Open Thread: On punishing ExxonMobil

Something to get you started on this Monday open thread. Tim Haab at Environmental Economics recently received a chain-letter email promoting a scheme to lower gas prices by boycotting ExxonMobil. As the reasoning goes, if consumers boycott ExxonMobil, they'll be forced to lower their prices, which will then force everyone else to play along. Haab wants to know—if consumers were actually to carry out the scheme—would it actually make EM lower their prices?* (Don't forget, Haab is an economist, and promises to give his opinion on the issue later this week.)

*I think we all get the naivete of this scheme, but discussing this sort of thing is up many TOD commenters' alley.

BP has 2nd pipeline break in Alaska

No word yet on how bad it is.

Sounds like the infrastructure's getting a bit creaky up there.

Ive heard of an enviromental concern over the pipelines built on frozen tundra.
the earth warms the tundra thaws and the pipeline footings shift. anyone else?
I distinctly recall specific design features to avoid this, such as one-way heat pipes built into support piers which boil ammonia in the depths and transfer heat to finned heat sinks during the winter cold, but pool the ammonia in the bottom whenever the top is warmer than the bottom.  This tends to keep the piers colder than the average permafrost around them.

I don't put much credence in your scenario.  Warming trends putting the system beyond its design parameters is all too credible, however.

I don't know how much credence I put into my scenario ether, it was just something I heard. but I can't even begin to wrap my head around yours.
one way heat pipes? finned heat sinks? some sort of captured ammonia system? we're talking half a million/ footing here easy.how many feet of pipeline/footing?technicaly I'm in so far over my head I'll just have to guess at one per 450'? is that close? do you or anyone else have an elevation drawing of these foot prints? my little contactor mind is putting together a picture here and I'm begining to see why anyone would be hesitant to build a gas pipeline from russia to china.
thanks for the reply
The most conventional method for dealing with "frost heaving" that one would encounter in ground that freezes and thaws annually is to build footings as deep as necessary to avoid this process. Cold climate construction almost always involves building on footings or piles that are below the frost line, the point of deth where annual soil freeze/thaw does not occur. It is possible this elaborate method is used to stabilise some pipeline footings but I'd bet that the great majority of pipeline footings are simply piles with footings set deep enough to be on bedrock or permafrost. I'd guess that costs for footings don't approach those for pipe and welding labour - especially these days. (anyone know better?) The latter presents major problems for pipeline stability if annual soil thaw begins to move deeper and deeper. These piles will need to be rebuilt even deeper (on bedrock or deeper frost). I can't imagine how expensive this could be. Then again, what is the cost of not being able to deliver fuel?
one way heat pipes? finned heat sinks? some sort of captured ammonia system? we're talking half a million/ footing here easy.

Actually, you're talking about a welded steel tube through the concrete pier (could be used as part of the reinforcing steel) which terminates in some sheet-metal fins, which might be steel or might be aluminum.  The tube has maybe a pound or two of anhydrous ammmonia in it (costs about 25¢/lb even at today's ridiculous prices), or you could use propane.  The "one way" effect is achieved by simple physics:  liquid pools at the bottom, while vapor condensing at the top runs down the sides (to make it run both ways you need a wick to get capillary action).  The finned heat sink at the top could be more steel (but requires rustproofing) or an aluminum extrusion (much less money in fabrication but pricier material).

You're talking more like a hundred bucks a footing, or a small multiple thereof.

ok I can visualize that, thanks
as far as the price I've poured alot of foundations in my time time and there expensive. with a better mental picture  I can see 1/2 a mill is way over the top. but I'm gonna charge $1000 a day just to show up. getting concrete to the site. well anyway when they talk about building these things they're tossing the words "billions of dollars" around like it doesn't mean anything. yet another thing I can't wrap my head around.
thanks again
Half of the 800 mile pipeline is above the ground. This was done to keep the warm oil (approximately 140 degrees Fahrenheit) from melting the frozen ground (known as permafrost). The pipeline is held up off the ground on a small platform supported by two 16-inch diameter vertical support pipes that are buried between 15 and 60 feet into the frozen ground.
These vertical support pipes are cooled by refrigerant coils which help to keep them from transmitting heat into the ground and consequently melting the frozen ground which supports the pipeline. These refrigerators, usually two and sometimes three in each vertical support, are completely passive; that is, they work automatically, requiring no power, whenever the surrounding air temperature is lower than the ground temperature.
"Specially designed vertical supports were placed in drilled holes or driven into the ground. In warm permafrost and other areas where heat might cause undesirable thawing, the supports contain two each, 2-inch pipes called "heat pipes," containing anhydrous ammonia, which vaporizes below ground, rises and condenses above-ground, removing ground heat whenever the ground temperature exceeds the temperature of the air. Heat is transferred through the walls of the heat pipes to aluminum radiators atop the pipes."

http://www.alyeska-pipe.com/Pipelinefacts/PipelineEngineering.html

Keep in mind that the pipeline was built with the ultimate in expediency in mind. The Aleyska Pipeline Consortium was more than willing to pay extra and sacrifice long term durability in exchange for immediate profits.  It had already been delayed for over 4 years by legal challenges, and the estimated 600 million barrels a day it would carry would more than make up for any shortcuts taken.  The fact that it has lasted this long is a testiment to luck and good quality construction on the part of those who braved the elements to assemble it.

this has to be the best site on the internet
Gotta love them gold prices.  So who believes in the secular bull theory and who thinks it's a cyclical bubble? Sell or hold, sell or hold (?) ...
I like Gold both as an inflationary hedge and an instability hedge. Gold is still way below it's inflation adjusted highs.
Peakguy,

My short term financial goal is to have a six months "emergency fund" in my savings account and a six-month "catastrophe fund" in physical gold and silver.

If the shit was to really hit the fan like total grid collapse, there would still be commerce/barter/trading and I suspect gold/silver coins and jewelery are as likely to be accepted as anything else. (Liquor, dope, cigarettes, ammo, and condoms other good items.)

Best,

Matt

I recommend Toilet Paper.  Hundreds of rolls of all qualities ;-)

Do you really think it would get that bad?

I got swept up in that feeling for a while, but I think "it" will be a fairly slow deepening depression.  I don't think we're heading for a cliff's edge just yet.

I still have a lot of toilet paper though!

No one - the cornucopians to the doomers knows how this will pan out - we could have slow crash, no crash at all or steep crash due to some unforseen disruption. If a nuke went off and rendered strait of hormuz oil unexportable, we would be looking at New Orleans nationwide in a matter of weeks.

Because no one knows, its best to diversify ones assets to have the largest % chance of having the largest impact with lowest risk. I have 5% of my assets in gold and silver coins, bullets and guns, and freeze dried food. Maybe its too much - maybe not enough-but lets me sleep at night. Some of my former wall street clients have over 100 million dollars in a broad array of investment accounts all over the planet - but they have ZERO real assets - many of them own gold, but only in the futures market or through some commodity trust - this is an example of diversification in one system, where owning hard assets and other investments is diversification BETWEEN systems.

Silver one ounce coins or bars will probably be best, as they can buy small things and are easily recognized. The things that give people immediate dopamine will also be in high demand - coffee, sugar, cocoa, alcohol, marijuana, opium, tobacco, etc.

And I must add that my biggest asset is the flexibility and health of my brain - it continually allows me to adjust to new information and plan accordingly - anyone who is wed to one pre-ordained view of how this will pan out is probably being too dogmatic. Other than things will probably be less pleasant and easy as they currently are.

Investment wise, this was a "peak oil" day in the markets - Gold up $18, Silver up .50c, oil and gas to new highs, stocks mkt selloff, us dollar down almost 2 euros, etc.  I continue to think that the major impact of peak oil will be a financial one - Im already talking to average people that are changing plans for summer and cutting back because gas is so high. I am short alot of stocks, like RTH - the retail stock ETF. I dont know how the economy will withstand the new credit card rules, softening of real estate mkt and higher gas prices.

Tangentially, wealth is A/D ==> assets over desires. one can increase wealth by increasing assets or decreasing desires or both. Most 'desires' come from evolutionary impulses for novelty and relative fitness. In essence, we like things that are novel and new because our ancestors that found extra food and new things tended to outproduce and have more resources for their offspring. Today, when the energy leverage of the planet is so high, our universe of 'expected rewards' is nearly infinite. If we have 2 houses, we think we need 3. If we have too much missionary style sex, we need doggie style - if we eat too much mac and cheese, we crave sushi. In a world of declining energy resources, the 'novelty availability' grabbag will be much smaller. Those who recognize this, and understand neuroscience a bit should be able to reduce the disparity between expected and unexpected reward and be happier with simpler things, that can be had with or without oil.

In sum, diverisfication exists in traditional markets, in hard assets, as well as in the neural framework of what makes us happy and satisfied as humans.

Excellent post! I count my main wealth as good relationships with friends, relatives and neighbors, then my practical skills and physical health, and only last do I count my stockpiles of food, water, garden seeds, wood, tools, etc.

A box of 2500 pennies costs only $25.00, and I think pennies will hold their value--while not providing undue incentive for others to challenge my proficiency with weapons in an attempt to steal loot in the form of precious metals.

Gold is a magnet for thieves, thugs, bandits, and marauders of all varieties. Look what happened to those who hid gold in their homes thirty years ago in Lebanon . . . not pretty.

Don,

Good point about the pennies. You can always cash them in if there in rolls. (I did that when I was a kid.)

Regarding physical health: addressing that is perhaps the only guaranteed investment.

Best,

Matt

But pennies are $60/gallon. (not that much more than the gasoline) To store $10,000 you'd need 4 42-gallon barrels each worth $2,520/bbl. So, storing pennies to store "liquid" wealth, you may as well store REAL liquid assets - like drinkable ethanol or for that matter, an underground tank of gasoline. Storing quarters would be a better choice. At $800/gal you can store a lot more wealth in a small space but avoid tempting thugs with the severe money density of gold. A gallon of quarters weighs 40 pounds, comparable to a car battery. Quarters are $33,600/bbl and that barrel will weigh a LOT.

Though I may be first to visualise pennies and wealth like barrels of the black fuel, I wasn't first to visualise huge volumes of them. Try Google and type in "megapenny project" to see pennies in cubic feet instead of our familiar barrels and gallons.

How would a loss of food security affect people's view of coins or gold or silver?  There seems to be an assumption that if oil and gas become scarce that there would still be business as usual as long as you have money.  I think collecting coins or gold or silver is a very optomistic thing to do.
Gasoline may be a bad choice; it has a limited shelf life by itself, perhaps even with stabilizers added.  Petroleum diesel is just as bad if not worse, as it can support microbial growths.

If you have the equipment to make ethanol (or methanol from destructive distillation of wood wood? I looked but I couldn't find anything about yield) you can manufacture fuel.  If it's too heavy to steal, you've got few worries there.

Ethanol equipment isn't a bad idea. For best results, make sure your still runs on solar heat. That way, you improve the ERoEI of the booze fuel. Destructive distillation of wood takes a higher temp than a liquor still does. Try concentrating the solar power to make methanol from wood. The byproduct is the charcoal to be used as "coal".

A solar liquor still should end up being easy, look at solar water distillers for ideas! Destructive distilling of wood takes solar concentration and a glass container to hold the wood and not give it access to air.

Also, what did happen to the Lebanese people who had hid gold? I did a few moments of googling but came up with nothing.

Best,

Matt

Those suspected of having hidden gold were visited by Bad People With Guns (BPWG) who tortured, dismembered alive, and then killed one family member after another until the Head of Houshold revealed location of gold.

Of course, if you don't tell after they kill your wife and kids, then they know you must have a Huge Humongous Lot of Gold (HHLG), and then they start in on physically persuading you.

You could look at this as wealth distribution after TSHTF.

Similar horror stories came out of Russia during the infamous "gold purge." See A. Solzhenitsyn for more on Soviet horrors re gold.

Oh yes, I've always liked pennies. And I still have some silver dimes that I won from Las Vegas slot machines back on Labor Day weekend 1964. I like dimes better than dollar coins because they are smaller. Cutting up a disc or bar is inconvenient.  

Oh yes, I've always liked pennies

Sailorman

Surely you are saying this only to keep all the pennies and this delicious scam to yourself.

(For the low, low price of ~$4250, you can buy 425,000 pennies which, when melted, will yield 1000kg of pretty decent copper which you can then sell back to the mint for over $6300).

Can you say "zinc"?  You'l be mighty disappointed when you find out what's really in those pennies!
Canadian pennies prior to 1997 were approximately 98% copper and 1.75 % zinc. From 1997 to 2001, Canadian pennies were modified and were minted as copper-coated zinc wafers. A recent scanning electron microscopic examination of a 2001 Canadian penny indicated approximately 96 % zinc. Today's one-cent coin, modified in 2001, should be made of copper-plated steel (94% steel, 1.5% nickel, 4.5% copper). So, a pre-1997 Canadian penny (aside from being illegal to smash in Canada) should give you a decent result after elongating.
http://www.pennycollector.com/faq.html

First you Yanks came for the cheap pharma.  Now it'll be the pre-'97 pennies.  What's next?  Oil?  Water?  

Thanks - we'll have it all. <sarcasm>
The meek will finally inherit the earth, as everyone else hoarding gold, ammo, food, seeds and wood will be rounded up and put into concentration camps.
I think it' a getty quote
the meek will inherate the earth but not the mineral rites
loot in the form of precious metals.

Modern pennies will only be worthwhile if the EngineerPoet's "lets have a zinc energy cycle" idea gains traction.

Older pennies are slowly becomming scare.  (you know, an actual copper penny)

"If we have too much missionary style sex, we need doggie style"
My my, what would Pat Robertson say?

Subkommander Dred

Apparently he'd not have much problem with it.
Dizzysaurus,

Eventually, yeah it probably will get that bad.  Hopefully not in the next 5 years as I'm totally unprepared for the Mad Max phase of the collapse of America. The 1970s oil shock phase I'd likely beneift from, I could get creative and get though a 1930s depression phase, but beyond that at this point my ass is toast given my current skill set and geographic location.

But having both an emergency fund and a catastrophe fund assuages my anxiety a bit. And the catastrophe fund has appreciated quite a bit which if I wanted to I could liquidate and use however I see fit.

Best,

Matt

Matt,

Do you have a mortgage? I've got a small one, but I started buying gold a couple of years ago on the theory I'd hold it in reserve to appreciate and pay off the rest of my mortgage if things get "difficult." Luckily I also have a paid-for small farm of 120 acres.

Harpers Magazine, which just came in the mail today, has an amazing article about the housing bubble that's about to crash. "It's called, "THE NEW ROAD TO SERFDOM, an illustrated guide to the coming real estate crash."

The cover has some poor guy lugging trudging into the future with a giant McMansion strapped to his back.

120 Acres? Thats hardly small in most locals.  Unless it is super arid or real lousy soil, I'd say you're well ahead of the curve.  Consider yourself lucky.
It's an old family farm with very rich soil. Always farmed organically. Raises Angus cattle now, but I'm thinking of diversifying into permaculture gardens and woodlot/wildlife habitat.

I'm picking wild asparagus and dandelion salad greens now, and the apricots and cherry blossoms are out. Very beautiful way to live, if you don't care about shopping malls, etc.

 

what's your growing season ( Imean typicaly? you know before global warming. I'm now a feckin twenty days late. very wet here in nor cal. all the best to you)
No mortgage, no debt, and no spawn plus in good health. All things considered, that's not too bad. Like I said up top, current financial goal is six months in cash savings and six months in PMs. I also want six months in supplies but have some storage issues given the size of my apartment. I'm also trying to figure out a way to take time off or reduce the time invested in my site so I can start to pick up some hands-on skills.

Yeah, I knew about the Harpers but they don't have it up on their site yet. Sounds like a cool looking cover.

Best,

Matt

The other thing I'm going to start doing is buying some oil - that's right, the new Oil ETF fund is now trading under ticker USO. Here's a good article about why oil (aside from our peak oil reasons) is a good move for most portfolios.
Just be careful with commodity based ETFs like this or DBC. The nature of "rolling forward" the futures they use can eat up alot of gains. Not the case with hard asset based ones such at GLD or the upcoming silver etf.

You should seriously look into how they hold assets. It's not as if they are simply buying and stockpiling physical crude.