a way out of this trap based on the millions-to-one energy density advantage of nuclear fission and an inexhaustible fuel supply with breeding / closed cycles. One based on established science and proven engineering. It is sitting there, waiting for us to get serious about it if we so chose, that's all I'm sayin'. If we don't I believe it will be a mistake of incalculable proportions as we move into the decades post peak toward energy / resource poverty and the resulting chaos. I see this as a MORAL imperative to get on with next generation nuclear build, across the board, as we change our lifestyles, how our civilization relates to the planet and how we relate to each other.

You might think I'm a little less of a raving lunatic after digesting the voluminous erudite material at www.bravenewclimate.com and / or after reading Gwynneth Craven's book (Power to Save the World). Be prepared to unlearn much of what you thought was true. Much of what we have been told about nuclear power "just ain't so". Also, given Ted Rockwell's blog a look (he was the technical director for the original development of the nuclear U.S. Navy).

"Many of the other limits can be fixed".

There are limits. There are limits to fixing limits. But it only takes one limit to be breached, if civilization depends on not reaching that limit, for collapse to ensue. Of course "abundant" energy can push out limits, to a degree but then we would just be delaying the inevitable, though it might be some other generation's problem (but I doubt it).

Nuclear may be all the things you say it is but it certainly won't be both safe and cheap, because, with abundant fossil fuels for so long, we would already be relying mainly on nuclear. But, in many ways, that isn't the point.

You can't heat your house in January with solar? That doesn't mean that you HAVE to do it some other way. Other options exist. Perhaps relocating. Perhaps super insulating your home. Perhaps remodelling to take full advantage of what sun there is. Your position seems to be that we have to try everything we can to keep civilization going exactly as it is now. That just isn't possible (or soon won't be). We're hitting all sorts of limits and technology can't change the laws of nature.

I don't think you're a raving loony; I think you are determined to find a solution to our predicament but predicaments don't have solutions.

If one assumes for the moment that energy is not a limit: what do you think would be the most important limit?

It doesn't really matter. If our civilisation depends on something that is in short supply (i.e. that cannot meet the necessary demand) or if we go beyond some safe limit in our natural systems, then our civilisation will, at best, contract or, at worst, collapse.

So I won't be drawn on any particular limit, whether it is a resource limit or an environmental limit. Our societies will become untenable if any limit is breached and can't be mitigated without a societal change, in some way.

However, energy certainly is limited (in practical terms, for humans on earth who wish to retain a habitable planet), so the question becomes moot.

It doesn't really matter....So I won't be drawn on any particular limit

Of course it matters: I haven't seen clear evidence for such a limit, which is why I ask. I'd say AGW is our biggest environmental risk, but I wouldn't describe that as a resource limit. Describing AGW as a problem related to saturation of CO2 sink capacity is like taking a sledgehammer to the walls of one's house, and describing that as a "limited sledgehammer absorption capability".

energy certainly is limited

Again, I disagree. Wind power is low-CO2, cheap, high E-ROI, scalable, etc, etc. Nuclear and solar are also workable, so we have a diversity of choices.

I think we face a number of soft limits, that we should take treat with importance. I think we're paying a number of costs for our over-reliance on fossil fuels in general, and oil in particular. I think we should move away from FF/oil ASAP. But, I don't see a hard limit at which point we'll suffer catastrophic consequences, with the possible exception of AGW.

What evidence would you like to see? I pointed to a scientific study about breaching limits on critical systems. We've breached several already and are closing in on others. But it only takes one breach, if it is a critical system. How long can we cover those breaches? Not for ever, that's certain.

But your question was about the most important limit (apart from energy), not about whether we were close to breaching any important limit. There are plenty of figures on topsoil loss, on agricultural runoff and algal blooms, on fresh water problems, on safe CO2 concentrations, on climate shifts, on the extinction rate, on oceans dying. Apart from that, almost every resource that we deem essential for our current high tech society is well seen to have limits that could be breached in decades (New Scientist ran an article on this a couple of years ago).

That energy is limited is surely indisputable and yet you dispute it. Wind power is very limited and is not impact free. But even if it was abundant (and could be harnessed as abundant) it would still be limited. Nuclear is limited and not without adverse impacts. Solar is limited and is currently all used by our various natural energy systems. Yes, there is some diversity but surely you don't expect those alternative forms of energy to replace fossil fuels at their current scale and growth rate? If so, for how long? There are limits to everything. And these are hard limits imposed by nature, they are not soft limits that can be circumvented with wishful thinking.

You acknowledge that AGW is a real serious problem but appear to support business as usual. Fossil fuels are the major cause of greenhouse gases but other human behaviour (in destroying habitats, oceans and forests) also have an impact. So there are real environmental limits even if you believe in infinite resources. If you don't believe in infinite resources then you believe in limits and so any of the critical resources or systems that we rely on must have limits. And that was my point.

What evidence would you like to see? I pointed to a scientific study about breaching limits on critical systems. We've breached several already and are closing in on others. But it only takes one breach, if it is a critical system. How long can we cover those breaches? Not for ever, that's certain.

I haven't had the time to do a lot of research, but it seems clear that AGW and related changes (e.g., ocean acidification) are serious problems.

OTOH, 1) we have a lot of uncertainty about the behavior of these things; 2) these are soft limits: there won't be a defining moment; 3) these are all forms of pollution, not resource consumption: they're not essential to economic growth; and 4) I think it's excessive to say that any or all of these will necessarily cause TEOTWAWKI - there are large risks (which call for immediate action), but we just don't know.

almost every resource that we deem essential for our current high tech society is well seen to have limits that could be breached in decades

I'd disagree with that - of course, that's a long discussion.

That energy is limited is surely indisputable and yet you dispute it.

Well, sure, there are limits, but they're far higher than any likely level of human consumption. Wind power can provide 5x-10x as much power as needed - solar can provide about 20,000x as much.

Wind power is very limited and is not impact free.

That's highly unrealistic. Wind's only significant challenge is intermittency, and there are a lot of effective ways of dealing with that.

Nuclear is limited and not without adverse impacts.

Nuclear's not really limited, although I agree that there are adverse impacts (especially weapons proliferation) - I'm not so enthusiastic about nuclear.

Solar is limited and is currently all used by our various natural energy systems.

You're thinking of biofuels. We could power our society with PV and CSP quite nicely.

You acknowledge that AGW is a real serious problem but appear to support business as usual.

No, I think we need to deal with habitat destruction and AGW. OTOH, we can reduce our land consumption and CO2 emissions and still have a prosperous society. It won't exactly be BAU, but it will work well.

Again, pollution problems aren't exactly limits. For instance, if I wear hobnail boots on my wood floor, the wood floor's life will be very limited, and wood flooring won't be sustainable (it will wear out too quickly to replace economically). If I wear soft slippers, it will become sustainable. If I'm used to wearing boots inside, then slippers are a big change from BAU. OTOH, I think slippers are a great lifestyle, and there's no sacrifice to changing to them.

The economy is a subset of the environment, not the other way around so of course environmental degradation will impact the economy and, according to Lord Stern, in the UK, it already is impacting the economy. And there may be hard limits that, if breached, will lead to rapid deterioration at some later point.

Our climate, even the relatively stable one we had prior to our pollution, has wind as part of it; the pattern of air movements are part of the environment we've evolved to live with. Sunlight provides the energy not just for life but for almost all natural systems on our planet. Of course, it may be possible to extract some of the energy, or to capture additional energy from the sun, without having an adverse impact on our environment but we don't know what that amount is. So, it is not valid to simply dismiss the impacts on the basis of there being a lot of energy in sunshine or in wind. I've never seen a comprehensive study on environmental impacts of renewable energy but we have a history of ignoring limits until it's too late.

Your example of wooden flooring is hardly appropriate, as an analogue for our planet and our lifestyles. However, your floor won't be sustainable because it will wear and deteriorate, in any case but it's not just a question of one aspect being sustainable; our whole lifestyles need to be sustainable.

The economy is a subset of the environment, not the other way around so of course environmental degradation will impact the economy

Sure. We need to figure out how much. The more important point: pollution is a side effect - it's not a necessary part of a prosperous society. We can reduce or eliminate CO2 emissions, and nitrogen pollution in the ocean.

there may be hard limits that, if breached, will lead to rapid deterioration at some later point.

Sure - we don't know what risks we're taking.

, it is not valid to simply dismiss the impacts on the basis of there being a lot of energy in sunshine or in wind.

For wind, I can imagine environmental impacts, however slight they would likely be compare to FFs. OTOH, capturing solar power can obviously be made zero-impact: just adjust the overall albedo of human activity to be neutral. If, for instance, we place CSP in the desert, we may absorb a little more sunlight: that will create a little more heat than an undisturbed desert. So, we place a few mirrors nearby. Similarly, PV panels on rooftops just have to have the same albedo as non-PV roofs. This is really not hard stuff.

our whole lifestyles need to be sustainable.

Sure - that was just a metaphor for how much we can reduce our evironmental impact, if we choose, and how low-cost that reduction can actually be. Heck, many industrial pollution-reduction projects actually turn out to save money, because they reduce input waste.

"I wonder what the alcohol bill was for the ASPO crowd...probably pretty high given the state of things..."

....but likely not as high as the next one (if anyone can afford to go) :-/

And in BTU terms its was certainly less than all of the energy expended on travel.

Though a 2% decline might be handled by the energy system (at least for the first few years), the financial system will not react well at all. For instance, asset prices will continue to decline pushing the banks further into insolvency. Stock markets will eventually adjust to a declining fuel base and all stocks will be repriced, possibly in a big crash.

Someone recently posted a power point created by Steven Chu before he became Energy secretary in which it is crystal clear that he understands the consequences of Peak Oil on the US economy, so one can pretty much safely assume that he has discussed this with President Obama and the rest of the current administration.

Yet the best they can come up with is this?!

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/10/11/2301450/obama-renews-push-for-50-bi...

WASHINGTON | With the weak economy driving voter discontent three weeks out from congressional and state elections, President Barack Obama on Monday renewed his call to spend $50 billion on improving the nation’s transportation infrastructure.

His plan calls for rebuilding 150,000 miles of roads — “enough to circle the world six times” — laying and maintaining 4,000 miles of railways, restoring 150 miles of airport runways and advancing a new air-traffic-control system.

Obama said that America’s crumbling infrastructure weakened our economy and left the nation trailing foreign competitors in investment, including China, Russia and Europe. By embarking soon on the infrastructure buildup, he said, “we will create good, middle-class jobs right now.”

What a load of hot steaming crap! How long before reality becomes so obvious that they will no longer be able to hide the truth? I will vote for the first politician who openly states that this paradigm can no longer continue but I will no longer support anyone from either of the two mainstream political parties. Those 150,000 miles of roads are going to require a lot of tar, perhaps we could add some feathers and give all these politicians what they really deserve...

How about a link to this chu powerpoint?

Here is a link to Chu's powerpoints (See pages 15 & 16).
http://www.lbl.gov/solar/ipfiles/plenary/chu_Solar_to_Chem_Energy_3-28-0...

And here is a link to an MP3 of the speech:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/podcasts/nobel/steven_chu-050721.mp3

Chu knows PO. He won't talk about publicly for all the reasons you probably know already. But he understands PO and he has been doing many things to deal with it.

And I'm very happy that he just announced the symbolic move of returning solar panels to the Whitehouse. Both PV and hot water ones this time. Chu is a star in the administration, IMHO.

Hi Speculawyer,

re: "Chu knows PO. He won't talk about publicly for all the reasons you probably know already. But he understands PO and he has been doing many things to deal with it."

IMVHO, the only worthy stance is one honesty and openness in the face of a catastrophe of this magnitude. Is true in general, in other words, and even more so with "petroleum plummet."

It is speculation to assume Secretary Chu knows and does not talk because he wishes to remain somehow "inside" *and* - (here's the speculation)- do good.

His first priority should be to understand the truth and to speak it.

To know and not to share is more than disingenuous. This is appalling, because it does a disservice to those who do not know.

Anyway, I'm not so sure what Chu understands, scientifically speaking. Dave Cohen critiqued his views here:
http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/03/steven-chus-energy-miscalculati...

I'd sure like Secretary Chu to clue in to ASPO.

Well what can I say. I don't know what is going on in his mind. All I can judge from is the evidence available. And those slides show that he knows about Peak Oil. And his actions as DoE show that he firmly backs alternative energy and electric vehicles. The two are related.

And I'll take that over someone that speaks out but never gets into a position of power to do something. There are plenty of other people to do the job of speaking out about Peak oil. People like us. :-)

Hi speculawyer

Thanks for your response.

I cited the article by Dave Cohen because it, along with several others of his, go into some detail, covering Chu's presentations and statements, and analyzing them.

I highly recommend them.

I can't do justice to the articles, here is just a quote:

"DOE’s spending priorities should come as no surprise to you now that you understand where Obama and Dr. Chu stand. They assume we have anywhere from 20 to 80 years to solve the liquid fuels problem as appropriate efficiency measures are put in place over time."

re: "And those slides show that he knows about Peak Oil. And his actions as DoE show that he firmly backs alternative energy and electric vehicles. The two are related."

If Chu knows and actually understands, then he must realize we are facing the kind of perils Hirsch, for example, covered in his talk.

And not simply perils, but reality: BAU cannot continue. Will not continue. Employment that depends on oil in any fashion will vanish as oil declines. And so forth.

The "alternative energy" and "electric vehicles" you mention - without a plan that takes into account the "plummet" and it's irreversibility, we will end up with EVs that cannot be used and windmills that cannot be maintained. And so forth.

re: "And I'll take that over someone that speaks out but never gets into a position of power to do something."

If only it were true that remaining silent necessarily allows one to get into power and then do something *appropriate*, *good*, *true* and *workable*.

Chu may be deliberately silent, in which case he is misleading the public, along with his equally silent and censored (self-censored?) colleagues.

Or, he may not understand.

In either case, he does not engage in open conversation about his assumptions, nor is he allowing himself to have his premises questioned and debated.

Without an open revelation about what that basis actually is - how do you know the "EVs" and "alternative energy" will address the problem that actually exists?

Well that article is one man's opinions on Chu's actions. And your posts are your opinion and my posts are my opinion. And even when different people all agree that peak oil is an issue that doesn't mean we all agree about the severity of the problem and how it should be addressed. Looking at the 'peak oil primer' list over in the left column of this site, you'll see it lists different sites at Defcon 5 to Defcon 1 levels. You seem to be a Defcon 1 or 2. I think Chu and I are more Defcon 4 or 5 people.

Peak oil is the peak of production . . . it is not running out of oil. There is still plenty of oil left and we will continue using it for my lifetime. Peak is just going to cause prices to shoot up in order to ration out the oil to those that can pay for it. So the market will adjust. People will fly less, we will buy small high-mileage cars, we will use public transportation more, etc. I don't subscribe to the apocalyptic scenarios that many doomers seem to believe. Nasty economic recession/depression . . . I can see that (and perhaps we are experiencing it right now). But I don't foresee rioting, food supply collapse, etc.

Gasoline is less than $3/gallon in the USA and if we hit an oil crunch, it could go up to $7/gallon or so. Well it is *already* around $7/gallon in the UK and much of Europe. But I don't see them cannibalizing each other. We'll just have to adjust.

"Peak oil is the peak of production . . . it is not running out of oil. There is still plenty of oil left and we will continue using it for my lifetime."

Plenty: A full or completely adequate amount or supply

No, there will not be plenty of oil, post peak or even post plateau. I am constantly amazed that this sort of phrasing is used on this sort of forum.

$7/gallon may not be the end of the world but you forget that the high price would be the result of scarcity. Europe can get all the petrol they want, at $7/gallon but when fuel is $7/gallon in the US, it's pretty likely that Americans will not be able to get all the fuel that they would like. It's a double whammy, high prices and shortages.

Yes, people's opinions are just their opinions but this is clearly a finite planet. And we clearly have an economic system that requires growth. It will not get growth (except in short bursts on a declining trend) in the future. How that plays out no-one knows but it is unlikely to be pretty, for anyone.

Europe can get all the petrol they want, at $7/gallon but when fuel is $7/gallon in the US, it's pretty likely that Americans will not be able to get all the fuel that they would like. It's a double whammy, high prices and shortages.

Actually, it's the reverse. When net oil exports decline, Europe will be hit harder, because they have no domestic oil production. The US could run on it's domestic production.

And if gasoline and oil fuels were taxed today, to make them $7, we would probably be within continental production (US +canada+Mexico) already. Then a scarcity elsewhere is everyone else's problem.

Europe has it bad two ways - not only do they produce hardly any of their own oil, most (not all) of their low hanging oil conservation fruit has been been picked, and they have far less scope to produce alternatives, be it ethanol or CTL/GTL

Then a scarcity elsewhere is everyone else's problem.

That's the nice picture of the future: "your problem is not my problem."

...most (not all) of their low hanging oil conservation fruit has been been picked,

No, too many people living far from their work. Much more people could take the bike,train,etc.

Han, "your problem is not my problem" is a fundamental approach to many things, like it or not.
Quite simply, if the US does not need to be in the world oil trade (i.e. is self sufficient), then indeed a scarcity for other places is their problem. The US is self sufficient in food - scracity in AFrica is their problem. I think you;ll find most countries would like to be self sufficient in essential things as food and water - many aren't but they wish they were - no different with oil.

No, too many people living far from their work. Much more people could take the bike,train,etc.

Well, that is true, but they already have many more people taking the train/bus/bike than here. You can increase ridership/reduce drivership more, but it gets progressively harder to do. London put in the congestion charge - we haven't had to do that here yet.

Cities like Moscow and Tokyo have the highest train ridership in the world, places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam have amongst the highest rates for cycling. The only claims any American cities can make is for the highest rates of driving, and fuel used per capita (typically 2-3x more).

So I think my statement that they low hanging fruit has been picked in Europe holds true. You might argue that some if it was never even there, given the way Euro cities have developed over centuries/millennia (dense cities designed primarily for walking) they have never reached the car use levels of US cities.

Still more that they can do, but with per capita oil use at half here, halving it again definitely gets harder. For us to halve it all we have to do is get to their level, today, and they have shown that can be done. Getting to half their level, for a modern, large, country, has not yet been done, but it it is going to have to be done sooner or later.
I would rather jump than wait to be pushed on that.

The US, Canada and Mexico will never be self-sufficient in oil, unless they reduce their consumption and continue to reduce it every year. That's a fantasy scenario without major mindset and societal changes.

See my comment just below.

And, most of continental Europe doesn't have especially good wind or solar resource, at least when compared with the Americas and Africa.

Of course, Europe would have more than enough wind resource if they were willing to build them wherever necessary, regardless of whose view was blocked...

Maybe, but that really wasn't my point. You talked of getting by on high oil prices, Nick, without acknowledging that the high prices that you mentioned will be caused by real shortages. The US could certainly run a third of its economy on domestic production but do you expect your society to hold together with only a third of the oil?

First, the US only imports 50% of it's fossil fuel liquid fuels these days.

2nd, yes, the whole US economy could run on that 50%: freight could go from trucks to diesel rail, and then from diesel rail to electric rail. Personal transportation can go from SUVs to ICE small cars, from ICE small cars to hybrids, from hybrids to EREVs, from EREVs to EVs. That's 2/3 of US oil consumption from those 2 sectors alone.

See http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-everything-be-electrified.html

Sorry, you're right. In terms of all liquids, the US imports 50% of its oil needs. But 50% of the economy is not 100%.

If all of the changes required to run on 50% of current oil are made, would that qualify as "the world as we know it"? How long would those changes take? At that point (20 years?), how much oil would the US need to import? Can the economy grow at that point? If so, how? What infrastructure changes are needed for the moves you envisage? Are they happening now, in any meaningful way? If not, are we looking at those changes being 20 years away or 100 years away, or more?

As far as I can tell, it's a pipedream to think of attaining energy independence without a comprehensive change across the whole economy and society. Economic growth would be gone. Prosperity would have to come in non-economic ways. This is most certainly the end of the world as we know it, even if it's not the end of the world.

I glanced at your blog and I think it is hugely optimistic, firstly about the necessary actions being taken at all and in a timely manner, secondly about the rate and quantity of resources needed for the transition. It's a bit like my belief that 7 billion people could live sustainably on this planet - I've argued with people about that but, at the same time, have no expectation that the necessary global cooperation and actions needed will be undertaken, that is, it's a pipedream.

If all of the changes required to run on 50% of current oil are made, would that qualify as "the world as we know it"?

No. I've never argued that we should keep FF BAU. We should move away from it ASAP.

How long would those changes take?

20 years would be a reasonable estimate.

At that point (20 years?), how much oil would the US need to import?

US oil production is likely to stay flat or grow slightly, so reducing oil consumption by 50% would eliminate imports.

Can the economy grow at that point?

Sure.

If so, how?

By using electricity. Manufacturing, for instance, uses very little oil directly. Freight could go by electric rail.

What infrastructure changes are needed for the moves you envisage?

Ramping up EREV/EV production, moving to from trucks to rail (doubletracking freight rail, mostly), electrifying rail.

Are they happening now, in any meaningful way?

Sure. Trucking is moving to rail. The Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt are now in production, with every car maker bringing out EVs of some sort in the next several years. I think you're greatly over-estiminating the resources needed for these things: it's not a big deal. Actually, over their whole lifecycle, they will save money over current FF technology.

Hi speculawyer,

Thank you for your continued response.

re: "Well that article is one man's opinions on Chu's actions."

Dave's article discusses facts.

I posted the citation in order to further a fact-based discussion.

I find that you do not reply to the facts or topics in the article.

re: "You seem to be a Defcon 1 or 2."

I find the use of labels like this to be a diversion and not productive to a discussion of the topic at hand.

The topic here, as I see it, is the ethical and scientific responsibility and integrity of the position of Energy Secretary.

re: "Peak is just going to cause prices to shoot up in order to ration out the oil to those that can pay for it."

What we have seen historically is a price "shoot up," followed by recession.

Then, the price is lower, however, there is more unemployment and less overall economic activity.

So, it doesn't seem to me that you're describing something that conforms to what's already occurred, that we can look to, nor do you give any reason why the prices would remain high.

High prices cause businesses to fail, and other activities that rely on oil (maintaining roads, etc) to have to cut back the use of oil and/or the activity.

Also,

re: "... ration out the oil to those that can pay for it."

And who is in the category of those who can pay?

City and State governments? Municipal water districts? Who can pay?

re: "I don't foresee rioting, food supply collapse, etc"

I did not mention anything about these topics.

You are ignoring what they have already done. The Stimulus package had a stealth peak oil program. Grants & loans to EV manufactures, smart grid companies, EV component manufactures, wind power, energy efficiency upgrades, Li-Ion battery makers, etc.

No, it was not some massive all-out campaign. But it certainly was the biggest program ever to address various peak oil issues. I think they went out a limb with a lot of those investments. They may be too early. And many of them will never provide a return on investment.

But if a significant peak oil related crunch hits, there will be alternative electric energy transport options from GM, Nissan, Fisker, Think, Enerdel, A123, Ford, Tesla, etc. Yes, they will be expensive up front . . . but at least an alternative option will be available.

"But, if a significant peak oil crunch hits, There will be alternative electric energy transport options from GM, Nissan..."

I would think the major alternative would be NG.

Well, Honda does offer a NG Civic. I'm not exactly sure why there is so little interest in NG autos. It might actually be a very good path for the next 20 to 30 years or so. NG is cheap right now. Just put one of those Phil stations in your garage, fill up your NG car at home, and you are good to go.

I guess the electricity infrastructure is better than the NG infrastructure. Even though it may just be 110V, you can pretty much find an electrical outlet everywhere.

I have a Honda GX (NG) car. It's a great car with the exception that I can't go anywhere but local with it. If they put stations along the interstates I think they would sell A LOT of them. My city has quite a few stations making it convienent to refuel, but many cities only have one or two stations if any at all. No stations, no sales. The Phil stations are north of $5000.00 + installation (which is another chunk of change) and if you average that over the life of the vehicle, that is quite a premium to the savings you get.

What happens to all of the other industries/processes that rely on NG as transportation demand rises and prices go up? No gain without pain.

My intuition tells me we have gone beyond the point of incremental change. Maybe after the big reset we'll claw our way back to a more workable energy meme, but the changes you guys are advocating are truly massive if they are to have any meaningful effect.

If a peak oil crunch hits? We're there, and fewer folks every day can afford your alternatives; corporations to develop them or consumers to buy them. Debt rules now.

Get thy frog ass out of the pot.....

Ribbit!

Meh. We are around $3/gallon gas. That is annoying and some poor people are really hurting. But I still see the roads choked with cars. We saw $4/gallon gas and that indeed did suck. But we scraped by.

However, when we start seeing $5 to $10 per gallon, the picture really starts changing. Those annoying 100 mile ranges won't seem so bad if they can get you to work & back home. Yeah, the up-front costs are high. But people can lease.

And the Fed is handing out nearly free money, so take out another loan. Loans can be good & bad. Sure, no one wants more debt, especially right now. But if your choice is between no job or a job but a loan on an EV to get you to your job, you are better off with the latter.

And the fact that all that electricity is domestic will help the economy a bit.

"But I still see the roads choked with cars."

I watched a good friend jog up my road, same as he did every morning for years, two days before he died of cancer. Pure inertia.

...."that's why I love Mankind"

Ouch! What a terrible story.

Yes, it is inertia. But the fact that it is still happening tells you that it can still happen.

A story of triumph. You could see it in his face.

My house was at the top of a big hill.

a 2% fall could be easily handled,

If one takes Jeff Rubin's point that the current crisis was associated with the state of the oil market, and the point that we have been on a plateau since about 2005, then it would appear that the world can't even handle 3 years (2005 - 8) of a 0% fall.

What would have been the situation if there had been a 5.whatever fall?

Peter.

Peter - Picking up on your point: GDP the last 5 years. I got a little frustrated with all the emphasis on changes in GDP and not the absolute value. Wasn't difficult to find the data base.

(http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/result.php.)

Goes a long way to explaining why even with the current "growth" in GDP isn't creating such happy times for many folks. A great link. Gives decades of various GDP values: nominal, real, per capita, etc. A big bonus: you can chart with a click. Virtually every metric shows a potential plateau in GDP starting as early as 2005 and as late as 2007. Granted the data really only shows the possible start of a plateau...the future remains to be seen. But more significantly all the metrics show a fairly constant climb until the mid 2000's. And then it appears we've entered a very new world in terms of absolute GDP. So what if GDP showed an X% increase last quarter. The GDP last quarter is still little changed for the most part in absolute value from where it was 3 to 5 years ago. The change in the trend in not the least bit subtle.

I'm very curious to see how the more economic savvy TODers view these numbers. Perhaps just a coincidence that this possible new trend starts at about the same time as some folks feel the possible PO effects are starting to manifest themselves. Perhaps not.

Thank you ROCKMAN!

This is an absolutely fantastic site for data junkies like me.

Jon

Jon - Anxious to see your take on the numbers. I expected something subtle and thus very interpretive. Even though it will take a few years to prove if we've reached Peak GDP or not, the break in trend appears obvious. Of course, if the economy does have a strong recovery (as in low unemployment and not just arbitrary % jump in GDP) then we could be back to BAU with our ever expanding economy. But that's the real question, isn't it? Is BAU really over or are we just in a nasty valley ready to climb back out?

On the Robert Hirsch talk
Quote: "This time, however, there will be no North Sea or North Slope to come to the rescue. Nor can the oil taps be opened wider to remediate the problems."

As with all other speakers no one addressed the Iraq claim that production will be increased to 12 Million b/d in 7 years sand its new resource upgrade that sparked a resource upgrade by Iran to keep its third rank. If all these claims are true then theoretically that would be a kind of rescue.

As with all other speakers no one addressed the Iraq claim that production will be increased to 12 Million b/d in 7 years sand its new resource upgrade that sparked a resource upgrade by Iran to keep its third rank. If all these claims are true then theoretically that would be a kind of rescue.

An interesting premise, that countries that choose to increase their resources can do so. I suppose that it is certainly true that they can claim that their resources (and reserves) have increased.

Regarding the lack of interest in "Iraq to the rescue," I suppose that there are two answers: (1) Most of the speakers are skeptical of the claimed magnitude of the future production and (2) Large additional reserves often don't do a lot to postpone a production peak, e.g., in 1956 Hubbert concluded that a one-third increase in projected URR for the US Lower 48 only postponed the projected peak by five years, from 1966 to 1971.

WT - to your point. Just look at the oil consumption growth rate and you can easily estimate how long it would take to reach a new peak production date assuming even twice the URR amount. It is just one more doubling period.

The story is a familiar one to the peak oil community: we are over reliant on a few giant oil fields that are depleting and not being replaced. We have been sensibly in a production plateau since 2005, something not predicted by earlier models

Let's not be hasty. As has been noted here many times before, the Hubbert analysis is largely an exercise in curve fitting. Even with a 10 year plateau between 2005 - 2015 it is looking increasingly likely the future exercises in curve fitting will place a distinct peak in world production, well, right about now.

Even an oil bonanza from an ice-free arctic would not be likely to change that, a scenario eerily similar to the American experience where billions of barrels from Barrow, AK did little to reverse the overall declines of older fields in the lower 48.

Cheers,
Jerry

Dear Gail Tverberg, Chris Martenson, Fred Magyar, Old Farmer Mac and Friends,

We are fiddlin' while the Earth begins to burn, are we not?

Your words remind me to mention a quote of Oliver Cromwell, which I would like to direct to the ideologically-driven talking heads, opinion makers, thought leaders and spin doctors in the mass media: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Every time friends like you have shown me a new example of what our finest ancestors could see that would be occurring in our time, I am reminded of the remarkable number of splendid people throughout our history who raised their voices loudly… who tried to let us know as you do now. Of course, as great human beings with feet of clay have known all too well, the powers that be, aka the self-proclaimed masters of the universe today, would complete the work of the greedy kings who came before them. Ancient kings (named by Ozymandias) have set the stage for the final act in a play presented by ideological idiots, unless, of course, we choose a different way f i n a l l y - - - b e f o r e i t i s t o o l a t e.

Sincerely,

Steve

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001
http://sustainabilityscience.org/content.html?contentid=1176
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/
http://www.panearth.org/

The only oil depletion model that has been able to predict a plateau is the oil shock model.

I called it back then "The Overshoot Point" or TOP.
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2005/12/top-overshoot-point.html

So, based on your model, the chances of a 4% decline on the backside of the curve is fantasy?

The longer the plateau the steeper the decline; that's predicted by the model and a consequence of a simple conservation of material argument. I suppose there are ways to get a 4% decline that someone might not consider; say a one-time suppressive shock or correction hits and then 4% is easier to sustain, since the decline as defined is a proportional draw-down.

I remember that post well. I was particularly inspired by your analysis, at the time, as I had recently finished reading Tainter's "Collapse of Complex Societies" and Catton's "Overshoot". They had much the same thing to say, albeit in an entirely different context.

Something along the lines of: "Try as you might, all efforts to sustain the unsustainable will only make matters worse".

When we reach TOP, I will be the first to let you know.

Well, OK, if no one else will ask then I will. After all, it fairly begs the question:

Are we there yet?

Cheers,
Jerry

I believe we have reached TOP as clearly we are on a plateau.

So what's the best guess for an average global decline rate and when do you expect that to start showing up?

We are getting closer to talking about the "mother" of human-induced global challenges.

It appears to me that people are beginning to get used to discussing the overpopulation of Earth, despite the formidable and conspicuous resistance of such discussions. For a moment imagine that human overpopulation of the living Earth is like a live human organism having lung cancer. Please note that although it is exceedingly difficult to talk about "the big C", it is much more demanding to speak out about the cause of the lung cancer: smoking tobacco products. Similarly, despite the challenges we have to speaking out loudly and clearly about the skyrocketing increase of absolute global human population numbers during my lifetime, it is much more difficult say anything about what might be causing global human population growth. Of course that brings us to human population dynamics. This is the last of the last taboos, I believe. The denial of the science of human population dynamics appears to me as one of the most colossal failures of nerve in human history. The abandonment of intellectual honesty and moral courage is unconscionable.

One day human population dynamics will become a topic of open discussion, that is certain. When that time comes, I trust it is not too late to make a difference in the lives of our children, who are probably going to be unimaginably victimized not only by our outrageous selfishness but also by our abject cowardice.

BREAKING NEWS: Sec. of Interior Ken Salazar announced Tuesday that the Gulf of Mexico drilling moratorium has been lifted.

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/2010/10/11/daily17.html

Cause for celebration in the GOM oil & gas patch, to be sure. I wouldn't wish any of those folks the economic hardship they have had to endure while Macondo got patched up (aside from BP, that is).

Not to sound overly cynical about it, but the timing (weeks ahead of mid-term elections) seems politically driven...

I think it was just a 6 month moratorium. Nothing conspiratorial with politics. I don't see how they'd gain from that anyway.

But if BP was responsible, then the moratorium would have been unnecessary. Hard to blame politics on an industry gone astray in my view.

I note the description of coal exporting countries as 'drug dealers'. Some of those countries hypocritically lecture the rest of the world on the need for carbon restraint. Maybe they should cut exports instead.

In Australia there will be an IPO for the formerly government owned Queensland Rail. The company is expected to make billions in profits from shipping coal. I guess that confirms there is no real intention to reduce coal use at home or sell less of it abroad. Stockbrokers warn of the 'risk' of a carbon tax but also predict long term demand. See http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/10/3034170.htm

Dave (grin), thanks for updates, wish I was there now. Say hi to DaveR from me. You know that DaveR and I visited UK MET office a few weeks ago and gave a couple of talks - as Dave says it was great fun, - they are really nice folks down there. This I think is one of Dave's most important slides.


Not sure what DaveR is claiming?
His additional recoverable looks wrong.
WEC comes up with about 2000 Gt of 'estimated additional amount in place' while additional recoverable reserves is all just where nations have reported such a catagory.

For example the USA has 242 Gt of coal proven and 445 Gt of additional resource in place but ZERO additional recoverable reserves, while Pakistan has 3.3 Gt of proven coal reserves,
65? Gt of additional resource and 40? Gt of additional recoverable reserves. China also has ZERO estimate of additional resource in place. Russia doesn't even report lignite resources.
http://www.worldenergy.org/documents/ser2007_final_online_version_1.pdf

Can coal carry the world BAU thru 2100 AD?
The export trade in coal is 941 million tons per year or 700 mtoe/yr.
The export trade in oil is 2100 mtoe/yr.
It is certainly possible for coal exports to make up for oil Btus in the next 50 years. Even Bangladesh is importing coal from Australia.

The world runs mainly on oil(36%) and gas(24%) with coal at 28%. 72% of the world GDP is in the EU-27,Canada
USA, Japan, China. This is the world as far as energy consumption goes and they will continue to produce emissions as long as the energy lasts. Many of these countries could run with much less oil than today. The US and Canada need the oil but can suppliment it with ethanol. They also possess huge unconventional oil resources inside their borders and it is only a matter of time before this is developed fully. The rest of the world will need to get by on whatever OPEC, Russia and Brazil can manage to get out of the ground.
The world hasn't woken up to Peak Oil yet, but when they do a huge rush will be on.

The world uses 10.5 Gtoe of fossil fuels per year.

Dave Rutledge is talking about a confusing combination of peak demand and peak supply.

The historic peaks he's looking at are peak demand, like the UK early in the 20th century, and possibly the US 15 years ago. Many reserve estimates have been reduced dramatically, due to lack of demand for coal, and therefore lower "economic" reserves.

For instance, in the US, 2009 coal consumption dropped by 9%. Now, overall electricity demand fell, but coal's market share dropped by 5%, given up to NG and wind.

China is the one country where one can see a plausible argument for peak coal within several decades, but good info on Chinese reserves seems lacking.

But Rutledge is citing World Energy Council figures for additional reserves which don't exist for the biggest producers though additional resources do.
The additional resources in place tally over 2000 G tons.
Plus overall world demand for coal is booming.
Reserves are about geology not the price of coal.
Besides coal is the cheapest fossil fuel.

His real purpose is to question the IPCC CO2 emissions scenarios. I see nothing standing in the way of emissions as large as we have now for the rest of the century.
For example the world emits 12 GtCO2 from coal, 11 GtCO2 from
oil and 6 GtCO2 from natural gas for a total of 10.5 Gtoe of energy.
If all that 29 GtCO2 were from coal it would only produce 9.6 Gtoe of primary energy; 29 x 29/41.8 x 2.1= 9.6 and since most coal is converted to electricity at 33% efficiency rather than oil to liquid fuels at 82% efficiency or gas at 80% efficiency then amount of useable output energy will be much lower.

It's impossible for the world to leave coal in the ground once oil and gas are exhausted at least with present technology.

Coal's market share dropped by 5% in the US last year, replaced by NG and wind.

There's no reason we can't replace 90% of coal generation with wind, solar and nuclear.

We could use CTL, but EREVs and EVs make more sense.

"The rise in fuel costs will change the paradigm for manufacturing. For while it is cheaper to makes steel in China and ship it when transport costs are low, as those prices rise the cost of shipping will become too high. The benefits of local manufacture will become more evident."

I would like to see someone defend this assertion with numbers. I've seen this over and over again here but never really justified. I don't believe it.

I can speak from experience while determining project capex and O&M during the 2008 rise in oil prices. If oil is the life blood of our economy, diesel fuel is the hemoglobin. Many heavy industries are sensitive to diesel fuel prices, especially extractive processes such as mining or forestry.

We we're working with a couple of copper mines and they we're very concerned about the rising cost of diesel fuel for their ore trucks and transportation knock-on effects (mainly fuel surplus fees). Worst yet, we we're trying to lock down a NPV for a bio-mass generation project and the big wild card screwing up the financial forecast was diesel powered transportation costs.

"Geez Bob, diesel is $1.30/litre now. What do you think it will be in 10 years and what will be the delivered cost per cubic metre of feedstock?" (pine beetle kill logging) ... crickets...

It was costing logging truck drivers 0.20/km to operate. Now that! is unsustainable.

But, one can also read Rubin's book and look at the input cost ratios for steel and the answer is quite evident. Transportation costs much more than labour per ton.

Interesting parallel to here in Tasmania. The logging industry wants to truck forestry waste to a wood fired power station. That is offcuts, stumps and trimmings that would otherwise be burned in situ before replanting. I'd guess specialised harvesters will be needed and there will be much longer road journeys by truck. There was talk of a new gravel road to get to the wood fired power station more directly.

Unknown cost issues include
- a possible carbon tax that could add 6c a litre to the cost of diesel
- a carbon credit for burning the wood for power instead of 'wasting' it
- possible extra NPK to cover loss of nutrients in the forest
- altered carbon absorption by the forest.

All of this needs careful analysis with opposing sides seeing only the good or bad. I suspect that developed countries will bring in a red diesel/green diesel system whereby primary industry (farming, forestry, mining) gets diesel cheaper than the public.

Thanks, guys. Those were good examples but I guess I should have been more specific. I was thinking about ocean transport for goods where the trade off was direct labor costs vs shipping costs. The numbers I worked up some years ago now indicated that the shipping cost, even for most commodities, was way less than 1% of the cost.

I agree than land transportation can have a big effect on decisions on whether or not a project is viable. The question for me was whether transportation costs affected the transfer of jobs from one continent to another. I still think not.

Obviously spot price variances on both diesel and the commodities themselves can swing the numbers on any given day, but ocean freight accounts for something like 15% of coal delivered price to a major port like ARA, and something like 10% for VLCCs moving crude. I think your 1% ocean transport for commodities is off by quite a bit, although it may be true for finished goods carrying more value add and container-shipped.

You may want to take a look at the website:

http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/efficiency

It lists the cost of transporting different products as follows:

"The cost to transport a bicycle from Thailand to the UK in a container is about US$10. The typical cost for shipping a DVD/CD player from Asia to Europe or the U.S. is roughly US$1.50; a kilogram of coffee just fifteen cents, and a can of beer - a penny."

The question is what are the associated labor costs for each of these products? It's hard to imagine they are much different than the shipping costs listed above. So when the fuel price doubles, manufacturing the product in a more local area becomes attractive. The manufacturer will pay more in labor, but will have lower transport costs.

In May of 2008, the World Shipping Council issued a statement on the impact of rising fuel costs, which is located at:

http://www.worldshipping.org/pdf/WSC_fuel_statement_final.pdf

From their own experience, rising fuel costs were adversely affecting trade.

So when the fuel price doubles, manufacturing the product in a more local area becomes attractive.

Yes, but only modestly. Roughly 55% of shipping cost is fuel http://www.worldshipping.org/pdf/WSC_fuel_statement_final.pdf . So, that DVD player requires about $.8 of fuel. If the price of fuel doubles, the cost of that DVD player only goes up by $.8 (at most - see below). If the DVD player costs $100, that's only a .8% increase. That's not going to play a dramatically large part in production decisions.

Furthermore, if the price of fuel doubles, shipping lines will do a lot of things to reduce their fuel consumption, so the effect will be much smaller.

From their own experience, rising fuel costs were adversely affecting trade.

Well, they said it was hurting the profitability of the industry - they didn't really address whether it was actually reducing trade volumes.

"Yes, but only modestly."

Well, that's not quite right. It may be modest for some customers, it may be light for others, and it may be burdensome for the remainder. The World Shipping Council made the point shipping costs are not evenly distributed over all shipments on all ships.

"Furthermore, if the price of fuel doubles, shipping lines will do a lot of things to reduce their fuel consumption, so the effect will be much smaller."

The primary action they can take is to reduce the speed of their ships to lower fuel consumption. Unfortunately, this has the result of increasing the time to market for a company's product, so the shipping companies actions are not without a cost to the customer.

"Well, they said it was hurting the profitability of the industry - they didn't really address whether it was actually reducing trade volumes."

As you will remember, the oil price in 12 months went from $75/bbl to $150/bbl by July 2008. Obviously, shipping companies have to make certain assumptions when they create their rates, including the future price of fuel. The Shipping Council makes it clear their fuel costs were uneconomic in May 2008 for many shipments and would eventually have to be passed on to their customers. And that, indeed, is what happened. Just look at ocean trade by the end of 2008.

costs are not evenly distributed

True.

The primary action they can take is to reduce the speed of their ships to lower fuel consumption.

That's true in the short term. Container shipping fuel efficiency rose 75% from 1976 to 2007, in an era of very low fuel costs. http://www.worldshipping.org/pdf/liner_shipping_carbon_emissions_policy_...

Did you read my discussion?
http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-shipping-survive-peak-oil.html

Unfortunately, this has the result of increasing the time to market for a company's product, so the shipping companies actions are not without a cost to the customer.

No question. For some products it doesn't even make sense, because the time value cost is too great.

Just look at ocean trade by the end of 2008.

Ocean trade crashed temporarily because of the bank panic: shipping customers couldn't get letters of credit, or their sales crashed, etc. Shipping costs weren't primary.

"Did you read my discussion?"

No, I didn't read your discussion, and I'm not the slightest bit interested in reading your discussion.

That's too bad - I've learned from your input. You might learn something too....

Can we replace oil for shipping?

Sure - long distance land shipping can go by electrified rail, local can go by plug-in hybrid truck, and water shipping can find substitutes for oil.

Substitutes for oil for water shipping? Pshaw, you say.

No, really. Substitutes include greater efficiency, wind, solar, battery power and renewably generated hydrogen.

Efficiency: Fuel consumption per mile is roughly the square of speed, so slowing down saves fuel: in 2008, with high fuel costs, most container shipping slowed down 20%, and reduced fuel consumption by roughly a third. For example, Kennebec Captain's ship carries 5,000 cars from Japan to Europe (12,000 miles) and burns 8.5 miles/ton of fuel at 18.5knots, for a total of about 1,400 tons of fuel. At a 10% lower speed of 16.6 kts, the ship burns 21% less fuel (about 300 tons).

Continued here

We could go back to coal steamers. Bleah.

Or . . . nuclear powered ships.

Still bargaining. Buy a farm.

Go ahead and read the rest of my article.

Nick, I will say pshaw to your hybrid truck. Did you read the specs of that -280kWh of lithium batteries! that is over a $100k battery pack, and this for a truck that gets 90 miles when driving loaded, and then needs a 6 hr recharge.
And then you have the expense of the electric drivetrain.

This is so expensive that no one, except governments, will be able to afford it.

The use of fuel for delivering of city goods is actually quite good economic value. Where stuff can go by train, sure but in a city that is not possible. simply converting a 7ton diesel truck to cng will give clean exhaust, operating costs similar to electricity, longer range, instant refueling, and will cost far less to implement. Add a hydraulic or flywheel energy recovery system and away you go.

That 7 ton truck, in original diesel form, will get about 5mpg in city driving. Add an energy recovery system and you'll get 10mpg, so it will use 9 gallons/day for the equivalent driving of the electric truck. That is $27/day or $7k/yr. The electric truck will have half that cost, or about $3k/r, so it will take 25yrs to pay off that battery pack, and of course the battery pack will last less than 10 yrs.

Meanwhile, the 280kWh of batteries could have powered 25 light duty electric cars, taking their city mileage from 30 to zero, saving about 30gal of gasoline per day, and having a chance of being an economic return.

Lets put our efforts into solutions that save the most oil, and are actually economic. All that this truck proves is that the idea is so expensive that no business can afford to do it.

And governments wasting tax dollars on it to "demonstrate" these things just means there is either less government money for productive projects, or we all pay more taxes, so we have less money for productive projects.

let's hope government is not subisidising this one. they would get far better value subsidising retrofits for cng and energy recovery systems.

The truck comes with a fast charger, which takes it to 80% charge in about 1 hour. The 6 hour charging time is for the remaining 20%. I imagine it might be fast charged during lunch, and slow charged overnight, giving a daily range of perhaps 145 miles ((72+90)*90% of max range).

The large battery pack doesn't seem consistent with 5MPG. 280kWh gives about 3.1 kWh/mile. With dense city driving you probably don't get more than 20% engine efficiency, which would give about 2.6MPG.

Have you seen good stats for MPG for very heavy trucks in dense urban driving?

Here's a breakeven cost analysis:

miles per day 145
days per year 330
MPG 2.60
gallons per year: 18,404
10 years: 184,038
Fuel cost $1.02
10 yr cost $187,551

battery cost premium: $100,000
10 yr amort: $142,378

pwer/day 248.9
cost/kWh $0.055
10 year cost $45,173

Net cost: $0

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add a hydraulic or flywheel energy recovery system and away you go. That 7 ton truck, in original diesel form, will get about 5mpg in city driving. Add an energy recovery system and you'll get 10mpg

Have you seen such a system in a commercial truck? That would be interesting....

I can imagine that a CNG truck would be competitive. Are there CNG commercial trucks?

Some of the Propane companies around here use LP fueled trucks. The drivers don't like them much.

Do you happen to know why not?

Power and torque. The guy that delivered my propane last winter was excited that he got one of their new diesels. He said that the propane trucks didn't pull hills as well. The drivers only were putting a 75% load on because they had to stay geared down more on the steep hills around here. He also said there were some maintenance issues. For power and torque, it's hard to beat a diesel.

I couldn't help but wonder what the range of one of those trucks was with a full load on board. 20,000+ miles on a fillup!

20,000 miles on a fillup????

IIRC the guy told me these trucks carry 5000 gals. fully loaded. I was using 4mpg (WAG) for mileage. They run off of the big tank (unlike diesel tankers).

Wow.

Well, yes, any fuel truck that uses all the fuel it carries, will have quite a range. be interesting to work out what is the range of a an electric truck with a load of lithium batteries!

Propane (or CNG) does lead to a de-rating of diesels, particularly non-turbo ones (this is also true for gasoline engines on cng/propane).
it is not an issue for cruisng, in fact it is an advantage. That is why the best systems, for vehicles, are gas co-fuelling, with the diesel pilot injection to ignite the mixture. The mix can then be varied from 80% gas at idle to 100% diesel at WOT.

That way you can always run 100% diesel if you run out of gas. if I owned a hwy trucking company, or a railroad, that is how I would do it.

the best systems, for vehicles, are gas co-fuelling

Do you happen to have an example in a link? I'd be curious to read more about it, and have an example to refer to.

Nick, it's just not that simple with this truck example.

Consider the 1hr charger. For an 80% charge of a 280kWh battery pack, in one hour, you are talking about a 224kW charger! That is one hell of a charger. It will need a decent sized pad mount transformer of its own. This will only be available at home base, not anywhere else, so the truck HAS to be back home at lunch.

3.1kWh/mile sounds right. Now, for diesel, we have 36.6 kWh/gal, so 11.8mpg at 100% efficiency, and we can use 25% of that, so we have 2.95mpg.

Not sure I agree with all your assumptions either;
330days/yr is 6.5/wk - how many delivery companies do that?
For the electricity, it is 145 miles x 3.1 = 450kwh/day.

You have the whole lot at night time rate, but (using the california example) the daytime rates, for EV's are 10c/kWh, so your average elec cost is (72*10+90*5.5)/162=7.5c/kWh, so the daily electricity cost is then $33.70.
That is then $111k over the ten years, for a total of $232k.

And, at the end of that ten years, the diesel can probably keep going, but the batteries will have had 330*2*10=6600 cycles, so they may not even make 10yrs.

If we assume 5day/wk operation, the economics favour diesel even more.

Overall, I just don't think heavy vehicles, on the the road, is a good application for pure EV. It is, however a GREAT application for a series hybrid, which then has unlimited range, and no charging downtime during the day. It could do double shift if needed.

Here's a write up about a city bus, 12 tons of it, powered by the engine from VW Jetta, in series hybrid formation;

http://www.mira.co.uk/Case_Studies/documents/ProjectChoiceHybridBus.pdf

The flywheel systems are actually used in utility electricity and electronics applications (UPS systems). They have several distinct advantages over batteries - "unlimited" cycle life and round trip efficiency of anywhere from 90 to 98% (I find 98% a bit hard to swallow, but 90 is easy), whereas batteries you get 80% roundtrip at best, and 70 or less in high current uses (which regen braking is.)
feed://cleantech.thepodcastnetwork.com/category/energy-efficiency/feed/
Flybridsystems.com
Vyconenergy.com

These are electric flywheels, but here is a "hydraulic" flywheel, in the subframe on a self propelled railcar;

The round part in the middle holds the 1/2 ton flywheel. The transmission is hydraulic, and the whole train car (12 tones, 50-60passengers) is powered by a 2L diesel engine from a Ford Fiesta!
Details here; www.parrypeoplemovers.com

Truck component maker Eaton has electric and pure hydraulic (not flywheel) systems in production;
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/Hybrid/SystemsOverview/in...

You can imagine the savings in garbage truck - all they do is start-stop, all day!

As for CNG, well, that brings us back to where we started. A CNG conversion of the 8 ton city truck might cost $20-40k, Assuming the truck base has NG, you can out in a "Phill" type fuelling station for overnight "charging", or do a more expensive one to store CNG, and allow for two minute refueling. I would only do that for multiple CNG trucks.

The CNG mileage will be a bit less than diesel, and the CNG cost will be less than half, maybe 1/4.

For a dedicated, city cycle, fleet based heavy vehicle, CNG is the cheapest option of all (though CNG series hybrid would be cheaper to operate) That is why some cities have bus fleets running entirely on CNG, like Bakersfield, Ca;
http://www.getbus.org/aboutget

Given the obvious advantages of series hybrids for heavy vehicles, and the elimination of charging downtime, you can see why I favour hybrids for heavily used heavy vehicles, and electric for lightly used light vehicles - that is where the respective systems are at their best.

Run the hybrids on cheap CNG and it's even better. if that VW Jetta engine can run a bus, then the CNG system from a Honda Civic GX, could run that engine, and that is a $10k system. Add larger tanks, and maybe it is a $15k, system - would pay for itself in the first year!

As I have said before, I think there is a place for EV's, But they can't replace everything. Judicious use of ICE's for heavy vehicles means we have enough money and batteries left over to do more EV's, or more series hybrids, and do them faster.

Thanks for the info - that's very helpful. I'll have to take a little time to go through everything you said, but I think it makes sense.

**EDIT

I'm wondering about the BTUs per gallon of diesel. The EIA says 138,690 at http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=about_energy_conversion_calc...

I changed the number of days to 5.5 per week. I originally meant to include 6, which would have been 312.

Power costs are hard to figure: industrial/commercial users pay much less than the average retail price, but they have demand charges (a primitive form of time-of-day pricing).

On MPG: I have a hard time seeing 25% efficiency in stop and go traffic. If we could track down real world numbers, that would help.

Here's an updated analysis:

miles (AM) 81.0
miles (post-lunch charge) 64.8
total miles per day 145.8
days per year 286
MPG 2.57
gallons per year: 16,216
10 years: 162,162
Fuel cost $1.43
Cost per day $81.20
10 yr cost $232,227

battery cost premium: $100,000
10 yr amort: $142,378

kWh/mile 3.1
pwer/day 453.6
cost/kWh-night (I/C) $0.037
cost/kWh-day (I/C+demand charges) $0.110
Cost per day $31
10 year cost $89,850

Net cost: $0

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The question of whether local trucks can be pure EV is a bit of a theoretical question, to reassure people who think that in 100 years, when oil production might be limited to to 5-10M bpd, that civilization won't be able to continue.

If you read my article1 mentioned above, you'll see that I agree that series hybrids (EREVs) are the logical path for vehicles, and that EREVs will dominate for a long time.

1 http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-everything-be-electrified.html

Nick,

Be careful with fuel energy contents - some are written in LHV and some are HHV. For engines, we normally work with LHV, for heating, where you might be able to use a condensing heat exchanger, you can use HHV.

Good examples here;
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

Agreed that EREV's make the most sense, for cars, anyway.
For a heavy truck, I am not sold on the EREV part - the major gain is the serial hybrid - if the vehicle is working all day, your overnight battery storage is used fairly quickly, and is taking away from payload capacity - an often overlooked point.
Make the vehicle as light as practical, and up your payload. This is particularly relevant for urban trucks.

It is interesting that so much action is happening, quietly, in the commercial trucking industry. Since these vehicles drive for a living, and fuel is a big deal, innovations will be economic there long before they are in cars - a good pointer of future trends, IMO.

For engines, we normally work with LHV, for heating, where you might be able to use a condensing heat exchanger, you can use HHV.

Interesting. I wonder if it's just a matter of convention. When people are converting between forms of energy, like the EIA, they seem to use the HHV.

if the vehicle is working all day, your overnight battery storage is used fairly quickly, and is taking away from payload capacity - an often overlooked point.

Yes, viability is one question, and optimality is another.

It is interesting that so much action is happening, quietly, in the commercial trucking industry.

Yes, it makes sense that things would happen faster on the commercial side. One factor: much larger economies of scale, both for fleets and for management attention.

Hi Dave, and please add my thanks to Gail's:

There's something really nice about personal notes, and I appreciate your summaries, which include things I'd probably never get to when the talks are posted (such as Bianca Jagger having followed the issue).

So, a couple of comments:

Re: Bianca Jagger’s talk:
"She spoke of the need for a new Copernican Revolution in the use of renewable technologies."

As of today, AFAIK, there is no "top level" analysis done by anyone that shows 1) Whether or not it is possible to create an all-electric
global (or local) industrial economy, i.e., one based on an electricity infrastructure, and, in addition, making use of renewables.

What are the points of dependency on LTFs and oil? (Maintain roads necessary for maintaining the grid, etc.).

2) If possible, what is required in terms of change-over: energy, oil use, time, cost?

The point is: to ramp up renewables, without *at the same time* addressing the "plummet problem" - (along the need for risk management, given we're more or less at "peak now") - is an essentially pointless endeavor, is it not?

It will leave new and unusable extraction technology artifacts, alongside all the rest of the obsolete LTF infrastructure.

Re:
"In the following question period the speakers pointed out that we should not expect the Administration to move until the point is reached where we really won’t have many choices left. But we have a greater capacity for change than the government gives us credit for."

The one idea I expected to catch on two years ago is the call for an immediate scientific investigation by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), link posted before on TOD is at www.oildepletion.wordpress.com for details.

This is relatively easy to do, as *any* State legislature could initiate it, as can *any* federal agency, and/or Congress - even as a rider on a bill.

It puts the burden of announcement on the NAS, rather than on politicians - at least this was a favorable argument that I haven't seen rebutted, really. Of course, some people think the NAS is also so politicized as to be completely corrupt, but if that's the case, then...(why hold a conference in DC?)

At the very least, the NAS weighing in - (especially with impacts and policy options) would give people information they need to make changes within their immediate power *and* call for changes that necessitate larger scale planning.

So, it seems to me very strange that this hasn't caught on...perhaps people are not aware of the NAS and/or their role. (I don't know.)
http://www.nationalacademies.org/

Thanks, again, Dave,

I'd like to comment on the central thesis of Robert Hirsch's presentation.

Why?

Because I have the view - (however "faith-based" it may be) - that Hirsch, et al, listens and considers feedback, when and if he/they see(s) it. I hope he will read this.

1) The "Good":

Hirsch, along with his collaborators, continues to make the effort to fulfill a role worthy of his credentials (and theirs, as well, of course).

I give him a lot of credit for his statement in his recent interview where he, in effect, named the imposition of an edict of silence.

Exclusive interview: Robert Hirsch
by Matthieu Auzanneau
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-09-16/exclusive-interview-rob...

"That was in 2006, under Bush administration. Has anything changed with the Obama administration ?

It has not changed. I have friends who simply won’t talk about it now. So I have to assume that they are receiving the same kind of instructions."

2) The "Iffy":

Michael Bendezela takes issue with a crucial chapter in Hirsch's book:
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-10-12/critique-chapter-xvii-n...

"Here is the crux of this whole, dismal chapter: (and he quotes Hirsch as follows):

[W]e believe that the impending decline in world oil production will impose hardships that could be catastrophic to human well-being. To effectively mitigate the enormous oil shortage problem while also trying to reduce world carbon dioxide emissions is impossible in our judgment."

Bendezela sums up his view as follows:

"My conclusion: I believe Hirsch, et al., are simply appalled by our prospects. My translation of Chapter XVII: "AGW can't be true; because if it is true, in this new regime of declining oil production, we're toast.""

Indeed.

So, this brings me to...

3) Dave's summary as follows:

"He reminded us that this is a liquid fuels problem, while most renewables (wind and solar and hydro) deal with the electricity supply, which is not helpful to the crisis. We also have enough food. The issue is in transportation where we need a substitute for oil."

I have a simple argument and a request.

Premise:
A: There is no substitute for oil.
B: If you can come up with a temporary LTF substitute, it, too, is finite in nature. (It also requires oil and FF to get LTF, yes?)
C: Either way, using oil now until "plummet" sets in for real, *or* finding an LTF substitute...(until double plummet)
D: What is the best use of the time/oil/substitute remaining and how do we go about analyzing this?

Or, to put it another way. You, Hirsch, et al, are in charge of the world. (Or, just the US.)

LTF substitutes only extend the overhanging cliff (at "best.") You must know this.

What is your approach?

And: Is there a role for objective analysis at all? Is there a role for science - at all? (Is there a role for (just one example) the NAS?)

I believe there is a way. I'd like to know what Hirsch and co. can come up with, starting with an assumption of "power" - (assume you can make changes you wish to see) - because this is a freeing assumption that allows for thinking.

And, I'd like to see them incorporate Bendezela's critique and issue a more thoughtful revision to this chapter.

And I'd like them to hear, in the critiques and feedback, what underlies it: The courage to face and share...the emotional capacity...the quality and capacity for emotional honesty...is rare and precious and something we all need to support each other in.

Can we replace oil in general?

People who are pessimistic about dealing with Peak Oil wonder: which processes happen to use oil today, because of historical accident, and which truly have to do so? What part of manufacturing, transportation etc, is specifically reliant only on oil?

We many things run on oil, can we possible replace oil in all of these applications?

The answer is yes, primarily through electrification of surface transportation and building heating. Aviation and long-haul trucking can be replaced with electric rail and water shipping, and aviation will transition to substitutes.

This will proceed through several phases. The first is greater efficiency. The second phase is hybrid liquid fuel-electric operation, where the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is dominant - examples include the Prius and, at a lower price point about $20K, the Honda Insight. The 3rd phase is hybrid liquid fuel-electric operation, where electric operation is dominant. Good examples here are diesel locomotives, and the Chevy Volt. The Volt will reduce fuel consumption by close to 90% over the average ICE light vehicle. This phase will last a very long time, with batteries and all-electric range getting larger, and fuel consumption falling.

The last phase is, of course, all electric vehicles, which are are slowly expanding, and being implemented widely (Here's the Tesla, here's the Nissan Leaf). Electric bicycles have been around for a long time, but they're getting better. China is pursuing plug-ins and EV's aggressively. Here's an OEM Ford Ranger EV Pickup, and a EREV light truck (F-150).

Continued here: http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-everything-be-electrified.html

Hi Nick,

Thanks. I like the question:

"We many things run on oil, can we possible replace oil in all of these applications?"

Then, it seems, there are paralell questions that require answers.

What is the infrastructure for this electricity-based system?

What is required to change from an LTF basis to an electricity basis for the infrastructure? Time, Cost, Energy Cost, labor.

What areas of economic activity must be eliminated in order to use the remaining oil to make this change?

Then, there is the intersection with the economy, and the apparent necessity for a steady-state economy, and a restoration of the natural environment and its maintenance in ways that can support some supportable human population.

What is the infrastructure for this electricity-based system?

It starts with our existing infrastructure. Hybrid electrics don't need anything new. The next step is EREVs like the Chevy Volt, which only need a plug in a garage or carport, which 80% of people in the US have. Finally, public charging points like those of Better Place will be needed. These are common in Canada, for instance, at public parking garages and parking meters for engine block heaters.

Time of day metering will also be very helpful. All US utilities now offer them (they're required to by the Energy Act of 2005), and installation is expanding.

What areas of economic activity must be eliminated in order to use the remaining oil to make this change?

Well, industrial/commercial consumption, like freight and manufacturing, will outbid personal transportation as necessary. Personal VMT might go down a bit, and people might be pushed by high fuel prices away from SUVs and towards smaller cars.

Can we replace oil in general?

Nick,

Perhaps that question can be broken down into finer slices:

1. Can we replace oil in ALL applications, and if not, in which applications can it not realistically be replaced?

2. Can we replace oil in SOME applications, and if yes, in which applications can it most easily be replaced?

Well, I think it's clear that there are no applications for which oil is essential. OTOH, there are some for which substitutes are rather more expensive, or rather less convenient, such as aviation and petrochemical feedstocks.

See http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-everything-be-electrified.html

Nick,

Didn't know you had your own blog: About my philosophy

Cool

About Global Warming: I fully agree with you.

After all, even if oil production rates enter the Permanent Petroleum Plummet Zone (the dreaded P-cubed Zone),

"We" will still have plenty of black carbon lung COAL to burn as part of our last gasp effort to keep smoking up the planet's outer fluidic layers.

It's well known that those addicted to smoking can't stop even after the nonoperable lung cancer diagnosis is made. And besides, why stop then? Might as well party on.

Yes, I'm afraid there's a good chance that we're going to burn way more coal than the planet can handle without going into some kind of positive feedback spiral.

OTOH, with a little luck those feedbacks won't kick in soon, and we'll ramp up wind and solar in time.

In 2009 US coal consumption fell by 9% - that's a real sign of progress.

US coal consumption fell by 9%

How does that relate to world-wide coal production and coal combustion?

(Sorry I don't know what sites to go to for looking it up quickly)

I would suspect that since the USA exported its manufacturing to offshore, the coal burning is simply going on in the new locations (i.e. China). Production of iron, steel, aluminum and cement probably consumes quite a bit of coal.

How does that relate to world-wide coal production and coal combustion?

That's an interesting question. I suspect that Europe's coal consumption is going down slightly; China's is growing sharply; and that it's a mixed bag elsewhere.

I would suspect that since the USA exported its manufacturing to offshore, the coal burning is simply going on in the new locations (i.e. China).

You're really asking about electricity production, which went down about 4% due to the recession. That did contribute to the decline in coal consumption. A bit of info on manufacturing: the US hasn't really outsourced all of it. US manufacturing output is 50% higher than it was 30 years ago (manufacturing employment has droppped dramatically due to rising labor productivity, but that's different). It dropped due to the recession, but is rising again.

OTOH, coal lost 5% market share to NG and wind power. In the past other sources of generation would have eaten the decline and coal would have stayed level, so we really are making progress.

I suspect that once Peak Oil makes itself more self-evident in the market, coal consumption will make a U-turn and start heading up.

The only way that could happen is if CTL were to grow quickly.

CTL has very strong economies of scale, so CTL plants are generally built in very large projects: $5B-10B.

Such projects are very risky, and won't go forward without strong, consistent, long-term government support: that's not likely outside China.
-----------------------
$1B for each 10,000 barrel per day plant.

From the FutureCoalFuels.org FAQ:
"How long would it take to construct a CTL plant? What is the cost?

CTL plants are costly to construct, about $1 billion dollars for a 10,000 barrel/day facility, and up to $6.5 billion or more for a world-scale 80,000 barrel/day plant with a five-seven year lead time."

http://www.futurecoalfuels.org/faq.asp#9

------------------------------------------------------

If governments want to push a replacement for oil, EREVs and EVs are the logical choice.

The only way that could happen is if ...

"Only" is a dangerous and often self-deluding word.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

And there is more than one way to combust a lump of coal.

Sure. "very likely" might be better.

What were you thinking of? Electrical generation? I don't think PO is going to increase electrical consumption fast enough to make a really big difference to our coal consumption.

It might though....let's hope that if electrical consumption grows more quickly we just build wind (and solar, nuclear, etc) power more quickly.

I'm thinking that as the infrastructure collapses,
we will probably go straight to coal-powered trucks and trains.

In other words, skip CTL and skip fleet electrification.

Coal-to-high-density Liquid Fuels conversion (CTL) might be reserved for the airline industry and the military.

Only the uber-rich will be able to afford to fly.

Civilians will simply have to make due with their lumps of coal --if they can get any.

I'm thinking that as the infrastructure collapses, we will probably go straight to coal-powered trucks and trains.

It would be far easier and cheaper to move truck freight to rail, reducing fuel consumption by 2/3. That shift has been happening for a while, with containerization and inter-modal shipping, and it will just accelerate.

It would be far, far easier and cheaper to electrify trains than to move them to coal. Most trains are already powered by electric motors - it's just a matter of adding to that.

"Historically economists have always said that when prices go up, then more oil will be released to the market, meeting demand (or substitutes will be found), and the price will fall. This time they were wrong."

Actually I believe that economic theory would also add an alternative phrase or concept - price might rise and less be used. Thus supply demand theory wouldn't necessarily be wrong. It is true that boosters and pundits often ignore the using less aspect. They also tend to ignore dieoff as an ultimate free narket mechanism in nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Hi All,

We are new here and came from investing side of things:

http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-and-how-to-invest-in-lithium-and.html

We are studying Peak Oil now and its implications for our way of life:

http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2010/10/peak-oil-is-theory-way-gravity-is.html

Help will be appreciated on the recent reports and studies about Peak Oil.

Will any presentations become availible from this conference?

Regards,

Sufiy.

Until the 2010 presentations become available, you can check out the 2009 presentations which are pretty current.

http://www.aspousa.org/2009proceedings/

Thank you!

When the 2010 presentations will be posted?

Regards,

Sufiy.

I don't know. You'll have to check the website occasionally. I would recommend the Robert Hirsch and Jeffrey Brown presentations from the 2009 conference.

All presentations that were provided to ASPO-USA will be available by 10/16/2010

Great! Are you going to create any DVD's of these?